How difficult would it be to convert Chain Mail into a Chain Shirt

[dejarnjc]

Hi all,

Last session my group conquered a pretty powerful creature and got several rolls on the loot table as a reward. One of the items that we ended up getting is Chain mail armor +3. Unfortunately, not a single member of our group can wear heavy armor and only two of us can wear medium armor.

That being said, how realistic would it be to just convert a full set of chain mail into a chain shirt? Does every suit of chain mail include a chain shirt anyway? Is it as simple as just not donning the rest of the armor? Or would it be a bit more complicated and require a blacksmith?


Ultimately, whether or not this can happen will be up to the DM but I like to provide context and reasonable assumptions to him before I request something like this.

[JackPhoenix]

Depends on the design of the mail. Mail shirt may or may not include sleeves and is likely shorter than full mail. Ignoring leg protection, which is separate and can be ignored, it may require some work (you don't even need skilled blacksmith for that, just remove unnecessary sections through selective application of force). Magical powers may present a problem, though... legendary armor likely can't be modified that easily, or you may lose the bonus if it's not complete set.

It's certainly easier with plate, which is made of many separate parts.

Ask your GM.

[jdolch]

I can see this going either way. It's up to the DM. (Isn't it always?)

It could be that simply removing parts will make it into medium Armor. But one could also argue that what makes it heavy armor is the thickness of the metal rings, etc. and then it wouldn't be that simple.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I can see this going either way. It's up to the DM. (Isn't it always?)

It could be that simply removing parts will make it into medium Armor. But one could also argue that what makes it heavy armor is the thickness of the metal rings, etc. and then it wouldn't be that simple.

From what I know the only difference is in the legs and in some versions the hands.

It is very easy to dismantle chain armor.

[LordEntrails]

Non-magical chain would probably be easy to convert. Magical, not so. IMO you would at least need a arcane blacksmith to modify it without destroying the enchantments.

[dmteeter]

Why not just sell the +3 chain mail and split the fund between the party??

Modifying magical armor is not the same as removing a few links on a normal chain

[jdolch]

Not sure how much inspiration you can draw from real armor, as it is distinctly not modeled by D&D. In any actual piece of armor you would wear layers and D&D doesn't use a layered system at all. The most important piece of real Armor is a Gambeson. It's extremely effective Armor in and of itself and also builds the base layer of all other Armors. The whole concept of leather armor is an unrealistic Fantasy Trope.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uWDCDJD_4w

[dejarnjc]

Why not just sell the +3 chain mail and split the fund between the party??

Modifying magical armor is not the same as removing a few links on a normal chain

If it's as simple as not putting on the gauntlets, vambraces, leggings etc. then I'd prefer to just save time. Selling/buying magical items takes a while in our universe and we're in a burgeoning apocalyptic scenario.


I haven't read anything in the rules that modifying magic items is any different than normal ones but lemme know if there's a passage in the DMG or something cause that'll be important to note!

[dejarnjc]

Not sure how much inspiration you can draw from real armor, as it is distinctly not modeled by D&D. In any actual piece of armor you would wear layers and D&D doesn't use a layered system at all. The most important piece of real Armor is a Gambeson. It's extremely effective Armor in and of itself and also builds the base layer of all other Armors. The whole concept of leather armor is an unrealistic Fantasy Trope.

I guess that's a good point. But still, we strive for consistency in our games so if we can draw off the real world examples when we make our ruling we tend to do so since that will make us more consistent in the future.

[Foxhound438]

as others said it would depend on if enchantments break when you modify the armor. Nothing says it has to, but nothing says it can't either.

If I was DMing, I'd probably allow it on the fact that it was a random roll that's now basically nothing without being modified.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

If it's as simple as not putting on the gauntlets, vambraces, leggings etc. then I'd prefer to just save time. Selling/buying magical items takes a while in our universe and we're in a burgeoning apocalyptic scenario.


I haven't read anything in the rules that modifying magic items is any different than normal ones but lemme know if there's a passage in the DMG or something cause that'll be important to note!

I will let my players remake it as medium armor for Arcana and Smithing check and some spell slots.

It depends on the campaign but I will probably make it some days-weeks.

