Astral & Ethereal: it's kinda janky isn't it?

[Silva]

I know the basic of it: Astral is the plane of the mind where mystics and mages project their consciousness into, and functions as the pathway to the afterlife of mortals (Outer planes). Ethereal is the plane of "possibilities" and pocket dimensions, that exists between the material and the elemental planes.

The problem comes next: it's described that physic matter can enter the Astral through portals or a "plane shift" spell (WUT? Isn't it the plane of the mind?), and that ghosts and spirits actually live in the Ethereal (WUT? Isn't it a plane of inanimate matter and possibilities?).

So if I'm playing a shaman or other religious role in a animist community... where I go to to commune with my spirit totem/guiding spirit/dreamquest? The Astral or the Ethereal?

Honestly, it all sounds pretty badly put together to me. From all astral planes I've seen in games (Shadowrun's astral, WoD Umbra, Unknown Armies' Statosphere, Glorantha spirit world, etc) this feels like the most janky of them all.

So please, if anyone can, enlighten me or sell me on the idea.

[Man_Over_Game]

Found some relevant information for you that's specific to 5e:

What's the difference between the Astral Plane and the Ethereal Plane? (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/122009/whats-the-difference-between-the-astral-plane-and-the-ethereal-plane)

And for some insight that's NOT specific to 5e, but contains information up to it:

Defining Realms, Worlds, Kingdoms, Planes, Dimensions and the Multiverse (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/119208/defining-realms-worlds-kingdoms-planes-dimensions-and-the-multiverse?rq=1)

[Scarytincan]

While to some degree the Astral is the plane of the mind, it's primary identity I feel is that it's a transitive plane connecting the outer planes (heavens, hells, abyss, limbo, etc) to each other and the inner planes, kind of like a sea between islands or outer space between planets.

For the ethereal in addition to being the transitive plane connecting the inner planes (elemental planes, feywild, shadowfell, prime material) to each other and the Astral plane, it is pretty classically tied to ghosts and their like throughout pretty much every edition to my knowledge.

[Millstone85]

I know the basic of it: Astral is the plane of the mind where mystics and mages project their consciousness into, and functions as the pathway to the afterlife of mortals (Outer planes). Ethereal is the plane of "possibilities" and pocket dimensions, that exists between the material and the elemental planes.I wasn't aware of the "possibilities" interpretation.

Mine is that the Astral is the "Plane of Psychic" and the Ethereal is the "Plane of Force".


The problem comes next: it's described that physic matter can enter the Astral through portals or a "plane shift" spell (WUT? Isn't it the plane of the mind?), and that ghosts and spirits actually live in the Ethereal (WUT? Isn't it a plane of inanimate matter and possibilities?).The Astral is a plane, not just a virtual space, so yes matter can enter it.

As for ghosts, I believe the idea is that they are stuck between this world and the next, but closer to this world. That's better represented by the Ethereal than by the Astral.


So if I'm playing a shaman or other religious role in a animist community... where I go to to commune with my spirit totem/guiding spirit/dreamquest? The Astral or the Ethereal?I would say it is important for a druidic/shamanic spirit world to be one with the Material, and not another plane as D&D conceives those. So I would go with a shared subconscious or a different perception of the world.

[Man_Over_Game]

Summarized from the two references I posted, the Ethereal and Astral planes are effectively massive seas.

The Ethereal is much more relevant, much more central. It's quantifiable, and traversable. Ghosts inhabit this location so that they can manipulate things.

The Astral Plane is much larger, and much more encompassing. In terms of size difference, the Ethereal is a solar system, and the Astral is a galaxy. Spirits who are out this far are likely already bonded to a God, and is living out their afterlife on one of the far planes where the deities live, far on the outskirts of the Astral Plane.

The Ethereal is what most players should be interested in, as the Astral Plane probably doesn't have much, and isn't worth visiting in many circumstances.


Or, put even more simply, the universe is a blob of matter surrounded by a blob of thought.
Ethereal, and everything inside it, represents the Matter portion.
Astral, and everything it encompasses, is the Thought portion.
Ghosts, adventurers, and other things like to manipulate Matter, and most relevant places utilize Matter, so they stick with the Ethereal. Every object is its own balance of thought, matter, elements, and alignments that is all self sustaining, which allows you to travel to the Astral Plane and not be dissolved into a blob of pure thought, or the Ethereal Plane and not be an inert object.

