Are Warlocks better Arcane Tricksters than Arcane Tricksters?

[Citadel97501]

Hello all,

I have been playing a Rogue: AT for the last few levels and it occurred to me that Rogue AT's are bad at their own schtick, in comparison to a Warlock. The Schtick I am talking about is some utility (mage hand tricks) followed by Illusion magic & enchantment. Basically 2 levels of Warlock just seems to bring a lot more to the table for the sneaky illusion and trickery style of play than 3 levels of the same rogue even discounting the DPR of another sneak attack damage die.

Now I do assume that certain levels of rogue are likely to really shine, such as Expertise #2, Uncanny Dodge, and Evasion however, once again doesn't the warlock still get nearly equivalent affects through more powerful illusion spells, and more Invocations?

[Unoriginal]

Hello all,

I have been playing a Rogue: AT for the last few levels and it occurred to me that Rogue AT's are bad at their own schtick, in comparison to a Warlock. The Schtick I am talking about is some utility (mage hand tricks) followed by Illusion magic & enchantment. Basically 2 levels of Warlock just seems to bring a lot more to the table for the sneaky illusion and trickery style of play than 3 levels of the same rogue even discounting the DPR of another sneak attack damage die.

Now I do assume that certain levels of rogue are likely to really shine, such as Expertise #2, Uncanny Dodge, and Evasion however, once again doesn't the warlock still get nearly equivalent affects through more powerful illusion spells, and more Invocations?

An Arcane Trickster's schtick isn't "some utility (mage hand tricks) followed by Illusion magic & enchantment." An Arcane Trickster's schtick is to be a Rogue while "having some utility (mage hand tricks) followed by Illusion magic & enchantment."

Warlocks are still casters first, of course they're better at magic than someone who only get magic through a subclass.

Being a Rogue brings more trickery on the table than the Warlock's admittedly not small arsenal in this matter.

[Dr. Cliché]

This seems akin to asking 'Isn't a Wizard a better Wizard than an Eldritch Knight?' :smalltongue:

The answer is obviously 'yes', because the Eldritch Knight is a fighter first and a wizard second. Whilst the wizard is obviously a wizard first.

Likewise, whilst the Arcane Trickster has some magical tricks, he's still primarily a rogue. His main abilities aren't his spells but rather his skills, Expertise, Cunning Action, Sneak Attack etc. The spells just give him some extra utility.

Hence, a Warlock (or Illusionist/Enchanter Wizard) is inevitably going to be better at enchantment or illusion magic than the rogue because it's their central focus.

Something I will add though is that the Arcane Trickster is more a 'Mage Hand class'. And it has several tricks with said Mage Hand that Warlocks can't duplicate - controlling it as a bonus action, making it invisible, using it to pick pockets, use it to pick locks, use it to gain Advantage against a creature. Of course, you'll note that virtually all of these are based around a Rogue theme (stealing, picking locks, enabling Sneak Attack). Because that's what the Arcane Trickster is at heart - a Rogue who's able to augment their abilities with a little magic.




Now I do assume that certain levels of rogue are likely to really shine, such as Expertise #2, Uncanny Dodge, and Evasion however, once again doesn't the warlock still get nearly equivalent affects through more powerful illusion spells, and more Invocations?

Not really, actually. Don't get me wrong - Warlocks have a lot of good spells and Invocations, but I don't think they do a good job of replicating the Rogue abilities. For example, a Warlock can gain Proficiency in a couple of abilities via Beguiling Influence, but they have no choice in which skills they gain and (unlike Expertise) they have no option to improve on them.

Another key aspect is that of resources. A Warlock can use Tomb of Levistus or Shield or Absorb Elements to prevent or reduce damage. However, the first of those is once per short rest and the other two use up valuable spell slots. In contrast, a Rogue is free to use Uncanny Dodge every turn without expending any resources.

