Tiers for official 3.5 Classes until Level 6

[Jorunkun]

How would you tier the 3.5 classes under E6 rules (maybe including ‘capstone feats’).

Has this been done before?

[gkathellar]

Things are a little more even, but it can be hard to discuss because at early levels stuff is extremely dice-dependent. A caster can, hypothetically, shut down an entire combat encounter with one lucky Color Spray or Sleep. Or they can get one-offed by a lucky goblin.

Initiators are probably among the most consistent classes at those early levels.

[Kayblis]

I agree with the above post. Initiators are all about consistency. A Crusader 1 is the tankiest level 1 character you can make, and he still hits as hard as a fighter. I'd place the three initiator classes on the top spot along with Druid, simply because Druid is a powerhouse at any level. Below them would be the effective high-HD classes like Barbarian, Paladin and Fighter, simply because they are not outclassed at all by level 6, along with Cleric. Third spot would go to Rangers and Rogues and possibly Bards, because flat bonuses and extra dice at these low levels do make a difference. From then on, you can have d4 casters and the monk by 4th place because they're mostly a liability at this point in the game, only strating to pick up by level 5.

It's ironically an inversion of some laws of Tier lists, because spellcasting alone won't carry your ass when the max level is 6.

[Troacctid]

Meldshapers go up in ranking too. Incarnates can be real tough at low levels. Oh, and dragonfire adepts. Entangling Exhalation is hella formidable.

Warlocks are no slouches either with summon swarm at level 1. The invocation normally starts out super strong, but falls off fairly quickly as enemy saves outscale its fixed DCs. In a perpetually low-level environment, though, a DC 14 save against blindness is never going to become irrelevant.

On the flip side, shadowcaster gets dunked hard as its first real power spike is at level 7.

[Saintheart]

It's ironically an inversion of some laws of Tier lists, because spellcasting alone won't carry your ass when the max level is 6.

I'm pretty sure some castings of Tenser's Floating Disk could easily carry an ass, a donkey, or any sort of mule-like creature at level 6.

[Doctor Awkward]

It's ironically an inversion of some laws of Tier lists, because spellcasting alone won't carry your ass when the max level is 6.

It definitely does. You just occasionally have to be more creative.

I played an Elven Generalist Wizard 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 1 character that had access to any 3rd-level arcane spell capable of solving a problem. Thanks to Collegiate Wizard, he started the game with 14 spells, and gained 7 each time he leveled up. For his second epic feat I took Epic Spell: Scrying, and used an Eternal Wand of Shrink Item to carry the mirror around as a necklace charm. Most of the rest of his epic feats were spent on item creation since I had access to any spell I needed at any time.

His most noteworthy accomplishment was teaming up with the warlock to annihilate an entire company of troops that had camped at an abandoned fortress.

We needed something that the leader had. So we tracked them for five days until they made camp. I spent every single day using a Rod of Extend to prepare every single 2nd and 3rd level spell slot as Shink Item, decreasing about two and a half dozen or so several-thousand-pound rocks to about the size of bowling balls. We additionally prepared two barrels half-filled with sawdust and then topped off with oil (essentially bathtub pitch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_thermal_weapons#Pitch,_tar_and_resin) when mixed thoroughly), and then lit them on fire and shrunk those as well. We waited until nightfall and spent the entire encounter tossing these onto the army from about 250 feet in the air.

There were no survivors.

[rel]

I think tier 1 isn't really possible at low levels. A cleric or druid or a wizard with an arbitrary number of spells might have a lot of tricks by level 6 but I don't think you can solve all challenges using only level 3 spells.

Tier 2 is also a bit tricky, it requires a few game breaking tricks. You can't solve all challenges but your presence does invalidate entire classes of problem. Edge case builds can certainly do this but simply playing class X shouldn't be enough.

So, I'm going to say
drop all the Tier two and Tier one classes to tier three

Ultimately, the weakness of low tier classes has always been a lack of flexibility and options and that doesn't go away at low levels. The fighter still lacks the ability to contribute meaningfully to non-combat challenges and the wizard can still break the world once per encounter even at level 1.

Also, low HP isn't the huge weakness people make it out to be, it can be worked around with good character building and careful play. Having no good class features or being MAD is much harder to deal with.

