PEACH: Roguish Archetype — Thug

[Arkhios]

So, this is just the first second second-and-a-half version, and I'm prepared and willing to fix anything you might find overpowered ... or too weak. Of course, as always, if you have an idea to replace something with it, let me know.

Without further a-do, here's (my iteration of)...

Roguish Archetype: Thug (v.2.5) (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Sk7S_YjfRm)



First version, format was subject to change ...as was pretty much everything. Still, if you're interested to see what it was before, here you go...

Thug

3rd level:
Dirty Trick. As a bonus action, when you would deal sneak attack damage with a melee weapon attack, you can subtract a number of dice from Sneak Attack in order to inflict your target a debilitating condition, in addition to the final damage roll. The number of d6’s you subtract depends on the condition inflicted.

Demoralize. By subtracting 1d6 from your sneak attack, you cause your target to be frightened of you until the end of its next turn.
Distract. By subtracting 2d6 from your sneak attack, the next attack roll against the target by an attacker other than you has advantage if the attack is made before the start of your next turn.
Ear Slap. By subtracting 1d6 from your sneak attack, you can cause your target to be deafened and stunned until the end of its next turn.
Eye Jab. By subtracting 2d6 from your sneak attack, you can cause your target to become blinded until the end of your next turn.
Hamstring. By subtracting 1d6 from your sneak attack, you reduce your target’s speed by half until the end of its next turn.
Kidney Shot. By subtracting 2d6 from your sneak attack, you cause your target to gain a level of exhaustion until the end of its next turn.

Bonus proficiencies. You gain proficiency with medium armor and two light or one-handed melee weapons of your choice. In addition, you treat unarmed strike and any light or one-handed melee weapon you have proficiency with as if it had the Finesse property. At 9th level, and again at 13th and 17th level, you gain proficiency with an additional light or one-handed melee weapon of your choice.

9th level:
Painful Strike. You may add your Charisma modifier to your damage rolls whenever you hit with a melee weapon attack if you meet the requirements to deal sneak attack damage.

13th level:
Improved Dirty Trick. You learn how to make your Dirty Tricks more difficult to shrug off. For each cumulative amount of dice you subtract from your sneak attack, you extend the duration of a dirty trick by one round.

17th level:
Greater Dirty Trick <WIP>. You can inflict your target with two different dirty tricks at once.


I tried to intentionally word the abilities so that you could, indeed, use unarmed strike with all of them, should you want to. However, I also left unarmed strike otherwise intentionally unchanged in regards to its base damage.

[NaughtyTiger]

Gawd! I love Dirty Strike. It is a different mechanic than maneuvers. I am curious how it will play.

[nickl_2000]

First thoughts. Pretty much the entirety of this subclass is combat based.

Thief level 3, 9, and 13 are non-combat
Assassin Level 3 (one of them), level 9, and level 13 are non combat.

Where is the bonus to intimidation from a thug? Where is the social tier aspect of the game?


As for Dirty trick, I think the conditions are to easy to cause on enemies. First off, you need a save of some sort to apply them. Ear Slap is WAY better than the monk's stunning strike ability as it is right now in the sense that you can use it all day long and there is no save. There needs to be different saves for each ability. I would also look at the condition it applies and add to the amount of d6s that it reduces.

-Demoralize should be 2d6 to put it closer to the fear spell (but still sooner since it isn't nearly as good).
-Distract, I would actually make this 1d6, but still have a save. It isn't all that different from vicious mockery
-Ear slap should be 3d6 to put it on level for when a Monk gets stunning strike
-Eye Jab looks good since it's on par with the blindness spell.
-Hamstring, I'm good with this since it is similar to cantrips
-Kidney Shot. This would only be conditionally any good (when there is someone else also causing exhaustion). Level 1 of exhaustion gives disadvantage on ability checks, so it isn't nearly as good as causing stunned or Frightened condition (which do similar things and also give more).

As a side note, why would I ever use the distract ability when I can stun (where they can't attack) or Blind (where all attacks are at disadvantage).

Painful Strike. This ability is kind of meh to me. I'm a rogue, I'm dropping a fistful of d6s every time I sneak attack. Adding in extra damage from a non-main stat isn't all that great. I would look at other possible options here that are either non-combat or more fluffly abilities.

Improved Dirty Trick I think this one is to much here. Can you imagine being able stun someone for 3 rounds? There wouldn't ever be a time I wouldn't be doing this!



So some possible other abilities to consider
Always Ready for a Fight - A thug is always ready to get into a fight. As such, they gain double their dexterity (con? int?) bonus to initiative.
Intimidating Presence - A thug is skilled at providing an intimidating presence around others. When they help an ally with intimidate check, the ally gains double their charisma bonus to their roll as well as the normal advantage granted to helping.
Bruiser - Thugs have been fighting and taking a beating their entire life. As such, their body has toughened beyond the normal person. They gain proficiency in Constitution saving throws.
Quick Recovery - Thugs have been beaten up over and over again and still get back up. When a thug uses HD to recover during a short rest, they can re-roll all 1s and 2s when regaining HP. They must take the second roll.
Quick Recovery (alt) - You've taken a lot of beatings in your life and have learned to quickly recover from them. As such, once per long rest you can spend 1 minute taking a breather and gain the benefits of a short rest.
Always Armed - You are always armed and always keep weapons about you. You get a bonus for hiding weapons from others of some sort (dagger in the boot, etc).


I'll drop more possible thoughts if I think of them.

[jiriku]

The thing that jumps out at me is that almost everything in the archetype is focused on improving sneak attack. Sneak attack is not the only class feature that rogues have, and the word "thug" conjures up a mental image that is more than someone who specializes in dealing precise, deadly injuries. I'd encourage less sneak attack porn and more thuggishness.

You have some good suggestions from Nickl. I especially like gaining proficiency with Con saves and being able to help others intimidate. In movies, the shady fellow always has a couple of thugs on hand to lend him an intimidating presence.

