Ataboiiwhynot
2018-11-14, 09:34 AM
What do you think of a linear spell point system that lets you cast level spells equal to the amount of points spent. How would you go about designing this?
jiriku
2018-11-14, 10:23 AM
If you go down that path, I'd specifically recommend a non-linear system. Spells in D&D do not follow a linear power progression. You can do more damage with a meteor swarm than with three fireballs, for example, and you can travel further with one teleport than with two dimension doors. I have used spell points systems with D&D in the past, and if the progression is linear the result is always that casters end up hoarding their spell points to cast multiples of their highest-level spells, which emphasizes the power difference between full-casting and non-full-casting classes.
I'd recommend that the cost of spell level increases be linear (for example, casting fireball in a higher-level slot does result in a linear power progression), but that the cost of casting a genuinely higher-level spell should follow a geometric progression. Finding the right progression will not be trivial.
Composer99
2018-11-14, 10:44 AM
Looking at D&D 5e, let's compare:
Level
Spell Slots
Spell Points
(Normal)
Spell Points
(Variant)
1st
2
4
2
2nd
3
6
3
3rd
4/2
12
8
4th
4/3
15
10
5th
4/3/2
25
16
6th
4/3/3
30
19
7th
4/3/3/1
36
23
8th
4/3/3/2
42
27
9th
4/3/3/3/1
55
36
10th
4/3/3/3/2
62
41
11th
4/3/3/3/2/1
71
47
12th
4/3/3/3/2/1
71
47
13th
4/3/3/3/2/1/1
81
54
14th
4/3/3/3/2/1/1
81
54
15th
4/3/3/3/2/1/1/1
92
62
16th
4/3/3/3/2/1/1/1
92
62
17th
4/3/3/3/2/1/1/1/1
105
71
18th
4/3/3/3/3/1/1/1/1
112
76
19th
4/3/3/3/3/2/1/1/1
121
82
20th
4/3/3/3/3/2/2/1/1
131
89
Assuming the same restriction on casting spells of 6th level or higher when using points when using slots [1], and assuming one will take advantage of these to always cast the highest level spells possible, we get the following table showing which spells you can cast. ("PCL" spell points means "point cost = spell level")
Level
DMG Spell Points
PCL Spell Points
1st
2 1st-level spells
2 1st-level spells
2nd
3 1st-level spells
3 1st-level spells
3rd
4 2nd-level spells
4 2nd-level spells
4th
5 2nd-level spells
5 2nd-level spells
5th
5 3rd-level spells
5 3rd-level spells,
1 1st-level spell
6th
6 3rd-level spells
6 3rd-level spells,
1 1st-level spell
7th
6 4th-level spells
5 4th-level spells,
1 3rd-level spell
8th
7 4th-level spells
6 4th-level spells,
1 3rd-level spell
9th
7 5th-level spells,
1 4th-level spell
7 5th-level spells,
1 1st-level spell
10th
8 5th-level spells,
1 4th-level spell
8 5th-level spells,
1 1st-level spell
11th
1 6th-level spell,
8 5th-level spells,
1 4th-level spell
1 6th-level spell,
8 5th-level spells,
1 1st-level spell
12th
1 6th-level spell,
8 5th-level spells,
1 4th-level spell
1 6th-level spell,
8 5th-level spells,
1 1st-level spell
13th
1 7th-level spell,
1 6th-level spell,
8 5th-level spells,
1 4th-level spell
1 7th-level spell,
1 6th-level spell,
8 5th-level spells,
1 1st-level spell
14th
1 7th-level spell,
1 6th-level spell,
8 5th-level spells,
1 4th-level spell
1 7th-level spell,
1 6th-level spell,
8 5th-level spells,
1 1st-level spell
15th
1 8th-level spell,
1 7th-level spell,
1 6th-level spell,
8 5th-level spells,
1 4th-level spell
1 8th-level spell,
1 7th-level spell,
1 6th-level spell,
8 5th-level spells,
1 1st-level spell
16th
1 8th-level spell,
1 7th-level spell,
1 6th-level spell,
8 5th-level spells,
1 4th-level spell
1 8th-level spell,
1 7th-level spell,
1 6th-level spell,
8 5th-level spells,
1 1st-level spell
17th
1 9th-level spell,
1 8th-level spell,
1 7th-level spell,
1 6th-level spell,
8 5th-level spells,
1 4th-level spell
1 9th-level spell,
1 8th-level spell,
1 7th-level spell,
1 6th-level spell,
8 5th-level spells,
1 1st-level spell
18th
1 9th-level spell,
1 8th-level spell,
1 7th-level spell,
1 6th-level spell,
9 5th-level spells,
1 4th-level spell
1 9th-level spell,
1 8th-level spell,
1 7th-level spell,
1 6th-level spell,
9 5th-level spells,
1 1st-level spell
19th
1 9th-level spell,
1 8th-level spell,
1 7th-level spell,
2 6th-level spells,
9 5th-level spells,
1 4th-level spell
1 9th-level spell,
1 8th-level spell,
1 7th-level spell,
2 6th-level spells,
9 5th-level spells,
1 1st-level spell
20th
1 9th-level spell,
1 8th-level spell,
2 7th-level spells,
2 6th-level spells,
9 5th-level spells,
1 4th-level spell
1 9th-level spell,
1 8th-level spell,
2 7th-level spells,
2 6th-level spells,
9 5th-level spells,
1 1st-level spell
Summary:
Both systems are the same from 1st through 4th level.
At 5th-6th level, both systems allow you to cast the same number of max-level spells, but PCL lets you cast one additional 1st-level spell.
At 7th-8th level, both systems allow you to cast the same number of spells total, but with DMG spell points they are all 4th-level spells, and with PCL one of them is a 3rd-level spell.
From levels 9 through 20, in both systems you cast the same number of 5th+ level spells spells, but you can cast an additional 4th-level spell with DMG spell points and an additional 1st-level spell with PCL spell points.
All that's to say that having spell point cost equal spell level isn't going to break the game, unless you think that handing out that much access to max-level spell slots each level is bad in the first place. Since that's basically where warlocks are at in regular 5e, I would say that's not the case.
I suspect the reason Wizards doesn't use "PCL" spell points is so that sorcerers must use the same resource to track metamagic use as they do creating "bonus" spell slots, without having either fractional point costs or requiring all metamagic to cost the same as a 1st-level spell slot.
[1] If memory serves, using the spell point variant in the DMG you can only cast one spell of 6th-level and higher even at 19th and 20th level when you would get extra spell slots of those levels. But if I were implementing spell points I'd alter that rule.
nonsi
2018-11-14, 11:55 AM
.
Though not 5e, this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18777377&postcount=4) has a Spell Points approach that works (2nd spoiler).
It's not perfect (no spellpoints approach is), but it's functional.
If you go for the approach that cantrips are available all day long, you can adjust the spell costs from 0 to 17 instead of 1 to 19 and gain a bit more daily output.
If you want to emphasize quadratic power increase (especially for the high-level spells), you can go for the Fibonacci sequence approach (0, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55) and end up with ~ 250-300 spellpoints/mana at level 20.
(btw, I did notice that it's not exactly Fibonacci :smallwink:)
The result will be similar for the high-level spells, but you'll be able to spam a lot more on low level spells. I mean, A LOT MORE (7 5th level spells for every 9th level spell).
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