[Crake]

I'd be tempted to place sorcerer above wizard honestly. Assuming you're playing e6 in an environment where scrolls aren't readily available for anyone and everyone to pick up, meaning if you want new spells, you'd have to get the e6 feat which gives you 3 spell levels worth of spells, either in your spell book or as spells known, after a few e6 feats, the sorcerer and wizard come up roughly even on spells known/spells/day, HOWEVER, the sorcerer can cast all his spells spontaneously. The sorcerer could eventually learn every spell up to 3rd level and cast it spontaneously, though that would involve going quite deep into e6 :smalltongue:

[ATHATH]

Wild Shape Mystic Ranger 6 is probably Tier 1 in this new tier list, as it gets 3rd level Ranger and Wizard spells (you DID take Sword of the Arcane Order, right?), Wild Shape, +6/+1 BAB, and 6+INT skills per level (x4 at 1st level). If that isn't the versatility and power that is expected of a Tier 1 E6 class, I don't know what is.

[Unavenger]

Remember that tiers don't just measure power, but also versatility. A fighter 1 can beat a wizard 1 in a fight, perhaps (though it's not a gimme when one failed will save will open the fighter up to a coup) but nothing the fighter can do stands up in versatility to "Detects poison in one creature or small object", "Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft", "Creates torches or other lights", "Figment sounds", "5-pound telekinesis" and "Makes minor repairs on an object", and that's before you remember that the wizard has first-level spells. By the time the wizard's level 6, they have the ability to change form into another one, to fly, to turn the whole party invisible, or to turn a small squad of enemies into a charnel pit in one action, to name but a few. A wizard is still tier 1 and a fighter tier 4 tops. A few tiers will change more noticeably, mainly those of the janky not-casters (Troacctid mentioned a few; hilariously, truenamers might also be decent because healing and the kinds of buffs that the truenamer can put out are actually relevant at low levels). For the most part, though, it's not changing much.

[Cosi]

There's really not a big enough divergence at E6 to justify the level of detail the Tiers want to provide. You could maybe get away with three levels of distinction, but honestly I think you'd be fine with two -- "this really sucks" and "this is good enough". There just aren't classes that are "pretty good" or "mediocre" to the same degree there are when considering the full level range.


Remember that tiers don't just measure power, but also versatility.

Those are not meaningfully distinct concepts. What tiers do, or at least should, measure is "ability to overcome problems". That can come from doing new things (versatility) or it can come from getting better at doing things you already do (power). But just gaining a bunch of new abilities that don't help you do anything useful, or gaining even bigger numbers in something where you already always win aren't things that matter.

[EldritchWeaver]

It's ironically an inversion of some laws of Tier lists, because spellcasting alone won't carry your ass when the max level is 6.


It definitely does. You just occasionally have to be more creative.

Let's see:


I played an Elven Generalist Wizard 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 1 character that had access to any 3rd-level arcane spell capable of solving a problem. Thanks to Collegiate Wizard, he started the game with 14 spells, and gained 7 each time he leveled up. For his second epic feat I took Epic Spell: Scrying, and used an Eternal Wand of Shrink Item to carry the mirror around as a necklace charm. Most of the rest of his epic feats were spent on item creation since I had access to any spell I needed at any time.

His most noteworthy accomplishment was teaming up with the warlock to annihilate an entire company of troops that had camped at an abandoned fortress.

We needed something that the leader had. So we tracked them for five days until they made camp. I spent every single day using a Rod of Extend to prepare every single 2nd and 3rd level spell slot as Shink Item, decreasing about two and a half dozen or so several-thousand-pound rocks to about the size of bowling balls. We additionally prepared two barrels half-filled with sawdust and then topped off with oil (essentially bathtub pitch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_thermal_weapons#Pitch,_tar_and_resin) when mixed thoroughly), and then lit them on fire and shrunk those as well. We waited until nightfall and spent the entire encounter tossing these onto the army from about 250 feet in the air.

There were no survivors.