[Unoriginal]

I know the basic of it: Astral is the plane of the mind where mystics and mages project their consciousness into, and functions as the pathway to the afterlife of mortals (Outer planes). Ethereal is the plane of "possibilities" and pocket dimensions, that exists between the material and the elemental planes. The problem comes next: it's described that physic matter can enter the Astral through portals or a "plane shift" spell (WUT? Isn't it the plane of the mind?), and that ghosts and spirits actually live in the Ethereal (WUT? Isn't it a plane of inanimate matter and possibilities?).

Your informations are incorrect.

The Astral Plane is not literally a Plane inside the minds of people, it's a Plane where the mind has influence.

While the Astral is a plane affected by thoughts, it is possible to travel through there by projecting your mind, and is a place souls travels through to reach the correct afterlife, it is also a place you can exist physically in, and many mortals and creatures do so.

Essentially, the Astral is a realm of existence in-between most of the other planes, that you can use as a way to connect parts of the Wheel. Because of this, the souls of those who have died journey through it. But it does contains matter and living beings, even warring factions and notable cities.

This is the Ethereal Plane:


The Ethereal Plane is a misty, fog-bound dimension. Its "shores," called the Border Ethereal, overlap the Material Plane and the Inner Planes, so that every location on those planes has a corresponding location on the Ethereal Plane.


There is nothing about pocket dimensions or "possibilities", nor inanimate matter. In fact there is no real matter there. The Border Ethereal just happens to, as its name indicates, border and englobe both the Material Plane and the Inner Planes. Ghosts exist in the Ethereal because they're stuck there through curses or uncommon circumstances, unable to go where they're supposed to, while actual spiritual beings like gods or angels or demons don't live there.



So if I'm playing a shaman or other religious role in a animist community... where I go to to commune with my spirit totem/guiding spirit/dreamquest? The Astral or the Ethereal?

Most likely you'd go to the Feywild. Where spirits of nature dwell.

EDIT:

That is, if you have to go to another plane at all. Like pointed out above, spirits of that type can exist in the Material Plane and interact with you there. For example, the spirit of a tree is in the tree.



Honestly, it all sounds pretty badly put together to me.

Because your informations are incorrect.



From all astral planes I've seen in games (Shadowrun's astral, WoD Umbra, Unknown Armies' Statosphere, Glorantha spirit world, etc) this feels like the most janky of them all.

You're bringing expectations about what the astral should be that the game doesn't have.

[Silva]

Well, the Astral Plane has a real world history (google "Wikipedia Astral Plane", its a nice article).

...which is more or less followed (closely) by the other RPGs Ive cited. D&D apparently isn't the case, because it confounds the concept between two distinct planes, Astral and Ethereal. That's the source of my confusion, I think.

Anyway, interesting readings posted. I'll digest it and post impressions later. Thanks, folks.

P.S: I have a nice collection of Planescape books here, I think it's the source of the description of the Ethereal as a "plane of infinite possibilities", but I'd have to check.

[Man_Over_Game]

Well, the Astral Plane has a real world history (google "Wikipedia Astral Plane", its a nice article).

...which is more or less followed (closely) by the other RPGs Ive cited. D&D apparently isn't the case, because it confounds the concept between two distinct planes, Astral and Ethereal. That's the source of my confusion, I think.

Anyway, interesting readings posted. I'll digest it and post impressions later. Thanks, folks.

P.S: I have a nice collection of Planescape books here, I think it's the source of the description of the Ethereal as a "plane of infinite possibilities", but I'd have to check.

If I remember correctly, the primary location of the Planescape books, Sigil, is located at the "Summit" of the Outer Planes, basically the top of the Astral Plane.

[Millstone85]

If I remember correctly, the primary location of the Planescape books, Sigil, is located at the "Summit" of the Outer Planes, basically the top of the Astral Plane.Sigil floats above the Spire, a needle-shaped mountain at the center of the discworld that is the Outlands, the plane of true neutrality.