[Arkhios]

I wrote a long reply a while ago on my phone, but when I tried to send it, my phone decided it didn't have internet connection for whatever reason (had to boot the device, and poof there goes the long post :smallsigh:).

Anyway, here are the key points of it:

I realized that Dirty Tricks should, indeed offer a saving throw to avoid and/or end the condition early, which is what I will implement.
I also realized that Dirty Tricks doesn't explain how it would work in the case of a critical hit, but my intention was that you would subtract dice before you multiply them for damage roll.

What I didn't realize (to my shame; I guess I'm a bit rusted, not having done any homebrewing in a long time), was that the archetype should have non-combat features as well, and currently it is purely combat oriented. This I will definitely fix as soon as I'm able.

I saw nickl_2000 posted a reply, but I didn't read it yet as I had to "explain myself" first, so to speak :smallredface:

I'll read it now, and edit my response below.

Having read it now, here are my thoughts:

First thoughts. Pretty much the entirety of this subclass is combat based.

Thief level 3, 9, and 13 are non-combat
Assassin Level 3 (one of them), level 9, and level 13 are non combat.

Where is the bonus to intimidation from a thug? Where is the social tier aspect of the game?
Fair assesment. Intimidation is definitely a big thing Thug should have an edge for. I'll look into possibilities to add one or two.

For next part, I'll reply inside the quote in my favorite color (maroon) ^^

As for Dirty trick, I think the conditions are to easy to cause on enemies. First off, you need a save of some sort to apply them. Ear Slap is WAY better than the monk's stunning strike ability as it is right now in the sense that you can use it all day long and there is no save. There needs to be different saves for each ability. I would also look at the condition it applies and add to the amount of d6s that it reduces.
Yeah, I'll add saving throw mechanics (I think it should allow either Strength or Dexterity as the modifier because thugs are just as likely to be strong as they are likely to be agile)

-Demoralize should be 2d6 to put it closer to the fear spell (but still sooner since it isn't nearly as good). Fair
-Distract, I would actually make this 1d6, but still have a save. It isn't all that different from vicious mockery. True. A fair assesment.
-Ear slap should be 3d6 to put it on level for when a Monk gets stunning strike. I knew I should have listened to my gut-feeling about this... I'll fix it.
-Eye Jab looks good since it's on par with the blindness spell. At least something works :P
-Hamstring, I'm good with this since it is similar to cantrips. As with Eye Jab, glad that this one works.
-Kidney Shot. This would only be conditionally any good (when there is someone else also causing exhaustion). Level 1 of exhaustion gives disadvantage on ability checks, so it isn't nearly as good as causing stunned or Frightened condition (which do similar things and also give more). True. Exhaustion is somewhat 'mild' in that alone it doesn't do much, but after it starts to build up, it becomes incredibly dangerous.

As a side note, why would I ever use the distract ability when I can stun (where they can't attack) or Blind (where all attacks are at disadvantage). Fair, I just felt distract would fit in with the others. Would something like disarm be better?


Painful Strike. This ability is kind of meh to me. I'm a rogue, I'm dropping a fistful of d6s every time I sneak attack. Adding in extra damage from a non-main stat isn't all that great. I would look at other possible options here that are either non-combat or more fluffly abilities.
I should try and re-iterate the description for this, as I meant you'd get to add your charisma even if you had dealt sneak attack damage on your turn already. Then again, now that I think of it, I suppose it would still be rather lame. Maybe it's just wise to drop it in favor of something else.


Improved Dirty Trick I think this one is to much here. Can you imagine being able stun someone for 3 rounds? There wouldn't ever be a time I wouldn't be doing this!
Agreed, funnily enough. I guess I put that one as a placeholder more than anything definite.



So some possible other abilities to consider
Always Ready for a Fight - A thug is always ready to get into a fight. As such, they gain double their dexterity (con? int?) bonus to initiative.
Intimidating Presence - A thug is skilled at providing an intimidating presence around others. When they help an ally with intimidate check, the ally gains double their charisma bonus to their roll as well as the normal advantage granted to helping.
Bruiser - Thugs have been fighting and taking a beating their entire life. As such, their body has toughened beyond the normal person. They gain proficiency in Constitution saving throws.
Quick Recovery - Thugs have been beaten up over and over again and still get back up. When a thug uses HD to recover during a short rest, they can re-roll all 1s and 2s when regaining HP. They must take the second roll.
Quick Recovery (alt) - You've taken a lot of beatings in your life and have learned to quickly recover from them. As such, once per long rest you can spend 1 minute taking a breather and gain the benefits of a short rest.
Always Armed - You are always armed and always keep weapons about you. You get a bonus for hiding weapons from others of some sort (dagger in the boot, etc).
There are very good ideas in this, though I think I'll try and balance the scale towards more social abilities, rather than towards abilities that affect combat indirectly.


I'll drop more possible thoughts if I think of them.
Take your time, I look forward to discussing this further! :)

[nickl_2000]

Fair, I just felt distract would fit in with the others. Would something like disarm be better?

Most of your other abilities here are hitting someone in a way that would be considered a low blow. So, I would consider to replace it with something else to make it more thematic. I make no claim about the voracity of balance of these, they are just some I came up with off the top of my head.

-Pulling hair - sacrifice a 1d6 to drag them 5 feet by their hair
-Crotch shot - sacrifice 1d6 to cause the person to take 2d6 damage on the next round of continued damage
-Leg Sweep - sacrifice 3d6 to knock them prone
-Throat Punch - Sacrifice 3d6 to make it so they can't talk or make more than rudimentary noises for 1 round
-Hamstring could be renamed into Foot stomp
-Armtwist - Sacrifice 2d6 to put the person into a grapple at the end of it. Alternately it can be a disarm, but I would do 3d6 for that.

You may want to re-consider the demoralize as well since it is less of a dirty hit and more of a mental thing, but that is just a thought.