Not sure, if "had access to any 3rd-level arcane spell capable of solving a problem" means Cleric-like access, but this is a power upgrade compared to wizards. "Collegiate Wizard, he started the game with 14 spells, and gained 7 each time he leveled up" seems possibly redundant, but is a power upgrade compared to wizards. "second epic feat"/"Most of the rest of his epic feats": How can you get epic feats at level 6? And several of them? Assuming that this is rules legal, once more a power upgrade compared to wizards. "Eternal Wand of Shrink Item" is also a gold saver, which is a power upgrade to people not buying this stuff. "We waited until nightfall and spent the entire encounter tossing these onto the army from about 250 feet in the air.": So you abused effectively a number of rules to collect enough items, which in effect even fighter with access to flight would allow to win. I'm reasonable sure, that people playing E6 don't include these options.

[16bearswutIdo]

Only GitP can take an E6 thread and start talking about using epic level feats.

[GrayDeath]

Nah other Forums can do that to.

But we do it on Page 1 ! ^^


On the OP: I would likely put the Initiator Classes Druid and Mystic Ranger on the absolute Top.
Followed by Clerics and their Variants, Warlocks/DFA and Meldshapers.
Then the InYour Face Classes like Barbarians and Wizards (funnily at arund the same overall effectiveness/Power).

However others are correct: The problem at these Levels is too much Dice Luck dependancy, so for my above ranking I am assuming use of an alternate Dice system (Say 3d6) to truly "fit" the bill.

[ATHATH]

Let's see:



Not sure, if "had access to any 3rd-level arcane spell capable of solving a problem" means Cleric-like access, but this is a power upgrade compared to wizards. "Collegiate Wizard, he started the game with 14 spells, and gained 7 each time he leveled up" seems possibly redundant, but is a power upgrade compared to wizards. "second epic feat"/"Most of the rest of his epic feats": How can you get epic feats at level 6? And several of them? Assuming that this is rules legal, once more a power upgrade compared to wizards. "Eternal Wand of Shrink Item" is also a gold saver, which is a power upgrade to people not buying this stuff. "We waited until nightfall and spent the entire encounter tossing these onto the army from about 250 feet in the air.": So you abused effectively a number of rules to collect enough items, which in effect even fighter with access to flight would allow to win. I'm reasonable sure, that people playing E6 don't include these options.

Only GitP can take an E6 thread and start talking about using epic level feats.
I think by "epic feat", he meant "capstone feat", which is a special E6 thing that doesn't have anything to do with "normal" epic feats. Capstone feats are described here (and in other places), under "Extra Feats": http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?206323-E6-The-Game-Inside-D-amp-D

[Doctor Awkward]

Let's see:



Not sure, if "had access to any 3rd-level arcane spell capable of solving a problem" means Cleric-like access, but this is a power upgrade compared to wizards. "Collegiate Wizard, he started the game with 14 spells, and gained 7 each time he leveled up" seems possibly redundant, but is a power upgrade compared to wizards. "second epic feat"/"Most of the rest of his epic feats": How can you get epic feats at level 6? And several of them? Assuming that this is rules legal, once more a power upgrade compared to wizards. "Eternal Wand of Shrink Item" is also a gold saver, which is a power upgrade to people not buying this stuff. "We waited until nightfall and spent the entire encounter tossing these onto the army from about 250 feet in the air.": So you abused effectively a number of rules to collect enough items, which in effect even fighter with access to flight would allow to win. I'm reasonable sure, that people playing E6 don't include these options.

Literally more than cleric-like access.

A Mage of the Arcane Order can leave spell slots unprepared at the beginning of the day and spontaneously fill that slot as a full-round action with any spell that appears on the sorcerer/wizard list. Which they can immediately cast on their next turn.
A Belt of Battle makes this happen on the same turn.

And by "epic" feat I mean as in E6 game (which is short for "Epic 6"). Once you hit level 6 you character stops leveling, and every 5,000 XP afterwards you get another feat for which you qualify. Since you are at the max level, these are referred to as your "epic" feats. One of the options for a spellcaster of 6th-level is to learn a 4th-level spell that you can cast once per day. Essentially it becomes an "epic" spell.

And if by "abused" you mean "read the spell description and cast them according to the rules written", then yes.

The point of the story was there is no level in D&D 3e where magic does not result in a win.

[Eldariel]

I agree with the above post. Initiators are all about consistency. A Crusader 1 is the tankiest level 1 character you can make, and he still hits as hard as a fighter. I'd place the three initiator classes on the top spot along with Druid, simply because Druid is a powerhouse at any level. Below them would be the effective high-HD classes like Barbarian, Paladin and Fighter, simply because they are not outclassed at all by level 6, along with Cleric. Third spot would go to Rangers and Rogues and possibly Bards, because flat bonuses and extra dice at these low levels do make a difference. From then on, you can have d4 casters and the monk by 4th place because they're mostly a liability at this point in the game, only strating to pick up by level 5.

