Barbarian vs. Paladin. Tier1 Low level PVP.

[jdolch]

Single class Paladin vs single class Barbarian. Low level PVP. Who would win and why?

- You can choose any subclass, just state your reasons.
- Low level is defined as 5 or lower. (You can also go by levels. e.g. lv1 vs lv1, lv2 vs lv2, etc.)

(This isn't a pro and contra pvp debate. We're talking pure mechanics here)

[Galithar]

Whoever wins the initiative roll, with a higher tendency of Paladin wins at level 5. (Extra Attack is worth more when a smite it's attached) EDIT: With the exception I forgot until I made a mock battle Bear totem Barb will almost always win so long as they get to rage.

Other then that you'll get no true and relevant data. PvP is not what D&D is designed for. You'll get a better comparison of their true fighting abilities if you pit each of them against the same CR 5 creature and hypothesize who wins more often.


But for ****s and giggles here's a mock battle with starting gear (actually rolled)

Paladin 44 HP AC 17 (heavy) PAM
Barbarian 55 HP AC 15 (unarmored) GWM

Barbarian wins initiative.

Rage - move to attack
Triggers PAM attack from Paladin
Hit - Smite - Damage 1d12 + 2d8 + 3
26 (Resisted by Bear for 13)
Barbarian 42 HP
Barbarian attacks recklessly and GWM -5/+10
Crit and a hit
4d6+13+2d6+13
47 damage the Paladin is dead.

That was boring :P poor Paladin.

[Man_Over_Game]

Barbarian, hands down. The Paladin has some utility and some extra AC, but that's fairly negligible compared to the Barbarian's damage resistance.

Personally, I'd go Berserker. Try dealing with (2d6+2+4)x2 with advantage every turn. That's 26 damage. All the weapon damage the Paladin deals will result in being resisted, so you better hope your 3 Divine Smites are enough to kill this mofo, but I don't think you'll live past turn 2.

Great Weapon Master might just make it end turn 1. Or just grab Mage Slayer and watch all that fancy pansy magic training go to waste.





Whoever wins the initiative roll, with a higher tendency of Paladin wins at level 5. (Extra Attack is worth more when a smite it's attached)

Other then that you'll get no true and relevant data. PvP is not what D&D is designed for. You'll get a better comparison of their true fighting abilities if you pit each of them against the same CR 5 creature and hypothesize who wins more often.

This guy needs to remember to read the fine print:

(This isn't a pro and contra pvp debate. We're talking pure mechanics here)

[Jamesps]

Barbarian's tough to beat without debilitating them with magic. I'd have to do the math, but possibly a defensively focused paladin might stand a chance against a barbarian if they use shield of faith and managed to snag plate armor. Ideally at lvl 3 before the barbarian got their first strength bump, though plate armor that early is rare.

Without that, I'd say the barbarian is favored at low levels. At higher levels the paladin could just fling a hold person spell and call it a day.

[Galithar]

This guy needs to remember to read the fine print:

This guy needs to remember that regardless of any "fine print" when the question is literally "who wins" that's exactly what you're going to get, an analysis of who wins. Which I gave and then offered a suggestion of a different scenario that would be more capable of bringing to light the mechanical advantages and disadvantages of each class, because PvP cares the most about 2 things. Who gets the first turn and do the die let them hit.

[GlenSmash!]

The Paladins biggest pro is it's aura which is useless in a one on one and doesn't com online until level 6.

Barb on the other hand is pretty well geared toward one on one as their biggest weakness, disadvantage from Reckless Attack gets exponentially worse the more enemies you through at it.

In single one on one fight I think I'd pick a Half Orc Berserker as the 3rd attack is pretty huge and Half Orc will let be take an extra hit when it counts.

[jdolch]

How would Aura of Protection help against Weapon Attacks ? Never mind. I misread that sentence.

If you're an OoV Paladin you actually get Hold Person at level 5. Thanks for the tip.

Also 17AC is a bit measly. Even with just starting chainmail, shield and defense style, it's already 19.

[stoutstien]

Honestly a Dex barb is scary one on one. Even without rage damage or reckless it could kite fairly well.

[LudicSavant]

Personally, I'd go Berserker. Try dealing with (2d6+2+4)x2 with advantage every turn.

"Every turn?" A Berserker can't even use their bonus action attack on the round they activate rage.

And staying in rage is a bigger "if" than some people seem to assume. If you go one round without making an attack or getting damaged, you lose your rage.

[lunaticfringe]

"Every turn?" A Berserker can't even use their bonus action attack on the round they activate rage.

And staying in rage is a bigger "if" than some people seem to assume. If you go one round without making an attack or getting damaged, you lose your rage.

Yup. Devotion has Sanctuary & Barbarians aren't known for their stellar Wis Saves

[strangebloke]

This is completely silly.

Aaracockra built for range dominates all other builds at low level, regardless of class.

If they're both aaracockra (or some other flying race), the barbarian wins due to faster movement and rage resistance, unless the paladin wins initiative and has something like sentinel. And then the barbarian still wins if he is an eagle totem barb.

There's your answer. You happy?

[LudicSavant]

This is completely silly.

It really is. The OP hasn't given us anything resembling proper ground rules for a fight here (stat / equipment generation, terrain, whether aarakocra are allowed, whether we're expected to use builds that are specifically optimized for defeating each other or whether they should be things people might actually use in a real game, etc etc). Hasn't even stuck to a single level. Frankly all of the variables are up in the air so it's hard to call anything either way.

[Spiritchaser]

Hold person is available to a vengeance paladin at level 5

I would imagine that levels 1-4 you’d be in trouble as a paladin, 5 might be pretty rough for the barb

[Galithar]

It really is. The OP hasn't given us anything resembling proper ground rules for a fight here (stat / equipment generation, terrain, whether aarakocra are allowed, whether we're expected to use builds that are specifically optimized for defeating each other or whether they should be things people might actually use in a real game, etc etc). Hasn't even stuck to a single level. Frankly all of the variables are up in the air so it's hard to call anything either way.

That's why everyone should pick a random level and random builds and roll out a conflict using whatever strategies your want!
It doesn't give any useful data but it could be fun to see how peoples mock battle go.

[jdolch]

Seeing as the whole point of the thread was to have people come up with ideas, I'd say it is very much not silly.

I for one have a much better picture now of what possibilities exist than i did before. Granted my point was to have a normal scenario rather than people specifically cheesing the situation with flying races. But I didn't know that was even an option so i didn't include it in the rules and now I know better, which was the whole point of this thread.

[sithlordnergal]

So, before we make any comparisons, lets put these guys on a playing field. Here's how I'll set it up:


Standard Point Buy
Standard Human Race
Nothing from splat books, PHB only
HP is the average for the class
NO FEATS, this of course means no Variant Human
NO MULTICLASSING
Combatants start 50 feet from each other.
The builds are Totem Barbarian and Vengeance Paladin
The Barbarian has 5 handaxes the Paladin has no ranged weapons




Strength: 16

Dex: 10

Con: 14

Int: 10

Wis: 10

Cha: 18


HP: 44

Fighting Style: Defense

AC: 21, from Plate, a Shield, and Defense

To Hit Bonus: +6

Weapon: Longsword/Battleaxe/Warhammer

Spell/Channel Divinity DC: 15

Lay on Hands: 25hp

Spell Slots: 4/2




Str: 16

Dex: 14

Con: 18

Int: 9

Wis: 12

Cha: 9


HP: 60

AC: 18, Con Mod+Dex Mod, Shield

To Hit Bonus: +6

Rages: 3

Has access to Reckless Attack


Now, I am sure you guys may be wondering a few things. Well, here are some answers to potential questions:

- I am doing Point Buy with Human race so as to put them on an even playing field while also allowing for a small amount of variation between ability scores. They can be unique combatants without having anything game changing

-I am starting them 50ft away from each other so that they must use a Dash action to reach each other. This prevents the encounter from coming down to whoever rolls the higher initiative winning. Going first still has an advantage, but the Barbarian cannot use a double Reckless attack and the Paladin cannot smite before the other side has a moment to do something

-I gave the Barbarian 5 Throwing Axes in order to bring some sort of balance against the Paladin's ranged spells and channel divinity. Even if the Barbarian is unable to get close, they can still do something. But since handaxe have the thrown property, the Barbarian can only throw one at a time unless they already have a handaxe drawn.

-I increased Con and Charisma over something like Strength because I find 16 Strength works perfectly fine until high tiers, and for the purpose of this matchup I felt Charisma and Constitution would prove more valuable.

-I did what I could to max out both the Barbarian and Paladin's ACs in order to make them both as tanky as possible.

-No feats, no multiclassing are there for the simple reason to make things easier for everyone involved. If I allowed feats or multiclassing, then the fight would be impossible to predict because of how powerful feats are, and how game changing multiclassing is.

