Agnostic wanting to play Cleric

[Spectre9000]

How do I get a character, who is agnotic/atheistic to believe in a God? Premise is the characters never knew gods, and now this is character suddenly thrown into a world where gods are known and worshiped and now that character is there. This player wants this character to be a Cleric, and is trying to follow a God, but doesn't really worship that God. This person sees it as more trying to get to know the God, and befriend it, than actually worship it.

Any tips on how to RP the transition into a worshiper of this God?

[Unoriginal]

How do I get a character, whose character is agnotic/atheistic to believe in a God? Premise is the characters never knew gods, and now this is character suddenly thrown into a world where gods are known and worshiped and now that character is there. This player wants this character to be a Cleric, and is trying to follow a God, but doesn't really worship that God. They see it as more trying to get to know the God, and befriend it, than actually worship it.

Any tips on how to RP the transition into a worshiper of this God?

You're not a Cleric because you worship a God, you're a Cleric because the god choses you to be.

The character meeting the god in a dream and RPing the encounter is how I would do it, personally.

[jdolch]

D&D doesn't have agnostic Characters.

In D&D Gods are real. Even if in your setting they don't literally wander the earth they do grant their followers real, tangible powers. You can open Dimension Doors and visit the Realm of a God etc.

Being agnostic in D&D is like saying "I don't believe in Gravity" in real life.

If he wants to be a Cleric, have him meet a God(dess) that grants him his powers. (the ones he gets on level 1 cleric) And that's gonna have him believe in Gods real fast, if he can literally use the powers the God(dess) granted him and see the results.

Maybe he even falls in love with a (literal) Goddess and the whole story becomes one of unobtainable romance (and maybe obsession)

[Kane0]

What you want my friend is an Ur-Priest! The concept being that you steal divine power rather than begging for it.

Some sample rationale for doing so might be due to the apathy, pettiness, fallibility or injustice the deities display, an objection to the power they hold or simply wanting that power for themselves.

Edit: Alternatively, have a chat to your DM about having actual contact with your god. A good conversation can really open up your options.

[Tawmis]

How do I get a character, who is agnotic/atheistic to believe in a God? Premise is the characters never knew gods, and now this is character suddenly thrown into a world where gods are known and worshiped and now that character is there. This player wants this character to be a Cleric, and is trying to follow a God, but doesn't really worship that God. This person sees it as more trying to get to know the God, and befriend it, than actually worship it.

Any tips on how to RP the transition into a worshiper of this God?

This is easy.

Way too easy, for that matter.

So this player wants their character to be Agnostic - but still have the powers of a Cleric?

Just have the player do the "I cast heal on my buddy!" And make it happen.

Just don't tell the player where the power source is coming from.

And in the end, have it coming from a demon, who eventually comes to collect on the player's soul.

Epic boss fight ensues.

[Millstone85]

There is something Annoying about these Posts, but I can't quite put my Finger on it.

[Spectre9000]

D&D doesn't have agnostic Characters.

In D&D Gods are real. Even if in your setting they don't literally wander the earth they do grant their followers real, tangible powers. You can open Dimension Doors and visit the Realm of a God etc.

Being agnostic in D&D is like saying "I don't believe in Gravity" in real life.

If he wants to be a Cleric, have him meet a God(dess) that grants him his powers. (the ones he gets on level 1 cleric) And that's gonna have him believe in Gods real fast, if he can literally use the powers the God(dess) granted him and see the results.

Maybe he even falls in love with a (literal) Goddess and the whole story becomes one of unobtainable romance (and maybe obsession)

There's a big difference between believing in a god, and knowing a god exists. In D&D people know there are gods, they don't believe in them.

I want to transition this character into truly believing and worshiping in this God.

[jdolch]

Doesn't the scale go "Not believing" - "Believing" - "Knowing" ?

How can you know something and not believe in it?

But again from an RP perspective It could go something like this: Character never met a God and thinks all Believers are crazy or stupid. PC meets a God, but doesn't realize it. PC gets to know the God and gets suspicious. PC goes back to town. PC tells story to local folks. Local folks recognize that PC is talking about meeting A GOD. PC goes back and tries to find God. PC does find God. PC talks to God. PC swears allegiance to God. God grants PC powers.

[Vogie]

The just have them play in the Celestial Warlock/Divine Soul Sorcerer space. Especially if you're starting at low level They have these powers that came from somewhere, and they seem divine, but the PC doesn't believe in it, and explains it away.

Then as the character reaches level 10, you make a decision to give them an unwinnable fight, and when agnostic PC attempts to do anything, you give them an auto-succeeded Divine Intervention. (You do not tell them this ahead of time). At this point, they get to look in awe as their diety strides in and smashes face. Sure, it's a setup Deus Ex Machina, but that is kinda what that character is setting up for.



Maybe he even falls in love with a (literal) Goddess and the whole story becomes one of unobtainable romance (and maybe obsession)

https://i.gifer.com/U7O1.gif

[Spectre9000]

Doesn't the scale go "Not believing" - "Believing" - "Knowing" ?

How can you know something and not believe in it?