Also, you may want to consider limiting this like the battlemaster does. You know a certain amount of moves and as you level you learn new ones. It would help to limit the power somewhat since you can do these all day long without resources.

[Arkhios]

Most of your other abilities here are hitting someone in a way that would be considered a low blow. So, I would consider to replace it with something else to make it more thematic. I make no claim about the voracity of balance of these, they are just some I came up with off the top of my head.

-Pulling hair - sacrifice a 1d6 to drag them 5 feet by their hair
-Crotch shot - sacrifice 1d6 to cause the person to take 2d6 damage on the next round of continued damage
-Leg Sweep - sacrifice 3d6 to knock them prone
-Throat Punch - Sacrifice 3d6 to make it so they can't talk or make more than rudimentary noises for 1 round
-Hamstring could be renamed into Foot stomp
-Armtwist - Sacrifice 2d6 to put the person into a grapple at the end of it. Alternately it can be a disarm, but I would do 3d6 for that.

You may want to re-consider the demoralize as well since it is less of a dirty hit and more of a mental thing, but that is just a thought.

Also, you may want to consider limiting this like the battlemaster does. You know a certain amount of moves and as you level you learn new ones. It would help to limit the power somewhat since you can do these all day long without resources.

I'd like to emphasize that the feature is called Dirty Trick and the intent was that a thug could combine various rider effects on their sneak attacks either after or as part of the hit, at a cost of dealing slightly less damage with them.

I suppose I should add a limitation to how often you can do them throughout the day, in a similar way as Battle Master has. I'm not sure how often that should be though. Battle Master is able to use them multiple times per turn, while rogue can only deal sneak attack damage only once per turn. The "difficulty" lies in how to compare these two features.

Regarding Hamstring, I see no point in renaming it. Hamstring already has a meaning and it has some traditional value.

I think I will combine Ear Slam and Kidney Shot into one Dirty Trick (name TBD) that leaves the target stunned if it fails the saving throw at the cost of 3d6 less damage with sneak attack.

I'm still working on the actual mechanic how to distribute different Dirty Trick options for Thug to learn, but I'll probably end up using something similar to how Eldritch Invocations are chosen.

[sandmote]

Intimidating Presence - A thug is skilled at providing an intimidating presence around others. When they help an ally with intimidate check, the ally gains double their charisma bonus to their roll as well as the normal advantage granted to helping.

I particularly like this one, although I'd base it off of your ability with that skill rather than the other player's. Something closer to this:
Sly Aid You are skilled at making an ally's statements more convincing. When you use the help action to aid another creature's intimidation or deception check, they can add your proficiency bonus for that skill to their roll, assuming you are proficient in that skill. This is in addition to the normal effects of the help action.


I suppose I should add a limitation to how often you can do them throughout the day, in a similar way as Battle Master has. I'm not sure how often that should be though. Battle Master is able to use them multiple times per turn, while rogue can only deal sneak attack damage only once per turn. The "difficulty" lies in how to compare these two features.

I think that giving up damage vs. gaining it leaves dirty trick fairly well balanced compared to the battle master's maneuvers. As you level, the battle master can use maneuvers more often and sooner in combat. Over the same period, the thug gives up a smaller portion of their sneak attack damage. As long as the thug can't set off a bunch of dirty tricks whenever they're most useful and never gets to use them more often, both abilities should be close in power/utility without working the same way.

Edit: typo

[Arkhios]

I particularly like this one, although I'd base it off of your ability with that skill rather than the other player's. Something closer to this:
Sly Aid You are skilled at making an ally's statements more convincing. When you use the help action to aid another creature's intimidation or deception check, they can add your proficiency bonus for that skill to their roll, assuming you are proficient in that skill. This is in addition to the normal effects of the help action.



I think that giving up damage vs. gaining it leaves dirty trick fairly well balanced compared to the battle master's maneuvers. As you level, the battle master can use maneuvers more often and sooner in combat. Over the same period, the thug gives up a smaller portion of their sneak attack damage. As long as the thug can't set off a bunch of dirty tricks whenever they're most useful and never gets to use them more often, both abilities should be close in power/utility without working the same way.

Edit: typo

First of all, I do kinda like the approach you have for Sly Aid, but I think that your proficiency bonus doesn't really represent your presence in the given situation. I'd say that either your Charisma or Strength modifier would be better.
Plus, I think that Thug is more focused towards Intimidation that Deception, really.

How about this:

Mob Rule:
You have an assertive demeanor, even when you aren't the active part of a social interaction. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make using Intimidation. Additionally, When you use the help action to aid another creature's intimidation check, they can add your Charisma or Strength modifier to their roll (whichever is higher), in addition to the normal effects of the help action.

[...]

Secondly, thank you for your encouraging words regarding the basic mechanic for Dirty Trick, though I might make a slight change to how they work. However, I'd like to hear feedback on this before I implement it for the rest.


Demoralize:
As a Bonus Action, you can attempt to demoralize your target. Next time you hit and would deal Sneak Attack damage before the start of your next turn, you can subtract a minimum of 2d6 from your Sneak Attack damage roll. If you do, the target must make a Wisdom Saving Throw or it's frightened of you until the start of your next turn. For each additional 1d6 you subtract, you can affect one more target of your choice within 15 feet of you, up to a maximum of four targets at 5d6.

[...]

I think that, with a format like this, each Thug would be able to know two Dirty Tricks at first, and learn more at later levels (perhaps at same levels as Arcane Trickster would learn spells of higher levels: 7th, 13th, and 19th; ending up with a total of 5 Dirty Tricks to use)

[sandmote]

Plus, I think that Thug is more focused towards Intimidation that Deception, really.
Using the thug's charisma and Strength bonuses probably works better than their proficiency bonus, but I think they should get a slightly wider bonus than just intimidation. I went with deception because it's also related to criminal activity and as a reference to the original thugs, who used deception to make their kills and intimidation to keep their organizations from being caught.
Either way, Mob Rule is definitely better than Sly Aid.


