Evocator: Burning Hands vs Thunderwave

[Dark Schneider]

Once you get sculpt spells, which one you think is better?

- Burning Hands: a bit more damage. DEX save. Ignintes objetcs. 15-foot cone. d6.
- Thunderwave: CON save (so no Evasion skill or cover). If fail save pushed 10 feet. 15-foot cube (wider than cone). d8 (scales better) Make much (much) noise.

[Arkhios]

In comparison, both have their benefits and downsides, and come out as equal in my opinion.

Burning Hands deals slightly more damage, but its area is smaller and the damage type is Fire, one of the more commonly resisted damage types.

Thunderwave deals slightly less damage, but its area is bigger and the damage type is Thunder, which is very rarely resisted damage type.

Disregarding damage types, Thunderwave has the benefit of having utility purposes, especially with sculpt spells, because you can push enemies away from your allies without dealing damage to your allies or pushing them. That alone might actually make Thunderwave (slightly) better than Burning Hands, but on the other hand, more damage is more damage.

[Dark Schneider]

I added another point I forgot, Thunderwave scales better, as it uses d8 instead d6. Also combines better with the Fireball that much probably the caster will get. So if you encounter with creatures immune to fire, you could upgrade Thunderwave and make 4d8 at lvl 3.

Thunderwave main problem is when stealth is a concern, you can't use it, because the noise will spread to much more range than the combat noise itself. If stealth is not a concern, I give my cent for Thunerwave, I think is better at all, simply reducing base damage from 10.5 to 9, not much really. Can also be used to push against cliffs :) or free an ally from a grapple.

[Draken]

A few points of note:

- Evoker.
- You are not very likely to encounter fire immune creatures at the levels in which 1st level damaging aoe spells will be worthwhile (magmins and mephits are all that comes to mind).
- Monsters tend to have better Con saves than Dex saves. Evasion is almost nonexistent in monsters.

The other points regarding utility and average damage are fine. Just remember you should probably look for a suitable 2nd level spell rather than upcasting a 1st. Flaming Sphere, Phantasmal Force, Scorching Ray and Shatter being the core four.

[Dark Schneider]

Sure the best thing is getting the corresponding lvl spells. But unfortunately prepared spells are so limited at low levels, so if you want to be a mixed caster (attack, protect and support) upgrading base spells is a great option, and then use those 2nd lvl spells for others, like protection or support ones.

[Draken]

That's a valid concern.

I think I would probably favor Thunderwave for its utility over Burning Hands anyway. Not that either would be my first choice for a 'damaging' spell at level 1 (that is Sleep).

[darknite]

I like Thunderwave a bit more because it also tosses foes away from the caster on a failed save.

[ImproperJustice]

I’m not a ran of either due to having to get so close.

I think Ice Knife is a little more handy at that level personally.

But if you have to choose between those two, Burning Hands is slightly better for the reasons alredy given.

[xroads]

The noise issue of Thunderwave depends a lot on your DM.

With my DM, anytime a player used Thunderwave, the whole dungeon woke up and started making their way to our locale. So there was usually no real point to getting the spell.

Then again, we had multiple Leroy Jenkins in the party. So probably a moot point. :smallwink:

With Burning Hands, fire resistance is an issue. But not every foe has it (especially at low levels). And you always have other evocations you can use. Even if it's a cantrip like Acid Splash or Ray of Frost.

[Dark Schneider]

That's a valid concern.

I think I would probably favor Thunderwave for its utility over Burning Hands anyway. Not that either would be my first choice for a 'damaging' spell at level 1 (that is Sleep).
In fact, a damage spell then sleep is a good combo. Once you deplete foes HPs, nullify some of them even without a save roll. Making them lose some precious turns with only a lvl 1 spell is great. So do not underestimate sleep even at higher levels. If DM describes the foes as very hurt, try a sleep, even upgrading it is not a waste at all if at least one or more foes goes to sleep.


I’m not a ran of either due to having to get so close.

I think Ice Knife is a little more handy at that level personally.

But if you have to choose between those two, Burning Hands is slightly better for the reasons alredy given.
Thunderwave combines very well with Expeditious Retreat. Because that I mentioned the option of upgrading the spells. With Thunderwave you can:
- Open area: Expeditious Retreat (lvl 1), that gives you much movement tactic advantage, when possible, move to foes, Thunderwave (even upgraded to lvl 2 if want to preserve lvl 1 slots), and retreat.
- Closed area: Thunderwave (lvl 1), Mirror Image (lvl 2).
So with only 3 spells you can face well multiple situations, and save some prepared spells for other purposes. And also some like ER and MI are good for other things (MI is always useful).

I like much the upgrading spells option in this edition. Combined with prepared spells instead memorized, it gives much versatility to casters, and IMO are much fun to play them, as it introduces a strong tactics even at spell selection and combination.

[jiriku]

Sculpted thunderwave is significantly more useful than sculpted burning hands.

The AoE on burning hands is so small that friendly fire is often not a concern. Even when it is, sculpting only eliminates the friendly fire. It offers no additional utility. The ability to push foes away from allies and the potential to push foes into a dangerous area without doing the same to nearby allies is enormously useful. Even creatures that are resistant or immune to thunder damage can still be pushed.

[Vekon]

Thunderwave is the better pick every time. The difference in damage does not even come close to the control benefit of thunderwave.