Would darkness dispel faerie fire?

[holywhippet]

The darkness spell says it dispels any light producing spell in it's area of effect if the come from a spell of level 2 or lower. Does that mean that faerie fire would be dispelled by it since it? Also, since it says the spell that created the light will be dispelled, would that mean it cancels faerie fire on everyone affect by that same casting?

[Spiritchaser]

To the first part of the question I would rule yes. The effect is light, it is light from a first level spell, darkness should dispel it.

The second part, dispel on all targets or one is less clear, but I’d direct you to a sage advice on dispel magic. Yes I know sage advice is not the letter of the law, and dispel magic is not darkness, however:

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/10/09/dispel-magic-is-it-possible-to-choose-a-magical-effect-on-a-creature-without-targeting-the-creature/

EDIT: the relevant reply is right at the end

This would be decent evidence that it would only dispel Faerie Fire on the target in the AoE of the darkness spell.

For what it’s worth this seems the most logical and reasonable way to rule it.

[holywhippet]

I know dispel only works the effects on a person if you are targeting a character, but dispel magic has a very different wording than darkness has. I'm wondering if they were thinking about dancing lights with the description - taking out one would take out all of them.

[Trustypeaches]

Faerie Fire's main effect isn't producing light, it's inflicting the debuff that causes attackers to strike with advantage. The light is just a side effect.

[holywhippet]

It may be a side effect but it is still a light producing spell and thus darkness will snuff it out.

[Man_Over_Game]

Faerie Fire's main effect isn't producing light, it's inflicting the debuff that causes attackers to strike with advantage. The light is just a side effect.

Right, but Darkness explicitly says that if it covers light from a 2nd level spell or lower, the light and spell end.

This isn't a case of Faerie Fire creating light that makes the target easier to hit. This is a case of Darkness stating that it dispels spells that make light. Faerie Fire does, in fact, make light, so Darkness apparently dispels it.

[Callak_Remier]

Faerie fire clings to characters after the initial burst. However if a person under the effect of faerie fire is within Darkness's area of effect its effectively negated and dispelled.

[Man_Over_Game]

Full Relevant Quote from Darkness:

[...] If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled.




Full Relevant Quote from Faerie Fire:

Each object in a 20-foot cube within range is outlined in blue, green, or violet light (your choice). Any creature in the area when the spell is cast is also outlined in light if the area when the spell is cast is also outlined in light if it fails a Dexterity saving throw. For the duration, objects and affected creatures shed dim light in a 10-foot radius [...]





So, the way that reads is that if a magical light glow even TOUCHES the light shedding from a spell's light source, the light source spell is dispelled. With the way Dispel Magic works (where it can only dispel magic on a single source, not the entire spell), I'd say that Darkness can only dispel spells from light sources it's "touching".

So if you hit 4 things with Faerie Fire, Darkness touches the 10 foot radius of 3 of those things, it will dispel the Faerie Fire of 3 of them and 1 will remain under the effect of Faerie Fire.

It might seem a bit dumb, as most might require Darkness to surround the source before it's dispelled, but that's the RAW.

[Dalebert]

You could cast Faerie Fire with a 3rd level slot. BAM. Immune to being dispelled by Darkness and since it's magical light, it would illuminate the darkness.

Alternatively just carry around a 3rd level Continual Flame and it will always illuminate a Darkness spell.

[Man_Over_Game]

You could cast Faerie Fire with a 3rd level slot. BAM. Immune to being dispelled by Darkness and since it's magical light, it would illuminate the darkness.

Alternatively just carry around a 3rd level Continual Flame and it will always illuminate a Darkness spell.

I love that use of Continual Flame, btw. Great idea.

[holywhippet]

You could cast Faerie Fire with a 3rd level slot. BAM. Immune to being dispelled by Darkness and since it's magical light, it would illuminate the darkness.

Alternatively just carry around a 3rd level Continual Flame and it will always illuminate a Darkness spell.

I thought the rule on light/darkness spells was that it is the minimum spell slot was the one that is relevant, not the actual one used.

[Dalebert]

I thought the rule on light/darkness spells was that it is the minimum spell slot was the one that is relevant, not the actual one used.

Why are you under that impression? Under general rules of spells, a spell is considered to become the level of the slot used to cast it.

[Trustypeaches]

Full Relevant Quote from Darkness:

Full Relevant Quote from Faerie Fire:

So, the way that reads is that if a magical light glow even TOUCHES the light shedding from a spell's light source, the light source spell is dispelled. With the way Dispel Magic works (where it can only dispel magic on a single source, not the entire spell), I'd say that Darkness can only dispel spells from light sources it's "touching".