Weirdly, 5e excludes the Outlands from the Outer Planes.

[Unoriginal]

Weirdly, 5e excludes the Outlands from the Outer Planes.

it's not really weird, it's the center of the Outer Planes.

You can't really be at the center if you are on the "outer" part.

[Millstone85]

it's not really weird, it's the center of the Outer Planes.

You can't really be at the center if you are on the "outer" part.Well, yeah. But then, the Outlands still manages to be at the center of the Outer Planes without being at the center of the Inner Planes. Which makes the whole inner/outer naming pretty doubtful.

[Asmotherion]

If it can help, I'll give you how I picture it.

The Ethereal is basically like a "Glove" paralel to the Prime Material, but invisible to it. It connects the other planes Paralel to it (Shadowfell/Faywild) and the Elemental Planes.

The Astral Plane is like a "network" or "wavelenghth" of energy were all the planes exist, in a single universe. It is like a theoretical field of possibilities, you can attune to and "exist" in or out of by an act of thought (and spell).

[Tanarii]

The purpose of the ethereal is to be the frame of absolute reference underlying material space. It's why the material plane doesn't experience relativity.

[Silva]

Well, yeah. But then, the Outlands still manages to be at the center of the Outer Planes without being at the center of the Inner Planes. Which makes the whole inner/outer naming pretty doubtful.
I think the positioning is relative to the material plane. Inner = elements/building blocks/molecules of the universe, Outer = afterlife/souls destinations. I think a better term would be Lower (matter) vs Upper (mind) planes. But the devs probably had already used those labels to describe the hells and heavens by that point.


If it can help, I'll give you how I picture it.

The Ethereal is basically like a "Glove" paralel to the Prime Material, but invisible to it. It connects the other planes Paralel to it (Shadowfell/Faywild) and the Elemental Planes.

The Astral Plane is like a "network" or "wavelenghth" of energy were all the planes exist, in a single universe. It is like a theoretical field of possibilities, you can attune to and "exist" in or out of by an act of thought (and spell).
This sounds good. Thanks for the help.


The purpose of the ethereal is to be the frame of absolute reference underlying material space. It's why the material plane doesn't experience relativity.
Care to elaborate? I don't think I get the relativity vs absolute reference.

[Psikerlord]

Yeah it's janky. I prefer one transition astral plane, and etheral is just being ghost like, no separate plane for it.

[Silva]

Okay, after reading you boys & girls ideas, and crossing with my Planescape material, I think I got it. Please criticise this:

The Ethereal is simply the plane of matter. It's foggy, permeates the material, and works as a primordial soup of sorts linking it to the atoms and molecules of the universe (= the elemental planes). It's called "plane of boundless possibilities" because powerful magicians can shape this primordial soup into pocket dimensions and new demiplanes, or those can appear spontaneously.

The error of my reasoning was thinking this meant only inanimate matter. It does not, since there's a plane of life (Positive energy plane) and even one of Ooze, and various entities here are described as having "ectoplasm", which I had completely forgotten. So it's coherent to exist ghosts and haunting spirits here, since those are assumed to be like mindless shells of their previous existence. And without minds, it wouldn't make sense for them to inhabit the Astral.

As per the Astral, it's like what I said previously. The books say it is the plane of the mind, the space between planes, and that It's "infinitesimal" instead of infinite, so there's no space nor time here. I like to picture it like the Backstage from American Gods. The problem is when you enter it with you physical body, which breaks that "infinitesimal" argument.... BUT given that Planeshift spells are meant to be really rare and high-level, I think it won't bother me that someone eventually found a way to transfer matter into this "infinitesimal space" or something, like a technological breakthrough hehe.

[Silva]

Oh, and I think I've also found the answer to my shamanist/spirit talker character concept:

A shaman doing a dream journey to commune with his totem spirit actually goes to the Astral, and from there to the corresponding Outer Plane his spirit resides. As per the Astral Projection spell description, once the Shaman exits the Astral through a portal to an outer plane, it's astral form transmogriphies into a solid form according to that plane available matter (while keeping his silver cord). So, if the plane in question is Arborea, my shaman may assume the form of an animal, a plant, etc.