Demoralize:
As a Bonus Action, you can attempt to demoralize your target. Next time you hit and would deal Sneak Attack damage before the start of your next turn, you can subtract a minimum of 2d6 from your Sneak Attack damage roll. If you do, the target must make a Wisdom Saving Throw or it's frightened of you until the start of your next turn. For each additional 1d6 you subtract, you can affect one more target of your choice within 15 feet of you, up to a maximum of four targets at 5d6.

If you're considering making this as a basic part of dirty trick, have it scale linearly. I generally agree with nickl_2000's cost for these abilities, and making the extra targets cheaper to affect messes with that balance. Otherwise, I think allowing you to use dirty trick on many targets at once is a bit strong. Sure you're giving up most of your damage, but then the rest of your party can get a lot more done.
I don't like having dirty trick cost a bonus action. You're already giving up damage to use it, also using up part of your action economy feels like double jeopardy.

I think that, with a format like this, each Thug would be able to know two Dirty Tricks at first, and learn more at later levels (perhaps at same levels as Arcane Trickster would learn spells of higher levels: 7th, 13th, and 19th; ending up with a total of 5 Dirty Tricks to use)
If you're going to limit the number of these an individual thug knows, I'm going to recommend a few more.

Bowl Over. By subtracting 2d6 from your sneak attack, you can cause your target to be staggered, and if they are large or smaller, they must make a dexterity saving throw or be knocked prone.
Long Blow. By subtracting 2d6 from your sneak attack, you can target a second creature within 5 feet of the original target and within your reach. If the original attack roll would hit the second creature, it takes 2d6 damage of the same type dealt by the original attack.
Loot. By subtracting 1d6 from your sneak attack, you can attempt to take an item held by your target. The target must make a strength saving throw or drop one item it is holding of your choice. If the target is holding this item with two hands, it has advantage on the saving throw.
Body Shield By subtracting 3d6 from your sneak attack, you can attempt to block incoming attacks using your target. Your target must make a strength saving throw. If they fail the saving throw you can use your reaction to make that creature the target of the first attack made against you before the end of your next turn or until they are no longer within 5 feet of you.

[Arkhios]

Using the thug's charisma and Strength bonuses probably works better than their proficiency bonus, but I think they should get a slightly wider bonus than just intimidation. I went with deception because it's also related to criminal activity and as a reference to the original thugs, who used deception to make their kills and intimidation to keep their organizations from being caught.
Either way, Mob Rule is definitely better than Sly Aid.
Hmm. Fair point. Although, a similar case could be made for Persuasion, if you look at thugs as sort of organized criminals, e.g. mafia, which would have an equal knack for diplomatic persuasion as well. ...Would it be too much if thug would get three extra "expertises" as a sub-class feature (deception, intimidation, and persuasion) as well as granting a bonus on a help action with those skills?


If you're considering making this as a basic part of dirty trick, have it scale linearly. I generally agree with nickl_2000's cost for these abilities, and making the extra targets cheaper to affect messes with that balance. Otherwise, I think allowing you to use dirty trick on many targets at once is a bit strong. Sure you're giving up most of your damage, but then the rest of your party can get a lot more done.
It certainly is a bit weird if any extras for any given Dirty Trick would scale differently from the initial cost. I guess it would be fine if those Dirty Tricks that scale would do so in increments of 2d6.
I guess it's a bit odd if, for example, Demoralize would affect more than one target, when you only dealt damage to one target. What if I took one step back, and went with the idea that incremental extra effect would increase the duration rather than the amount of targets?
For example: with a cost of 2d6 would affect the target for 1 round, 4d6 for 2 rounds, 6d6 for 3 rounds, 8d6 for 4 rounds, and 10d6 for 5 rounds. Each of which would still allow the target to make a save to end it earlier?


I don't like having dirty trick cost a bonus action. You're already giving up damage to use it, also using up part of your action economy feels like double jeopardy.
If it's only limited by the times you can make sneak attacks per turn, I feel that Dirty Trick would be stronger in comparison to Battle Master's maneuvers, which can be used only a limited number of times per short rest. Evaluating the situational worth for Action Economy was the idea, although I'm willing to change it if found unnecessarily troublesome.


If you're going to limit the number of these an individual thug knows, I'm going to recommend a few more.

Bowl Over. By subtracting 2d6 from your sneak attack, you can cause your target to be staggered, and if they are large or smaller, they must make a dexterity saving throw or be knocked prone.
Long Blow. By subtracting 2d6 from your sneak attack, you can target a second creature within 5 feet of the original target and within your reach. If the original attack roll would hit the second creature, it takes 2d6 damage of the same type dealt by the original attack.
Loot. By subtracting 1d6 from your sneak attack, you can attempt to take an item held by your target. The target must make a strength saving throw or drop one item it is holding of your choice. If the target is holding this item with two hands, it has advantage on the saving throw.
Body Shield By subtracting 3d6 from your sneak attack, you can attempt to block incoming attacks using your target. Your target must make a strength saving throw. If they fail the saving throw you can use your reaction to make that creature the target of the first attack made against you before the end of your next turn or until they are no longer within 5 feet of you.
By all means, any suggestions for more tricks are more than welcome. The list I had in the Original Post was far from complete; they were just ones I had come up with.

[sandmote]

Hmm. Fair point. Although, a similar case could be made for Persuasion, if you look at thugs as sort of organized criminals, e.g. mafia, which would have an equal knack for diplomatic persuasion as well.
I didn't want to expand moch more than you had, which is why I went with the other criminal-like charisma skill.