With all that prepwork out of the way, we can get onto the match:

Now, at first glance I will admit, I thought the Bear Totem Barbarian was a shoe in. The Barbarian can easily pump out enough damage to burn through the Paladin's HP and Lay on Hands before the Paladin cuts through his resistances, provided the Paladin doesn't get any lucky crits in. But then I re-read the Barbarian's Rage ability and two things stuck out. First, the Barbarian can only Rage 3 times during this battle, and second the Barbarian drops out of Rage if "Your Turn ends and you haven't attacked a hostile creature since your last turn or taken damage since then". Therefore, if the Paladin wants to win, they must force the Barbarian out of their Rage.

I then realized that Paladins, especially Vengeance Paladins, have a few ways to do this:

1) All Paladins have access to the Command and Wrathful Smite spells.

2) The Oath of Vengeance has access to Hold Person

3) The Oath of Vengeance has Abjure Enemy as a Channel Divinity option.

All of those can be used to force a Barbarian out of Rage, because all of those hinder a Barbarian's ability to move and attack. Given the Paladin's DC for Spells and Channel Divinity is 15, the Barbarian has a high chance of failing against any of those spells since they only have a +1 to Wisdom saves. And out of all the spells and abilities, only Wrathful Smite deals damage on a hit. All the Paladin needs to do is wait for the Barbarian to Rage, cast Command, and if the Barbarian fails their save then they are out of Rage. Same with Hold Person, wait a turn to let the Barbarian drop out of Rage, and then go to town if they are still being held.

With Wrathful Smite and Abjure Enemy are a bit trickier, but work in the same fashion. Both cause the target to become frightened, so the Barbarian cannot move any closer to attack the Paladin. To make things worse their attack rolls and ability checks are all done at disadvantage. Now, the Barbarian can throw up to 5 handaxes...but those attacks will either be at disadvantage or normal attacks depending on if the Barbarian uses reckless attack, they only have 5 handaxes to use, and each handaxe only does a base damage of 1d6.

And to compound the issue, Wrathful Smite and Abjure Enemy so not end normally like any other spell would. If the Barbarian fails the save for Wrathful Smite, they must use an action make an ability check using Wisdom to beat the Paladin's Spell DC. A check that is done at disadvantage due to the Frightened condition. But if they use their action, then they aren't attacking anyone. And while they did take damage from the attack you have to make to deliver Wrathful Smite's effect, there's no reason for the Paladin to attack on the next turn. They can simply disengage, move away, and the Barbarian can't do anything but throw handaxes at disadvantage until they lose Rage.

Abjure Enemy is even worse. It only ends if you are attacked, you're Frightened, and your speed is set to 0 if you fail the saving throw. Even if you succeed the saving throw, your speed is halved. Making it very difficult to catch up to a Paladin that simply decides to play the waiting game and wait out your Rage.

Adding to those issues is the fact that the Paladin can heal using Lay on Hands or Cure Wounds. And given this paladin is a defensive tank with 21AC, the above Barbarian will need to roll a 15 or higher to hit them. And most of the Barbarian's attacks will likely be at disadvantage.

Having said all that, I think the Paladin could actually win provided the Barbarian fails their Wisdom saves and as long as the Paladin uses a proper strategy.


EDIT: That said, if the Paladin decides to just charge in and try to brute force their way through the Barbarian's HP, they will lose that match. But if the Paladin simply uses Command: Halt to get rid of the 3 Rages, at best the Paladin will have 1 first level slot to smite with and 2 second level slots. Without adding in crits, that's an average of 36 to 37 damage from those slots, which does knock the barbarian below half health

[jdolch]

Thank you for this interesting Analysis.

[UnintensifiedFa]

I think sithlordnergal said it best. A barbarian wins in a brute force damage dealing/absorbing fight. But if the fight becomes much more tactical, it swings to the advantage of the paladin. Not much you can do against those spells except roll well. Bear totem is the best bet against a paladin. Because brezerker will suffer exhaustion for those rages the paladin ended.

Now at a lower level (say 3) Paladins lower spell slots may come to the Barbarians advantage, while the barbarian still gets bear totem resistance.

At 1st level it’s a win for the barbarian again, because at that point the paladinnis just a glorified fighter.

[LudicSavant]

Seeing as the whole point of the thread was to have people come up with ideas, I'd say it is very much not silly.

I for one have a much better picture now of what possibilities exist than i did before. Granted my point was to have a normal scenario rather than people specifically cheesing the situation with flying races. But I didn't know that was even an option so i didn't include it in the rules and now I know better, which was the whole point of this thread.

I guess that makes sense. Well then, in the interest of education on what possibilities exist:


Barbarian, hands down. The Paladin has some utility and some extra AC, but that's fairly negligible compared to the Barbarian's damage resistance.

Personally, I'd go Berserker. Try dealing with (2d6+2+4)x2 with advantage every turn. That's 26 damage. All the weapon damage the Paladin deals will result in being resisted, so you better hope your 3 Divine Smites are enough to kill this mofo, but I don't think you'll live past turn 2.

Great Weapon Master might just make it end turn 1. Or just grab Mage Slayer and watch all that fancy pansy magic training go to waste.

I already pointed out the problem with this "extra attack with advantage every turn" notion, but there are other problems with this strategy too.

For example, Great Weapon Master is a highly questionable decision. Even if you have 18 Strength and are Reckless Attacking, the -5/+10 option is losing DPR if the enemy has 18+ AC. If you have 16 Strength (which is more likely at a point where the Paladin has only 3 divine smites, e.g. level 3) then you're losing DPR at only 17 AC while Reckless Attacking. You can't even benefit from the crit bonus because your bonus action is spoken for. Why would you do this to yourself?

You're basically just shooting yourself in the foot.

[GlenSmash!]

So, before we make any comparisons, lets put these guys on a playing field. Here's how I'll set it up:


Standard Point Buy
Standard Human Race
Nothing from splat books, PHB only
HP is the average for the class
NO FEATS, this of course means no Variant Human
NO MULTICLASSING
Combatants start 50 feet from each other.
The builds are Totem Barbarian and Vengeance Paladin
The Barbarian has 5 handaxes the Paladin has no ranged weapons




Strength: 16

Dex: 10

Con: 14

Int: 10

Wis: 10

Cha: 18


HP: 44

Fighting Style: Defense

AC: 21, from Plate, a Shield, and Defense

To Hit Bonus: +6

Weapon: Longsword/Battleaxe/Warhammer

Spell/Channel Divinity DC: 15

Lay on Hands: 25hp

Spell Slots: 4/2




Str: 16

Dex: 14

Con: 18

Int: 9

Wis: 12

Cha: 9


HP: 60

AC: 18, Con Mod+Dex Mod, Shield

To Hit Bonus: +6

Rages: 3

Has access to Reckless Attack


Now, I am sure you guys may be wondering a few things. Well, here are some answers to potential questions:

- I am doing Point Buy with Human race so as to put them on an even playing field while also allowing for a small amount of variation between ability scores. They can be unique combatants without having anything game changing

-I am starting them 50ft away from each other so that they must use a Dash action to reach each other. This prevents the encounter from coming down to whoever rolls the higher initiative winning. Going first still has an advantage, but the Barbarian cannot use a double Reckless attack and the Paladin cannot smite before the other side has a moment to do something

-I gave the Barbarian 5 Throwing Axes in order to bring some sort of balance against the Paladin's ranged spells and channel divinity. Even if the Barbarian is unable to get close, they can still do something. But since handaxe have the thrown property, the Barbarian can only throw one at a time unless they already have a handaxe drawn.

-I increased Con and Charisma over something like Strength because I find 16 Strength works perfectly fine until high tiers, and for the purpose of this matchup I felt Charisma and Constitution would prove more valuable.

-I did what I could to max out both the Barbarian and Paladin's ACs in order to make them both as tanky as possible.

-No feats, no multiclassing are there for the simple reason to make things easier for everyone involved. If I allowed feats or multiclassing, then the fight would be impossible to predict because of how powerful feats are, and how game changing multiclassing is.

With all that prepwork out of the way, we can get onto the match:

Now, at first glance I will admit, I thought the Bear Totem Barbarian was a shoe in. The Barbarian can easily pump out enough damage to burn through the Paladin's HP and Lay on Hands before the Paladin cuts through his resistances, provided the Paladin doesn't get any lucky crits in. But then I re-read the Barbarian's Rage ability and two things stuck out. First, the Barbarian can only Rage 3 times during this battle, and second the Barbarian drops out of Rage if "Your Turn ends and you haven't attacked a hostile creature since your last turn or taken damage since then". Therefore, if the Paladin wants to win, they must force the Barbarian out of their Rage.

I then realized that Paladins, especially Vengeance Paladins, have a few ways to do this:

1) All Paladins have access to the Command and Wrathful Smite spells.

2) The Oath of Vengeance has access to Hold Person

3) The Oath of Vengeance has Abjure Enemy as a Channel Divinity option.

All of those can be used to force a Barbarian out of Rage, because all of those hinder a Barbarian's ability to move and attack. Given the Paladin's DC for Spells and Channel Divinity is 15, the Barbarian has a high chance of failing against any of those spells since they only have a +1 to Wisdom saves. And out of all the spells and abilities, only Wrathful Smite deals damage on a hit. All the Paladin needs to do is wait for the Barbarian to Rage, cast Command, and if the Barbarian fails their save then they are out of Rage. Same with Hold Person, wait a turn to let the Barbarian drop out of Rage, and then go to town if they are still being held.