This has some very cool implications: first, it allows for the awesome image of my shaman assuming the form of an eagle flying side by side with his great eagle totem spirit in the skies of that outer plane. And second, it allows a shaman to help a party in the outer planes remotely through his astral projection, while his material body is asleep somewhere comfy in the material plane. By the rules, if his projected body is damage and reaches HP 0, it simply vanishes and the Shaman wakes up in the "real world". That's really awesome and reminds me of a hacker remotely helping out a team as seen in cyberpunk games.

About talking to ghosts, the Shaman would do it simlply by interacting with the Ethereal, where spirits reside. So some sort of spell for reaching into the Ethereal is also useful. My only question would be the nature spirits that supposedly reside in the very material plane instead of the Ethereal. This is the kind of thing that would work better in the Astral if this one also permeated the material plane like the Ethereal do, but instead housed nature spirits and other manifestations of abstract ideals and concepts. But I'm digressing.

TL;DR: Communing with your totem spirit = Astral & Outer Planes. Talking with ghosts in the material = Ethereal.

[Millstone85]

My personal take on the cosmology would be a mix between the Great Wheel, World Tree and World Axis models.

There is the Astral Sea, the Plane Above. Within it are the 17 Dominions, organized as a wheel with the Outlands at the center. Some are known as the Celestial Planes and others as the Fiendish Planes.

There is the Deep Ethereal, the Plane Below. Within it are the 11 Expanses, organized as a wheel with the Material and its echoes at the center. Each expanse is also overlapped by its own ethereal shore.


The error of my reasoning was thinking this meant only inanimate matter. It does not, since there's a plane of life (Positive energy plane) and even one of Ooze, and various entities here are described as having "ectoplasm", which I had completely forgotten.Note that, in 5e, the Energy Planes are no longer considered to be among the Inner Planes. They have in a sense been replaced by the Feywild and the Shadowfell, while also existing as their own separate thing.


So it's coherent to exist ghosts and haunting spirits here, since those are assumed to be like mindless shells of their previous existence. And without minds, it wouldn't make sense for them to inhabit the Astral.5e ghosts are of average intelligence and can talk.

[Unoriginal]

The Ethereal is simply the plane of matter. It's foggy, permeates the material, and works as a primordial soup of sorts linking it to the atoms and molecules of the universe (= the elemental planes).

No, it's the contrary. The Ethereal is the plane of immateriality. There is not primordial soup of matter here, there is no native matter.



It's called "plane of boundless possibilities" because powerful magicians can shape this primordial soup into pocket dimensions and new demiplanes, or those can appear spontaneously.

It's not called that in 5e, and no, magicians cannot do that.

If someone is creating demiplanes or pocket dimensions, they're most likely modifying the Astral Plane. Powerful planar rulers could shape their own planes with more demiplanes or pocket dimensions, but most people don't have that kind of power.


So it's coherent to exist ghosts and haunting spirits here, since those are assumed to be like mindless shells of their previous existence. And without minds, it wouldn't make sense for them to inhabit the Astral.

Ghosts and the like aren't always mindless. They exist in the Ethereal Plane as an anomaly where they should have just passed on to the afterlife.



As per the Astral, it's like what I said previously. The books say it is the plane of the mind, the space between planes, and that It's "infinitesimal" instead of infinite, so there's no space nor time here.

No, there is space. Plenty of it, actually.



I like to picture it like the Backstage from American Gods. The problem is when you enter it with you physical body, which breaks that "infinitesimal" argument.... BUT given that Planeshift spells are meant to be really rare and high-level, I think it won't bother me that someone eventually found a way to transfer matter into this "infinitesimal space" or something, like a technological breakthrough hehe.

There is plenty of matter in the Astral Plane, even without people planeshifting.

I don't see where you've read the "infinitesimal" thing, but it's probably not canon for 5e.



Oh, and I think I've also found the answer to my shamanist/spirit talker character concept:

A shaman doing a dream journey to commune with his totem spirit actually goes to the Astral, and from there to the corresponding Outer Plane his spirit resides.

Many nature spirits who have contact with people on the Material Plane are on the Material Plane or the Feywild. Otherwise there are spells and rituals which allow you to contact beings in the Outer Planes, or those beings can contact you themselves, but that doesn't involve the Astral.