...Would it be too much if thug would get three extra "expertises" as a sub-class feature (deception, intimidation, and persuasion) as well as granting a bonus on a help action with those skills?
Expertise for three skills is fairly strong. Maybe make it a choice?
Something like:
Sly Aid (V2).
You gain proficiency in Intimidation, and either Deception or Persuasion (your choice). If you are already proficient in Intimidation, you add double your proficiency bonus to checks you make with it. When you use the help action to aid another creature and they make a check for either intimidation or the skill you chose, they can add your Charisma or Strength modifier to their roll (whichever is higher) in addition to the normal effects of the help action.


It certainly is a bit weird if any extras for any given Dirty Trick would scale differently from the initial cost. I guess it would be fine if those Dirty Tricks that scale would do so in increments of 2d6.
I guess it's a bit odd if, for example, Demoralize would affect more than one target, when you only dealt damage to one target. What if I took one step back, and went with the idea that incremental extra effect would increase the duration rather than the amount of targets?
For example: with a cost of 2d6 would affect the target for 1 round, 4d6 for 2 rounds, 6d6 for 3 rounds, 8d6 for 4 rounds, and 10d6 for 5 rounds. Each of which would still allow the target to make a save to end it earlier?
This is a lot better than the multi-target version, but still feels unnecessary. Between the increased chance of giving the player choice paralysis, how awkward it would be when the target immediately makes their saving throw against something that cost 10d6, and how it would compare to spells with similar (but more limited effects) I don't see the point. I realize that's not very constructive and apologize.
Maybe only to last a second round starting from 13th level, but even then...

If this doesn't get used, I was thinking you could balance Kidney Shot by having it last 5 rounds (on a failed save). If a player gets this to work perfectly they could kill a bulky target like that, but more often they're just getting a harsher effect from attacking a single target for multiple rounds.


If it's only limited by the times you can make sneak attacks per turn, I feel that Dirty Trick would be stronger in comparison to Battle Master's maneuvers, which can be used only a limited number of times per short rest. Evaluating the situational worth for Action Economy was the idea, although I'm willing to change it if found unnecessarily troublesome.
I see three levers to pull to balance dirty tricks with maneuvers. (excluding how long the effects last).

How many effects you can cause when you need them most. Thugs are limited to one per turn. Battle masters can dump out more when from when get extra attack onward. They can make a second such attack tarting from level 5, a third from level 11, and a fourth at level 20.
How much damage they do. Most maneuvers increase your damage output. All dirty tricks reduce it.
How long you can continue using them without rest. This is the only lever where dirty tricks have an advantage over maneuvers.

As a result, I find the two abilities as being about as strong as each other. Their strengths lie in different places, but I see that as a feature rather than a bug.

[Arkhios]

By now it's clear that the 9th, 13th, and 17th level features need a full revision, due to being so front-loaded towards combat.
However, due to the nature of my work, I'm forced to do the changes over a long time. Bear with me, I haven't forgotten this. I have a work in progress Homebrewery Document which I'll post here when I'm finished with the draft 2.

It's also clear I have to adjust the 3rd level feature(s) as well. Currently I'm thinking there will be two features at 3rd level (or rather three, with the 3rd being a fairly small addition to 2nd feature).

First of all, I decided to go with the Sly Aid (v2) more or less as was suggested (kudos to Sandmote for providing aid with that), but I decided to change the feature's name to Streetwise, as it is somewhat more neutral and simultaneously versatile term.

As for the second feature, I borrowed the name of a Rogue build option "Ruthless Ruffian" from 4th edition, which is somewhat in line what I was going for with this archetype. With Ruthless Ruffian, I included the more combat oriented features of Thug: the ability to make sneak attacks with a wider range of weapons and Dirty Tricks.

I'm trying yet another approach for Dirty Tricks: Each Dirty Trick will have a normal cost (sneak attack reduction ranging from 1d6 to 3d6) and an alternative cost (double the normal cost). These alternative uses are, obviously, recognizably stronger than the normal uses, and require a higher level to be used.

Also, Sandmote did provide a solid argument why Dirty Tricks would be fine if they didn't require a Bonus Action in addition to being limited by the fact how often Sneak Attack is even possible to be made. Thus, I have decided to drop that too.

Aside from balancing the Dirty Tricks with each other (relatively speaking) and spells which some of them resemble, I'll try to shift my focus towards the archetype features at later levels (most of them in the first draft were either broken or weak, or simply too combat oriented compared to other rogue archetypes).

But here's a new list of Dirty Tricks. Note that some of them are combinations of previously shown (and suggested) Dirty Tricks.


Body Shield
By subtracting 3d6 from your sneak attack, you can attempt to avoid incoming attacks using your target. Your target must make a Strength saving throw. If it fails, you can use your reaction to make that creature the target of the first attack made against you before the end of your next turn or until they are no longer within 5 feet of you.

Alternatively, by subtracting 6d6 from your sneak attack, you can attempt to avoid incoming attacks or spells using your target. Your target must make a Strength saving throw. If it fails, you can use your reaction to make that creature the target of the first spell or attack targeted at you before the end of your next turn or until they are no longer within 5 feet of you.

Demoralize
By subtracting 2d6 from your Sneak Attack, your target must make a Wisdom saving throw or it's frightened of you until the end of its next turn.

Alternatively, by subtracting 4d6 from your Sneak Attack, your target must make a Wisdom saving throw or it's paralyzed until the end of its next turn. The target may repeat this saving throw at the start of its next turn.

Disorientate
By subtracting 2d6 from your sneak attack, the target must make a Constitution saving throw, or it's deafened, blinded, or can't talk or make more than rudimentary noises (your choice), until the end of its next turn.

Alternatively, by subtracting 4d6 from your sneak attack, the target must make a Constitution save, or it's stunned until the end of its next turn. The target may repeat this saving throw at the start of its next turn.

Hamstring
By subtracting 1d6 from your sneak attack, your target must make a Dexterity saving throw, or its speed is reduced by half until the end of its next turn.

Alternatively, by subtracting 2d6 from your sneak attack, the target must make a Dexterity saving throw, or it's knocked prone and can't move until the end of its next turn. The target may repeat this saving throw at the start of its next turn to move normally.