So if you hit 4 things with Faerie Fire, Darkness touches the 10 foot radius of 3 of those things, it will dispel the Faerie Fire of 3 of them and 1 will remain under the effect of Faerie Fire.

It might seem a bit dumb, as most might require Darkness to surround the source before it's dispelled, but that's the RAW.
So by this logic, Darkness would also dispel Create Bonfire, Flaming Sphere, or any of the Fire spells that also generate light?

[Dalebert]

So by this logic, Darkness would also dispel Create Bonfire, Flaming Sphere, or any of the Fire spells that also generate light?

I'm not a fan of the wording for sure. A chaotic evil RAW lawyer could make the case. I just like to hope that DMs make rational calls in such cases.

That said, I don't think it's a stretch at all to say that Faerie Fire is primarily a light-producing spell and it should apply. It might be special light that has extra benefits but it's still benefits because it's lighting up the enemy. the light is not just an incidental side effect as it is with Create Bonfire.

[holywhippet]

Why are you under that impression? Under general rules of spells, a spell is considered to become the level of the slot used to cast it.

This is why:

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/61997/darkness-vs-daylight-interactions

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/524712732528873472

[Asmotherion]

Not dispel just supress. As long as nobody can see the fearie fire no advantage is gained and Darkness impossed disadvantage as normal. Someone with devilsight on the other hand would see the fearie fire which still exists inside the Darkness.

[Lille]

This is why:

What the tweets are saying is that when cast using a higher-level spell slot, the spell is treated as if it was that level for any purpose such as Dispel Magic or Counterspell, but the spell only gains additional benefits from being higher-level if the spell includes an "At Higher Levels" entry. Thus, a Darkness cast at 4th level is a 4th-level spell, but its effects are equivalent to that of a 2nd-level Darkness. As such, it can only dispel 2nd-level or lower lights, but to dispel it with light you need a spell that can dispel 4th-level or lower darkness.

[ATHATH]

So by this logic, Darkness would also dispel Create Bonfire, Flaming Sphere, or any of the Fire spells that also generate light?
Would Color Spray also fall under this?

[holywhippet]

Not dispel just supress. As long as nobody can see the fearie fire no advantage is gained and Darkness impossed disadvantage as normal. Someone with devilsight on the other hand would see the fearie fire which still exists inside the Darkness.

No. It specifically says dispel. Not suppress.

[Asmotherion]

No. It specifically says dispel. Not suppress.

I suppose you're right. I didn't check the spell before answearing, but it does dispel light effects of a lower spell level. And Faerie Fiere is clearly a Light Effect.

[ATHATH]

I asked my group and my DM about this over Discord, and they brought up the point that the spell says "If any of this spell’s area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled."

So really, the question lies in what is considered to be an "area" of light. Does Color Spray's momentary cone of light count? Do the outlines produced by Faerie Fire count? Does the light created by a bonfire from the Create Bonfire spell count as being made by the Create Bonfire spell or the bonfire itself?

Personally, I'd say that if the light created by a spell is magical and covers an area, it counts. Of course, that doesn't really answer/clarify much...

[Tanarii]

So, the way that reads is that if a magical light glow even TOUCHES the light shedding from a spell's light source, the light source spell is dispelled. With the way Dispel Magic works (where it can only dispel magic on a single source, not the entire spell), I'd say that Darkness can only dispel spells from light sources it's "touching".

So if you hit 4 things with Faerie Fire, Darkness touches the 10 foot radius of 3 of those things, it will dispel the Faerie Fire of 3 of them and 1 will remain under the effect of Faerie Fire.
If you rule that it dispels Faerie Fire, it should end the spell. Since that's what it says. So if it touches any of the 10ft raidus of any creature, it would end for all of them and the caster would get their concentration back (so to speak), since the spell has ended.

[ATHATH]

If you rule that it dispels Faerie Fire, it should end the spell. Since that's what it says. So if it touches any of the 10ft raidus of any creature, it would end for all of them and the caster would get their concentration back (so to speak), since the spell has ended.
I doubt that it'd end for all of them. From the Sage Advice Compendium (http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf):

If dispel magic targets the magical effect from bless cast by a cleric, does it remove the effect on all the targets?
Dispel magic ends a spell on one target. It doesn’t end the same spell on other targets.
I think Darkness's dispelling effect would work in a similar way, no?

[jdolch]

The language of the Spell is pretty clear:


If any of this spell’s area overlaps with an area of light
created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that
created the light is dispelled.