But again from an RP perspective It could go something like this: Character never met a God and thinks all Believers are crazy or stupid. PC meets a God, but doesn't realize it. PC gets to know the God and gets suspicious. PC goes back to town. PC tells story to local folks. Local folks recognize that PC is talking about meeting A GOD. PC goes back and tries to find God. PC does find God. PC talks to God. PC swears allegiance to God. God grants PC powers.

Faith. Knowing something doesn't require Faith. Believing in something does.

[BaconAwesome]

There's a big difference between believing in a god, and knowing a god exists. In D&D people know there are gods, they don't believe in them.

I want to transition this character into truly believing and worshiping in this God.

I think you need to have a God whose values are aligned with the character's, and who does more than just grant spells every morning. When you get your spells either way, actual worship probably means there is mounting g evidence that the God is doing something the character really likes

[jdolch]

Faith. Knowing something doesn't require Faith. Believing in something does.

You lost me.

On a purely theoretical (real world-theological) level this is correct. But in the D&D world, believing follows knowing.

If you actually meet a God and you are sure (for whatever reason) that this really is a God, then you don't need faith to believe in it. Just like you don't need to have faith in Gravity. How are you going from Knowing BACK to only Believing?

Again I think the real world faith is replaced in D&D with an actual Oath of Allegiance.

[Prince Vine]

Use the Sanya model from Dresden Files.
He was handed a magical sword by the archangel Michael and fights as a warrior of 'the White God.' His position is agnostic and claims Michael could indeed have been an angel, or just an alien of some kind or some magical creature, it doesn't change that the work he is doing now is worthy and needs to be done.

[strangebloke]

Faith. Knowing something doesn't require Faith. Believing in something does.

:smallconfused: I could say with equal accuracy that everything requires faith in something. Granted, you may think your belief in gravity to be more warranted than my belief in Moradin, but in DND, my belief in Moradin would be better warranted.

So in reality, if you're saying belief=faith=unprovable things, then belief (as you've defined it) can't exist in DND. In which case, everyone is an agnostic.

Now, you could say, he doesn't trust in a god, or doesn't worship a god. But that isn't what an agnostic is. An agnostic is:

"a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena"

So an agnostic (if they existed in, say, Faerun) would be a colossal idiot on the order of a flat-earther. Hence our confusion at your OP.

If he doesn't want to worship a god, then fine. He's a wizard specializing in restorative magics. There isn't a hard disctinction between those in the rules anyway. Alternately, he doesn't worship a god, he just has a 'special friend' who happens to have divine power. Alternately, he was chosen by a god and granted power, even though he never asked for it and doesn't worship said god (or entity. It doesn't have to be a god.)

[Tawmis]

There is something Annoying about these Posts, but I can't quite put my Finger on it.

That's because your avatar doesn't have fingers. :)

[Millstone85]

That's because your avatar doesn't have fingers. :)Good one. Letters.

[Callak_Remier]

I reccommend they Reread the Cleric entry.
They dont need to be devout but the idea that they benefit from the god they dont believe exists is contradictory

[LudicSavant]

Doesn't the scale go "Not believing" - "Believing" - "Knowing" ?

How can you know something and not believe in it?

I suspect what he *means* to get across is that there is a difference between believing that Corellon Larethian exists and believing Corellon Larethian's religion.

Let's say I am an adventurer and I go and meet a big scary dragon. I probably will not take a lot of convincing to accept that the thing that turned the guy next to me into a pile of ash does, in fact, exist. If everyone else is using the label "god" to describe this beast, I probably won't object to using the same label for the creature type, either.

I may take a bit more convincing to believe that it is my rightful lord and savior, that I should worship it for eternity, and believe that its opinions define objective morality (and forgetting everything about what the words "subjective" and "objective" actually mean). Or any other kind of dogma that might hypothetically be attached to this dragon's religion.

[Trustypeaches]

You lost me.

On a purely theoretical (real world-theological) level this is correct. But in the D&D world, believing follows knowing.

If you actually meet a God and you are sure (for whatever reason) that this really is a God, then you don't need faith to believe in it. Just like you don't need to have faith in Gravity. How are you going from Knowing BACK to only Believing?

Again I think the real world faith is replaced in D&D with an actual Oath of Allegiance.
I think the definition of a god would be contentious. Yes, you might know for certain that there are entities with incredible power that can shape the material realm, but that doesn't mean you believe they are omnipotent or all-knowing or believe in their goals and visions and so on.

I'd say an agnostic in D&D doesn't believe that the gods are as all powerful or all knowing as some claim.

[JNAProductions]

Obligatory forum rules reminder.

As for actual input...

Just let them refluff. Nothing wrong with that.

[NecessaryWeevil]

This player wants this character to be a Cleric, and is trying to follow a God, but doesn't really worship that God. This person sees it as more trying to get to know the God, and befriend it, than actually worship it.

Any tips on how to RP the transition into a worshiper of this God?

Perhaps, for a sufficiently good-natured God, the distinction is so fine as to be irrelevant?

[samcifer]

I know I'm a terrible person for thinking it and I'm very sorry, but this was the first thing that came to mind when I read the title of this thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0F9b_o3uBk

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

There's a big difference between believing in a god, and knowing a god exists. In D&D people know there are gods, they don't believe in them.