Internal Bleed
By subtracting 1d6 from your sneak attack, your target must make a Constitution saving throw, or it takes 1d6 damage of the same type dealt by the original attack at the start of its next turn. The target may repeat this saving throw at the start of its next turn to negate the effect. This damage is not doubled even if the original attack was a critical hit.

Alternatively, by subtracting 2d6 from your sneak attack, the target takes 2d6 damage of the same type dealt by the original attack at the start of its next turn. The target may repeat this saving throw at the start of its next turn to negate the effect. This damage is not doubled even if the original attack was a critical hit.

Slice and Dice
By subtracting 3d6 from your sneak attack, you can target a second creature within 5 feet of the original target and within your reach. If the original attack roll would hit the second creature, it takes 3d6 damage of the same type dealt by the original attack. This damage is not doubled even if the original attack was a critical hit.

Alternatively, by subtracting 6d6 from your sneak attack, you can target up to two different creatures within 5 feet of the original target and within your reach. If the original attack roll would hit the secondary targets, each take 3d6 damage of the same type dealt by the original attack. This damage is not doubled even if the original attack was a critical hit.

Wristlock
By subtracting 2d6 from your sneak attack, the target must make Strength or Dexterity saving throw (whichever is better), or it drops a weapon or item of your choice. Picking it up provokes an attack of opportunity from you.

Alternatively, if you have at least one hand free, you can subtract 4d6 from your sneak attack and attempt to grapple the target instead.



I did consider putting level requirements for some of the alternative uses, such as for Slice and Dice which is a pseudo-extra attack (so that you could learn it at 5th level), but I was unsure about how it would be perceived.

[sandmote]

Streetwise is a far better name, and the structure for the dirty tricks looks good.

If you want to limit the power of Slice and Dice, maybe have it lose a die in damage? For example, spend 3d6 to deal 2d6 as the pseudo-extra attack. That's going to be weaker than most extra attacks anyone gets. Otherwise, increasing the cost to 3d6 (ie. sneak attack damage at 5th level) was probably a good idea. I fully admit I didn't consider when you'd be able to use it when I first suggested a cost of 2d6.

If you're really worried about it, you can have Improved Dirty Trick unlock the alternative options.

Please do take your time, and I look forward to seeing what gets added.

[Arkhios]

Streetwise is a far better name, and the structure for the dirty tricks looks good.

If you want to limit the power of Slice and Dice, maybe have it lose a die in damage? For example, spend 3d6 to deal 2d6 as the pseudo-extra attack. That's going to be weaker than most extra attacks anyone gets. Otherwise, increasing the cost to 3d6 (ie. sneak attack damage at 5th level) was probably a good idea. I fully admit I didn't consider when you'd be able to use it when I first suggested a cost of 2d6.

If you're really worried about it, you can have Improved Dirty Trick unlock the alternative options.

Please do take your time, and I look forward to seeing what gets added.

Hmm. Improved Dirty Trick could indeed work as an unlock for those. And truth be told, I did feel a bit iffy about increasing the Dirty Trick costs above 5d6 (it is, after all, half of the maximum potential for sneak attack, and that's a threshold I'd rather not cross with Dirty Tricks). With the idea of losing a die in damage for Slice and Dice, the Improved version could cost 5d6, lose one die and then deal 2d6 to two targets.

As for the level of Improved Dirty Trick, would you agree that 17th is appropriate? It's a rather big change, and it could work as the "cap-stone" for Thug.

Edit: Here (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Sk7S_YjfRm) is what I have so far. I'm still trying to figure out a fitting feature for 13th level, but I intend it to be something focusing on the social side of the archetype. Aaaaaaaand it's done.

As always with Homebrewery, it's advised to use Chrome instead of any other browser, because the layout can get wonky with other browsers.

[sandmote]

As for the level of Improved Dirty Trick, would you agree that 17th is appropriate? It's a rather big change, and it could work as the "cap-stone" for Thug.
It seems in line with the 17th level abilities for the other rogue subclasses.

I really like Grit (as it grants both bulk and some flavor to that bulk). My only note is that I'd add "and increases by 1 again whenever you gain a level in this class," at the end of the first paragraph. I'm assuming you meant that, but they bothered to specify it for the Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer.

For clarity, here's what you have now:

By the time you reach 13th level, you have been hardened under duress. Your hit point maximum increases by one for each rogue level you have.
And here's what I'm suggesting you change to:

By the time you reach 13th level, you have been hardened under duress. Your hit point maximum increases by one for each rogue level you have and increases by 1 again whenever you gain a level in this class.
However, Factotum seems to be effectively the same as Jack of All Trades, which looks a bit odd to me. I'd rather lean into the physical aspect of the 'thug' theme, the same way Streetwise leans into the social aspect. I'm recommending such a version below, but I fully admit it's entirely a matter of personal preference.


Solid Guard.
Starting at 9th level, you steel your mind and body to focus on common threats when guarding. You focusing your mind allows you advantage on saving throws against being charmed or frightened when you can see the source of the effect.
Additionally, your trained bulk allows you to grant three quarters cover to allies instead of half cover, and count as one size larger when initiating a grapple check or attempting to move a creature you have grappled.

Either way, you've put together a flavorful subclass, and I definitely want to try it out soon.

[Arkhios]

It seems in line with the 17th level abilities for the other rogue subclasses.

I really like Grit (as it grants both bulk and some flavor to that bulk). My only note is that I'd add "and increases by 1 again whenever you gain a level in this class," at the end of the first paragraph. I'm assuming you meant that, but they bothered to specify it for the Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer.

However, Factotum seems to be effectively the same as Jack of All Trades, which looks a bit odd to me. I'd rather lean into the physical aspect of the 'thug' theme, the same way Streetwise leans into the social aspect. I'm recommending such a version below, but I fully admit it's entirely a matter of personal preference.