And this is a key point, I think. Rogues can be rogue-y all the time. Warlocks generally have to expend resources in order to be rogue-y briefly.

[solidork]

I know that it's easy to be envious of Mask of Many Faces, but keep in mind that that ability can be replicated by an uncommon magical item. Also, expertise is huge and is what really sets the Rogue (and Bard) apart from other classes. It's just really nice to be able to rely on your skills more. Reliable Talent at 11 is amazing.

[Joe the Rat]

Come back when you have 6-7 levels of arcane trickster, then compare to the 2-level warlock.

[Keravath]

Come back when you have 6-7 levels of arcane trickster, then compare to the 2-level warlock.

Or play a multiclass arcane trickster rogue/warlock :) ... if you really like the Mask of Many Faces invocation for at will disguise self then a 2 level dip into warlock is very feasible and brings a lot more with it. (I have a trickster rogue/fey bladelock that I enjoy playing quite a bit).

However, keep in mind that at level 7 a rogue will have 2 second and 4 first level spell slots. It has the spell casting resources for a few very convenient tricks throughout the day. On the other hand, a warlock will have 2 4th level spell slots. This allows access to better spell casting but which needs to be rationed depending on the ratio of short to long rests in the particular campaign.

Finally, as mentioned several times, an arcane trickster is a ROGUE. Rogue sneak attack, cunning action, uncanny dodge, evasion, reliable talent, 4 skills at first level, 4 skills with expertise by 6th level, the ONLY class to have the option of expertise in thieves tools. The magical ability of the arcane trickster is a perk to support the rogue skills and talents.

However, the specific trickster skills enhance their rogue abilities and help them make the most of their magic - mage hand legerdemain (3), magical ambush (9) and versatile trickster (13). The additional mage hand capabilities of the arcane trickster are unique and very effective.

A warlock gets invocations, 2 (eventually 3-4) short rest spell slots that scale with level, and access to higher level spells. A warlock with the right invocations and feats can make a great spy ... but they don't generally have the broad and versatile capabilities of the rogue. So with the possible exception of easy access to disguise self ... a warlock does not make a better arcane trickster than and arcane trickster rogue. They do make a better caster (of course) since that is what they are.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Personally I think the Arcane Trickster's 9th level ability, Magical Ambush, is just about broken. Warlocks get nothing that compares to it.

And yet, the Warlock is still my favorite class for some reason.

[Joe the Rat]

Personally I think the Arcane Trickster's 9th level ability, Magical Ambush, is just about broken. Warlocks get nothing that compares to it.

And yet, the Warlock is still my favorite class for some reason.
Because they're awesome?

[Foxhound438]

An Arcane Trickster's schtick isn't "some utility (mage hand tricks) followed by Illusion magic & enchantment." An Arcane Trickster's schtick is to be a Rogue while "having some utility (mage hand tricks) followed by Illusion magic & enchantment."

this exactly. Arcane tricksters are 1/3 casters, you should be looking at them as being stealthy, burst-damage-y skill monkeys with spells as like a tertiary bonus.

That said, everyone knows the best rogues that get a little bit of casting are shadow monks

[JakOfAllTirades]

Personally I think the Arcane Trickster's 9th level ability, Magical Ambush, is just about broken. Warlocks get nothing that compares to it.

And yet, the Warlock is still my favorite class for some reason.


Because they're awesome?

Absolutely. So are Rogues. I sometimes consider playing an Arcane Trickster, then I look at their spell progression and just cringe. You've gotta be in it for all the awesome Rogue-ness other than spellcasting if you're serious about playing one. If you're in it for the spellcasting and other magical abilities, go Warlock.

And if you wanna play a Trickster Warlock, there's always the Fey Pact.

[Unoriginal]

Absolutely. So are Rogues.

If a PC class in D&D is not awesome, something went very wrong somewhere.