With Wrathful Smite and Abjure Enemy are a bit trickier, but work in the same fashion. Both cause the target to become frightened, so the Barbarian cannot move any closer to attack the Paladin. To make things worse their attack rolls and ability checks are all done at disadvantage. Now, the Barbarian can throw up to 5 handaxes...but those attacks will either be at disadvantage or normal attacks depending on if the Barbarian uses reckless attack, they only have 5 handaxes to use, and each handaxe only does a base damage of 1d6.

And to compound the issue, Wrathful Smite and Abjure Enemy so not end normally like any other spell would. If the Barbarian fails the save for Wrathful Smite, they must use an action make an ability check using Wisdom to beat the Paladin's Spell DC. A check that is done at disadvantage due to the Frightened condition. But if they use their action, then they aren't attacking anyone. And while they did take damage from the attack you have to make to deliver Wrathful Smite's effect, there's no reason for the Paladin to attack on the next turn. They can simply disengage, move away, and the Barbarian can't do anything but throw handaxes at disadvantage until they lose Rage.

Abjure Enemy is even worse. It only ends if you are attacked, you're Frightened, and your speed is set to 0 if you fail the saving throw. Even if you succeed the saving throw, your speed is halved. Making it very difficult to catch up to a Paladin that simply decides to play the waiting game and wait out your Rage.

Adding to those issues is the fact that the Paladin can heal using Lay on Hands or Cure Wounds. And given this paladin is a defensive tank with 21AC, the above Barbarian will need to roll a 15 or higher to hit them. And most of the Barbarian's attacks will likely be at disadvantage.

Having said all that, I think the Paladin could actually win provided the Barbarian fails their Wisdom saves and as long as the Paladin uses a proper strategy.


EDIT: That said, if the Paladin decides to just charge in and try to brute force their way through the Barbarian's HP, they will lose that match. But if the Paladin simply uses Command: Halt to get rid of the 3 Rages, at best the Paladin will have 1 first level slot to smite with and 2 second level slots. Without adding in crits, that's an average of 36 to 37 damage from those slots, which does knock the barbarian below half health

Nice analysis. I think the Paladin has a much harder time in this if the Barbarian is making use of that 14 Dex with a Longbow as the Longbow has a greater Range than the Paladin abilities and spells. It's even worse if instead of Bear Totem he's an Eagle Totem Dashing as a bonus action.

So while it's more advantageous for the Paladin to hang back and sling spells at the Raging Barbarian it's also more advantageous for the Barbarian to hang back and whittle the Paladin down with a Greater change of hitting at far Range.

Edit: Of course that puts us back in just be an aaracockra territory.

[sithlordnergal]

Nice analysis. I think the Paladin has a much harder time in this if the Barbarian is making use of that 14 Dex with a Longbow as the Longbow has a greater Range than the Paladin abilities and spells. It's even worse if instead of Bear Totem he's an Eagle Totem Dashing as a bonus action.

So while it's more advantageous for the Paladin to hang back and sling spells at the Raging Barbarian it's also more advantageous for the Barbarian to hang back and whittle the Paladin down with a Greater change of hitting at far Range.

Edit: Of course that puts us back in just be an aaracockra territory.

True, having a longbow would mitigate a lot of the problems the Barbarian might have, and being able to Dash as a bonus action would help deal with the Half Speed from Abjure Enemy and the 50ft starting distance. They'd still need to deal with Disadvantage and being unable to move closer to the Paladin due to potential Frightened effects, and Command/Hold Person would shut them down. But it would help the Barbarian do better.

[GlenSmash!]

True, having a longbow would mitigate a lot of the problems the Barbarian might have, and being able to Dash as a bonus action would help deal with the Half Speed from Abjure Enemy and the 50ft starting distance. They'd still need to deal with Disadvantage and being unable to move closer to the Paladin due to potential Frightened effects, and Command/Hold Person would shut them down. But it would help the Barbarian do better.

If you start the fight further 60 feet away (more than 90 ft away to really be sure) they wouldn't even have to deal with Abjure Enemy, Command, or Hold person.

Man these 1 on 1 fights have so many variables beyond Race, Class, level. :smalleek:

[strangebloke]

Nice analysis. I think the Paladin has a much harder time in this if the Barbarian is making use of that 14 Dex with a Longbow as the Longbow has a greater Range than the Paladin abilities and spells. It's even worse if instead of Bear Totem he's an Eagle Totem Dashing as a bonus action.

So while it's more advantageous for the Paladin to hang back and sling spells at the Raging Barbarian it's also more advantageous for the Barbarian to hang back and whittle the Paladin down with a Greater change of hitting at far Range.

Edit: Of course that puts us back in just be an aaracockra territory.

EXACTLY.

The 'best' builds for this challenge (ignoring feats and multiclassing) are:

Aaracockra Eagle Totem Barbarian 5
8/18/16/8/16/8
AC:17
HP:55
attack:+7
initiative:+4
WIS save: +3

Strategy:
dash
rage
run 120 feet away.
on next turn, shoot and bonus action dash away.
repeat previous step until dead


Aaracockra Vengeance Paladin 5
9/18/16/8/10/14
AC:16
HP:49
attack:+7(duel-wielding short swords)
initiative:+4
DC: 13

Strategy:
run into range (if needed) cast hold person. Mount helps with getting in range, but other spells and abilities are pretty much irrelevant.
run up to paralyzed enemy, smite repeatedly until dead.


the breakdown

Case 1: Barb wins initiative (50%)

Barb dashes 120 feet away straight into the sky and rages.

Paladin rides mount to space directly under barbarian, then dashes up to him. Without dashing he is 70 feet away, so he can't cast hold person. If he does dash, he doesn't do anything that round but fall further behind. So he probably pulls out a bow and shoots the barbarian.

Eventually, the barbarian's damage resistance, superior AC and superior HP carry the day. Barbarian Wins

Case 2: Paladin wins initiative. (50%)

Paladin runs to barb and casts hold person. He can use vow of emnity on the barbarian as well, but it doesn't do anything. If he's at range he still loses, and if his hold person goes off it doesn't do anything.

Case 2a: Barb succeeds on save (27.25%)

Barb shrugs off the spell and runs flies 120 feet away. He will never be in range of the paladin's abilities again, and his damage resistance, higher AC and higher HP carry the day. Barbarian wins

Case 2b: Barb fails save (22.25%)

Barb is paralyzed. The paladin can attack three times, with advantage giving him a 79.75% hit rate on each attack and the paralysis making each hit an auto-crit. Each hit deals 18(4d8) radiant damage and 4-6 slashing damage. Since he has two rounds, the paladin pretty much always gets the kill here, having 6 attacks at least to kill his opponent, and only needing 2-3. Paladin Wins

Summary:

Paladin wins 22.25% of the time, Barb wins the rest. Feats don't really change anything. The paladin goes for mobile, which would boost his chances to 45% (since he's guaranteed to be able to cast hold person), except that the barbarian goes for resilient:Wis, which lowers the Paladin's chances back down to 30%.

Constrained Area

In a constrained area the barbarian is probably best off as rock gnome bear barbarian. The paladin is probably a Dexterity based half-elf vengeance paladin. Hold person is unlikely to take thanks to gnomish magic resistance, which leaves this as a straight slugfest. Unsure of the 'optimal' strategy here, but TBH the paladin probably doesn't do too well.

Both sides will have advantage no matter what, so things like abjure enemy don't really mean much. That means that as the fight goes on, this fight is purely a battle between bonus smite damage, bonus rage damage, and rage resistance. I don't think I need to say how that works out. Once again, the paladin needs to win initiative and play very aggressively. If he can rush in and deal tons of damage before the rage goes up, he can win. I'm not going to speculate on what the best build is, but I'd guess that the paladin goes heavily into dexterity, which lets him win initiative a bit more often.

[Bloodcloud]

Well, Beserker at level 6 removes a lot of those option though, by getting immunity to fear. Of course by that point, hold person is in play. At level 6, the Barb has more rage than the paladin has spells to stop it. So paladin might be better off casting hold person, hopes it lasts a bit, and burn crit smites.

So yeah, barring flying race and run away and kite sheananigan, variant human polarm/sentinel combo would be lethal. Barring that too (or assuming both go polarm), wether the paladin gets his hold person to stick will decide at level 6+ in a slugfest. Starting level 2-5, the paladin's got a shot with wrathful smite to unrage the barb and win (and bypass resistance of even the bear with sweet psychic damage)

Aaand i just realized level 6 is out of bound. Forget the first part.

[Louro]

- I COMMAND YOU TO DROP YOUR SWORD!
Pally takes sword.
- I COMMAND YOU TO KNEEL BEFORE ME!
Barbie loses 2nd rage.
- I COMMAND YOU TO WATCH HOW AWESOME I AM!
Barbie loses 3rd rage.
- I COMMAND YOU TO DIE!
Also known as "smite"

[strangebloke]

- I COMMAND YOU TO DROP YOUR SWORD!
Pally takes sword.
- I COMMAND YOU TO KNEEL BEFORE ME!
Barbie loses 2nd rage.
- I COMMAND YOU TO WATCH HOW AWESOME I AM!
Barbie loses 3rd rage.
- I COMMAND YOU TO DIE!
Also known as "smite"

Lol, even ignoring how this barb fails twice in a row when he should have better than 50% odds...