It's ironically an inversion of some laws of Tier lists, because spellcasting alone won't carry your ass when the max level is 6.

This is silly. D4 casters aren't tanky, yes, but no other level 1 character has the raw encounter ending power of AOE save-or-loses like Color Spray or Sleep. You can have up to 5 slots (1 base, +2 Int, +3 - 1 Focused Specialist) though 3-4 is more likely and each of those can take out 2-3 enemies or enemies out of your league (e.g. Ogre is likely to get OHKOd by either - try to have your Fighter fight one and they just get splattered). And then there are options like Abrupt Jaunt. Casters are like bazookas on low levels: by far the strongest offense the game contains and a lot of utility (Prestidigitation alone can do almost anything noncombat, let alone other cantrips) but squishy and with few defensive options (though anyone getting attacked is liable to get OHKOd by a strong melee type like Orc Warrior). By far the best class(es) at punching above their weight class and fighting higher CR enemies.

[death390]

as others have said, the tier list as we know it is solving problems not a best/worst class thing. a fighter can litterally one shot some enemies by using certain builds (ubercharger).

what your looking for is a best/worst classes guide.

if one were to make such a guide for E6 then certain thins would need to be noted as important.
feat access is worth LESS overall due to the access post 6.
BAB is ONLY worth more on classes that get 6+/1+ due to the extra attack. 3/4 and 1/2 BAB should be treated the same.
Spellcasters/psions have MORE problems due to less staying power in E6.
Initiators, meldshapers, warlocks, DFA's, binder, soul knives, and to a certain extent martials have a LOT of staying power due to the at will aspect of their abilities. (this does not make them better than x, just more staying power)
spontaneous casters are somewhat better than normal due to the limits on prepared casters, and more access to feats adding to spell list.
truenamer: assuming being read in such a way that actually is allowed to use their abilities are ok at lower levels (still technically doesn't work by raw)


Shape soulmeld might be the most powerful feat in the game @lvl 20 but damn if it isn't more so @ lvl 6.
metamagic is damn near useless without reducers @lvl20, even more-so @ lvl 6 since max lvl is 3.
Prestige classes are nearly impossible to enter now EXCEPT for 1 level, the exception to this rule are the spellcasting ones that can be cheesed.

[EldritchWeaver]

And if by "abused" you mean "read the spell description and cast them according to the rules written", then yes.

The point of the story was there is no level in D&D 3e where magic does not result in a win.

You still need a certain combination out of hundreds to receive that kind of flexibility. There is no meaningful difference to a wizard, who simply casts like a sorcerer and has "spell known = all". It's breaking the confines of the wizard class and how the class balance is supposed to work. If you have to play a normal wizard, I'm sure your ability to influence the game would drastically shrink.

[Thunder999]

You still need a certain combination out of hundreds to receive that kind of flexibility. There is no meaningful difference to a wizard, who simply casts like a sorcerer and has "spell known = all". It's breaking the confines of the wizard class and how the class balance is supposed to work. If you have to play a normal wizard, I'm sure your ability to influence the game would drastically shrink.

Sure not everyone is going mage of the arcane order (though it should be fairly common, there's not much reason to take 6 levels of wizard over a PrC and it's got one of the best 1st level benefit), but you can certainly get a fair amount of versatility with spontaneous divination, alacritous cogitation and uncanny forethought.

Even without spontaneous access you still have spells, at low levels sleep and colour spray are always potent, and in general there's plenty of good 3rd and under spells (and 4th level 'epic' options like polymorph)

[RoboEmperor]

With 2 flaws Clerics can get CL20 at-will animate objects at level 3 and the resulting Gargantuan Animated Object is stronger than everything in E6.
DMM:Persistent Spell Clerics can grab all the damage spells like Ice Axe, Ring of Blades, Blade of Knives and Mass Lesser Vigor and just kill anything and everything 24/7 without ever needing to rest.

I'm sure wizards and sorcerers can pull something similar so tier lists stays the same for E6.

