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stoutstien
2018-11-14, 01:19 PM
I guess I've been ruling this all wrong because I allow it. The question is, does it break anything?

Malifice
2018-11-14, 01:23 PM
I guess I've been ruling this all wrong because I allow it. The question is, does it break anything?

It breaks a key design cap on the power of paladins (the rules limit their offence to melee range)

Letting them smite at range removes this limitation, making them much more powerful than intended.

GlenSmash!
2018-11-14, 01:23 PM
I guess I've been ruling this all wrong because I allow it. The question is, does it break anything?

No it wouldn't break anything, but I think that would be a boost to a class that needs no boost.

A limit on smites can be an interesting challenge for the Paladin to overcome.

My current Barbarian doesn't get Rage damage nor can he reckless attack with thrown weapons. It wouldn't break anything if he could, but also just isn't a necessary boost to him.

I still throw weapons plenty of times and even just picked up a Longbow and I expect I will use it.

stoutstien
2018-11-14, 01:28 PM
NO it wouldn't break anything, but I think that would be a boost to a class that needs no boost.

A limit on smites can be an interesting challenge for the Paladin to overcome.

My current Barbarian doesn't get Rage damage nor can he reckless attack with thrown weapons. It wouldn't break anything if he could, but also just isn't a necessary boost to him.

I still throw weapons plenty of times and even just picked up a Longbow and I expect I will use it.

Guess this is a bad time to say I allow rage damage to thrown weapons🙄

GlenSmash!
2018-11-14, 01:30 PM
Guess this is a bad time to say I allow rage damage to thrown weapons🙄

Actually I would think it's the Perfect time :smallbiggrin:

What about Reckless Attacks?

stoutstien
2018-11-14, 01:39 PM
Actually I would think it's the Perfect time :smallbiggrin:

What about Reckless Attacks?
Yea, why not. Gives barbs a more skirmishers feel if they want to. the limit of weapon damage die and free interactions with weapons limits abuse.

Thrown weapon ranges are still well with in close range. Won't step on toes of bow users.

honestly I think this is one of the few ways were thrown weapons are very good reckless attack allow the barbarian to throw the weapon by counteracting the disadvantage. I have a halfling hand axe tosser at my table.

n00b
2018-11-14, 01:56 PM
I think this is one of those things (like many others) in that if it works for your game that's great. By the rules it's not allowed but you can do anything you want with your game. As long as you and your players are happy with it that's all that matters. My issue, and I think others have the same feeling, is when someone tries to put this out as RAW and say it is absolutely allowed. No, it's not, but at your table it's up to your discretion.

Vogie
2018-11-14, 01:59 PM
We know that Thrown melee weapons are not considered Ranged attacks when thrown - this is why Rogues cannot sneak attack with Handaxes, but can with daggers (due to the finesse property, not because they're ranged). By inverting that same property, thrown melee weapons are still melee weapons, and would fall under "when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack" requirement of Divine Smite.

BobZan
2018-11-14, 02:05 PM
It doesn't break, but as said above will be a buff to one of the best classes in the game.

JackPhoenix
2018-11-14, 02:12 PM
We know that Thrown melee weapons are not considered Ranged attacks when thrown - this is why Rogues cannot sneak attack with Handaxes, but can with daggers (due to the finesse property, not because they're ranged). By inverting that same property, thrown melee weapons are still melee weapons, and would fall under "when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack" requirement of Divine Smite.

We know thrown melee weapons *are* making ranged ATTACKS when thrown, however, they aren't ranged WEAPONS, which is why rogue can't use them with sneak attack.

Thrown melee weapons are still melee weapons RAW and RAI. They don't qualify for Divine Smite because ranged weapon attack is ranged weapon attack even if you make it with a melee weapon. If you stab someone with a dart, it's melee weapon attack, even if it's ranged weapon used as improvised weapon in melee. If you punch or kick someone, it's still melee weapon attack, even though no weapon is involved.

mephnick
2018-11-14, 02:41 PM
Guess this is a bad time to say I allow rage damage to thrown weapons🙄

Anyone who doesn't, should. Still the dumbest ruling in the system IMO.