...what self-respecting character only has one weapon?

[Louro]

Lol, even ignoring how this barb fails twice in a row when he should have better than 50% odds...

...what self-respecting character only has one weapon?

99% of barbarians I know.

[Kete]

Hello guys.

New Ravnica spells allows the Paladin to cast CALM EMOTIONS SPELL!

Well, It's over.

[Kete]

Also, Ensnaring Strike against "flying" barbarian. The dex barbarian falls.

[jdolch]

Ok, I am starting to get the picture. Just out of Interest: Is there a Level after which the Paladin gets stronger than the Barbarian or is it basically just: Barbarian > Paladin (strictly talking PVP!)?

Edit: And lets just stop with the Flying Race Stuff. It's totally legit and we can all agree how that helps you with Anti-melee, but i think we can also agree that if you pick those, 99% of the time you are trying to cheese the game.

[GlenSmash!]

99% of barbarians I know.

Good heavens! My current Barbarian has a greatsword, 2 handaxes, five javelins, and a longbow with quiver of arrows. He has an Int of 9, but he ain't stupid enough to carry only one weapon.

Hell I've played far more Barbarians than any other class over the course of 5e and I've never had one of them only use a single weapon.

[LudicSavant]

EXACTLY.

The 'best' builds for this challenge (ignoring feats and multiclassing) are:

Aaracockra Eagle Totem Barbarian 5
8/18/16/8/16/8
AC:17
HP:55
attack:+7
initiative:+4
WIS save: +3

Strategy:
dash
rage
run 120 feet away.
on next turn, shoot and bonus action dash away.
repeat previous step until dead


Aaracockra Vengeance Paladin 5
9/18/16/8/10/14
AC:16
HP:49
attack:+7(duel-wielding short swords)
initiative:+4
DC: 13

Strategy:
run into range (if needed) cast hold person. Mount helps with getting in range, but other spells and abilities are pretty much irrelevant.
run up to paralyzed enemy, smite repeatedly until dead.


the breakdown

Case 1: Barb wins initiative (50%)

Barb dashes 120 feet away straight into the sky and rages.

Paladin rides mount to space directly under barbarian, then dashes up to him. Without dashing he is 70 feet away, so he can't cast hold person. If he does dash, he doesn't do anything that round but fall further behind. So he probably pulls out a bow and shoots the barbarian.

Eventually, the barbarian's damage resistance, superior AC and superior HP carry the day. Barbarian Wins

Case 2: Paladin wins initiative. (50%)

Paladin runs to barb and casts hold person. He can use vow of emnity on the barbarian as well, but it doesn't do anything. If he's at range he still loses, and if his hold person goes off it doesn't do anything.

Case 2a: Barb succeeds on save (27.25%)

Barb shrugs off the spell and runs flies 120 feet away. He will never be in range of the paladin's abilities again, and his damage resistance, higher AC and higher HP carry the day. Barbarian wins

Case 2b: Barb fails save (22.25%)

Barb is paralyzed. The paladin can attack three times, with advantage giving him a 79.75% hit rate on each attack and the paralysis making each hit an auto-crit. Each hit deals 18(4d8) radiant damage and 4-6 slashing damage. Since he has two rounds, the paladin pretty much always gets the kill here, having 6 attacks at least to kill his opponent, and only needing 2-3. Paladin Wins

Summary:

Paladin wins 22.25% of the time, Barb wins the rest. Feats don't really change anything. The paladin goes for mobile, which would boost his chances to 45% (since he's guaranteed to be able to cast hold person), except that the barbarian goes for resilient:Wis, which lowers the Paladin's chances back down to 30%.

Constrained Area

In a constrained area the barbarian is probably best off as rock gnome bear barbarian. The paladin is probably a Dexterity based half-elf vengeance paladin. Hold person is unlikely to take thanks to gnomish magic resistance, which leaves this as a straight slugfest. Unsure of the 'optimal' strategy here, but TBH the paladin probably doesn't do too well.

Both sides will have advantage no matter what, so things like abjure enemy don't really mean much. That means that as the fight goes on, this fight is purely a battle between bonus smite damage, bonus rage damage, and rage resistance. I don't think I need to say how that works out. Once again, the paladin needs to win initiative and play very aggressively. If he can rush in and deal tons of damage before the rage goes up, he can win. I'm not going to speculate on what the best build is, but I'd guess that the paladin goes heavily into dexterity, which lets him win initiative a bit more often.

A few things are raising big red flags for me with this analysis. The most notable of which being:

1) Your entire strategy is banked on the Paladin hitting the Barbarian successfully with a save effect, but you basically dumped Charisma to your tertiary stat because... logic? This is just silly right here. No Paladin worth their oaths would ever do this.

2) The Dexadin has no actual need to fly into range of the Barbarian here. In fact they don't even need to be an Aarakocra, because this Barbarian can't actually extend their range beyond the Paladin's ranged weapon attacks. They can just grab some high AC, sit behind some random object on the ground for cover, and both sides plink away... with the Paladin having a substantial AC advantage. The Barbarian will have a very low chance of hitting the Paladin at any given time, whereas the Dexadin has no such issues. Or, if the Paladin decides to give them Disadvantage on their attack rolls, the Barbarian would have to have an awful lot of arrows, since the Paladin can just sit behind 3/4s cover and it takes about a hundred arrows to hit them once for anemic damage.

Heck, the Dexadin could even just use Stealth whenever the Barbarian rages and then tries to start kiting. And all of this is possible even if there's nothing resembling a roof within miles. And if there is a roof, then the kiting strategy just sort of goes away.

3) How are you arriving at these stat spreads? The Aarakocra Barbarian somehow got 16/16/18 at level 5. They have exactly 1 ASI, so they can't do this with standard Point Buy.

[Citan]

Single class Paladin vs single class Barbarian. Low level PVP. Who would win and why?

- You can choose any subclass, just state your reasons.
- Low level is defined as 5 or lower. (You can also go by levels. e.g. lv1 vs lv1, lv2 vs lv2, etc.)

(This isn't a pro and contra pvp debate. We're talking pure mechanics here)

Hi!

My gut reaction would be "the one who wins Initiative"...
But overall Paladin has an edge.
Barbarian is indeed very resilient (especially Bear Barbarian, seems the obvious choice to me here).
But Barbarian is also very stupid (low INT), very self-centered (low WIS) and very self-closed (low CHA), by essence.

So while an Ensnaring Strike from Ancients would obviously be a very bad idea, a simple Wrathful Smite will be enough to give a high chance to shut off Barbarian for long enough to get an advantage in attrition.
At least in an arena fight with large enough space and little cover.

Barb usually have 10 CHA at most. Paladin's spell DC for any normal build would be 8+3+3(4 if Devotion) = 14.
Chance to roll at least a 14? 35%.

And it doesn't care about damage resistance either since the main benefit if frightened: disadvantage on attacks (negates Reckless Attack), prevents affected creature to move willingly closer to source of fear (so the *melee* guy cannot get into melee).

So once Barbarian has been affected, Paladin just has to move beyond 45 feet and then move away more on each turn while using a longbow, preferably amped with Sacred Weapon as a Devotion.
Even if you probably spent at least 2, maybe 3 turns, to set up this, you still have at the very minimum 2 turns with full effect before Barbarian gets a decent chance at ending the effect if he decides to focus on that.

Barbarian's AC will be, at best, medium armor + shield so 19 AC.
Paladin's bonus to hit: 3+3+3 (DEX + proficiency + CHA) = 9, so roughly 50% chance to hit on every weapon attack, and can attack from up to 150 feet without problem with a longbow.

Barbarian's best chance will be to throw javelins at disadvantage, against 17 AC (because DEX based so medium armor, and longbow so no shield), with a +6 bonus.
And he probably don't want to use Reckless Attack either because then he would give advantage to Paladin.
So his best bet is to stand and throw javelins (at disadvantage) on its turn while proning self for Paladin's turn to level the field.
Or try his luck ending the effect with action. Meaning still free shots from Paladin during that time.

The probable conclusion is that both will have made a few attacks hit, with Paladin hitting a bit more, but Barbarian halving damage... Unless Paladin metagames and, knowing rage drops without any damage dealt or suffered, decides to do nothing one turn, forcing Barbarian to use the second rage, and so on.

That's, conversely, one more demonstration on why DEX is overall a better stat than STR on Paladins, especially Devotion ones: Initiative is a big factor in winning. :)

However, if Barbarian wins Initiative and can be in reach of Paladin in normal move, then it's Paladin who's probably toast: activate rage, come in melee thanks to the 40 feet, activate rage with bonus action, Grapple at advantage: even on a STR Paladin, Barbarian can probably manage this by spending both attacks. Obviously easier on a DEX Paladin.
Once that's done, the only chance Paladin has is landing two attacks with two smites on it and getting at least one critical.
Otherwise, Barbarian will have a very high chance of withstanding attacks while dealing his own damage.