[JMS]

With 2 flaws Clerics can get CL20 at-will animate objects at level 3
Out of sheer curiosity, how do you do this? Just expanding my (weak) Op-fu

[RoboEmperor]

Out of sheer curiosity, how do you do this? Just expanding my (weak) Op-fu

Race:Changeling
Domain:Transformation, Planning
Feats:
1 Otherworldly
F Persistent Spell
F Divine Metamagic:Persistent Spell
3 Assume Supernatural Ability:Animate Objects

At level 3 DMM:Persist Alter Self and turn yourself into a Ravid 24/7 and use Assume Supernatural Ability to use the Ravid's at-will Animate Objects (Su) aura 24/7

[Kayblis]

This is silly. D4 casters aren't tanky, yes, but no other level 1 character has the raw encounter ending power of ...

Yeah, if you only prepare SoLs as your spell selection, you can say you're a very efficient barbarian. You still go into negatives when hit with a single stray arrow, though. Or get stabbed by a goblin. Or get grabbed by anything. Without a healer, that's your contribution for the day and there's nothing you can do about it. You have a worse (insert statistic here) than anyone in the game except Will, and if you prepare defensive spells you won't have your beloved SoLs because spells are a very finite resource. Anything above your CR is most likely immune to low level SoLs simply by having more HD than you can affect, and your save DCs at low levels are not good. Sure, a Glitterdust spell might render some enemies blind,but the ones that resist don't have any reason not to charge you - and 3 turns might not be enough time to end the encounter anyways. A Wizard is very powerful with its all-or-nothing spells, but relying only on those and saying "anyone can be OHKO'd by something" is missing the point entirely. A Wizard can easily be downed by mooks with a crossbow.

[Troacctid]

Also, a Warblade absolutely has the encounter-ending power of Color Spray, since hitting two enemies for 16 damage each tends to be pretty decisive, and they can do it all day long instead of running out of slots, and they have a d12 hit die instead of a d4.

[Zanos]

I'd be tempted to place sorcerer above wizard honestly. Assuming you're playing e6 in an environment where scrolls aren't readily available for anyone and everyone to pick up, meaning if you want new spells, you'd have to get the e6 feat which gives you 3 spell levels worth of spells, either in your spell book or as spells known, after a few e6 feats, the sorcerer and wizard come up roughly even on spells known/spells/day, HOWEVER, the sorcerer can cast all his spells spontaneously. The sorcerer could eventually learn every spell up to 3rd level and cast it spontaneously, though that would involve going quite deep into e6 :smalltongue:
That also implies that no other wizards interested in sharing spells exist.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, if you only prepare SoLs as your spell selection, you can say you're a very efficient barbarian. You still go into negatives when hit with a single stray arrow, though. Or get stabbed by a goblin. Or get grabbed by anything. Without a healer, that's your contribution for the day and there's nothing you can do about it. You have a worse (insert statistic here) than anyone in the game except Will, and if you prepare defensive spells you won't have your beloved SoLs because spells are a very finite resource. Anything above your CR is most likely immune to low level SoLs simply by having more HD than you can affect, and your save DCs at low levels are not good. Sure, a Glitterdust spell might render some enemies blind,but the ones that resist don't have any reason not to charge you - and 3 turns might not be enough time to end the encounter anyways. A Wizard is very powerful with its all-or-nothing spells, but relying only on those and saying "anyone can be OHKO'd by something" is missing the point entirely. A Wizard can easily be downed by mooks with a crossbow.


Also, a Warblade absolutely has the encounter-ending power of Color Spray, since hitting two enemies for 16 damage each tends to be pretty decisive, and they can do it all day long instead of running out of slots, and they have a d12 hit die instead of a d4.

That's fair, Warblades can be pretty badass. Though I posit the Wizard's rate of success is substantially higher and the daily limitation isn't that big of a deal: DC can go up to 16 or even 17 if you're building for Shadowcraft Mage or something and thus have Spell Focus: Illusion and many even CR 3-4 enemies have +0-+1 range Will-saves for a 75% failure rate, while Warblades are probably looking at +5-+7 to hit or something vs. AC 15. So like 70%-80% success rate vs. 50%-60%, which adds up on multiple hits and is polarized by the extremely swingy nature of level 1 combat; disabling enemy ASAP is paramount since anyone can die in a single hit. It also ignores HP, which is pretty important vs. something like an Ogre. Also, spells like Color Spray or Sleep don't care about concealment or even detection; poor lightning, night, whatever, you've got full success chance while Warblades are looking at at worst 50% miss chance. It's also easier to guess the right square with AOE if you're forced into a situation where you don't know the enemy location precisely and need to incapacitate them. Same with Cover; applies to melee, not so much to spells.