I want to transition this character into truly believing and worshiping in this God.

Believing is something you do in the absence of evidence. It's the difference between science and theology.

I think what you mean is either devotion to the god and/or belief in his ideals. I would assume a person comes to this kind of personal revelations through some kind of key event: A traumatic experience, help for a loved one thought lost, some catharsis saving him from himself etc.

[Keravath]

You lost me.

On a purely theoretical (real world-theological) level this is correct. But in the D&D world, believing follows knowing.

If you actually meet a God and you are sure (for whatever reason) that this really is a God, then you don't need faith to believe in it. Just like you don't need to have faith in Gravity. How are you going from Knowing BACK to only Believing?

Again I think the real world faith is replaced in D&D with an actual Oath of Allegiance.

Actually, in my opinion, in D&D, the situation is far less clear.

In the real world there aren't demonstrable instances of divine intervention ... otherwise faith would not be needed.

However, in D&D the opposite is true. There are so many "powers" in the universe who are capable of "miracles" that it becomes unclear exactly which powers are actually gods. There are lesser and greater gods, demi-gods, good, evil and neutral gods, beings that can kill gods, beings that aspire to being a god. Beings with followers who receive power from them but are those beings actually gods? Or just someone really powerful from somewhere else who is willing to share some of their power for a follower?

Honestly, an agnostic cleric in D&D probably believes that none of them are really gods but rather just very old powerful beings that have learned more. How is "divinity" defined in a universe like D&D? D&D has a number of pantheons from conflicting religions as well as dieties that have been created for specific worlds or non-human races. Are the different faces of the a god of farming/agriculture/the harvest ... different aspects of the same being or is each a unique, distinct being and the only distinguishing feature si their worshippers? If two farmers who live beside each other pray to their different gods for rain ... do the gods need to cooperate to provide rain? Do they work together? Do the gods hate each other so that neither one will provide rain to a non-believer and so the crops belonging to their follower dies?

Yes. In D&D, every person will know that the world is full of powerful beings that can affect your life at their least whim. Most will probably pray to them as if they were gods simply just to avoid their anger. Howver, it is certainly possible in a world where heroes can aspire to become "gods" to wonder if any of the beings claiming to be a "god" actually are one :)

[Kaliayev]

How do I get a character, who is agnotic/atheistic to believe in a God? Premise is the characters never knew gods, and now this is character suddenly thrown into a world where gods are known and worshiped and now that character is there. This player wants this character to be a Cleric, and is trying to follow a God, but doesn't really worship that God. This person sees it as more trying to get to know the God, and befriend it, than actually worship it.

Any tips on how to RP the transition into a worshiper of this God?

Have them start off with a lesser deity or quasi-deity. Such beings are more likely to interact with the material plane than greater deities. That is, the cleric is far more likely to actually encounter a lesser deity or quasi-deity than a greater deity. Given the above, jdolch's suggestion that the character meet a deity seems like the most logical path. The being's splendor and gifts (divine magic) will likely be enough to ensure some level of devotion from the cleric. Make this lesser deity a fixture of the game, potentially intervening when absolutely necessary or offering advice and companionship to the cleric. Make it clear that this deity's plans for the cleric overlap with the broader focus of the game, with the deity potentially granting a blessing(s) as the cleric accomplishes significant labors that the deity has hinted at or more directly assigned to the cleric. If a cleric's faith in and worship of a deity doesn't improve after receiving a blessing of protection, there's something wrong with that cleric.

p.s. Take a look at a few of the lesser deities for some examples of how a character might routinely encounter such a being. If you're open to taking lessons from Critical Role, you can also take a look at how Matthew Mercer is having a relatively unknown quasi-deity, presumably, interact with Laura Bailey's (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDW8wL_jIYM) Jes (https://youtu.be/DycH2Ywhs6Y?t=78)ter (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGjh4fVElBQ).



You lost me.

On a purely theoretical (real world-theological) level this is correct. But in the D&D world, believing follows knowing.

If you actually meet a God and you are sure (for whatever reason) that this really is a God, then you don't need faith to believe in it. Just like you don't need to have faith in Gravity. How are you going from Knowing BACK to only Believing?

Again I think the real world faith is replaced in D&D with an actual Oath of Allegiance.

Since there are many gods and one can switch gods over the course of time, faith isn't irrelevant. Given that one is looking at a world of proven pantheons and polytheism, and not a world of unproven monotheism, faith takes on a different form in the world. The question of faith is no longer a question of does this god exist, but which god does one elevate above the others and why? In a multiverse where the gods are powerful, but not omnipotent, beings who are basically vying for control of the multiverse, what makes one's god better in one's eyes and vice versa? For some, it's as simple as elevating a god that is relevant to their pursuit(s) in life. For a farmer, elevating a god of harvest over the other gods makes the most sense. The farmer's daily efforts, along with whatever offerings they might make to their god, are a form of worship. Does the farmer lose faith in this god if they have a bad harvest or can no longer tend the fields? For a cleric, that connection is bound to be more meaningful and their faith more resolute, but not unshakable.

