Help with 6th level spell selection

[dnd2016]

11lvl lore bard here. Cant decide between mass suggestion or ottos for my first 6th level pick.

1 F.fire, D.wispers, thunderwave
2 blindness(might swap out), suggestion
3 fear, H.pattern, conjure animals, counterspell
4 G.invis, polymorph, G.steed, enemies abound
5 hold monster, B.hand
Wand of web

Any advice on picks and what to possibly swap out? Party: fighter,druid,pally,sorceror,ranger...I usually stay in the back

Thanks

[jiriku]

Definitely mass suggestion. Multiple uses, multiple targets, long duration, non concentration. By contrast, otto's affects one target for a short duration, requires concentration, and permits a save every round. And it's not even that great of a debuff for a 6th level slot.

For your swap, I suspect that you'd hit more targets and expose yourself to less risk using shatter instead of thunderwave as your area damage spell. Shatter has longer range, affects a larger area, makes less noise, and has utility against breakable objects.

[Specter]

I'd take both and swap Thunderwave. At this point it's pretty much useless.

[dnd2016]

Definitely mass suggestion. Multiple uses, multiple targets, long duration, non concentration. By contrast, otto's affects one target for a short duration, requires concentration, and permits a save every round. And it's not even that great of a debuff for a 6th level slot.

For your swap, I suspect that you'd hit more targets and expose yourself to less risk using shatter instead of thunderwave as your area damage spell. Shatter has longer range, affects a larger area, makes less noise, and has utility against breakable objects.
Yes I do love the non concentration and multiple uses of it. But also like Otto's no save at first and then save as an action, getting you possibly two rounds of free attacks on a bbeg. The only reason I kept thunderwave was for the knock back affect. Was considering swapping blindness for major image for its many uses and permanent illusion at six level slot

[Scarytincan]

Could also look at eventually swapping out fear or hypnotic, as those two spells kinda overlap a lot in use and you have a lot of wis save spells. I prefer to keep HP personally between the two but ymmv

[jiriku]

Yes I do love the non concentration and multiple uses of it. But also like Otto's no save at first and then save as an action, getting you possibly two rounds of free attacks on a bbeg. The only reason I kept thunderwave was for the knock back affect. Was considering swapping blindness for major image for its many uses and permanent illusion at six level slot

Take a moment to compare otto's to the web spell in your wand.


Restrained (from web)
Creature cannot move
Creature has disadvantage on Dexterity Saving Throws
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature’s Attack rolls have disadvantage.
Spend action to make Strength check against spell save DC to escape.


Otto's
Creature cannot move
Creature has disadvantage on Dexterity Saving Throws
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature’s Attack rolls have disadvantage.
Spend action to make Wisdom save against spell save DC to end spell.

Otto's irresistable dance is essentially a single-target web spell with one round of guaranteed benefits -- cast from a slot four levels higher. That's a pretty steep price for 1 round.

[Specter]

Take a moment to compare otto's to the web spell in your wand.

Otto's irresistable dance is essentially a single-target web spell with one round of guaranteed benefits -- cast from a slot four levels higher. That's a pretty steep price for 1 round.

Otto not only requires an action to try to escape the spell, but most importantly, it has no initial save - meaning its only restriction are creatures that can't be charmed. It's the biggest debuff you could want, especially against creatures with legendary resistance. I in particular love it when a villain wastes their entire turn to try to break free and fail their save. It is a very glorious spell.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Mass Suggestion is vastly superior, for the reasons stated above.

I'd swap Thunderwave for Tasha's Hideous Laughter. I don't know what sort of BBG's you're generally fighting, but swapping Blindness for Heat Metal might be a good call if you run into many heavily armored humanoid types.

[jiriku]

Otto not only requires an action to try to escape the spell, but most importantly, it has no initial save

I'm not sure where you're going with this. I agree exactly with what you said here -- with otto's you pay +4 spell levels for 1 round of guaranteed effect and become unable to affect multiple targets. The debuff is otherwise near-identical to web. Although really it's not as good because with web you can push a foe back into the webbing and entrap him again after he escapes, or at least sap his movement with difficult terrain, but with otto's once the spell is broken it's just gone.

For my money, if you really want to blow a 6th level slot restraining one guy and web won't cut it, use infernal calling to summon a barbed devil or chain devil, then tell it to grapple. It will try every round to restrain, it deals damage on a success, the enemy has to spend actions to try to get out, and if your foe decides to kill the devil that's yet more actions spent hurting a summoned monster that you don't have to heal. Otto's has more point-and-shoot simplicity, but the actual effect is very weak considering how expensive 6th level slots are.

[Specter]

I'm not sure where you're going with this. I agree exactly with what you said here -- with otto's you pay +4 spell levels for 1 round of guaranteed effect and become unable to affect multiple targets. The debuff is otherwise near-identical to web. Although really it's not as good because with web you can push a foe back into the webbing and entrap him again after he escapes, or at least sap his movement with difficult terrain, but with otto's once the spell is broken it's just gone.

For my money, if you really want to blow a 6th level slot restraining one guy and web won't cut it, use infernal calling to summon a barbed devil or chain devil, then tell it to grapple. It will try every round to restrain, it deals damage on a success, the enemy has to spend actions to try to get out, and if your foe decides to kill the devil that's yet more actions spent hurting a summoned monster that you don't have to heal. Otto's has more point-and-shoot simplicity, but the actual effect is very weak considering how expensive 6th level slots are.

I think what I'm trying to say is that I wouldn't use Web against any boss or otherwise top-tier enemy, whereas I'd save Otto's to use especially against those enemies.