And you can look at even 3-4 encounters if you make do with one spell per encounter (of course, vs. minor encounters you won't even need spells or at worst, you can burn a Daze - Light Crossbow or Longbow or whatever is still a very real contribution on this level if you have decent Dex). Again, make me fight some bigger giants or monstrous humanoids or whatever and I'll take a Wizard over a melee type any day since targeting their Will is much more likely to be a winning strategy than targeting their AC followed by HP.

[Blue Jay]

One of the options for a spellcaster of 6th-level is to learn a 4th-level spell that you can cast once per day. Essentially it becomes an "epic" spell.

That's not one of the "official" capstone options for E6. They offer "restoration 1/day" and "stone to flesh 1/day," but not "(choose a 4th-level spell) 1/day."

[Pleh]

Race:Changeling
Domain:Transformation, Planning
Feats:
1 Otherworldly
F Persistent Spell
F Divine Metamagic:Persistent Spell
3 Assume Supernatural Ability:Animate Objects

At level 3 DMM:Persist Alter Self and turn yourself into a Ravid 24/7 and use Assume Supernatural Ability to use the Ravid's at-will Animate Objects (Su) aura 24/7

I don't think a single slice of Cheese should define Tiers.

Full Spellcasters are typically named T1 because of their wide variety of methods for bending the game over their knees.

When you have a scenario where MOST of your options are mediocre and a few that break the meter, then you get into Truenamer type rankings.

It's not like because this is possible that every Cleric in the game is suddenly going to be an Ebberon Cleric that grew up in one of three particular regions of Faerun just so they can dominate all life with their gargantuan animated objects.

Tiers should be ranked based on how frequently they break game balance, not based on their biggest single spike in power.

In E6, clerics just aren't pulling this level of cheese with every character option they turn to.

I mean, for goodness' sake, what if the DM disallows EITHER: Ebberon specific material, Faerun specific material, OR just Flaws in general?

Back to square 1, old chum.

[RoboEmperor]

I don't think a single slice of Cheese should define Tiers.

Full Spellcasters are typically named T1 because of their wide variety of methods for bending the game over their knees.

When you have a scenario where MOST of your options are mediocre and a few that break the meter, then you get into Truenamer type rankings.

It's not like because this is possible that every Cleric in the game is suddenly going to be an Ebberon Cleric that grew up in one of three particular regions of Faerun just so they can dominate all life with their gargantuan animated objects.

Tiers should be ranked based on how frequently they break game balance, not based on their biggest single spike in power.

In E6, clerics just aren't pulling this level of cheese with every character option they turn to.

I mean, for goodness' sake, what if the DM disallows EITHER: Ebberon specific material, Faerun specific material, OR just Flaws in general?

Back to square 1, old chum.

That's like saying "what if the DM only allows core?"
Eberron says everything in d&d has a place in eberron, and Champions of Valor says celestial attended birth is easily adapted to any setting.
And this is just one example I'm familiar with. My point is tier1s have options to frontload their builds since levels 7+ doesn't exist while mundanes have no options.

A variant
Race:Illumian
Class:Cleric1/Wizard2
Domain:Planning, Undeath
Feats:
1 Otherworldly
D Extend Spell
F Precocious Apprentice
F Persistent Spell
3 Assume Supernatural Ability

3rd level Gargantuan Animated Object without cross-setting material.

Again, this is not the only shenanigan tier 1s can pull, it's just the one that I'm most familiar with.

Artificers using Divine Crusader's spell list and caster level boosters like the Adept Spirit spell can get access to Wish or Gate at level 6 or lower and Simulacrum at level 5 or lower. Or Lesser Planar Binding at level 3 which results in a Mirror Mephit making a Simulacrum of a 16hd creature. Planetars have 9th level casting which means Miracle which means Miracle Replicating Simulacra which means Simulacra of 34hd creatures. Ravid simulacra results in a Gargantuan Animated Object. All this at level 3. And this is with 0 feat investment of any kind. Just abuse of that one PrC's spell list.