Even in a world where many gods exist and make their existence indisputable, one can still have one's faith challenged by a substantive contradiction, failure, or temptation that is immediately relevant to their faith (e.g. my god told me that I was the chosen one, but my god allowed me to die, only to be resurrected a year later by a cleric of a rival god). Such a challenge can potentially lead one to another god or serious doubts about one's connection to one's god. If faith and doubt were irrelevant in the world, the elves wouldn't exist in their current form, because they never would have turned away from Corellon's example and demonstrable superiority over Lolth.

[Joe the Rat]

In D&D:

What we would describe as Atheist or Agnostic is what is Tropeically a Flat Earth Atheist - denying the reality of something manifestly real. Faith is weird too, as we tend to link faith to "believe in that which you have no proof." Or more cynically, "Insist you have proof in something, simply because you want there to be real evidence, and punch anyone who says otherwise."

With the exception of unknown divinities, what we are talking about with faith/belief/worship is support and allegiance. Gods exist. Anyone who says otherwise is playing Planescape. But which one is yours. Who do you love? Who's your college team? Which Manchester FC do you fight for? Coke or Pepsi? Team Hemsworth or Team Hiddleston? (Fake question - there is only Team Elba). It's your tribe, mate.

Your go-to for divine favors, the one who's symbol you wear, a patron deity of whatever it is you think is most important to you. You support this deity, and believe they look out for you.

Coming in agnostically - from a world where divinity is not manifest, or visible, or provable, or possibly even in existence (Eberron and Athas, f'rex), all of a sudden holy crap, those weird basement dwellers on the internet were right, and superheroes are real.
But that doesn't mean they are deserving of worship. For all you know they are just super-powerful supernatural beings pretending to be the makers and shakers. And given how sideways things go if not for roaming ragtag bunches of misfits, I'd say they should be getting an earful about how them-damned awful they are at their jobs.

But this is where it gets tricky. Clerics are granted power by a deity, to act as an agent of their will, and generally have a faith-angle to the interaction. Holy symbols as spell foci and the like. What we are looking at here is a person asking for spells, asking to channel their divine power... without necesarrily having the worship or reverence angles. Can you pray for spells sarcastically? Can you have a neutral relationship with your empowering entity?
Agnosticleric: "Yo dawg, hook me up with some heals and holy smite-lights."
Anubis: "Please don't call me 'dawg'..."

You've been chosen. You have to acknowledge this choosing, and are probably at least vaguely aligned with the goals or values of the deity. But can it work without worship?

[thoroughlyS]

How do I get a character, who is agnotic/atheistic to believe in a God? Premise is the characters never knew gods, and now this is character suddenly thrown into a world where gods are known and worshiped and now that character is there. This player wants this character to be a Cleric, and is trying to follow a God, but doesn't really worship that God. This person sees it as more trying to get to know the God, and befriend it, than actually worship it.
Can you provide some more details about the character? What was the world they came from like? How did they come to this other world? What is this world like? What is their background, or backstory if that isn't chosen? Why is that their background?

Also, could you elaborate a little further about the player's motivations for making this character? Honestly, at this point I'm not sure that a god would grant a character spells without devotion (or "belief"). And I'm also not certain how quickly a character can just become pious... The fiction presented seems to imply that arrangement takes a while to forge.

If I were making that kind of character, I'd probably start with a different class and then multiclass to cleric after a suitable in-game acceptance of a god.

[CantigThimble]

How do I get a character, who is agnotic/atheistic to believe in a God? Premise is the characters never knew gods, and now this is character suddenly thrown into a world where gods are known and worshiped and now that character is there. This player wants this character to be a Cleric, and is trying to follow a God, but doesn't really worship that God. This person sees it as more trying to get to know the God, and befriend it, than actually worship it.

Any tips on how to RP the transition into a worshiper of this God?

I'd start out with the character thinking of his relationship like a warlock: He's made a deal with a powerful entity and is getting magical powert in return. All he has to do is profess a few tenets, observe a few rules and bam! Miraculous powers.

However, it doesn't end there. The more he serves this god the more he comes to understand those tents that he's been preaching. He understands what they mean and why they matter. The world needs this message, more than any other. Slowly, the god's cause becomes his own cause until he can no longer distinguish his own ideals from those of his god. Searching divine scriptures and praying become identical with his own introspection and moral consideration.

He stops being an agent of his god because he is commanded to be, but instead is one because that is who he is.

The details of the journey depend agreat deal on the god in question, but that's the general framework I'd follow.

[GlenSmash!]

You're not a Cleric because you worship a God, you're a Cleric because the god choses you to be.

The character meeting the god in a dream and RPing the encounter is how I would do it, personally.

Indeed. While not a cleric my Zealot Barbarian has no idea where his divine powers came from. He's not necessarily agnostic, but he is a bit unnerved by an unknown source of radiant damage.

I'm interested to see what my DM has in store.

[GlenSmash!]

It might be worth checking out The Clerical Quintet.

From the Wikipedia article "Salvatore invented a concept of spiritual journey for his character, who initially treats his religion as just a lifestyle, but gradually becomes more tied to his god, Deneir"

In fact I'd still say Cadderly is much more of a scholar than an acolyte, and is far more devoted to the ideals of Deneir than worshiping the god itself.

