Question about Order Domain's "Voice of Authority"

[Trustypeaches]

The Order Domain is now officially released with Guildmasters Guide to Ravnica, and looking over their first level feature, Voice of Authority, I have a few questions.


Voice of Authority
Starting at 1st level, if you cast a spell with a spell slot of 1st level or higher and target an ally with the spell, that ally can use their reaction immediately after the spell to make one weapon attack against a creature of your choice that you can see. If the spell targets more than one ally, you choose the ally who can make the attack.First off, this is awesome, Toss out a healing word and give your Rogue or Paladin a free attack at a crucial moment. And since it applies to applies to all spells, it makes for a really potent dip for Bards and other squishy casters that use a healthy amount of buffing spells (Divine Soul Sorcerers, Celestial Warlocks, etc).

Reading it over though, I have a couple questions with some big implications.

What counts as an "ally"?
Is it any creature that is friendly or loyal towards the player? Does it need to be mutual? Or is it determined in the context of combat: i.e. a creature that shares the players goals in a given battle (i.e. a platoon of guards helping us repel a demon invasion). Finally, do charmed characters count as "allies" to the caster?

Does the target of Voice of Authority know who it will attack?
When Voice of Authority is invoked, the target decides whether to use their reaction to perform a melee strike,but the Order Cleric has control over who they attack. However, is the target aware of who they will attack when they spend their reaction? Or must they decide to attack before they know who they'll hit, forfeiting their agency to the cleric's divine authority?

How do hostile / damaging spells interact with Voice of Authority?
If you target an ally with a harmful spell, can you still apply Voice of Authority since they were an ally before the spell was cast, even if they become hostile afterwards? While the victim of an attack would be unlikely to spend their reaction on behalf of the Cleric, I think this would have niche use:

The targets is under a persistent charms that doesn't automatically break with damage: Archfey Warlock’s Fey Presence, Dominate Person / Monster, or Draconic Sorcerer’s Draconic Presence. The Order Cleric's own Channel Divinity inflicts a charm that does not break unless it takes damage (perfect for non-damaging debuffs)
The spell cast on them doesn't have an immediate or obvious harmful effect (Hex, Bestow Curse, Levitate, etc)
The target does not realize the cleric attacked them: for example if the spell was cast from stealth or using the Sorcerer's Subtle Spell.
If the spell failed or missed. A spell doesn't need to connect to activate Voice of Authority, and many (not all) charm effects only break when the victim takes damage


But then again this is a lot of theorycrafting around some loose language. How do you guys interpret the feature?

[stoutstien]

*Makes a order domin/Mastermind rogue/ glamor bard and yell inconceivable ever time the golath barb misses an attack

[Unoriginal]

What counts as an "ally"?
Is it any creature that is friendly or loyal towards the player? Does it need to be mutual? Or is it determined in the context of combat: i.e. a creature that shares the players goals in a given battle (i.e. a platoon of guards helping us repel a demon invasion). Finally, do charmed characters count as "allies" to the caster?

An ally is any being that is fighting on your side, for any reason.



Does the target of Voice of Authority know who it will attack?
When Voice of Authority is invoked, the target decides whether to use their reaction to perform a melee strike,but the Order Cleric has control over who they attack. However, is the target aware of who they will attack when they spend their reaction? Or must they decide to attack before they know who they'll hit, forfeiting their agency to the cleric's divine authority?

The Cleric is basically saying "attack this one". But with divine authority.




How do hostile / damaging spells interact with Voice of Authority?
If you target an ally with a harmful spell, can you still apply Voice of Authority since they were an ally before the spell was cast, even if they become hostile afterwards? While the victim of an attack would be unlikely to spend their reaction on behalf of the Cleric, I think this would have niche use:


The creature must be an ally at the time they choose to spend their reaction to help you. If you're attacking someone with lethal power (ie any damaging spell), then it's up to them if they still fight alongside you.

[Man_Over_Game]

Good questions! A lot of this will come down to the DM's discretion, but generally, an Ally is someone who you and they both recognize each other as an ally. So a Charmed target is still an enemy, and not an ally. This is expanded upon the Arcana Cleric feature, which allows you to end magic effects on allies you heal.

I asked a formal question on this, on RPG Stack Exchange, a while back : https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/129082/can-charmed-foes-be-considered-allies


As for the reaction-based attack, I'd probably say that by the time the reaction came up, the ally already knows what effect they're trying to do is. No other feature has you "blindly" attack something.