[GlenSmash!]

The Dexadin has no actual need to fly into range of the Barbarian here. In fact they don't even need to be an Aarakocra, because this Barbarian can't actually extend their range beyond the Paladin's ranged weapon attacks. They can just grab some high AC, sit behind some random object on the ground for cover, and both sides plink away... with the Paladin having a substantial AC advantage. The Barbarian will have a very low chance of hitting the Paladin at any given time, whereas the Dexadin has no such issues. Or, if the Paladin decides to give them Disadvantage on their attack rolls, the Barbarian would have to have an awful lot of arrows, since the Paladin can just sit behind 3/4s cover and it takes about a hundred arrows to hit them once for anemic damage.

I don't think this is quite true, the Barbarian can dash as a bonus reaction while Raging and even while not raging has higher movement speed and. This does effectively make it's longbow Range superior to the Paladin's by virtue of being able to dart in and out of the equal longbow range at will.

This means the Barbarian has no good reason to just plink away when it has such superior mobility.

[LudicSavant]

I don't think this is quite true, the Barbarian can dash as a bonus reaction while Raging and even while not raging has higher movement speed and. This does effectively make it's longbow Range superior to the Paladin's by virtue of being able to dart in and out of the equal longbow range at will.

You're overlooking the fact that the Paladin can force a plink exchange (albeit while losing an attack) by readying an action.

[GlenSmash!]

Hi!

My gut reaction would be "the one who wins Initiative"...
But overall Paladin has an edge.
Barbarian is indeed very resilient (especially Bear Barbarian, seems the obvious choice to me here).
But Barbarian is also very stupid (low INT), very self-centered (low WIS) and very self-closed (low CHA), by essence.

So while an Ensnaring Strike from Ancients would obviously be a very bad idea, a simple Wrathful Smite will be enough to give a high chance to shut off Barbarian for long enough to get an advantage in attrition.
At least in an arena fight with large enough space and little cover.

Barb usually have 10 CHA at most. Paladin's spell DC for any normal build would be 8+3+3(4 if Devotion) = 14.
Chance to roll at least a 14? 35%.

And it doesn't care about damage resistance either since the main benefit if frightened: disadvantage on attacks (negates Reckless Attack), prevents affected creature to move willingly closer to source of fear (so the *melee* guy cannot get into melee).

So once Barbarian has been affected, Paladin just has to move beyond 45 feet and then move away more on each turn while using a longbow, preferably amped with Sacred Weapon as a Devotion.
Even if you probably spent at least 2, maybe 3 turns, to set up this, you still have at the very minimum 2 turns with full effect before Barbarian gets a decent chance at ending the effect if he decides to focus on that.

Barbarian's AC will be, at best, medium armor + shield so 19 AC.
Paladin's bonus to hit: 3+3+3 (DEX + proficiency + CHA) = 9, so roughly 50% chance to hit on every weapon attack, and can attack from up to 150 feet without problem with a longbow.

Barbarian's best chance will be to throw javelins at disadvantage, against 17 AC (because DEX based so medium armor, and longbow so no shield), with a +6 bonus.
And he probably don't want to use Reckless Attack either because then he would give advantage to Paladin.
So his best bet is to stand and throw javelins (at disadvantage) on its turn while proning self for Paladin's turn to level the field.
Or try his luck ending the effect with action. Meaning still free shots from Paladin during that time.

The probable conclusion is that both will have made a few attacks hit, with Paladin hitting a bit more, but Barbarian halving damage... Unless Paladin metagames and, knowing rage drops without any damage dealt or suffered, decides to do nothing one turn, forcing Barbarian to use the second rage, and so on.

That's, conversely, one more demonstration on why DEX is overall a better stat than STR on Paladins, especially Devotion ones: Initiative is a big factor in winning. :)

However, if Barbarian wins Initiative and can be in reach of Paladin in normal move, then it's Paladin who's probably toast: activate rage, come in melee thanks to the 40 feet, activate rage with bonus action, Grapple at advantage: even on a STR Paladin, Barbarian can probably manage this by spending both attacks. Obviously easier on a DEX Paladin.
Once that's done, the only chance Paladin has is landing two attacks with two smites on it and getting at least one critical.
Otherwise, Barbarian will have a very high chance of withstanding attacks while dealing his own damage.

In your example why isn't the Barbarian also using a Longbow and using his greater movement to stay out of the Paladin's range?

[GlenSmash!]

You're overlooking the fact that the Paladin can force a plink exchange (albeit while losing an attack) by readying an action.

That's a single attack to the Barbarian's two though. That seems a poor exchange.

[Citan]

In your example why isn't the Barbarian also using a Longbow and using his greater movement to stay out of the Paladin's range?
"Well, he could obviously switch to Longbow once Javelins are out of range...
But since in my theorical example of "Barbarian is frightened" he's ALREADY attacking at disadvantage, might as well stick with a weapon that allows him a net +1 or +2 on rolls"...

Was I gonna say before realizing I totally forgot about drawing rules.
So, yeah, you're right, better switch to longbow and make two attacks with 14 DEX at disadvantage than only one at 16 (18?) STR at disadvantage.

Great catch!
(FWIW though, I rarely see Barbarians smart enough to keep a longbow XD)

However in my opinion it's not at all in Barbarian's interest to increase distance!
Quite on the contrary.
Since you just need to get prone to inflict disadvantage on ranged attacks, Barbarian's best thing would be to see Paladin closing in because infuriated of missing attacks even at shorter range, to get a chance at jumping on him as soon as the effect ends.

[LudicSavant]

That's a single attack to the Barbarian's two though. That seems a poor exchange.

It helps that the Barbarian would hit less than half as often.

[GlenSmash!]

It helps that the Barbarian would hit less than half as often.

Forgive me for being obtuse, but why?

[GlenSmash!]

"Well, he could obviously switch to Longbow once Javelins are out of range...
But since in my theorical example of "Barbarian is frightened" he's ALREADY attacking at disadvantage, might as well stick with a weapon that allows him a net +1 or +2 on rolls"...

Was I gonna say before realizing I totally forgot about drawing rules.
So, yeah, you're right, better switch to longbow and make two attacks with 14 DEX at disadvantage than only one at 16 (18?) STR at disadvantage.

Great catch!
(FWIW though, I rarely see Barbarians smart enough to keep a longbow XD)

Every barbarian I've made gets a Longbow as soon as they can.


However in my opinion it's not at all in Barbarian's interest to increase distance!
Quite on the contrary.
Since you just need to get prone to inflict disadvantage on ranged attacks, Barbarian's best thing would be to see Paladin closing in because infuriated of missing attacks even at shorter range, to get a chance at jumping on him as soon as the effect ends.

I disagree. As soon as you close range the Barbarian becomes vulnerable to Command spells, Abjure enemy, Wrathful Smite and a host of things that will end Rage. That Barbarian's gonna have a bad time.

[LudicSavant]

Forgive me for being obtuse, but why?

Better base AC (Barbarian only has 16 with standard point buy, because they have exactly 1 ASI and can't start with higher stats that 17 Dex / 15 Con, while the Paladin can grab Defense style and non-light armor) and access to cover from being grounded, unless we're assuming that this fight is taking place on a flat, infinite white room plane and that the Paladin can't ride their horse to a tree or something. Or even just set up some pavises or something in the middle of the nowhereverse.

[GlenSmash!]

Better base AC (Barbarian only has 16 with standard point buy, because they have exactly 1 ASI and can't start with higher stats that 17 Dex / 15 Con, while the Paladin can grab Defense style and non-light armor) and access to cover from being grounded, unless we're assuming that this fight is taking place on a flat, infinite white room plane and that the Paladin can't ride their horse to a tree or something. Or even just set up some pavises or something in the middle of the nowhereverse.

Barbarians can also grab Medium Armor with 14 d+ Dex for 17 AC Though. They are not required to be Unarmored, or restricted to Light armor.

But I did forget about Defense Fighting style so that would give the Paladin a +1.

As far as cover goes, the're not much to stop the Barb a from moving around out of longbow range until he has a clear shot again though.

[LudicSavant]

Barbadians can also grab Medium Armor with 14 d+ dex for 17 AC Though. They are not required to be Unarmored, or restricted to Light armor.

Aarakocra can't fly if they're wearing Medium Armor.

If the Barbarian can't fly, the whole jig is up. Paladin runs circles around the 25-foot walking speed Aarakocra with their mount.

[GlenSmash!]

Aarakocra can't fly if they're wearing Medium Armor.

If the Barbarian can't fly, the whole jig is up. Paladin runs circles around the 25-foot walking speed Aarakocra with their mount.

That is a good point.

That's what I get for never playing those flying bastards.

Edit: Find steed may actually be the biggest advantage the Pally has in this, admittedly bonkers, scenario.

[strangebloke]

A few things are raising big red flags for me with this analysis. The most notable of which being:

1) Your entire strategy is banked on the Paladin hitting the Barbarian successfully with a save effect, but you basically dumped Charisma to your tertiary stat because... logic? This is just silly right here. No Paladin worth their oaths would ever do this.