Your Eagle Totem Spirit could just decide to make you have a dream journey, or your could request them to do so.

In game term, an Arboreal Eagle totem would probably be the Patron of a Celestial Warlock.




About talking to ghosts, the Shaman would do it simlply by interacting with the Ethereal, where spirits reside.

Only a small subset of Undead reside there.



My only question would be the nature spirits that supposedly reside in the very material plane instead of the Ethereal. This is the kind of thing that would work better in the Astral if this one also permeated the material plane like the Ethereal do, but instead housed nature spirits and other manifestations of abstract ideals and concepts.

No, because the Astral isn't the domain of nature spirits and have nothing to do with it, and neither do other manifestations of abstract ideals and concepts.



TL;DR: Communing with your totem spirit = Astral & Outer Planes. Talking with ghosts in the material = Ethereal.


Communing with your totem spirit = most likely the Material Plane. Talking with ghosts in the Material Plane = Material Plane.

If you go to the Ethereal Plane to handle ghosts, it's just to force them to interact with you. Seeing in the Ethereal is useful for dealing with ghosts while you're in the Material Plane, though.

[JackPhoenix]

Astral Projection is level 9 spell. One available only to clerics, warlocks and wizards.

Just sayin'

It's easier to visit Astral Plane physically through Plane Shift, which is something all full casters except bards can do with level 7 spell. There's also Contact Other Plane, if you just want to talk, then we're talking about level 5 spell, but only wizards and warlocks have that one.

[dejarnjc]

Astral Projection is level 9 spell. One available only to clerics, warlocks and wizards.

Just sayin'

It's easier to visit Astral Plane physically through Plane Shift, which is something all full casters except bards can do with level 7 spell. There's also Contact Other Plane, if you just want to talk, then we're talking about level 5 spell, but only wizards and warlocks have that one.

Planeshift requires a metal tuning rod attuned to the Astral Plane though so it's pretty DM dependent on getting there.

[Scarytincan]

Long story short, you seem to have some either outdated and/or preconceived notions of these planes that you are trying to apply to the game that don't line up with official lore/understanding/etc. That's not to say you are having bad wrong fun, if you are the DM feel free to make the planes as you wish, it's just not how things are laid out in 'official'

[Silva]

Yeah, I think that may be the case @Scarytincan .


While to some degree the Astral is the plane of the mind, it's primary identity I feel is that it's a transitive plane connecting the outer planes (heavens, hells, abyss, limbo, etc) to each other and the inner planes, kind of like a sea between islands or outer space between planets.

For the ethereal in addition to being the transitive plane connecting the inner planes (elemental planes, feywild, shadowfell, prime material) to each other and the Astral plane, it is pretty classically tied to ghosts and their like throughout pretty much every edition to my knowledge.
The Astral and Ethereal don't touch each other, at least not in 2E Planescape Great Wheel cosmology. Which begs the question: what happens to a ghost that supposedly found peace and now wants to move on to the next stage of the cosmological cycle, the Outer Planes? Since the Ethereal and Astral don't touch each other, it seems impossible.

Do those planes touch each other in 5E cosmology?

[Unoriginal]

The Astral and Ethereal don't touch each other, at least not in 2E Planescape Great Wheel cosmology. Which begs the question: what happens to a ghost that supposedly found peace and now wants to move on to the next stage of the cosmological cycle, the Outer Planes? Since the Ethereal and Astral don't touch each other, it seems impossible.

Do those planes touch each other in 5E cosmology?

They do touch each other. Even if they didn't, Ghosts exist simultanously in the Ethereal and the Material, which is connected to the Astral.

There's nothing impossible about the Ghost going from "being stuck in the Ethereal" to "leaving the Ethereal" . It just would take one more step if Astral and Ethereal weren't touching (possibly manifesting by the ghost appearing more corporal for a fletting instant, before disappearing).

[Scarytincan]

In the Astral plane there are 'color pools' that are portals that lead to all the outer planes, the material plane, and the ethereal plane with each plane having a corresponding color. The 'deep ethereal' has similar color curtains to the inner planes, Astral, and I'm pretty sure prime material. So I would assume when one dies their spirit goes to the ethereal, and from there things get fuzzy for me because the raven queen (godess of the dead) is in the shadowfell and I feel like things go through there at some point, at least sometimes?