[Foxhound438]

Absolutely. So are Rogues. I sometimes consider playing an Arcane Trickster, then I look at their spell progression and just cringe. You've gotta be in it for all the awesome Rogue-ness other than spellcasting if you're serious about playing one. If you're in it for the spellcasting and other magical abilities, go Warlock.

I've known people who have flatly claimed that AT's and eldritch knights are unequivocally bad, with their anecdote being "I cast burning hands when my character was level 3 and it didn't kill everything".

Anyways, I just wanted to share that gem, but also arcane tricksters in particular do get to have better damage with SCAG cantrips and Shadow Blade, so there's a definite upside there beyond just having utility spells anyways.

[Digimike]

AT's are frighteningly good when played well. If you try to play them like a primary caster then you're doing it all wrong.

AT's are single target damage dealers, skill/trap monkeys, and scouts. Sometimes they're capable of locking down and acting as a controller of a single enemy.

They can also provide nifty diversions for when encounters are FUBAR to allow the party to escape.

When you optimize them around wrecking the action economy and dice rolls (lucky feat, portent dip, halfling racial) they can shine even more.

Do what you're good at and leave other stuff to classes that do other stuff better.

[tieren]

I've been struggling with this lately.

Not as worded by OP, but I want a trickster, Loki type, theme.

I've considered trickery domain cleric, arcane trickster, and fey lock. I am settling in on the warlock, at will disguise self, silent image, access to the same spells people touted the trickery domain for. Can blink, mirror image, misty step, etc... Considering chain pact for sprite familiar (more uses than mage hand ledgerdeman).

[Man_Over_Game]

I've been struggling with this lately.

Not as worded by OP, but I want a trickster, Loki type, theme.

I've considered trickery domain cleric, arcane trickster, and fey lock. I am settling in on the warlock, at will disguise self, silent image, access to the same spells people touted the trickery domain for. Can blink, mirror image, misty step, etc... Considering chain pact for sprite familiar (more uses than mage hand ledgerdeman).

Please don't do thread necromancy. We prefer the practice of creating a new discussion, potentially linking an old thread to the new one as a point to base the new discussion off of. This is to prevent old information in the thread with conflicting with new rules, which ends up making one sided arguments that people from a year back aren't going to respond to.

[Aett_Thorn]

I've been struggling with this lately.

Not as worded by OP, but I want a trickster, Loki type, theme.

I've considered trickery domain cleric, arcane trickster, and fey lock. I am settling in on the warlock, at will disguise self, silent image, access to the same spells people touted the trickery domain for. Can blink, mirror image, misty step, etc... Considering chain pact for sprite familiar (more uses than mage hand ledgerdeman).

Eh, this thread is only a few months old. Not that bad considering that not many new sources have come out since the OP. Still, probably would have been better to start a new thread, but whatever.

Warlocks can do a lot of good trickery things, especially when you combine Invocations, good skill choices from the class, and the right background.

However, spending spells on social trickery can leave you depleted of spell slots once combat comes up, unless you can get a short rest in between the two. Just something that you’ll want to keep an eye on. Also, spending your two slots on Blink and Mirror Image will blow your slots on one combat. You’ll want to choose which one to use in each combat.

[tieren]

However, spending spells on social trickery can leave you depleted of spell slots once combat comes up, unless you can get a short rest in between the two. Just something that you’ll want to keep an eye on. Also, spending your two slots on Blink and Mirror Image will blow your slots on one combat. You’ll want to choose which one to use in each combat.

Yes, I didn't mean to use them at the same time, just giving examples of things they can do that fit the theme.

Infinite silent images for example can do tons of illusionary goodness without depleting combat resources.

[Roland St. Jude]

Please don't do thread necromancy. We prefer the practice of creating a new discussion, potentially linking an old thread to the new one as a point to base the new discussion off of. This is to prevent old information in the thread with conflicting with new rules, which ends up making one sided arguments that people from a year back aren't going to respond to.Sheriff: Indeed.