[King of Nowhere]

How do I get a character, who is agnotic/atheistic to believe in a God? Premise is the characters never knew gods, and now this is character suddenly thrown into a world where gods are known and worshiped and now that character is there. This player wants this character to be a Cleric, and is trying to follow a God, but doesn't really worship that God. This person sees it as more trying to get to know the God, and befriend it, than actually worship it.

Any tips on how to RP the transition into a worshiper of this God?

an agnostic is somebody who does not accept the existance of god(s) in the absence of proof. that's the part that people tend to forget. In the real world, there are no solid proofs, so people can be atheists. But in a fantasy world, where gods are demonstrably real, those people would not deny the existance of gods just because they are set in their ways.
One possible outcome is that they would refuse to consider the gods holy. They are extremely powerful individuals, with great magic and superhuman intelligence, but that does not make the so-called gods sacred. It does not make them better. they may be worthy of respect, but not prayer. I mean, when I was in university, I had a professor who was very smart and knowledgeable, and he had great power, in that he got to decide if I kept the job or not. And I respected him a lot, but I never felt like kneeling down and praying to him, so I don't see why I should pray this pelor guy.
this position is generally called nay-theism

[Scarytincan]

D&D doesn't have agnostic Characters.

Being agnostic in D&D is like saying "I don't believe in Gravity" in real life.



Hey man, flat earthers exist...

[GreyBlack]

Easy. You don't worship a God. Instead, you just get a domain.

Nothing in the fluff or crunch of the Cleric necessitates picking a God. Instead, you apply yourself and live by a set of principles according to your domain. Your power comes from your commitment to those ideals, not by commitment to a deity.

ETA: It's the same logic that says that a Druid can wear metal armor; while MOST do it this way, not all do. OT, BTW, the druids can wear metal armor is totally stupid and I will always Rule 0 that it's a requirement of druidic spellcasting to not wear metal, but I won't bring my personal biases into it.

[Anymage]

I get the appeal of a story about answering a calling, but a cleric is one of the least suited classes for this. Ideally it would happen in backstory, but if the character started out cynically they'd start in some other class and only change to cleric once they'd embraced the deity and accepted its investiture.

Alternately, I could see a philosophically minded character deciding that deities are just big outsiders, but that one particular big outsider (or a group of them, if pantheon worship is on the table) have goals that rather align with the character's personal philosophical goals. Not being a fervent believer, but still accepting an investment of power towards the pursuit of your mutual goals seems like something a character in a D&D world might do.

[sithlordnergal]

Doesn't the scale go "Not believing" - "Believing" - "Knowing" ?

How can you know something and not believe in it?



There are a multitude of ways, most of which involve willful ignorance and ignoring anything that does not fit in your personal world view. Think Flat Earther...we have more then enough proof to prove them wrong, and yet they still do not believe the earth is round, and many do not believe that gravity exists...

[bid]

On a purely theoretical (real world-theological) level this is correct. But in the D&D world, believing follows knowing.
Ah no.

I know my friends exist. I know those other people exist too.
I believe in my friends. I don't believe in those other people.

Belief is about being protected and granted miracles, small and big.
It's something as intangible as "the future to come" and cannot be measured.

You must see the god as your friend and protector, otherwise there is no belief in your relation.

[Sizzlefoot]

There is something Annoying about these Posts, but I can't quite put my Finger on it.

Yes, there sure is Something, I sure do wonder What it Is.

[Asmotherion]

I suppose they could view their deity as a Warlock views their Patron; High respect and all, but questioning their actual Divine Nature, and seeing them as some sort of higher ultra powerful being that helps them and wants prayer in return.

[MThurston]

How do I get a character, who is agnotic/atheistic to believe in a God? Premise is the characters never knew gods, and now this is character suddenly thrown into a world where gods are known and worshiped and now that character is there. This player wants this character to be a Cleric, and is trying to follow a God, but doesn't really worship that God. This person sees it as more trying to get to know the God, and befriend it, than actually worship it.

Any tips on how to RP the transition into a worshiper of this God?

The God wouldn't give them powers.

So they could play a cleric with no powers until he/she started to believe in him.

You could have the God heal their friends to shiw the power it has. Make the character want to be like their God.

If the player refuses to accept the God as a God then they would never get the powers.

[Unoriginal]

The God wouldn't give them powers.

Gods give powers to whomever they want.

The question is not if you believe in the god, is if the god believes in you.

[Throne12]

The real question is why arn't there more Agnostic atheist's. Yes there are powerful beings that can do just about anything. But a powerful wizard can do God like things too. D&d gods are not all know or all seeing nor immortal. So why are these powerful beings called gods. They are just really powerful cult leaders. The only difference between a cleric and a warlock in how magic is given and the system of giving the power.

Character POV
I known Akatosh (elder scrolls god) is real but I dont believe he is a God. I also dont believe in his dogma and teaching's. That is a Atheist in a world with beings labeled gods.

[MThurston]

Gods give powers to whomever they want.

The question is not if you believe in the god, is if the god believes in you.

SMH. Sure.

[Keltest]

Use the Sanya model from Dresden Files.
He was handed a magical sword by the archangel Michael and fights as a warrior of 'the White God.' His position is agnostic and claims Michael could indeed have been an angel, or just an alien of some kind or some magical creature, it doesn't change that the work he is doing now is worthy and needs to be done.