[Trustypeaches]

As for the reaction-based attack, I'd probably say that by the time the reaction came up, the ally already knows what effect they're trying to do is. No other feature has you "blindly" attack something.Yeah that makes sense, although the unique wording of the feature is what made me think.

The only similar feature I could find was the Battlemaster’s Commander’s Strike, which is very similar flavor-wise but leaves the choice of target to the beneficiary.

It’s an interesting distinction.

[Prince Vine]

You basically say "attack that guy" then they decide if they want to spend the action to do it.

[Damon_Tor]

If you target an ally with a harmful spell, can you still apply Voice of Authority since they were an ally before the spell was cast, even if they become hostile afterwards? While the victim of an attack would be unlikely to spend their reaction on behalf of the Cleric, I think this would have niche use:

It could also just be a case where an ally is caught in the AoE of your attack, which is sometimes tactically necessary anyway, but this gives you an additional benefit when it happens. Bonus points if the ally is a rogue with evasion and the spell targets dex. Monsters all get blowed up, another monster gets another sneak attack, and the rogue has a pretty good shot of being unscathed anyway.

[Trustypeaches]

It could also just be a case where an ally is caught in the AoE of your attack, which is sometimes tactically necessary anyway, but this gives you an additional benefit when it happens. Bonus points if the ally is a rogue with evasion and the spell targets dex. Monsters all get blowed up, another monster gets another sneak attack, and the rogue has a pretty good shot of being unscathed anyway.I don't believe it would work, since Voice of Authority specifies the spell must target the ally, not simply effect them.

AoE spells target terrain, not characters.

[Damon_Tor]

I don't believe it would work, since Voice of Authority specifies the spell must target the ally, not simply effect them.

AoE spells target terrain, not characters.

Contradicted by various rulings by Crawford, ie "Dragon's Breath can't be twinned".

[Trustypeaches]

Contradicted by various rulings by Crawford, ie "Dragon's Breath can't be twinned".
I'm not sure how that contradicts my statement. Can you elaborate?

[Damon_Tor]

I'm not sure how that contradicts my statement. Can you elaborate?


The most relevant bit: (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/944279262361567232?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E944300424546238464&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2018%2F0 1%2F06%2Fis-is-possible-to-twin-spell-booming-blade%2F) "Dragon's breath has two sets of targets: the creature you give the breath weapon to and the creatures in the area of effect created by the spell."

The implication here is that creatures within an area of a spell are "targets" of the spell, even wen the spell reads some "each creature in that area must do X or Y".

[Trustypeaches]

The most relevant bit: (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/944279262361567232?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E944300424546238464&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2018%2F0 1%2F06%2Fis-is-possible-to-twin-spell-booming-blade%2F) "Dragon's breath has two sets of targets: the creature you give the breath weapon to and the creatures in the area of effect created by the spell."

The implication here is that creatures within an area of a spell are "targets" of the spell, even wen the spell reads some "each creature in that area must do X or Y".Well then Voice of Authority just went from being pretty solid to extremely POTENT, especially as a dip for other casters (even more so than clerics usually are).

[stoutstien]

Combo well with any self buff also. A pally could cast ba smite spell>reaction attack>attack action. Ranger zephyr strike

[Damon_Tor]

Combo well with any self buff also. A pally could cast ba smite spell>reaction attack>attack action. Ranger zephyr strike

You aren't your own ally. Otherwise "Pack Tactics" would work while you were by yourself.

[Trustypeaches]

You know, Order Domain cleric seems like an amazing dip for a Glamour bard.

On top of all the normal cleric goodies (Medium Armor + Shield prof for 18 AC, 5-7 more spells, preserved spellcasting progression), Voice of Authority has amazing synergy with the Bard spell list and with Glamour bard's sixth level feature Mantle of Majesty in particular. Able to cast command as a bonus action every turn for 10 turn, the bard gets an excellent use for that ability against foes who would be resistant or immune to charming otherwise. The bard could MASSIVELY boost the damage output of a party rogue with extra sneak attacks every turn, especially since the attack from Voice of Authority can be ranged.

[stoutstien]

You know, Order Domain cleric seems like an amazing dip for a Glamour bard.

On top of all the normal cleric goodies (Medium Armor + Shield prof for 18 AC, 5-7 more spells, preserved spellcasting progression), Voice of Authority has amazing synergy with the Bard spell list and with Glamour bard's sixth level feature Mantle of Majesty in particular. Able to cast command as a bonus action every turn for 10 turn, the bard gets an excellent use for that ability against foes who would be resistant or immune to charming otherwise. The bard could MASSIVELY boost the damage output of a party rogue with extra sneak attacks every turn, especially since the attack from Voice of Authority can be ranged.