2) The Dexadin has no actual need to fly into range of the Barbarian here. In fact they don't even need to be an Aarakocra, because this Barbarian can't actually extend their range beyond the Paladin's ranged weapon attacks. They can just grab some high AC, sit behind some random object on the ground for cover, and both sides plink away... with the Paladin having a substantial AC advantage. The Barbarian will have a very low chance of hitting the Paladin at any given time, whereas the Dexadin has no such issues. Or, if the Paladin decides to give them Disadvantage on their attack rolls, the Barbarian would have to have an awful lot of arrows, since the Paladin can just sit behind 3/4s cover and it takes about a hundred arrows to hit them once for anemic damage.

Heck, the Dexadin could even just use Stealth whenever the Barbarian rages and then tries to start kiting. And all of this is possible even if there's nothing resembling a roof within miles. And if there is a roof, then the kiting strategy just sort of goes away.

3) How are you arriving at these stat spreads? The Aarakocra Barbarian somehow got 16/16/18 at level 5. They have exactly 1 ASI, so they can't do this with standard Point Buy.

1) Admittedly, that's a mistake, but it amounts to a 2.5% difference.

2) Ah, but you're missing the joys of three dimensional movement. Being in the air means that the barbarian can move out of the 'near' range for the paladin with just five feet of movement, and if the paladin is grounded he will not have the power to move into the Barbarian's 'near' range. Even the 'free' dash he gets with his mount still leaves him significantly slower than the barbarian, so he can't run away and he can't force closer engagement. As to cover... well, this is admittedly a white expanse being assumed here. Terrain changes the encounter in any number of ways. but unless the paladin has easy access to total cover directly over his head he will lose this fight. He's firing with disadvantage (long range) and into an enemy that has resistance.

3)It's non-intuitive, but here you go:

pre-racial: 15/15/15 -> post-racial:17/15/16 ->level 4: 18/16/16

Not how you'd build a character from level 1, but as I previously said, PVP in DND leads to very silly characters. Good grief I'm talking about dex-based aaracockra barbarian.


You're overlooking the fact that the Paladin can force a plink exchange (albeit while losing an attack) by readying an action.

Better base AC (Barbarian only has 16 with standard point buy, because they have exactly 1 ASI and can't start with higher stats that 17 Dex / 15 Con, while the Paladin can grab Defense style and non-light armor) and access to cover from being grounded, unless we're assuming that this fight is taking place on a flat, infinite white room plane and that the Paladin can't ride their horse to a tree or something. Or even just set up some pavises or something in the middle of the nowhereverse.

Barbarian can get DEX+CON+10. As I showed above, that leads to 17. Flight either forces disadvantage, or forces the paladin down to one attack. Which the barbarian resists if it hits. So he's dealing 15% of his theoretical max damage if he attacks at long range or 13.75% if he attacks via readied action.

Now, the paladin can go prone, and has 15+2+1=18 AC from medium armor and defense style. He can also force disadvantage by dropping prone, although this severely tanks his mobility. If he has 3/4s cover, he'll then have 23. That's pretty high! A barbarian shooting at that will only deal 6.25% of his max damage. But if we then look at half cover, the barbarian is dealing 16% of max.

In other words, since their max damage is the same, and he deals a higher percentage of it, he wins if the paladin only has half-cover.

So yeah, I'll freely allow that easy access to total or 3/4's cover changes things. But to me, that constitutes a certain type of terrain; one where large deciduous trees are relatively common. I'd have built both characters completely differently in a dense forest environment. There, stealth would be a lot more important, and I can see both classes playing wood elves or goblins

I think you're misunderstanding my goal here. I'm not on a tirade to prove that barbarians are better or anything. I'm trying to show that in 5e PVP, the matchups are dominated by silly, silly things, and that the PVP matchup in no way informs how useful or powerful a class is.

[GlenSmash!]

1) Admittedly, that's a mistake, but it amounts to a 2.5% difference.

2) Ah, but you're missing the joys of three dimensional movement. Being in the air means that the barbarian can move out of the 'near' range for the paladin with just five feet of movement, and if the paladin is grounded he will not have the power to move into the Barbarian's 'near' range. Even the 'free' dash he gets with his mount still leaves him significantly slower than the barbarian, so he can't run away and he can't force closer engagement. As to cover... well, this is admittedly a white expanse being assumed here. Terrain changes the encounter in any number of ways. but unless the paladin has easy access to total cover directly over his head he will lose this fight. He's firing with disadvantage (long range) and into an enemy that has resistance.

3)It's non-intuitive, but here you go:

pre-racial: 15/15/15 -> post-racial:17/15/16 ->level 4: 18/16/16

Not how you'd build a character from level 1, but as I previously said, PVP in DND leads to very silly characters. Good grief I'm talking about dex-based aaracockra barbarian.

Dang, I was also only thinking in 2 dimensions. You guys are better than me at this.

Could the grounded Paladin drop Prone and shoot directly in the air then?

Also if only 5ft of more movement is needed, would the Barbarian be better of being a Zealot, sacrificing Dash as a Bonus action for 1d6+2 Radiant (Or Necrotic I guess) damage on the first hit of each turn while Raging?

[Waterdeep Merch]

If we're talking dex-based aarakockras with longbows, shouldn't the paladin come out ahead again?

I mean, I see dexadins a lot more than I see dexarians. There's no real need for a paladin to go strength aside from plate and weapon feats. If we're discounting weapon feats and assuming a large battlefield that we're designing combatants explicitly for, I'd say a dexadin with a longbow makes a lot more sense.

Paladins only ever avoid ranged weaponry in parties, because they have allies that can cover that. In one-on-one scenarios in giant open fields with bird men, why wouldn't they carry bows? And if they specialize in these kinds of exchanges, why would they focus on strength when it affects so little?

[strangebloke]

If we're talking dex-based aarakockras with longbows, shouldn't the paladin come out ahead again?

I mean, I see dexadins a lot more than I see dexarians. There's no real need for a paladin to go strength aside from plate and weapon feats. If we're discounting weapon feats and assuming a large battlefield that we're designing combatants explicitly for, I'd say a dexadin with a longbow makes a lot more sense.

Paladins only ever avoid ranged weaponry in parties, because they have allies that can cover that. In one-on-one scenarios in giant open fields with bird men, why wouldn't they carry bows? And if they specialize in these kinds of exchanges, why would they focus on strength when it affects so little?

Paladins are great with dex! Much better than Barbarians.

But not at range. They get absolutely nothing as far as class features (beyond armor, defense fighting style) that helps them in fights at distances greater than 60 feet.

Barbarians can get rage bonuses at any distance, so long as they can keep making attacks, and they still get fast movement and unarmored defense.

So in the example, they're both using longbows. I realize that the barbarian isn't using half of his class features. No rage damage, no reckless attack... but that's the point! I'm trying to show that PVP matchups end up being dominated by stupid, niggling details and don't represent anything about a character's strength.

The paladin in my example is a much more well-rounded, useful character, who also loses this utterly absurd PVP matchup against a stupid screaming bird person.

[GlenSmash!]

If we're talking dex-based aarakockras with longbows, shouldn't the paladin come out ahead again? Why though.


I mean, I see dexadins a lot more than I see dexarians.
Sure because Paladin abilities are mostly just limited by range, and barbarians are more limed to attacks made with strength, but with spellcasting giving the Paladin a huge advatage, a range focused Barbarian strategy is by far the better tactic. And looking at what they get at range it's about even, with the Barbarian getting a slight edge in movement speed.


There's no real need for a paladin to go strength aside from plate and weapon feats. If we're discounting weapon feats and assuming a large battlefield that we're designing combatants explicitly for, I'd say a dexadin with a longbow makes a lot more sense.

Paladins only ever avoid ranged weaponry in parties, because they have allies that can cover that. In one-on-one scenarios in giant open fields with bird men, why wouldn't they carry bows? And if they specialize in these kinds of exchanges, why would they focus on strength when it affects so little?

In this case it makes sense for both to carry bows.

When it comes down to actually wanting to kill one person before they kill you two things will give you the biggest advantage: Superior range and getting the drop on them (besides having allies of course, that's still the best strategy).

[Waterdeep Merch]

Paladins are great with dex! Much better than Barbarians.

But not at range. They get absolutely nothing as far as class features (beyond armor, defense fighting style) that helps them in fights at distances greater than 60 feet.

Barbarians can get rage bonuses at any distance, so long as they can keep making attacks, and they still get fast movement and unarmored defense.

So in the example, they're both using longbows. I realize that the barbarian isn't using half of his class features. No rage damage, no reckless attack... but that's the point! I'm trying to show that PVP matchups end up being dominated by stupid, niggling details and don't represent anything about a character's strength.

The paladin in my example is a much more well-rounded, useful character, who also loses this utterly absurd PVP matchup against a stupid screaming bird person.
Oh, well I can completely agree with that.

I remember an incident about two years ago where a winged tiefling thief fought a dragonborn with a homebrew class (my own creation, actually, though I was a player for this one). It took, no joke, a full hour to complete. The thief used somewhere in the neighborhood of 5k worth of magic scrolls and potions to stay invisible and cheese the fight, frustrating his opponent.