[Unoriginal]

I haven't read anything in the rules that modifying magic items is any different than normal ones but lemme know if there's a passage in the DMG or something cause that'll be important to note!

The DMG is clear that you need to wear the whole of the set for the magic to work. You can't wear one Gauntlet of Ogre Power or one Winged Boot and make-do like that.

Why would a chain mail work when you're not wearing the gauntlets, vambraces, leggings, etc?

Personally I would make it so a smith who has the time to study the magic armor and some fund can modify the Chain Mail into a Chain Shirt.

[Gryndle]

aside from the magic issue, it also depends on how detailed your group gets into things.

Modifying "butted" chain mail like my chain shirt is tedious, but easy enough that anyone with the time and patience can do it. Riveted chain on the other hand, might require more actual skill, as you have to either break individual links, or knock out the rivets, without doing excess damage to links you want to keep. It might not require an actual smith, but the margin for error and time required would be much more significant.

[stoutstien]

Non-magical chain would probably be easy to convert. Magical, not so. IMO you would at least need a arcane blacksmith to modify it without destroying the enchantments.
Quest time to find a Smith who can do it!

[dejarnjc]

Quest time to find a Smith who can do it!

Eh we've been planeshopping for a while and used to frequent Sigl regularly where we've previously utilized a smith who deals in magical armors. So we can definitely go that route but it'll just take longer than I want it seems.

[dejarnjc]

The DMG is clear that you need to wear the whole of the set for the magic to work. You can't wear one Gauntlet of Ogre Power or one Winged Boot and make-do like that.

Why would a chain mail work when you're not wearing the gauntlets, vambraces, leggings, etc?

Personally I would make it so a smith who has the time to study the magic armor and some fund can modify the Chain Mail into a Chain Shirt.

Hmm mostly because that's a ridiculous way for magic to work but then again as others have mentioned, armor in D&D is just kind of ridiculous no matter how you square it. I do appreciate your point about needing to wear the whole set though and have mentioned it to the DM so presumably we'll have to take it to our regular magic armor smithy.

[jdolch]

Modifying "butted" chain mail like my chain shirt is tedious, but easy enough that anyone with the time and patience can do it.

Butted Chain Mail would automatically count as light armor, because its a piece of garbage.

[Kane0]

Best bet take it to your smith, less chance of ruining it and you might even get lucky and end up with some leftover chain you can make use of.

Doing it 'in the field' could mean checks, downtime, reducing or removing the enchantment, or worse.

[GlenSmash!]

Not sure how much inspiration you can draw from real armor, as it is distinctly not modeled by D&D. In any actual piece of armor you would wear layers and D&D doesn't use a layered system at all. The most important piece of real Armor is a Gambeson. It's extremely effective Armor in and of itself and also builds the base layer of all other Armors. The whole concept of leather armor is an unrealistic Fantasy Trope.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uWDCDJD_4w

Yup. In my head assume just about every armor in D&D includes a gambeson. Leather armor? That's just an out layer of leather on a gambeson.

Any way lets ignore reality and look at the descriptions.

Chain Mail
Made of interlocking metal rings, chain mail includes a layer of quilted fabric worn underneath the mail to prevent chafing and to cushion the impact of blows. The suit includes gauntlets.

Chain Shirt
Made of interlocking metal rings, a chain shirt is worn between layers of clothing or leather. This armor offers modest Protection to the wearer's upper body and allows the sound of the rings rubbing against one another to be muffled by outer layers.

I'd say you can spend the time you can turn Chain Mail into a Chain Shirt with some effort. With Smith's tools and proficiency I'd say it would take much less time.

[dejarnjc]

Yeah, that sucks because +3 armor is hard to find and I'm pretty sure "chain shirt" isn't on any loot tables. Hopefully you can do something with it.

It's on most of the loot tables. Magic Table I, for example, has both Chain Mail + 3 and Chain Shirt +3

[dejarnjc]

Chain Mail
Made of interlocking metal rings, chain mail includes a layer of quilted fabric worn underneath the mail to prevent chafing and to cushion the impact of blows. The suit includes gauntlets.