But Smite damage on ranged attacks is a big no-no for me. Ranged damage is literally the single weakness of the Paladin class.

stoutstien
2018-11-14, 02:56 PM
Anyone who doesn't, should. Still the dumbest ruling in the system IMO.

But Smite damage on ranged attacks is a big no-no for me. Ranged damage is literally the single weakness of the Paladin class.
Single class pally only real weakness is hordes. They have two smite spells that do work with bows.

ProsecutorGodot
2018-11-14, 03:15 PM
Single class pally only real weakness is hordes. They have two smite spells that do work with bows.

Having those two spells (Banishing Smite, a decent 5th level spell and Branding Smite, a pretty mediocre 2nd level spell) doesn't make them a good ranged class. Not being able to deal with hordes isn't really a weakness of the class, it's a weakness of martials when compared to casters.

That's even if you consider it to be a debilitating weakness, you're not meant to adventure alone so you've usually got help to deal with hordes.

mephnick
2018-11-14, 03:16 PM
Single class pally only real weakness is hordes. They have two smite spells that do work with bows.

Two fairly meh spells working on a weapon you'll probably never use is a lot different than letting Divine Smite work on ranged attacks.

Trustypeaches
2018-11-14, 03:25 PM
Two fairly meh spells working on a weapon you'll probably never use is a lot different than letting Divine Smite work on ranged attacks.
If it worked on ranged attacks, a ranged Bardadin would be tons of fun.
Swift Quiver spell slots AWAY

stoutstien
2018-11-14, 03:26 PM
Two fairly meh spells working on a weapon you'll probably never use is a lot different than letting Divine Smite work on ranged attacks.
Javelin being the best thrown option is 30/120 and doesn't work with any fighting styles. Hardly letting pally smite at ranged

Kane0
2018-11-14, 04:02 PM
I let them with thrown weapons, but reduce the smite damage to d6s

ThrowingDummy
2018-11-14, 04:05 PM
In the first game I played in, I was added to a group of level 7 players in OotA. Made a dwarven paladin of moradin and was given a +2 dwarven thrower before starting. Have been smiting at range, loads of fun. Never knew I could't. I generally only get off a couple of rounds before I'm in melee anyway.

Xetheral
2018-11-14, 06:27 PM
Actually I would think it's the Perfect time :smallbiggrin:

What about Reckless Attacks?

Speaking of Reckless Attack, was it ever clarified whether "melee weapon attack rolls" in the ability text means:

"(melee weapon) (attack rolls)": i.e. attack rolls made when attacking with a melee weapon, "(melee weapon attack) (rolls)": i.e. rolls made when making a melee weapon attack, or "(melee weapon attack) ([attack] rolls)": i.e. attack rolls made when making a melee weapon attack?
All three interpretations are somewhat problematic.

#1 would permit Reckless Attack with thrown melee weapons, but I believe Crawford has clarified that isn't intended. #1 also, according to Crawford's explanation of "wording minutia" here (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-september-2015), would have been written with a hyphen as "melee-weapon attack rolls" or possibly "melee-weapon attack-rolls".
#2 arguably applies to damage, which is non-sensical as advantage isn't defined for non-d20 rolls. #2 also (inferring standard compound-adjective usage from the link above) would have been written "melee-weapon-attack rolls" because "melee" and "weapon" modify "attack" rather than "rolls". #3 requires reading an extra "attack" into the rules that isn't there.

Man_Over_Game
2018-11-14, 06:39 PM
Speaking of Reckless Attack, was it ever clarified whether "melee weapon attack rolls" in the ability text means:

"(melee weapon) (attack rolls)": i.e. attack rolls made when attacking with a melee weapon, "(melee weapon attack) (rolls)": i.e. rolls made when making a melee weapon attack, or "(melee weapon attack) ([attack] rolls)": i.e. attack rolls made when making a melee weapon attack?
All three interpretations are somewhat problematic.