That or otherwise from ethereal to Astral to the corresponding outer plane for their eternal rest...

Tldr; yes Astral /ethereal connect in 5e

[Unoriginal]

So I would assume when one dies their spirit goes to the ethereal, and from there things get fuzzy for me because the raven queen (godess of the dead) is in the shadowfell and I feel like things go through there at some point, at least sometimes?

When someone die, normaly their souls go to the Outer Planes via the Astral, but sometime something go wrong and they get stuck in the Ethereal (only to go to the Outer Planes via the Astral if they get un-stuck).

The Raven Queen isn't an actual goddess in 5e. She's a powerful being who sometime sends her ravens to pluck mortal souls during their journey and drag them to the Shadowfell.

Needless to say, it's rarely a good news, and most gods don't like that one bit.

There are also other ways for souls to end up in the Shadowfell, but nearly all of them are anomalies or instances where a being dies there and is stuck in the plane.

[Silva]

No, it's the contrary. The Ethereal is the plane of immateriality. There is not primordial soup of matter here, there is no native matter.

It's not called that in 5e, and no, magicians cannot do that (create demiplanes).
So it changed in 5e, because here is what 2e's Guide to the Ethereal says:



This book details e Ethereal Plane, a churning realm of possibility and reality that contains a filmy “planar
soup” connectin various prime worlds. Sometimes called the Misty Shore or the Waveless Sea, the Ethereal also connects worlds and demiplanes to the Inner Planes, infinite arenas of elemental fury. In addition, the plane houses disparate and strange demiplanes.

See, if the Inner Planes hold all the elemental building blocks of the multiverse, the Deep Ethereal holds all the potentiality of the rnultiverse. “Existence Becoming” is what the Godsmen often call the Deep Ethereal.

A blood can't envision the Ethereal without fogs and mists springing to mind. That's because these vapors are the medium of the Ethereal. The fogs are everywhere and hold or border upon the Inner Planes, fledgling demiplanes, and the fully evolved Prime Material Plane. In a way, the Ethereal Plane is the cauldron that holds or borders all physical reality (as opposed to the philosophical reality of the Astral and Outer Planes). However, the Ethereal Plane is more than just a container-it's a propagator. The Ethereal is in some ways like a murky pool, laden with dissolved elements. A ripple on its surface is sometimes enough to cause a blob of solid ether to "crystallize," possibly forming a seed for demiplane growth. It's the mists and fogs themselves that are the visual signs of the dissolved elements constantly streaming forth from the Inner Planes.

One could view the mists of the Ethereal as potential matter, unresolved but full of possibilies. This is because ethereal vapors are made up of tendrils each with the potential of Earth, Air, Fire, Water, and mixtures of elemental material (from the Para- and Quasielemental planes). Thus, all “matter” on the Ethereal Plane is gaslike and flush with possibility. When the waves of potential reality collide, they form
solid ether and demiplanes. Many graybeards ultimately agree that the Prime Material Plane formed in just this fashion so long ago that a body can’t even count years to measure it.
So in 2E it is the "primordial soup" of matter I cited, only in gaseous form. Which opposes the Astral & Outer planes and their mind-abstract-philosophical qualities.




Ghosts and the like aren't always mindless. They exist in the Ethereal Plane as an anomaly where they should have just passed on to the afterlife.
Interesting.


No, there is space. Plenty of it, actually.

There is plenty of matter in the Astral Plane, even without people planeshifting.

I don't see where you've read the "infinitesimal" thing, but it's probably not canon for 5e.
2E Guide to the Astral plane:



The Astral Plane holds a unique place in the multiverse. A place solely of the mind, everything there is a construct of the mind, composed only of mental energy.

A body must remember that the Astral doesn’t really have any space of its own, so “touching” is a relative term. Perhaps it’d be better to say that the infinitesimal space of the Astral exists between all things on the Prime and Outer Planes. But every berk knows where the Astral is and what it connects, right? It’s the interplanar highway between all the Outer Planes. But why? Why does it “lie” where it does? Why can’t a body use it to get to the Inner Planes, for example? Well, that’s simple. The Inner Planes embody physical reality. They’re not concepts - they’re the building blocks of reality. There’s no room for the Astd among such dense stuff. No connection exists to the mental realm. The Astral links the mortals to the concepts that shape their consciousness, not to the fundamental elements that make up their worlds.