And everyone else at the table.

[LudicSavant]

1) Admittedly, that's a mistake Okay, that makes sense.


pre-racial: 15/15/15 -> post-racial:17/15/16 ->level 4: 18/16/16

That also makes sense. But your Barbarian still has a major problem with its game plan here.


2) Ah, but you're missing the joys of three dimensional movement.

On the contrary, I think you're the one overlooking something important on this subject.


Being in the air means that the barbarian can move out of the 'near' range for the paladin with just five feet of movement, and if the paladin is grounded he will not have the power to move into the Barbarian's 'near' range.

Yeah, and here's what that accomplishes:

You gave the Paladin Disadvantage on their attacks. That's it. That is all you have accomplished. They can totally still fire at you as long as you're within 600 feet.

With a +7 to hit and you having 17 AC (now that I know how you got it), the Paladin has a 30.25% chance to hit with each of her two attacks. She does't even have to Ready, because the Barbarian isn't actually outside of her maximum range (you can't move from 120 feet to more than 600 feet with the Eagle Barbarian's mobility).

You know what the Barbarian's chance to hit at near range is? If the Paladin has plate (which there's no particular reason they need to avoid even on a dex build, since they like to use their mount to get around anyways) and Defense and is sitting prone under anything resembling cover (which they could have carried to the battlefield themselves if for some reason they're in the flat nowhereverse), it's... wait for it... 4%. 4% chance to hit. You use about 25 arrows for every one anemic plink you land on the Paladin.

4% to hit vs 30% to hit. How is this a good deal for the Barbarian?

Also, this is before the Paladin uses any spells. For example, they could boost their hit chance with Bless, or lower the Barbarian's hit chance with Shield of Faith. But it's totally unnecessary for them to even spend spell slots to win this fight, with the Barbarian using the strategy you have recommended.

Edit:

This whole section wasn't here when I was posting my reply. However the bit above should still refute it.


Barbarian can get DEX+CON+10. As I showed above, that leads to 17. Flight either forces disadvantage, or forces the paladin down to one attack. Which the barbarian resists if it hits. So he's dealing 15% of his theoretical max damage if he attacks at long range or 13.75% if he attacks via readied action.

Now, the paladin can go prone, and has 15+2+1=18 AC from medium armor and defense style. He can also force disadvantage by dropping prone, although this severely tanks his mobility. If he has 3/4s cover, he'll then have 23. That's pretty high! A barbarian shooting at that will only deal 6.25% of his max damage. But if we then look at half cover, the barbarian is dealing 16% of max.

In other words, since their max damage is the same, and he deals a higher percentage of it, he wins if the paladin only has half-cover.

So yeah, I'll freely allow that easy access to total or 3/4's cover changes things. But to me, that constitutes a certain type of terrain; one where large deciduous trees are relatively common. I'd have built both characters completely differently in a dense forest environment. There, stealth would be a lot more important, and I can see both classes playing wood elves or goblins

I think you're misunderstanding my goal here. I'm not on a tirade to prove that barbarians are better or anything. I'm trying to show that in 5e PVP, the matchups are dominated by silly, silly things, and that the PVP matchup in no way informs how useful or powerful a class is.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Why though.
Find Steed makes a better weapons platform for skirting short/long distance, and if the barbarian can't do enough damage, it doesn't really matter that he has 3 minutes of rage for half-health. The paladin has 25 HP's worth of Lay on Hands and cure wounds. Add in the ability to skirt the distance to stop the barbarian from ever attacking at short distance while the paladin always gets it, and the paladin's very likely to win a plink battle.


Sure because Paladin abilities are mostly just limited by range, and barbarians are more limed to attacks made with strength, but with spellcasting giving the Paladin a huge advatage, a range focused Barbarian strategy is by far the better tactic. And looking at what they get at range it's about even, with the Barbarian getting a slight edge in movement speed.
Not if you factor in Find Steed.


In this case it makes sense for both to carry bows.
Absolutely! Basically anything that decides it's going to PvP in conditions like this would be stupid not to carry both a bow and a melee weapon.


When it comes down to actually wanting to kill one person before they kill you two things will give you the biggest advantage: Superior range and getting the drop on them (besides having allies of course, that's still the best strategy).
You bet! More reason for a paladin to prefer dex in this scenario, they really don't want to hand the first turn to the barbarian so easily.

[Galactkaktus]

The one with better mobility since that is the one that has more control over the battle. If you want it to be a slugfest you can make it one if you don't you can make sure it isn't(assuming the battlefield is large enough to use the extra mobility) So my bet would be on a wood elf dex eagle barbarian with a longbow.

[strangebloke]

You gave the Paladin Disadvantage on their attacks. That's it. That is all you have accomplished. They can totally still fire at you as long as you're within 600 feet.
Or you can just stay out of 600 foot range and be completely untargetable, except by readied ranged attacks.


With a +7 to hit and you having 17 AC (now that I know how you got it), the Paladin has a 30.25% chance to hit with each of her two attacks. She does't even have to Ready, because the Barbarian isn't actually outside of her maximum range (you can't move from 120 feet to more than 600 feet with the Eagle Barbarian's mobility).

You know what the Barbarian's chance to hit at near range is? If the Paladin has plate (which there's no particular reason they need to avoid even on a dex build, since they like to use their mount to get around anyways) and Defense and is sitting prone under anything resembling cover (which they could have carried to the battlefield themselves if for some reason they're in the flat nowhereverse), it's... wait for it... 4%. 4% chance to hit. You use about 25 arrows for every one anemic plink you land on the Paladin.

4% to hit vs 30% to hit. How is this a good deal for the Barbarian?
I agree with your numbers. I came to very similar ones myself, although I didn't think to put our paladin in plate.

Your post makes me very happy. You see, the whole scenario was intended to be a stupidly, ludicrously 'optimal' as possible. I was pretty proud of how silly that made things. Two screaming bird people shooting arrows at each other from titanic distances? But then you made it better. Now its a holy knight wandering through the desert with a 6x3 foot portable wall on his back, ducking for cover as the screaming bird man wheels overhead plinking arrows at him furiously. The paladin can barely move in his armor, but fortunately is impervious to all attacks, lying prone underneath his portable wall, longbow (somehow) readied to fire at the sky.

That's so much better. I don't care that my example doesn't work. I'm just happy to see that what beats the stupid bird man is an even stupider paladin with a giant board on his back at all times.

What makes me laugh even more is how infuriated you seem to be at the fight occurring in a white room. Where the frick did you think this absurd fight was taking place? Its in a world where 5e is being considered as a PVP system, which I'll be honest, is a pretty silly place already.

Although, if we go with features, I'm partial to a swamp. Then this turns into a fight between lizard people and goblins, where neither side is entirely sure that the other still exists. :smallbiggrin:


Also, this is before the Paladin uses any spells. For example, they could boost their hit chance with Bless, or lower the Barbarian's hit chance with Shield of Faith. But it's totally unnecessary for them to even spend spell slots to win this fight, with the Barbarian using the strategy you have recommended.

Edit:

This whole section wasn't here when I was posting my reply. However the bit above should still refute it.
The spells end up making significantly less of a difference than the cover. Taken by themselves, they aren't enough since the paladin will lose the concentration spells very quickly. A better use here is for healing, which, once again... doesn't do a whole lot until you factor in the cover.


Find Steed makes a better weapons platform for skirting short/long distance, and if the barbarian can't do enough damage, it doesn't really matter that he has 3 minutes of rage for half-health. The paladin has 25 HP's worth of Lay on Hands and cure wounds. Add in the ability to skirt the distance to stop the barbarian from ever attacking at short distance while the paladin always gets it, and the paladin's very likely to win a plink battle.

Well, the barbarian here is actually faster. The whole point of the silly build was to have a bonus action dash and 60 foot movement speed, which is even faster than the paladin's dashing mount. So its actually the reverse of what you're saying.

True, the duration of rage does make this rather bad, if things get down to the level where you're only hitting once in a dozen shots. Short of that, though, 360 attacks over the course of three minutes is more than enough to force a win if your hit chances are north of 10%.

[LudicSavant]

This whole section wasn't here when I was posting my reply. But there are a couple quick points I want to address:


Which the barbarian resists if it hits.

I think you're underestimating how long this plinking strategy is going to take. Heck, if the Paladin wanted, they could hunker down with a defensive spell and draw their shield (or even run under full cover depending on the terrain) and wait out your rage.

For example, Plate+Defense+3/4 cover+prone+shield+Shield of Faith Paladin has a 0.25% chance of being hit by the Barbarian. They expect to hit the Paladin once every 200 rounds.

With only half cover instead, they expect to hit the Paladin once every 44 rounds for less damage than the Paladin heals with a Cure Wounds.

The end result is that your Resistance is... well, ignorable. The Paladin can simply wait until you do not have it.


Now, the paladin can go prone, and has 15+2+1=18 AC from medium armor and defense style.

Another point: I would actually expect the Paladin to be wearing plate, not medium armor, because they have a horse to carry them around.