Chain Shirt
Made of interlocking metal rings, a chain shirt is worn between layers of clothing or leather. This armor offers modest Protection to the wearer's upper body and allows the sound of the rings rubbing against one another to be muffled by outer layers.


Hah, I forgot how useless those descriptions are. If I was brand new to this type of stuff all I would get from that description is that Chain Mail includes gauntlets and a Chain Shirt doesn't

[saucerhead]

It's on most of the loot tables. Magic Table I, for example, has both Chain Mail + 3 and Chain Shirt +3

My mistake.

[Kane0]

Lindy also has some videos (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RssIl2v0C1k&t=81s) on (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lahyhBeBsys) chainmail (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-syLrpHt8w), for those getting into Shad's stuff.

[Temperjoke]

Would he be amenable to retconning it as an armor that one of the players (or multiple players) could actually use? That might be easier in the long run for everyone, unless he wants to turn finding a person with skill to alter the armor into a sidequest.

[sophontteks]

Not sure how much inspiration you can draw from real armor, as it is distinctly not modeled by D&D. In any actual piece of armor you would wear layers and D&D doesn't use a layered system at all. The most important piece of real Armor is a Gambeson. It's extremely effective Armor in and of itself and also builds the base layer of all other Armors. The whole concept of leather armor is an unrealistic Fantasy Trope.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uWDCDJD_4w
Nice example. Cloth seems so weak, but actually cutting cloth with a sharp object is really hard to do.

If you go by the armor descriptions, the heavy armor is layered. There isn't a system, but a player could still logically wear part of an armor, even wearing just the leather or gambeson from the set. They don't need rules in 5e to do these things.

Anyway OP. The question is entirely DM dependent. Most DMs would probably be cool with it, but he may have given this armor intentionally knowing you couldn't wear it (evil cackle.) However, even then he may appreciate the creativity.

[GlenSmash!]

Hah, I forgot how useless those descriptions are. If I was brand new to this type of stuff all I would get from that description is that Chain Mail includes gauntlets and a Chain Shirt doesn't

And that the chain shirt I guess has a lay of cloth over it too to muffle the noise or something or other.

Still I'd rule they are similar enough for it to not be much of an issue.

[pdegan2814]

If it was non-magical Chain Mail, I'd say a basic blacksmith tools skill check with a modest DC is all that would be needed, to ensure the armor isn't damaged in the process. For magical Chain Mail, by default I'd say that dismantling it would break the enchantment, especially a high-level enchantment like +3. As an alternative, it would require someone proficient with blacksmith's tools AND Arcana, requiring skill checks in both. A single DC for the smithing check, and then potentially multiple DCs for the Arcana check to see if the enchantment is preserved, degraded, or sundered completely.

And if I was your DM and rolled a magic item off the table that literally no one in the party could use, I'd either make sure you had a place to sell it, or I'd just roll again or pick the nearest compatible equivalent, to preserve the fun. +3 Armor that no one can use seems like a real waste of a loot drop.

[Gryndle]

Butted Chain Mail would automatically count as light armor, because its a piece of garbage.

harsh and highly inaccurate. the pattern used is a much better indicator. the shirt I have IRL is a Japanese 4 in 1 pattern. butted is actually better for complex patterns, because it is easier to repair, and the complex patterns tend to keep you from losing links as often. riveted is better for simpler patterns since the links don't support each other as much.

[jdolch]

harsh and highly inaccurate. the pattern used is a much better indicator. the shirt I have IRL is a Japanese 4 in 1 pattern. butted is actually better for complex patterns, because it is easier to repair, and the complex patterns tend to keep you from losing links as often. riveted is better for simpler patterns since the links don't support each other as much.

Many tests have shown that arrows can penetrate butted mail pretty easily because they force the rings open. Also all of the "Mail is ineffective armor" videos, youtube is flooded with, are butted mail, of course some clickbait youtube channel doesn'T buy thousands of dollars worth of actual armor just to hack it to pieces, when the cheap replica accomplishes the same goal, i.e. getting views. It doesn't work because again under pressure the rings open and the mail rips apart. That doesn't happen with riveted mail.

Whether or not it is easier to repair has no bearing on this argument. Also i suspect the reason why it is easier to repair is the same reason it doesn't work as well: The rings are easy to open.