Seconding this. He knows theres power, and he knows it comes from a being who wants things he also wants. The exact metaphysics aren't something he wants to worry about, he isn't a philosopher. He's just going to do his job and do it well and let other people worry about whether its a god or if he's just in a powerful delusion or whatever.

[JNAProductions]

The God wouldn't give them powers.

So they could play a cleric with no powers until he/she started to believe in him.

You could have the God heal their friends to shiw the power it has. Make the character want to be like their God.

If the player refuses to accept the God as a God then they would never get the powers.

For an evil god? Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

Bane
"No one gets to be my cleric unless they devote their lives to ME! AND ME ALONE!"

For a good god? Makes a bit less sense.

Pelor
"This fellow has been a good man his entire life, helping others at cost to himself, and now his town is under attack by zombies. I know he doesn't venerate me, or anything really, but he deserves a chance to continue doing good."

[bid]

Gods give powers to whomever they want.

The question is not if you believe in the god, is if the god believes in you.
Nice way to put it.

There are 2 sides of the game coin for gods.

- gods gain power from worship:
Even if your cleric doesn't believe in you, you will gain worshipper from those he helped.

- gods want to advance their agenda:
If that guy's goals align with your, you want to support him.

[Millstone85]

For an evil god? Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

Bane
"No one gets to be my cleric unless they devote their lives to ME! AND ME ALONE!"

For a good god? Makes a bit less sense.

Pelor
"This fellow has been a good man his entire life, helping others at cost to himself, and now his town is under attack by zombies. I know he doesn't venerate me, or anything really, but he deserves a chance to continue doing good."Law and chaos could also factor into this.

Amaunator
"All clerics of mine must call me Lord, knowing of a lord's duties toward his retainers. There can otherwise be no coherence in our relationship."

Sune
"You are beautiful, yet none sees it like I do. With my gift, may you bring what is on the inside out."

[JNAProductions]

Law and chaos could also factor into this.

Amaunator
"All clerics of mine must call me Lord, knowing of a lord's duties toward his retainers. There can otherwise be no coherence in our relationship."

Sune
"You are beautiful, yet none sees it like I do. With my gift, may you bring what is on the inside out."

That's fair.

I'd definitely agree that SOME gods will only empower you should you worship them, but there are some that would empower you simply because you are worthy and deserve it.

[LudicSavant]

"In D&D" is a pretty broad generalization; D&D includes countless settings, not just a single world. And it's worth noting that nobody seems to have a problem with skeptics in Eberron.

Some people seem to get worked up about it from time to time in Forgotten Realms, but frankly I don't really see any good reason why. The very arguments that work for the Undying Court or the Inspired or the dragon gods of the Seren (all of these beings certainly exist, after all) seem like they'd work about as well for Bane or whoever, too.

If someone says they don't believe in the dragon gods of the Seren, it's usually not because they don't believe dragons exist... it's because they don't believe that dragons are gods.

Wasn't there actually a canon organization in Forgotten Realms like this? I seem to remember a story about how they thought that all of the FR gods were secretly epic level spellcasters. And frankly it's not hard to imagine a D&D setting where that's actually true. Indeed, some DMs apparently have already done this (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/7a2ydt/remember_in_dungeons_and_dragons_gods_are_a_thing/dp6os9t).

Your DM running a campaign could be doing it right now, Clerics! :smalltongue:

[Unoriginal]

Gods aren't just wacky OP spell-slingers.

Gods are ideals. They may not be the very to of the cosmic food chain, but they *are* the greatest for the things mortal care about. Moradin is a smith beyond amazing, so smith sees him as a model. Tiamat is the peak of evil dragonhood, having everything they value a thousandfold. Even the elves recognize Lolth gave them ambition and a sense of purpose in life.

[LudicSavant]

Gods aren't just wacky OP spell-slingers.

Gods are ideals. They may not be the very to of the cosmic food chain, but they *are* the greatest for the things mortal care about. Moradin is a smith beyond amazing, so smith sees him as a model. Tiamat is the peak of evil dragonhood, having everything they value a thousandfold. Even the elves recognize Lolth gave them ambition and a sense of purpose in life.

But you could totally outsmith Moradin in editions of D&D that included his statblock.

[Unoriginal]

But you could totally outsmith Moradin in editions of D&D that included his statblock.

You could also heal people by drowning them.


5e is smarter than that.

To out-smith Moradin, you'd need to be able to personally create a whole new species of humanoid able to reproduce on their own with only metal and smith's tools.

[LudicSavant]

You could also heal people by drowning them

:eyeroll:

We’re not talking about some odd rules glitch here. Mortals besting gods is a time-honored D&D tradition. Heck, I remember when Lolth had 66 hit points.

Also, the whole argument you’re making doesn’t appear to address my original point in the first place. You can point at Superman and rightly say he’s better at things than people (including many canonical D&D gods, especially in certain continuities...), but no specific unique superpower will suddenly prove to everyone that he’s something more than a powerful creature.

[Unoriginal]

:eyeroll:

We’re not talking about some odd rules glitch here.