This really leaves no room for interpretation. If a spell (2nd level or lower) creates light (i.e. a light-source and a sphere of illumination around the source) and that sphere of light intersects with a sphere of darkness, created by the Darkness spell, then the spell that created that light is dispelled. :smallbiggrin:

Whether or not the DM overrules that for balancing reasons is of course another question, but the wording of the spell leaves no room for interpretation as to what exactly is dispelled. Otherwise it would say something like "the spell-effect that creates the light is dispelled".

[Laserlight]

Saying "it leaves no room for interpretation", in a thread which is all about how to interpret is, seems a bit dubious.

I'd rule that Darkness dispels those instances of FF that it touches, but not those that it doesn't.

[Tanarii]

I doubt that it'd end for all of them. From the Sage Advice Compendium (http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf):

I think Darkness's dispelling effect would work in a similar way, no?
No. But only because I think The Sage made the wrong call about Dispel Magic. :smallamused:

[Man_Over_Game]

There is an important distinction with Dispel Magic vs. Darkness's description.

Dispel Magic says "Choose one creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends." Darkness says "the spell that created the light is dispelled".

They're very different. While it doesn't make much sense with Darkness dispelling all aspects of a light spell, that's the most accurate way of interpreting its description.

It's still dumb. A simple houserule will fix it.

[ATHATH]

There is an important distinction with Dispel Magic vs. Darkness's description.

Dispel Magic says "Choose one creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends." Darkness says "the spell that created the light is dispelled".

They're very different. While it doesn't make much sense with Darkness dispelling all aspects of a light spell, that's the most accurate way of interpreting its description.

It's still dumb. A simple houserule will fix it.
Isn't Dispel Magic what we refer (back) to when something is dispelled? Are the mechanics of dispelling defined anywhere else?

[Tanarii]

Isn't Dispel Magic what we refer (back) to when something is dispelled? Are the mechanics of dispelling defined anywhere else?
The difference he's referring to is the wording that if you choose a creature as target, the spell ends on that target. So it only ends on the target.

I don't agree with that interpretation of the wording of Dispel Magic. But he's got a point that the wording is different.

[jdolch]

Saying "it leaves no room for interpretation", in a thread which is all about how to interpret is, seems a bit dubious.

Not at all. I am saying the wording of the Darkness Spell leaves no room for interpretation as to what it says is going to happen. Maybe they didn't mean it or maybe they should have worded it differently, but they didn't. It's pretty clear in my Opinion. Of course we can discuss house rules, erratas, tweets etc. And also you are of course welcome to have you own opinion.

[qube]

n 99% of the cases,

to be fair - Fairie fire only gives advantage if you can see them ... so i
darkness + fairie fire'd creature
= darkness + fairie fire'd creature you can't see

... Fairie fire only gives advantage if you can see the target ...

= darkness + creature with irrelevant spell
= disadvantage

--------------
as for the other cases: there is no "real" solution. D&D 5e doesn't have the [light] descriptor anymore, so it's more of a touch-and-go situation.

... I'd say, sure - but only because 5e core lacks low level light spells. (you can't even upcast darkness to up the make it dispel higher level spells: it's "2nd level or less " - not "equal level or less" )

[Dalebert]

This is why:

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/61997/darkness-vs-daylight-interactions

That post agrees with me. Look at the last line.

"Similarly, continual flame can be cast from a 3rd level spell slot to create a torch whose light pierces magical darkness."



https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/524712732528873472


I think you're taking rules very specific to Darkness and to Daylight and mistakenly applying them as general rules. There's a common confusion regarding the Darkness spell (specifically) that Crawford explains here. The Darkness spell has no listed upcast benefit. It only ever dispels light spells of 2nd level or lower no matter what level you cast it at. Daylight is similar. It only dispels darkness spells of 3rd level or lower regardless of what level you cast it at.

So here's the thing. Darkness CAN be illuminated by magical light. If it fails to dispel the light, that light will illuminate it. It won't necessarily dispel the darkness spell (an effect specific to the Daylight spell) but it will illuminate it. Therefore, a continual flame cast at 3rd level or a Faerie Fire cast at 3rd level can't be dispelled by a Darkness spell and since they're magical light, they'll light up the darkness without dispelling it. As soon as the light from these spells leaves the area, the darkness would remain.

That's why you get the weird effect as described in the first post you linked--if you cast Darkness at 4th and Daylight at 4th. Neither spell can dispel the other so they both stick around, but since the Daylight is magical light, it will illuminate the darkness while they overlap.