It seems part of my problem then (or all of it) is the change between editions. Though in practical terms perhaps it's not so radical a change as conceptually.

What 5E book have detailed descriptions for the Astral and Ethereal planes?

[Unoriginal]

They changed a lot through the editions, yeah. It helps a lot to look 5e lore without any assumption, otherwise it quickly become headache-inducing.

[Silva]

They do touch each other. Even if they didn't, Ghosts exist simultanously in the Ethereal and the Material, which is connected to the Astral.

There's nothing impossible about the Ghost going from "being stuck in the Ethereal" to "leaving the Ethereal" . It just would take one more step if Astral and Ethereal weren't touching (possibly manifesting by the ghost appearing more corporal for a fletting instant, before disappearing).

In the Astral plane there are 'color pools' that are portals that lead to all the outer planes, the material plane, and the ethereal plane with each plane having a corresponding color. The 'deep ethereal' has similar color curtains to the inner planes, Astral, and I'm pretty sure prime material. So I would assume when one dies their spirit goes to the ethereal, and from there things get fuzzy for me because the raven queen (godess of the dead) is in the shadowfell and I feel like things go through there at some point, at least sometimes?

That or otherwise from ethereal to Astral to the corresponding outer plane for their eternal rest...

Tldr; yes Astral /ethereal connect in 5e
Hmm that clarifies things. So in 5E, a ghost simply follows it's way (as those planes touch), while in 2E the ghost phases to the material, and then to Astral to follow it's way.

Thanks!

[Unoriginal]

Well I suppose so. The most interest I had for 5e Planescape was its stunning artworks.

[Scarytincan]

Dungeon masters guide has most of it now. There's a little more scattered around like a bit of the feywild and shadowfell in mordenkainen's, but ya dmg is what you wanna look at for most updated Astral ethereal. As to the soup of creation, I think that mostly falls to the elemental chaos that encompasses the elemental planes. The 'further out' you go in those inner planes, the more intense things get, initially based on the elemental plane you are in, and then out to where all the elements are just a huge chaotic 'soup' of elements that the prime material is formed from

[Silva]

Yeah, the Elemental Chaos sounds like the new primordial soup in 5e.

By the way, is there a Shaman class in 5E (or any edition really) and does it gain advantages of some kind for astral/outer plane projections?

[JackPhoenix]

There's shaman in 4e (but I won't tell you anything about that mess) and spirit shaman in 3.5. The later is basically druid with sorcerer-type casting and with wildshape replaced by abilities about interacting with spirits (fey, elementals, incorporeal undead, IIRC). No special planar interactions.

[Unoriginal]

Yeah, the Elemental Chaos sounds like the new primordial soup in 5e.

By the way, is there a Shaman class in 5E (or any edition really) and does it gain advantages of some kind for astral/outer plane projections?

There is no Shaman class in 5e. If you want someone who explicitly can be linked to nature spirits as one of the default options, there is the Druid, he Ranger (at least some of them), the Totem Barbarian, the Fey or Celestial Warlock, and the Paladin of the Ancient.

Don't think any are really tied to astral or outer plane projection. The Horizon Walker Ranger can find planar portals, though.

[Millstone85]

In the Astral plane there are 'color pools' that are portals that lead to all the outer planes, the material plane, and the ethereal plane with each plane having a corresponding color. The 'deep ethereal' has similar color curtains to the inner planes, Astral, and I'm pretty sure prime material.Here is a simplified version of the DMG's tables.

Astral Color Pools


d20
plane


01-16
Outer Planes


17
The Outlands


18
Ethereal Plane


19-20
Material Plane


Ethereal Curtains


d8
border ethereal


01
Material Plane


02
Shadowfell


03
Feywild


04-07
Elemental Planes


08
Elemental Chaos


An ethereal curtain can not send you to the border ethereal of the Astral, since there is no such thing.