[Blue Jay]

That's like saying "what if the DM only allows core?"
Eberron says everything in d&d has a place in eberron, and Champions of Valor says celestial attended birth is easily adapted to any setting.
And this is just one example I'm familiar with. My point is tier1s have options to frontload their builds since levels 7+ doesn't exist while mundanes have no options.

A variant
Race:Illumian
Class:Cleric1/Wizard2
Domain:Planning, Undeath
Feats:
1 Otherworldly
D Extend Spell
F Precocious Apprentice
F Persistent Spell
3 Assume Supernatural Ability

3rd level Gargantuan Animated Object without cross-setting material.

You are breaking some rules though: Otherworldly is a regional feat from Faerun. Neither changelings nor illumians qualify: it's only available to some of the Faerunian races that have some type of innate connection to the Outer Planes

[emeraldstreak]

You are breaking some rules though: Otherworldly is a regional feat from Faerun. Neither changelings nor illumians qualify: it's only available to some of the Faerunian races that have some type of innate connection to the Outer Planes

Breaking a lot of rules, although I agree with the general sentiment that casters have impressive gimmicks to pull off even at low levels.

[Cosi]

I just don't understand why we're basing the evaluation off obvious cheese. We don't base our evaluations of obvious cheese anywhere else. Casters aren't bad at low levels by any means, but it is genuinely true that the gap is smaller. A Warblade is able to contribute as a fully equal member of a 1st level party in a way that he is not in a 10th level party. Most classes are able to contribute to a party at 1st level, because the game is pretty balance at low levels -- that's the entire reason E6 exists.

[JMS]

Race:Changeling
Domain:Transformation, Planning
Feats:
1 Otherworldly
F Persistent Spell
F Divine Metamagic:Persistent Spell
3 Assume Supernatural Ability:Animate Objects

At level 3 DMM:Persist Alter Self and turn yourself into a Ravid 24/7 and use Assume Supernatural Ability to use the Ravid's at-will Animate Objects (Su) aura 24/7
Cool trick! Seems to be one thrown into tier ones can do what!

Edit: I like my unbroken Tier 3s, not this confusing, demanding full caster crap.

[Blue Jay]

Cool trick! Seems to be one thrown into tier ones can do what!

Edit: I like my unbroken Tier 3s, not this confusing, demanding full caster crap.

It is a neat trick, but it's also a bit of a mess, too. A ravid can't control its animate objects aura, and can't suppress it either, so if you're going around 24/7 as a ravid, you're going to annoy the crap out of a lot of people. It says a random object near you animates every 6 seconds. You don't get to choose what object it targets, so it might animate a random tree or rock or door, but it might also randomly animate your companion's morningstar or chainmail bikini.

But, I agree with Cosi that it's pointless to base the discussion on things that no halfway sane and competent DM is going to allow, and it's pointless to base a tiering system on stuff that clearly violates the spirit of E6. And E6 is a game variant that's all about the "spirit of the game": it's supposed to be easy to run, simple to play, low magic, focused on roleplay rather than "balance of power" considerations... I honestly can't help but think that wanting a system of class tiers for E6 is really just missing the entire point of E6.

[RoboEmperor]

You are breaking some rules though: Otherworldly is a regional feat from Faerun. Neither changelings nor illumians qualify: it's only available to some of the Faerunian races that have some type of innate connection to the Outer Planes

Celestial Attended Birth. Look it up. It's in Champions of Valor.


It is a neat trick, but it's also a bit of a mess, too. A ravid can't control its animate objects aura, and can't suppress it either, so if you're going around 24/7 as a ravid, you're going to annoy the crap out of a lot of people. It says a random object near you animates every 6 seconds. You don't get to choose what object it targets, so it might animate a random tree or rock or door, but it might also randomly animate your companion's morningstar or chainmail bikini.

It needs line of effect, meaning you can block it by surrounding yourself in a wall with holes less than 1ftx1ft. Meaning if you stay inside your gargantuan animated object no other object will be animated.

As a general rule, if there is a problem, a player can overcome it with creativity, ingenuity, or optimization. So trivial setbacks like the ones you mentioned never happen.