I've already seen it used to pretty much doom an Ancient Red Dragon. Around the time we were losing the fight, the Bard cast it. My Sharpshooter arrows were huge damage, and others blasted it with DEX spells which it would fail - and then use Legendary Resistance to avoid being too low on health. It used its action to free itself from Otto's, and distance himself with his movement. After that, we doubled down on the offense and he (she? who knows) caved.

Otto's is a encounter-destroyer, and you should always have those in your selection.

[jiriku]

I think what I'm trying to say is that I wouldn't use Web against any boss or otherwise top-tier enemy, whereas I'd save Otto's to use especially against those enemies.

I've already seen it used to pretty much doom an Ancient Red Dragon. Around the time we were losing the fight, the Bard cast it. My Sharpshooter arrows were huge damage, and others blasted it with DEX spells which it would fail - and then use Legendary Resistance to avoid being too low on health. It used its action to free itself from Otto's, and distance himself with his movement. After that, we doubled down on the offense and he (she? who knows) caved.

Otto's is a encounter-destroyer, and you should always have those in your selection.

Am I understanding you correctly here that what destroyed the encounter was wasting one enemy action and restraining one foe for one round?

[MaxWilson]

Otto not only requires an action to try to escape the spell, but most importantly, it has no initial save - meaning its only restriction are creatures that can't be charmed. It's the biggest debuff you could want, especially against creatures with legendary resistance. I in particular love it when a villain wastes their entire turn to try to break free and fail their save. It is a very glorious spell.

I like it too, but I note that the OP already has Bigby's Hand, which relies on skill checks and not saves and therefore also bypasses legendary resistance. Also, at level 11, how much legendary resistance are they actually going to have to deal with, on creatures that can't be simply killed in other ways? Plus, the OP already has a tone of good concentration spells like Conjure Animals, so the opportunity cost for using Otto's is very high.

I would prioritize Mass Suggestion above Otto's for that reason. I might not even take Otto's at all on this PC, since Otto's best use is giving advantage to a whole bunch of minions--ideally you want someone else casting Otto's for your conjured animals to attack.

BTW, this is kind of cheesy, but you can get something quite a lot like Otto's just by summoning constrictor snakes, which restrain anything they hit. No save restriction by strict RAW, although it would be quite reasonable for a DM to not let one Large snake restrain a Huge Adult Red Dragon.

[jiriku]

BTW, this is kind of cheesy, but you can get something quite a lot like Otto's just by summoning constrictor snakes, which restrain anything they hit.

I don't call that cheesy. I call that smart. Good observation!

[Scarytincan]

If you can summon them. No guarantee you get what you want, tho DM dependant...

[Specter]

Am I understanding you correctly here that what destroyed the encounter was wasting one enemy action and restraining one foe for one round?

Since we knew its other minions wouldn't be in the mood if we focused on the dragon, then yes. If you know of any other spell who could do the job feel free to mention it, meanwhile I rest my case.

[dnd2016]

What do you guys think about swapping a spell for major image? I could cast at 6 level before a full rest and have a free illusion to take around with me

[Specter]

What do you guys think about swapping a spell for major image? I could cast at 6 level before a full rest and have a free illusion to take around with me

Sure, why not? Even at level 3 it's a good spell.

[Crgaston]

I'll cast another vote for Mass Suggestion. As to a swap, I can't help a noticeable lack of Synaptic Static.

It's a persistent mass debuff that doesn't require concentration (!)
It's an AOE psychic damage spell.
It targets Int saves.
It gives a 1d6 penalty to people trying to escape your Wand of Web.
It gives a 1d6 penalty to attack rolls and Concentration saves.
It will synergize REALLY well with Bane.

The only downsides are that it's a higher level spell so you're only getting 2 L5 slots per day right now, and friendly fire is a possibility.

[MaxWilson]

I don't call that cheesy. I call that smart. Good observation!

The cheesy part is where you use a Large snake to restrain a Gargantuan dragon because "the stat block doesn't say there is a size restriction," despite the fact that we all know there is no way a boa constrictor could ever wrap itself around an animal as big as a house.

Regular base usage to constrict things smaller than a snake isn't cheesy though.


If you can summon them. No guarantee you get what you want, tho DM dependant...

Yup. Talk to your DM and/or do a little in-character experimentation to find out what is possible in your game.

[dnd2016]

Yes I like conjure animals for its multiple use but my DM rolls a dice for random beasts

[Asmotherion]

Eyebite, Mass Suggestion, Programmed Illusion are some of the best 6th level picks for Bards imo.

[dnd2016]

Do i really need hold monster with Bigbys hand?

[Vorpalchicken]

Good idea. I would drop Hold Monster (I find it's hard to pull off) and get both Otto's and Mass Suggestion. While Mass Suggestion is the superior spell, the ability to unfailingly humiliate your DM'S BBEG is priceless.

[dnd2016]

Was thinking of scrapping otto too and swapping for major image.At 6th lvl before long rest i can cast for free an illusion of myself or anyone to take around with me to use as a decoy,set traps,make foes waste an attack,etc....Bad idea?

[jiriku]

Since we knew its other minions wouldn't be in the mood if we focused on the dragon, then yes. If you know of any other spell who could do the job feel free to mention it, meanwhile I rest my case.

Mass suggestion comes to mind. :smallbiggrin:

[Specter]

Mass suggestion comes to mind. :smallbiggrin:

A foe with legendary resistance can just ignore Mass Suggestion, but he can't do the same against Otto's.