Moradin had between +72 and +74 at crating skills in 3.X, not counting his divine powers, and could craft with 20 free actions per round.

There was no way PCs could out-smith him except with rule glitches caused by the gamebook bloat and the writers not caring about how the elements worked together.



Mortals besting gods is a time-honored D&D tradition.

In combat, sure. You don't hear me complain about how it's possible to vainquish Tiamat in 5e, do you?

Although I am pleased they finally managed to make gods you can't solo (at least to my knowledge).



Heck, I remember when Lolth had 66 hit points.

Well, Lolth was a very minor demon lord at the time, wasn't she?



Quit with the non-sequiturs already.

There was no non-sequitur.

[LudicSavant]

Well, Lolth was a very minor demon lord at the time, wasn't she?
The stat block explicitly lists her as a goddess.


There was no non-sequitur
:smallsigh:

[Unoriginal]

. The stat block explicitly lists her as a goddess, and she’s trying to destroy the material plane.

My bad, then.

[QUOTE=LudicSavant;23511271]
Also, the whole argument you’re making doesn’t appear to address my original point in the first place. You can point at Superman and rightly say he’s better at things than people (including many canonical D&D gods, especially in certain continuities...), but no specific unique superpower will suddenly prove to everyone that he’s something more than a powerful creature.

Superman is a hero, and when handled by decent writers he's an ideal too. Not because he's powerful, but because he's a genuinely good-hearted person who does what he can to make the world a better place.

But can he grant super-powers to people? Can he do so to various people on different planets without being physically present? Can he look over several worlds at once? Can he answer to worshipers' prayers with miraculous interventions across both space and alternate dimensions? And can he shepherd the souls of the dead toward a domain of his own making based around the ideal he represent? Can he be an ideal inherent to the world for those people?

Answer: he cannot.

In D&D, Acererak is an incredibly powerful Lich, and he's impressive enough some people have devoted a cult to him. He also bested gods in some occasions. But he's still one person, with the limitations of one person, to the point that

the best way to defeat him is to simply not activate his alarm when foiling his plans.

I can see why it may seem like an alien mindset, but I get the impression there is a tendency to see worshiping entities like the D&D gods as something shameful, just because they're not omnipotent immaterial beings.

[LudicSavant]

Superman is a hero, and when handled by decent writers he's an ideal too. Which kind of makes my point for me that someone can be an ideal without being a god, so the whole thing is a tangent and the conclusion doesn’t follow from the premises.


But can he grant super-powers to people? He does this a few times.


Can he look over several worlds at once? He hears a cry for help in another galaxy at one point.


Can he answer to worshipers' prayers with miraculous interventions across both space and alternate dimensions? How many old Superman comics have you read?



Answer: he cannot.

:Facedesk:

Edit: For those unaware, Superman’s power varies a lot by continuity and writer. In some worlds he does things like “stop all crime on earth 24/7 while keeping tabs on literally everyone not behind special shielding” and that’s not even the highest end feats. And he has crazy stuff like the ability to warp space, “hear” at intergalactic distances, time travel, and more. Supes is often OP.

Anyways, if we list off enough powers we’re bound to find one he doesn’t actually have, but then we can just head over to other nongod characters like Reed Richards’s son or cosmic beings or basically anyone who picks up enough infinity stones or whatever.

Point is that no set of specific powers will suddenly make the jump from “really powerful creature” to “rigorously proven to be a god and if you don’t admit it you’re delusional.”

[Millstone85]

This reminds me of Stargate SG-1.

One of the main themes of the series was aliens passing for gods. In particular, the Goa'uld had powers like superhuman health, hereditary memory, and the ability to jump from host to host, plus all manners of technologies they stole from other aliens. They used all that to start cults around themselves.

But in the last couple seasons, the show introduced the Ori, who were straight-up fantasy gods. Energy beings, powered by collective faith, able to turn people into Priors so they perform miracles in their name. It made the protagonists' job of "It is just an advanced tool, see?" considerably more complicated.

[Louro]

- So... You believe in Tempus right?
- Indeed. War and battle have been pushing civilization forward since the beginning of times. No better way of proving your value than defeating your enemies.
- I see your point, but I do believe order is what truly makes an empire shine. Even war is ruled by order, a good army is not only about good soldiers, but about everyone fulfilling his duties. Thus I worship Tyr.

In D&D "believe" could perfectly be tied to God's ideals. So you believe in your god goals/ideals.

[Knaight]

How do I get a character, who is agnotic/atheistic to believe in a God? Premise is the characters never knew gods, and now this is character suddenly thrown into a world where gods are known and worshiped and now that character is there. This player wants this character to be a Cleric, and is trying to follow a God, but doesn't really worship that God. This person sees it as more trying to get to know the God, and befriend it, than actually worship it.

First things first - "God" is only capitalized if it's a name. It's just "a god" in this context, given that there's a whole lot of them, none of whom are named "God".

The premise also pretty much answers itself. When the character never saw any evidence of a god they didn't come to the conclusion that there was a god. Now that they've seen clear evidence of at least one god they've come to the conclusion that there is at least one god. As for the matter of worship, that's an entirely different point. Thinking that a divine entity exists and worshipping it are two entirely different things, and that only gets stronger in a setting where any given person has a number of gods closer to enemy than benefactor.