An ether cyclone, on the other hand, has a 1 in 20 chance to hurl you into the Astral Plane.


So I would assume when one dies their spirit goes to the ethereal, and from there things get fuzzy for me because the raven queen (godess of the dead) is in the shadowfell and I feel like things go through there at some point, at least sometimes?
The Raven Queen isn't an actual goddess in 5e. She's a powerful being who sometime sends her ravens to pluck mortal souls during their journey and drag them to the Shadowfell.Unoriginal is right. But oh boy, did I prefer the Shadowfell when it was the "legitimate" antechamber of the afterlife.

[jdolch]

Well, the Astral Plane has a real world history (google "Wikipedia Astral Plane", its a nice article).

...which is more or less followed (closely) by the other RPGs Ive cited. D&D apparently isn't the case, because it confounds the concept between two distinct planes, Astral and Ethereal. That's the source of my confusion, I think.

Anyway, interesting readings posted. I'll digest it and post impressions later. Thanks, folks.

P.S: I have a nice collection of Planescape books here, I think it's the source of the description of the Ethereal as a "plane of infinite possibilities", but I'd have to check.

In real life Hermetics you have Physical - Astral - Mental from lowest Energy Vibration to highest. The closest "real life" equivalent for the D&D Astral Realm would be the Mental Realm in Hermetics. Not sure how much the D&D Ethereal Realm coincides with the Hermetic Astral Realm. IIRC Hermetics doesn't have distinct realms for Elements and if they do then they are on the Mental Plane.

If you want to know more about Hermetics, see "Franz Bardon - Initiation into Hermetics" it has chapters on the different planes. (Warning: This is not a theoretical Text. It's a real life How-To Guide to become a Magician. And not the David Copperfield kind either. Don't blame me if you fall down a rabbit hole)

[Tanarii]

There is no Shaman class in 5e. If you want someone who explicitly can be linked to nature spirits as one of the default options, there is the Druid,
I thought the 5e Druid class blurb made it explicitly clear that it includes shamans?

Edit: OP, google Luminous Aether. I believe its even the original source concept for the Ether

[Scarytincan]

Yeah, the Elemental Chaos sounds like the new primordial soup in 5e.

By the way, is there a Shaman class in 5E (or any edition really) and does it gain advantages of some kind for astral/outer plane projections?

You could take a look at the shepherd and dreams subclasses of druid. Dreams is pretty tied to the feywild, and shepherd interacts with nature spirits. Or as noted, horizon walker ranger is probably one of the most planar tied subclasses, tho more warrior less Shaman. Most Shaman of the martial types tho maybe?

[Millstone85]

Yeah, the Elemental Chaos sounds like the new primordial soup in 5e.Various interviews, tweets and published materials have been teasing the return of Spelljammer.

So after the Ethereal and the Elemental Chaos, another candidate for "primordial soup" would be the Phlogiston.

The Phlogiston is a rainbow ocean that fills most of the Material, with worlds like Krynn, Oerth and Toril, along with their respective suns and neighboring planets, existing inside crystal spheres with names such as Krynnspace, Greyspace and Realmspace.

[Mith]

So my take on 5e comology is like this:

The Astral Plane is the base plane of existence which is influenced by Will. The Inner and Outer Planes are manifestations and self reinforcing definitions of Natural and Moral Law. For example, he regions of the Nine Hells all show what you get when you a specific aspect of LE philosophy complete dominion. I would say this is relatively comparable to OOTS in a sense.

The Material Plane is the place where all the influences of the other planes come into balance. The "Inner Planes" have a stronger latent connection, and therefore are defined as closer.

The Ethereal is the "mists" that forms from planar interactions above the Planes. It's the lost bits of willpower that hasn't settled to be absorbed by the plane, but will eventually clear. I would say that all ghosts fade eventually, but they take a long time to do it, and are a drain on the latent will of the Plane. I would probably put all Undead in this category. They are healed by Positive energy because they consume it, and harmed by Negative energy as it pulls their food out of their stomach so to speak.

Planar experts speculate that enough restless undead on a plane will drain the Planer will enough, it would cause the plane to collapse into Oblivion. No one has ever tested the theory, although Orcus is pretty convinced that it would work.