He can also force disadvantage by dropping prone, although this severely tanks his mobility. Tanking his mobility doesn't actually matter because the Barbarian can never hit the Paladin without giving the Paladin an opportunity to hit them back (with superior accuracy).

The Barbarian could choose to flee the field and there's nothing the Paladin could do to run them down, but that just raises the Barbarian's best case scenario to "draw." And only if the PvP arena rules don't count fleeing as a loss.


So yeah, I'll freely allow that easy access to total or 3/4's cover changes things. But to me, that constitutes a certain type of terrain; one where large deciduous trees are relatively common. I'd have built both characters completely differently in a dense forest environment.

I'd argue that 3/4s cover is pretty easy to come by when you have a pack animal (allowing you to move quickly to desirable terrain or to simply carry objects to use as cover with you). But it's kind of a moot point as the above factors would cause the Paladin to win with only half cover, too.


I think you're misunderstanding my goal here. I'm not on a tirade to prove that barbarians are better or anything. I'm trying to show that in 5e PVP, the matchups are dominated by silly, silly things, and that the PVP matchup in no way informs how useful or powerful a class is.

Nah, I get that you're just trying to illustrate the silliness inherent in PvP scenarios. You'll note that I actually agreed with you on that point earlier in the thread. I'm just telling you... the Aarakocra silliness works in the Paladin's favor, not the other way around.

[Ganymede]

What are the two players even competing to do? Who can kill the most goblins in 10 rounds? Who can make the tastiest blintz? Who can bed the most people in a week? Who can hold their breath the longest?

We need more info, bro.

[LudicSavant]

Or you can just stay out of 600 foot range and be completely untargetable, except by readied ranged attacks.

Yes. Which is the scenario I originally addressed, before you suggested the Barbarian going into "near" range and flying back 5 feet instead.


Now its a holy knight wandering through the desert with a 6x3 foot portable wall on his back, ducking for cover as the screaming bird man wheels overhead plinking arrows at him furiously. The paladin can barely move in his armor, but fortunately is impervious to all attacks, lying prone underneath his portable wall, longbow (somehow) readied to fire at the sky.


That's so much better. I don't care that my example doesn't work. I'm just happy to see that what beats the stupid bird man is an even stupider paladin with a giant board on his back at all times.

Do you realize that the thing you're calling "stupid" is something that real life soldiers did on a regular basis?

https://www.super-hobby.com/zdjecia/2/4/8/1674_rd.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/Balestriere1.jpg/225px-Balestriere1.jpg

Also, what's this about the Paladin being able to "barely move" in their armor? The penalties are not that severe.


What makes me laugh even more is how infuriated you seem to be at the fight occurring in a white room. Where the frick did you think this absurd fight was taking place?

I'm sorry, what? I'm not angry at all, and would appreciate if you didn't project onto me. It seems both aggressive and uncalled for. I thought we were having a nice, civil discussion up until this point... :smallfrown:

I have merely pointed out two possibilities: Outside of a white room it's generally pretty easy to get to cover if you have a mount. Inside a white room you can just do what real life ranged fighters did in open fields and carry some cover onto the battlefield with you. Both scenarios result in the Paladin's victory, or at best the Barbarian fleeing with the Paladin being unable to follow.

[sithlordnergal]

Ok, I am starting to get the picture. Just out of Interest: Is there a Level after which the Paladin gets stronger than the Barbarian or is it basically just: Barbarian > Paladin (strictly talking PVP!)?

Edit: And lets just stop with the Flying Race Stuff. It's totally legit and we can all agree how that helps you with Anti-melee, but i think we can also agree that if you pick those, 99% of the time you are trying to cheese the game.

I would say yes. This generally happens around level 9, after the Paladin maxes out his Charisma and gains 3rd level spells and spell slots. At this point a Vengeance and Ancients Paladin will have ways of dealing with a Barbarian's Movement, baring crazy stuff like flying races. Vengeance gains Haste while Ancients gains Plant Growth and Moon Beam

And at level 13, Paladins don't really need to be concerned about flying races due to Find Greater Steed giving them a pegasus. As long as the Paladin outfits their steed in heavy armor, it will be more difficult to take down then usual, and the pegasus' 90ft fly speed and capability to dash outpaces the Barbarian's speed. Meaning the Paladin can get in range for Command: Halt, dropping the Barbarian out of their Rage, or Command: Grovel, forcing the Barbarian to go prone and causing them to fall from the sky.

[ChildofLuthic]

I love how quickly this became "barbarian would fly around and shoot arrows." Like, when I mentally picture a barbarian and paladin fighting, I imagine two badasses charging towards each other with big weapons - one empowered by his god, the other fueled by his rage. Instead, you gave me some bird guy with a bow fleeing from a bossy guy in a suit of armor.

[Gisa]

I love how quickly this became "barbarian would fly around and shoot arrows." Like, when I mentally picture a barbarian and paladin fighting, I imagine two badasses charging towards each other with big weapons - one empowered by his god, the other fueled by his rage. Instead, you gave me some bird guy with a bow fleeing from a bossy guy in a suit of armor.


https://media0.giphy.com/media/DeJ2ifS2V2zlu/giphy.gif

[LudicSavant]

I love how quickly this became "barbarian would fly around and shoot arrows." Like, when I mentally picture a barbarian and paladin fighting, I imagine two badasses charging towards each other with big weapons - one empowered by his god, the other fueled by his rage. Instead, you gave me some bird guy with a bow fleeing from a bossy guy in a suit of armor.

Yeah. It's especially silly because the "super cheesy" aarakocra wouldn't really be able to beat a standard, non-flying Dexadin who happens to be carrying a backup weapon for annoying birds. (It'd be a different story if the Barb took Sharpshooter, which is what really opens up the Aarakocra cheese, but they didn't).

Personally I'd much rather be talking about the two badasses.

I think the most productive thing here is something the OP mentioned: That they want to learn about the possibilities. So I'll try to lay out some of the factors involved here.

If we take gimmicks like flying races out of the equation, then I'd say that the Paladin's chance of winning basically rises in proportion to the level (higher level = better for Paladin; a level 1 Paladin doesn't have a lot of PvP tricks) and the skill of the players involved (Barbarians tend to perform better the closer their enemies are to thinking in terms no more complicated than "walk up to nearest foe and cast Melee Attack until one side falls over").

After that it's going to depend on things like situation (terrain/starting distance/etc etc) and matchup (for example, a lot of Paladins like PAM/Sentinel, and that'll be hard for a Greatsword user to deal with).

Some things to consider/remember:
Barbarian rage is more fragile than it may appear on paper. If you fail to target an enemy for even one turn, you lose your rage. And you have to use your bonus action on the turn you activate rage, which means no Frenzy attack or Eagle Dash or anything on that turn. And you won't resist things that happen before your initiative comes up. And your durability isn't simply doubled relative to your opponent (because you probably have lower AC, and aren't resisting all of their damage, etc).
Barbarians benefit more from having juiced up stats (mostly because of the opportunity for high naked AC, as well as having better saves), and suffer more from having lower-than-standard stats (Because they need Strength, Dex, Wis, and Con, while the Paladin can potentially drop Dex or Str (not both), can drop Cha if they don't want to use save-based spells, and can drop Con a bit if they're not going for a slugfest-based strategy).
Reckless Attack gives your enemy Advantage, too, which is a substantial boost to their DPR that helps offset your rage. (For some reason, people keep being surprised when they look at DPR charts and realize that against things like mook swarms they're occasionally actually more than doubling the enemy's DPR against their Barbarian).
At level 5, the Paladin's horse is a huge factor. Sure, the Barbarian can hypothetically also buy a mount (and honestly have no good way to catch up to the Paladin if they don't), but it can't attack independently or share buffs, and also is generally easier to kill than the Paladin's.
Any opportunity to disengage by any means (there are a lot), even briefly, benefits the Paladin, because they can take rounds to heal up and buff while the Barbarian's rage runs out.
Sanctuary is a pretty reliable way to end a Barbarian rage, can be used after your Action (with your bonus action), and can use the time that you're not attacking to add buffs (including the Devotion Paladin's Cha-to-attack buff) and heal off damage and such. If the Barbarian wants to outslug a Devotion Paladin getting through this is challenging.
Great Weapon Master is a trap option for a Barbarian trying to fight a Paladin, unless they are stuck with low budget armors. Even with Advantage from Reckless Attack, unless the Paladin's AC is unusually low for a Paladin, you're basically spending a feat for the opportunity to lower your DPR.

[GlenSmash!]

I love how quickly this became "barbarian would fly around and shoot arrows." Like, when I mentally picture a barbarian and paladin fighting, I imagine two badasses charging towards each other with big weapons - one empowered by his god, the other fueled by his rage. Instead, you gave me some bird guy with a bow fleeing from a bossy guy in a suit of armor.

The funny thing to me is how it highlights actual real world combat advantages. Which I never expected this silly D&D related question to do!

Even when you are a melee power house, when you really want to hit someone without getting hit you get a better range than them, sneak up on them, or get some friends to help you.

As silly as the conversation was it was kind of fun.

Now I'll go back to playing my non flying Barbarian Zealot with GWM who occasionally attacks at range when the circumstances call for it.