Solid Guard.
Starting at 9th level, you steel your mind and body to focus on common threats when guarding. You focusing your mind allows you advantage on saving throws against being charmed or frightened when you can see the source of the effect.
Additionally, your trained bulk allows you to grant three quarters cover to allies instead of half cover, and count as one size larger when initiating a grapple check or attempting to move a creature you have grappled.

Either way, you've put together a flavorful subclass, and I definitely want to try it out soon.

Aye, I meant that Grit would continue to increase the hit point maximum. Fixed that.

Admittedly, Factotum was a bit lazy addition, so I took your suggestion and changed it a little. I hope the result still has the same feel, though.

A fun fact: I have graduated as Security Officer, and as such I have training and experience as a guard. Plus, when I was in the army I served as MP.

While I understand that thug seems like a good guard (and definitely would work as such) I'd rather not confine the subclass to that concept alone and instead make it more universally applicable.


Stalwart
Starting at 9th level, your unflinching determination grants you advantage on saving throws against being charmed or frightened when you can see the source of the effect.

Additionally, your trained bulk allows you to grant three quarters cover to allies instead of half cover, and you count as one size larger when initiating a grapple check or attempting to move a creature you have grappled.

[sandmote]

Admittedly, Factotum was a bit lazy addition, so I took your suggestion and changed it a little. I hope the result still has the same feel, though.

While I understand that thug seems like a good guard (and definitely would work as such) I'd rather not confine the subclass to that concept alone and instead make it more universally applicable.

I have no problem admitting you are far better at naming things without pigeonholing the concept. If/When I submit homebrew for help with it, please do swing by to suggest better names (at the very least).

I don't have anything else useful to add, but I didn't want to simply vanish.

[Arkhios]

I have no problem admitting you are far better at naming things without pigeonholing the concept. If/When I submit homebrew for help with it, please do swing by to suggest better names (at the very least).

I don't have anything else useful to add, but I didn't want to simply vanish.

Don't worry, I plan to add a page with credits for all those who helped me finalize this subclass. Your participation won't be forgotten. :smallsmile:

And I will swing by if I happen to notice one of your creations someday :)

As an afterthought, I couldn't help but think that, while I try to design everything to stand on their own, thug would make a pretty great option for someone who might want to multiclass a Battlerager Barbarian with Rogue :smallbiggrin:

[stoutstien]

crap. this is so much better than my thug sub class. i love idea of using sneak attack dice as a fuel for the tricks. i have a barbarian sub class that trades hit dice for attack riders so i could see this being a really fun class to use.

[Arkhios]

crap. this is so much better than my thug sub class. i love idea of using sneak attack dice as a fuel for the tricks. i have a barbarian sub class that trades hit dice for attack riders so i could see this being a really fun class to use.

Thank you.

I am humbled by your words.

:smallredface:

Speaking of (homebrewed) rules for hit dice in 5th edition, you might be interested about my Warlord (see my signature).

[Great Dragon]

Ok, I read it over and had some concerns.
Mind you, I'm still getting the 'subtleties' of 5e.
Plus, I don't have a Playtest Group, or an experienced enough DM to try it.

I'll try to remember that you might not be aware of the most intricate details in the rules, but this is a long message to respond and I may forget it at times. It'll take a while for me to weed through it all, starting now:


The ability to "Double Proficiency in Intimidation" seems a bit much, since most Players that are taking this Subclass are going to Max out Cha, and put Expertise into it - and then add more on top of that with this bonus.

20th Level Thug = 6 Prof + 6 Expertise + 6 Subclass + 5 Cha = 23.
With Reliable Talent, this means that even a DC 30 is always ignored.

Maybe granting Advantage (still a +5 value, but if rolled - is not a guaranteed auto-success) to Intimidate?


Multiple occasions of doubled proficiency don't stack by Rules As Written and Rules As Intended (according to official FAQ). In other words, taking Expertise on top of the class ability either does nothing or is impossible (which is DM's call really). The situation you described never occurs.

Edit - Good to know - thanks.


I think that the suggestion by MThurston for "usable Dex mod times per Short/Long Rest" is interesting - but might not be needed since you included a Limiting Factor (in reducing Sneak Attack damage each time it is tried) so that even unlimited use would not really be too OP.

Agreed. <snip>


nickl_2000 had some interesting add-ons in the PEACH thread.

Always Ready for a Fight - A thug is always ready to get into a fight. As such, they gain double their dexterity (con? int?) bonus to initiative.
Not too far from Swashbuckler.
As I said in MThurston's thread, I prefer to try new mechanics instead of simply copying old ones; it's the reason that drives me to homebrew in the first place. Plus, that would make the sub-class either too straightforward and arguably even too strong (if they'd get double dex bonus to initiative), or since Thug is already leaning towards having either high Strength or high Charisma, adding Constitution or Intelligence (in addition) would make the sub-class lack any kind focus, instead being "all over the place".



Intimidating Presence- A thug is skilled at providing an intimidating presence around others. When they help an ally with intimidate check, the ally gains double their charisma bonus to their roll as well as the normal advantage granted to helping.
Would making the Thug spend an Action (Bonus/Reaction) be ok?

Or would having "Make any Initiative Rolls at Disadvantage" because the Thug is engaged in the Intimidation attempt, and are therefore 'surprised'?
Making the Thug spend a Bonus Action would certainly make this ability conform with the rest of the rogue sub-classes in that Thug would have another use for their Cunning Action, similar to other sub-classes. Definitely worth considering.

Thug's engagement in the Intimidation attempt causing disadvantage on Initiative rolls would definitely be interesting addition to it. I'll think about it.