Great combo besides you must spend a spell slot to get VoA to work. Lv 6 feature is free casting so no-go. Still great dip.

As for not counting at your own Ally, that is a table call.

[Man_Over_Game]

Great combo besides you must spend a spell slot to get VoA to work. Lv 6 feature is free casting so no-go. Still great dip.

As for not counting at your own Ally, that is a table call.

Note abilities like Paladin Auras, or the Grave Cleric level 2 feature, which explicitly define "you and friendly creatures". There's no such definition in Voice of Authority, Pack Tactics, or the Battle Master's Commander's Strike (which does a similar effect).

This implies that if it's supposed to allow you to gain the benefit, it'd explicitly say so.

[Man_Over_Game]

Well then Voice of Authority just went from being pretty solid to extremely POTENT, especially as a dip for other casters (even more so than clerics usually are).

It does explicitly say that if it targets more than one ally, you choose one. It's still good for AoE abilities (Like Bless, or something), but I don't see too many ways of abusing it. I don't see too many situations where you can still target allies with a spell but not spending a resource (like with Dragon's Breath).

Hmm...Maybe Action Surge? Get 2 spell casts and 2 ally attacks in the same turn? The best case scenario I could see with this is Cure Wounds or Aid + a Concentration spell (like Bless).

[stoutstien]

Note abilities like Paladin Auras, or the Grave Cleric level 2 feature, which explicitly define "you and friendly creatures". There's no such definition in Voice of Authority, Pack Tactics, or the Battle Master's Commander's Strike (which does a similar effect).

This implies that if it's supposed to allow you to gain the benefit, it'd explicitly say so.

Same time bardic inspiration clearly states creatures other than you or the help action which also states another creature.

One of those things that I need to see in play first.

[SpiderWaffle]

1. Does the targeted ally chooses how they would attack the creature, could they do everything they would normally be able to do if they did the attack action, like would a L5 ranger get an extra attack that could use as part of this reaction, or could an ally use two light weapons and a bonus action to attack again, ect?

2. If the target they must attack is out of range would they be able to move to attack it, if so, how would that work, would a rouge be able to use a bonus action to dash, ect?

If anything in a AoE counts as being targeted I see VoA being most useful with these type of spells, particularly ones your ally could be strong against, such as: GREASE, fireball, thunderwave, ect. And of course concentration buff or even debuff spells like faerie fire. Healing word/mass healing word would be the only bonus attack spells that would not break concentration (Sanctuary is useless, seriously wtf), but then you're limited to cantrip spells for your action, so still not able to get a whole ton of value. If you get six levels in cleric you'd get the Embodiment of the Law to cast enchantment spells to buff as a bonus action.

You would need an ally that could really get a ton done from being able to attack like a ranger 5/rogue 3 (assassin), if the ranger extra attack works. not sure what else would compare with something like that.

[Lunali]

1. Does the targeted ally chooses how they would attack the creature, could they do everything they would normally be able to do if they did the attack action, like would a L5 ranger get an extra attack that could use as part of this reaction, or could an ally use two light weapons and a bonus action to attack again, ect?

2. If the target they must attack is out of range would they be able to move to attack it, if so, how would that work, would a rouge be able to use a bonus action to dash, ect?

1. They can make an attack against the target using the currently equipped weapon of their choice, they do not get to take the attack action.

2. If the target is out of their range, they can't attack it.

[SpiderWaffle]

1. They can make an attack against the target using the currently equipped weapon of their choice, they do not get to take the attack action.

2. If the target is out of their range, they can't attack it.

So this seems kind of underwhelming compared to other domains 1st level perks, is the jury out on command domain and VoA yet?

[stoutstien]

So this seems kind of underwhelming compared to other domains 1st level perks, is the jury out on command domain and VoA yet?
It just party dependant. Like others have said if you have a alley with a big single attack or a lot of riders order domain could be extremely strong.

[SpiderWaffle]

It just party dependant. Like others have said if you have a alley with a big single attack or a lot of riders order domain could be extremely strong.

Riders? how would that help things?

[stoutstien]

Riders? how would that help things?
Pretty much anything that isn't directly damage. monks stunning strike, battle master trip or pushing attack, and maybe magic weapons that have an extra effect.