[Unoriginal]

Point is that no set of specific powers will suddenly make the jump from “really powerful creature” to “rigorously proven to be a god and if you don’t admit it you’re delusional.”

This would be true, IF being a god was about being really powerful rather than *in which way* they have power.

D&D gods don't deserve worship because they're at a specific rank of "powerful beings", they get worship because mortals get something in return, be it inspiration, protection in life or afterlife, or the occasional blessing.

There are beings on the same cosmic scale as the gods who don't give jack **** to the mortals.

On worlds like Eberron, where the gods are too distant for people to be sure they exist, fair. But "I believe that there are powerful mutli-planar entities, and some of them do grant power to their worshipers, but they're not gods" run into the problem that "god" is just a fancy way of saying "mutli-planar entities who grant power to their worshipers".

It's like saying "I do believe that there are people who can acquire magic by studying and recording complex researches in their books, but they're not wizards."

[LudicSavant]

On worlds like Eberron, where the gods are too distant for people to be sure they exist, fair.
Every Eberron example I gave involves a creature you can walk up and meet. They can even demonstrate some of the “ways of power” you say identifies a god (more of them than some gods from some other dnd settings, even).


But "I believe that there are powerful mutli-planar entities, and some of them do grant power to their worshipers, but they're not gods" run into the problem that "god" is just a fancy way of saying "mutli-planar entities who grant power to their worshipers". But there are things in DnD that are said not to be gods that do this! What makes one spell granter a god and another not?


It's like saying "I do believe that there are people who can acquire magic by studying and recording complex researches in their books, but they're not wizards."

Yep I believe in Archivists and Tomelocks and such, too!

[jingizu999]

The following is my opinion, and your mileage will vary. In the end it's your game, your world, your rules.

A few people seem to be conflating Agnosticism and Atheism. They are not the same at all. Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of the statement "God exists" is unknowable. The term was coined by Thomas Henry Huxley who said "It simply means that a man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe." Of course there have been extensive treatises on Agnostic thought since at least the 5th century BCE, even if they didn't have a term for it. The Athiest and the Thiest are both believers. The Thiest believes that God exists without proof. The Athiest believes that God does not exist, again without proof. The Agnostic acknowledges that the existence of God is not subject to proof, it is instead a matter of faith.

In D&D terms the physical presence of the gods makes things more complex. I would say a D&D agnostic is someone who doesn't so much question the existence of beings known a "the gods" but whether they are divine and worthy of worship. After all, Elminster can cast wish, but it doesn't make him a God. It's made even worse by the ability of mortals to ascend to godhood, further bluring the separation between mortal and divine. To use Helm as an example, an agnostic character could easily accept the existence of Helm. Helm can literally appear and toss the character across a room. He accepts the powers of Helm. His power is manifest in his clerics and paladins and he can show up and cast reality bending spells. However, an agnostic character would not accept Helm's divinity as a given. As a mortal being it is impossible for the character to determine the difference between a divine being and a massively powerful being, and it would be a matter of the character's personal ideals whether power is enough reason to worship someone. Believing Helm or any of the other "Gods" are divine is a matter of faith, and a question of the definition of God.

For reference material I would suggest The Redemption of Althalus by David Eddings. Althalus is the quintesential example of the agnostic hero. He hasn't been impressed by any of the gods that people believe in, and only trusts luck. Unfortunately, while he doesn't believe in the gods, they definitely believe in him. Whether he likes it or not. Magic works differently, as instead of being granted powers by the gods Althalus studies to learn how the gods perform magic. They're just better at it than he is. Even then he never "worships" anyone in the traditional sense. He has an "alternative arrangement."

If the OP's character is trying to get to know and befriend the god, I would assume there is some sort of direct contact, rather than, for example, sitting in a temple looking at a statue of Helm and saying "Want to be friends?" In a case like this I would assume the god has some sort of interest in the character, maybe they saved a temple and worshipers, somehow upheld the gods ideals in spectacular fashion, etc. As for transitioning from friendship to worship, I don't know that I'd bother. I think the more interesting character is the cleric who sees and acknowledges the gods flaws rather than blindly worshiping them, but follows their teachings because they believe they are right.

[LudicSavant]

For reference material I would suggest The Redemption of Althalus by David Eddings. Hey, I remember reading that, approximately one forever ago.

[zinycor]

I want to transition this character into truly believing and worshiping in this God.

Why?


This player wants this character to be a Cleric, and is trying to follow a God, but doesn't really worship that God. This person sees it as more trying to get to know the God, and befriend it, than actually worship it.

If the player sees being a cleric as befriending a God... What is wrong with that?

Is it relevant to your story that the god must be worshipped? if so, How?

[Millstone85]

First things first - "God" is only capitalized if it's a name. It's just "a god" in this context, given that there's a whole lot of them, none of whom are named "God".It is a lost cause. People also keep writing "an Atheist" and "an Agnostic" for some reason.

[LudicSavant]

It is a lost cause. People also keep writing "an Atheist" and "an Agnostic" for some reason.

Ugh I know it’s the worst.