Bruiser - Thugs have been fighting and taking a beating their entire life. As such, their body has toughened beyond the normal person. They gain proficiency in Constitution saving throws.
Maybe at Level 9? Since it basically duplicates a Feat?
Thug already gains saving throw proficiency with Constitution, but at 13th level. The reason being that 9th level feels a bit too early with multi-classing shenanigans on table. Besides, the feat could be taken at 12th level as well as at 8th level so its level doesn't matter that much otherwise. But mostly, it was because of my personal feeling why I decided that way.



Quick Recovery - Thugs have been beaten up over and over again and still get back up. When a thug uses HD to recover during a short rest, they can re-roll all 1s and 2s when regaining HP. They must take the second roll.
Quick Recovery (alt) - You've taken a lot of beatings in your life and have learned to quickly recover from them. As such, once per long rest you can spend 1 minute taking a breather and gain the benefits of a short rest.
The first should not be a problem.
The second seems a bit much, since almost no other Class can match this.
At least not that I've seen.


Always Armed- You are always armed and always keep weapons about you. You get a bonus for hiding weapons from others of some sort (dagger in the boot, etc).
Advantage to Sleight of Hand to do this. maybe?
I have thought through everything you can see in the homebrew design thread, before I released the latest draft. In other words, I have taken these suggestions into account, but eventually decided against them.


As for Tricks Known, why not start off around 3, and then gain new ones like a Battlemaster? This would make it where they are not more 'powerful' than the BM, just different.

Did you really read the final draft of Thug? It gives you the first tricks starting at 3rd level, and eventually gives more at levels 7th, 9th, 13th, and 17th. The actual list is placed at the end of the document for logistical reasons.


Arkhios

Mob Rule
You have an assertive demeanor, even when you aren't the active part of a social interaction. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make using Intimidation. Additionally, When you use the help action to aid another creature's intimidation check, they can add your Charisma or Strength modifier to their roll (whichever is higher), in addition to the normal effects of the help action.

This is nice.
Thanks.
- Edit: The first part is not really needed, since the Thug already gets that bonus from their Subclass.



Long Blow. By subtracting 2d6 from your sneak attack, you can target a second creature within 5 feet of the original target and within your reach. If the original attack roll would hit the second creature, it takes 2d6 damage of the same type dealt by the original attack.
Would this stack with Two-Weapon Fighting?

Yes. Although, I'd like to note I changed this Trick's name to Slice-and-dice, along with other minor adjustments, making it function as a pseudo-extra attack. I think I might add a clause that it doesn't stack with Extra Attack, however.



Body Shield By subtracting 3d6 from your sneak attack, you can attempt to block incoming attacks using your target. Your target must make a strength saving throw. If they fail the saving throw you can use your reaction to make that creature the target of the first attack made against you before the end of your next turn or until they are no longer within 5 feet of you.
I don't know - is a Str Save or a Opposed Str Check better?

Body Shield is one of the tricks I need to revise, because it seems to be causing problems in understanding how it would work. I guess making it require Opposed Str Check instead, when you attempt it, and make it require your Reaction.

--

Do note that I cut off a few points you quoted, because I didn't know what to say to them, either because I failed to see what you meant, or because they were someone else's ideas, and I felt it wasn't my place to reply.

Added Thoughts
sandmote

Sly Aid You are skilled at making an ally's statements more convincing. When you use the help action to aid another creature's intimidation or deception check, they can add your proficiency bonus for that skill to their roll, assuming you are proficient in that skill. This is in addition to the normal effects of the help action.
Not too bad. But I tend to agree that it should be based on an Ability Score.

Arkhios

Mob Rule
You have an assertive demeanor, even when you aren't the active part of a social interaction. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make using Intimidation. Additionally, When you use the help action to aid another creature's intimidation check, they can add your Charisma or Strength modifier to their roll (whichever is higher), in addition to the normal effects of the help action.

This is nice.


Demoralize:
As a Bonus Action, you can attempt to demoralize your target. Next time you hit and would deal Sneak Attack damage before the start of your next turn, you can subtract a minimum of 2d6 from your Sneak Attack damage roll. If you do, the target must make a Wisdom Saving Throw or it's frightened of you until the start of your next turn. For each additional 1d6 you subtract, you can affect one more target of your choice within 15 feet of you, up to a maximum of four targets at 5d6

Very cool. Makes that 'Hit this guy' and then look around and ask "Who's next?" very effective.

Like sandmote said

I don't like having dirty trick cost a bonus action. You're already giving up damage to use it, also using up part of your action economy feels like double jeopardy.
I kinda agree. - Edit: But, being able to affect other targets most likely should cost the Thug some kind of Action to use.
Bonus works, in that it's just another option.


sandmote
[QUOTE]Bowl Over. By subtracting 2d6 from your sneak attack, you can cause your target to be staggered, and if they are large or smaller, they must make a dexterity saving throw or be knocked prone.
Seems ok.

Arkhios

Disregard what I said about Constitution Saving throw in my previous PM. I had forgotten that I replaced it completely with a mechanic of my own instead.

Just printed out the updated Thug.
Will review and then post.

Anyone interested in checking out - and playtesting - my Rogue-ish types?
(Removing links to avoid cross-posting)
Rogue Subclass: The Guide.
and
Converting 3-5 Factotum to 5e.
Note - there are at least two other attempts for "Converting" Factotum.
One posted in this Thread, and another in the main Homebrew.

[Arkhios]

I'd like to clarify that Great Dragon's post (above) was mostly copied from our PM.

However, I'd like to note that I said this:


"Multiple occasions of doubled proficiency don't stack by Rules As Written and Rules As Intended (according to official FAQ). In other words, taking Expertise on top of the class ability either does nothing or is impossible (which is DM's call really). The situation you described never occurs."

...to which Great Dragon replied:


"Good to know - thanks."

Just to be clear, as now it seems as if it was the other way around. Which wasn't the case.

[Great Dragon]

Just to be clear, as now it seems as if it was the other way around. Which wasn't the case.

Sorry about that.

Tried to Edit and change Quoted Test for less confusion, but does not seem to work.

Checked out new Thug - looks good.