#1 would permit Reckless Attack with thrown melee weapons, but I believe Crawford has clarified that isn't intended. #1 also, according to Crawford's explanation of "wording minutia" here (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-september-2015), would have been written with a hyphen as "melee-weapon attack rolls" or possibly "melee-weapon attack-rolls".
#2 arguably applies to damage, which is non-sensical as advantage isn't defined for non-d20 rolls. #2 also (inferring standard compound-adjective usage from the link above) would have been written "melee-weapon-attack rolls" because "melee" and "weapon" modify "attack" rather than "rolls". #3 requires reading an extra "attack" into the rules that isn't there.

An easy way to identify it is in a sort of 4-way grid system:



Attack
Melee
Range


Weapon
An axe
A dart


Spell
Shocking Grasp
Fire Bolt



There are two components to every attack: The Source and the Range. The Source indicates the physical properties of the attack, whether it's energy or magic (like Shocking Grasp), or it's physical and mundane in nature (like with a weapon).
Each attack MUST be a Weapon or a Spell attack.

The Range is self explanatory. All ranged attacks suffer disadvantage if an enemy is adjacent to you, but melee attacks cannot hit anything that's not adjacent to you (without a clear exception).
Each attack MUST be a Melee or Ranged attack.

In this case, things like Reckless Attack explicitly say that It cannot be with a ranged attack (which a thrown melee weapon is), and it cannot be from a spell attack (which Shocking Grasp is).

There are odd cases, like Magic Stone (explicitly says it makes a Ranged Spell Attack) that can be fired from a Sling (meaning it's a Ranged Spell Attack that uses a Weapon), which makes it eligible for a Rogue's Sneak Attack, but it's still always considered a Ranged Spell Attack. EVERY attack must have a defined physical and ranged property.

Xetheral
2018-11-14, 06:53 PM
An easy way to identify it is in a sort of 4-way grid system:



Attack
Melee
Range


Weapon
An axe
A dart


Spell
Shocking Grasp
Fire Bolt



There are two components to every attack: The Source and the Range. The Source indicates the physical properties of the attack, whether it's energy or magic (like Shocking Grasp), or it's physical and mundane in nature (like with a weapon).
Each attack MUST be a Weapon or a Spell attack.

The Range is self explanatory. All ranged attacks suffer disadvantage if an enemy is adjacent to you, but melee attacks cannot hit anything that's not adjacent to you (without a clear exception).
Each attack MUST be a Melee or Ranged attack.

In this case, things like Reckless Attack explicitly say that It cannot be with a ranged attack (which a thrown melee weapon is), and it cannot be from a spell attack (which Shocking Grasp is).

There are odd cases, like Magic Stone (explicitly says it makes a Ranged Spell Attack) that can be fired from a Sling (meaning it's a Ranged Spell Attack that uses a Weapon), which makes it eligible for a Rogue's Sneak Attack, but it's still always considered a Ranged Spell Attack. EVERY attack must have a defined physical and ranged property.

I'm not sure how your answer relates to my question. I'm inquiring about the interpretation of the phrase "melee weapon attack rolls" which is unique to Reckless Attack and is ambiguous, as I detailed above.

Man_Over_Game
2018-11-14, 07:12 PM
I'm not sure how your answer relates to my question. I'm inquiring about the interpretation of the phrase "melee weapon attack rolls" which is unique to Reckless Attack and is ambiguous, as I detailed above.

Sorry, I should have made that bit more clear.

Because it defines "Melee Weapon Attack", in that order, it's almost definitely defined as a specific type of attack (as opposed to Rogue's variable Sneak Attack, which just requires a weapon), so it's not #1.

Additionally, "attack roll" makes the most sense, due to the fact that damage is usually very explicitly defined. I don't think there's any instance of damage being modified without the word "damage" being explicitly used.

Lastly, Attacks aren't Attacks without an Attack Roll. There are no references to any kind of Attack that doesn't use the classic d20 Attack Roll. So the only real sensible answer is #3, unless you read it *just* the right way to make sure things don't make sense.

stoutstien
2018-11-14, 08:28 PM
Note: ancestral guardian lv 3 spirit feature works with any attack. So a javelin build works great if you allow RA and rage bonus damage.

