does battlemagic perception make divine defiance superflous?

[Phaederkiel]

My character is a lvl 5 cloistered cleric. I had a lvl up. I am torn between taking Church inquisitor & divine defiance and taking knowledge religion and divine oracle. Take note that divine oracle directly pumps Battlemagic perception.

What would the playground do? That +4 of the inquisition domain sure looks tasty, but will still look good at lvl 7. If I do not need Divine defiance, I would probably go with the oracle.


I am not entirely sure how B.P. works. Obviously, there is an error in the text, as the intended functionality is not given if you have to use a free action to counterspell, instead of an intermediate.
What I am unsure of is the phrase


"This determination happens quickly enough that you can attempt to counter the spell as a free action."

does this mean i counter without having to have prepared a dispel in the first place?
The next line says


"Counterspell attempts are otherwise handled normally, and you can counter the spell even if you do not have line of sight to the spellcaster."

otherwise is kind of a big word here.

[thethird]

Battlemagic perception does only change the actions needed you still need the spell slots.
Divine defiance can counter things that are not spells and not otherwise counterable.

[Crake]

Battlemagic perception does only change the actions needed you still need the spell slots.

Not only that, it's a 3rd level spell in and of itself, that only lasts for 10 minutes/level, and only allows you to counter a single spell before ending. Meanwhile, divine defiance uses a separate resource than spells, one that you're unlikely to really get TOO much use out of for it's normal purpose, so a secondary use is very good. Divine defiance also uses spellslots though, so not sure why you brought that up.


Divine defiance can counter things that are not spells and not otherwise counterable.

Citation needed? Things that aren't counterable, aren't counterable, and divine defiance has no wording to change that.

[Zaq]

If you happen to have BmP up, then sure, it'll do a good job for you.

But unlike BmP, Divine Defiance is always on, meaning that you can't be caught without it, you can use it multiple times per encounter even without spending a standard action on it, and you're only spending the spell slots on counterspelling, not on turning on BmP and then counterspelling.

BmP is an acceptable substitute if you don't want to go divine or if you can't spare the feat space or something. It's much easier for the average arcane caster to learn a spell than it is for them to pick up Turn Undead and drop a feat on Divine Defiance. But all else being equal, I find Divine Defiance to be much stronger and more flexible overall.

[thethird]

Citation needed? Things that aren't counterable, aren't counterable, and divine defiance has no wording to change that.


You can spend one of your turn or rebuke undead attempts as an immediate action to counter a spell or spelllike effect.

Emphasis added.

[Crake]

Emphasis added.

Hmm, yet that doesn't actually specify it can counter things that previously were not-counterable, so SLAs, Su abilities and psionics are out, as they are specifically uncounterable. I'm struggling to think of any other spell like effects that are counterable that you could counter.

[thethird]

Hmm, yet that doesn't actually specify it can counter things that previously were not-counterable, so SLAs, Su abilities and psionics are out, as they are specifically uncounterable. I'm struggling to think of any other spell like effects that are counterable that you could counter.

I think you are being willfully pedantic with that reading, but to each their own. It literally says counter spell-like.

[Crake]

I think you are being willfully pedantic with that reading, but to each their own. It literally says counter spell-like.

Sounds more like it was written by someone who didn't understand that SLAs can't be countered.

[thethird]

Sounds more like it was written by someone who didn't understand that SLAs can't be countered.

Specific trumps general. If divine defiance can specifically counter spell likes then it can counter spell likes.

[Efrate]

At the least it can counter all psionics and spell likes. Supernatural is likely not counterable still, thats a pretty fair on the cuff ruling I would think. Unless you really want to stretch anything magical to be spell "like". And Su are explicitly magical. That's a harder sell.