Relevant Section starts at 1:21minutes

https://youtu.be/VtJS1MziI98?t=81

I am not in any shape or form hating on the mail you own. I don't know the first thing about it, I don't know why you own it, etc. If you don't actually go to combat with it, its probably more than fine. And I think it's awesome that you own actual mail *thumbs up*.

[Gryndle]

Many tests have shown that arrows can penetrate butted mail pretty easily because they force the rings open. Also all of the "Mail is ineffective armor" videos, youtube is flooded with, are butted mail, of course some clickbait youtube channel doesn'T buy thousands of dollars worth of actual armor just to hack it to pieces, when the cheap replica accomplishes the same goal, i.e. getting views. It doesn't work because again under pressure the rings open and the mail rips apart. That doesn't happen with riveted mail.

Whether or not it is easier to repair has no bearing on this argument. Also i suspect the reason why it is easier to repair is the same reason it doesn't work as well: The rings are easy to open.

Relevant Section starts at 1:21minutes

https://youtu.be/VtJS1MziI98?t=81

I am not in any shape or form hating on the mail you own. I don't know the first thing about it, I don't know why you own it, etc. If you don't actually go to combat with it, its probably more than fine. Andd I think it's awesome that you own it.

yes, but what were the patterns used? that is much more relevant to effectiveness than butted or riveted

[jdolch]

yes, but what were the patterns used? that is much more relevant to effectiveness than butted or riveted

You have the pattern and the rings. Both elements form a chain. In chainmail quite litterally. And a chain is only as strong as the weakest link. If the chainmail is the right pattern but has weak links, it's still weak.

Of course if you're wearing 4in1 pattern butted mail and an arrow hits you, you at least have a slight chance that the arrowtip will hit one of the (comparatively few) solid "center rings" and then the arrow is stopped. But if it hits any one of the other rings, the ring gets busted open and the arrow penetrates.

Also this does probably nothing against being ripped open by an axe for example. Sure the solid Center Rings don't break but all the ones right next to them get pulled open and the mail rips.

Now i am not saying butted mail is completely useless and you might as well not wear it! Of course it will offer some degree of protection. That degree just is way less than it would be if it were properly riveted. Especially if you are in a prolonged combat and you sustain many hits.

[GlenSmash!]

yes, but what were the patterns used? that is much more relevant to effectiveness than butted or riveted

I don't think that's true.

Mail keeps you from getting pierced because the rings don't pull apart. Even on your best 6 in 1 butted mail rings are far more easier to force apart that riveted or solid rings. as soon as that happens it's only up to the trusty gambeson to stop that thrust.

[Laserlight]

And that the chain shirt I guess has a lay of cloth over it too to muffle the noise or something or other.

Still I'd rule they are similar enough for it to not be much of an issue.

It's been 35 years since I wore chain but as I recall, it didn't particularly make noise. Chain and plate, on the other hand, did; as you walked, the tail of the chain shirt would swing and slap against your cuisses.

As for the "you have to wear the complete set" I concur that you can't wear one Gauntlet of Ogre Strength and get the benefit, because if you could, you'd also wear a single Glove of White Sequins to boost your Perform (CHA) check (or some other "I'm benefiting from two different glove types" cheese) . That doesn't apply for chain, so I'd allow you to downgrade from Mail to Shirt with no problem. It's not like D&D armor or weapons have any serious relationship to realism anyway.

[dejarnjc]

And if I was your DM and rolled a magic item off the table that literally no one in the party could use, I'd either make sure you had a place to sell it, or I'd just roll again or pick the nearest compatible equivalent, to preserve the fun. +3 Armor that no one can use seems like a real waste of a loot drop.

To be fair, he's already provided us with a robust magic item market in Sigil, as well as a potential way to twist fate and change one magic item into another (i.e. roll again) through a magic font at our head quarters. Though we have not really explored the font too much yet as we're missing some requisite materials.

[GlenSmash!]

It's been 35 years since I wore chain but as I recall, it didn't particularly make noise. Chain and plate, on the other hand, did; as you walked, the tail of the chain shirt would swing and slap against your cuisses.


I agree with you. I was going by the written 5e discretion of Chain Shirt inaccurate as it is.