JackPhoenix
2018-11-14, 09:21 PM
Lastly, Attacks aren't Attacks without an Attack Roll. There are no references to any kind of Attack that doesn't use the classic d20 Attack Roll. So the only real sensible answer is #3, unless you read it *just* the right way to make sure things don't make sense.

There's one exception: grapple is "special melee attack".

GlenSmash!
2018-11-14, 10:29 PM
Note: ancestral guardian lv 3 spirit feature works with any attack. So a javelin build works great if you allow RA and rage bonus damage.

Zealot level 3 bonus damage also works at range. I've used it on quite a few Javelin throws and shooting arrows that deal additional Radiant damage.

Xetheral
2018-11-15, 12:27 AM
Sorry, I should have made that bit more clear.

Because it defines "Melee Weapon Attack", in that order, it's almost definitely defined as a specific type of attack (as opposed to Rogue's variable Sneak Attack, which just requires a weapon), so it's not #1.

Additionally, "attack roll" makes the most sense, due to the fact that damage is usually very explicitly defined. I don't think there's any instance of damage being modified without the word "damage" being explicitly used.

Lastly, Attacks aren't Attacks without an Attack Roll. There are no references to any kind of Attack that doesn't use the classic d20 Attack Roll. So the only real sensible answer is #3, unless you read it *just* the right way to make sure things don't make sense.

If #3 was intended, I think it would have instead been written "melee weapon attack attack rolls". "Melee weapon attack" and "attack rolls" are both defined terms in 5e; it would be incorrect for them to share the word "attack" if they are both being used as terms of art.

In any case, I'm mostly curious if there have been any clarifications on what "melee weapon attack rolls" means in 5e. I agree that #3 is the most likely interpretation for the RAI among three bad choices, but was uncertain if Crawford ever opined on how that unique phrase should be read.

Tanarii
2018-11-15, 01:25 AM
Javelin being the best thrown option is 30/120 and doesn't work with any fighting styles. Hardly letting pally smite at ranged
Thrown melee weapons work with the Dueling Fighting Style, provided you don't have another weapon in your other hand.

Doesn't work with thrown ranged weapons though. Like the Dart.

Similarly Monk Martial Arts (use Dex to attack, get martial arts die for damage) applies to thrown simple melee weapons. But not Darts, since they are ranged weapons.

Throne12
2018-11-15, 10:54 AM
Actually I would think it's the Perfect time :smallbiggrin:

What about Reckless Attacks?

I dont see why rage and reckless attack is only limited to melee. I've been so pissed off that I pulled my shoe off and just hurl it at someone not really aim just throw it.

Also have you seen any of those videos when a woman gets mad and she just starts throwing everything in reach.

GlenSmash!
2018-11-15, 11:06 AM
I dont see why rage and reckless attack is only limited to melee. I've been so pissed off that I pulled my shoe off and just hurl it at someone not really aim just throw it.

Also have you seen any of those videos when a woman gets mad and she just starts throwing everything in reach.

No I haven't seen those videos. Are they like the ones where people in offices freak out and destroy their computers or phones?

stoutstien
2018-11-15, 12:31 PM
Thrown melee weapons work with the Dueling Fighting Style, provided you don't have another weapon in your other hand.

Doesn't work with thrown ranged weapons though. Like the Dart.

Similarly Monk Martial Arts (use Dex to attack, get martial arts die for damage) applies to thrown simple melee weapons. But not Darts, since they are ranged weapons.

I think dueling with thrown weapons is another one of those up in the air Topics. I allow it but it's one of those things that DM if you have a player playing a pally who wants to throw weapons you can trottle damage. Is weilding defined in rules?

Another note, monks get to use darts as monk weapons at my table they need all the help they can get to survive first few lvs.

Tanarii
2018-11-15, 05:55 PM
I was just commenting on the RAW.