I just don't understand why we're basing the evaluation off obvious cheese. We don't base our evaluations of obvious cheese anywhere else. Casters aren't bad at low levels by any means, but it is genuinely true that the gap is smaller. A Warblade is able to contribute as a fully equal member of a 1st level party in a way that he is not in a 10th level party. Most classes are able to contribute to a party at 1st level, because the game is pretty balance at low levels -- that's the entire reason E6 exists.

Tier 1s have the option to cheese. Non tier 1s don't have the option to cheese. Therefore tier 1s are superior to classes that don't have the ability to cheese no matter how hard they tried.

[Cosi]

Tier 1s have the option to cheese. Non tier 1s don't have the option to cheese. Therefore tier 1s are superior to classes that don't have the ability to cheese no matter how hard they tried.

That's not really true.

Dread Necromancers and Sorcerers have access to all the planar binding cheese you care to name, and there's no ranking that puts either class higher than Tier Two.

Bards get whatever alter self shenanigans you might happen to care about, and only a level after the Wizard. They're generally considered the definition of Tier Three.

I don't know the optimal Diplomancer build off hand, but I think it's just a bunch of non-caster classes that give good Diplomacy Bonus/level ratios. Similarly, you can do holy word Staff cheese with a Rogue/Marshal/Incarnate multiclass.

You can make a d2 Crusader with Eberron Adept or a Paladin with a domain-granting PrC. It's not really as impactful as you might think without more ingredients, but infinite damage is something most people consider cheese.

Any arcane casting class in the game can do Improved Familiar (Mirror Mephit) to get infinite simulacra at 14th level.

Certainly, there's more cheese available to Tier One classes than other classes, but that's because they have more options in general.

[Doctor Awkward]

Celestial Attended Birth. Look it up. It's in Champions of Valor.

I'm still confused as to how this works.

Player's Guide to Faerun says that, "Each regional feat specifies one or more character race and region combinations as prerequisites. To select such a feat, your character must meet one such set of prerequisites."

In the case of Otherworldly, the requirements are "deep imaskari (Underdark [Deep Imaskar]), elf (Evermeet, Sildeyuir), or spirit folk (Ashane)."

Thus using only the PGtF, the only characters that can select that feat are those that choose the deep imaskari race from Deep Imaskar, elves from either Evermeet or Sildeyuir, or spirit folk from Ashane.

The regional backgrounds option from Champions of Valor expands on that with additional more specific areas, organizations, or beliefs tied to specific regions. It says, "A character who chooses a regional background uses it in place of a region for determining automatic languages, bonus languages, favored deities, regional feats, and bonus equipment. Effectively, the background replaces the character's region for all of these listings."

Since Celestial-Attended Birth can be applied to any region it will replace the normal regional requirements of Deep imaskar, Evermeet, Sildeyuir, and Ashane. But it doesn't say anything about the obviating the racial requirement.

So even with the additional rules in CoV wouldn't the Otherworldly feat still only be available to deep imaskari, elves, and spirit folk, just from any region rather than the four specificed in PgtF?

[Blue Jay]

Celestial Attended Birth. Look it up. It's in Champions of Valor.

I didn't know about that. That's cool. I still think you're being too flippant about dismissing prereqs. The regional backgrounds do cone with their own restrictions: you have to worship a Good-aligned deity, and presumably you have to be Good-aligned yourself for Celestials to be heralding your birth. So, there will still be some build-massaging to do with your domains and such.

But to me, the more salient point than "is this build legal" is the general principle that exploit-fishing is contrary to the stated philosophy and purpose of E6. So, while I've no doubt that players better than I could cleverly game the system to trivialize any restriction I can think up, I don't think it makes sense to factor this into the tiering system for E6.

[RoboEmperor]

snip

We're talking E6 right? And even if we're not, higher tier's cheese hits harder and is available much, much earlier. Most evident by my Artificer example in E6.

Dread Necros have no magic circle or dimensional anchor. Sorcerers do but they get it a level later than wizards, several levels if you want to optimize planar binding with Moment of Prescience or Surge of Fortune.

No matter how much you deny it timing matters. Pulling the same mirror mephit shenanigan at level 3 is much, much stronger than pulling it at level 14. That is 11 levels of difference and you claim they are of same strength?

Also Bards don't have the spell slots to keep extended alter self up 24/7 until much, much too late. Sorcerers can, Clerics have DMM, and Wizards can too in the right build.

You make a fair point with diplomancers but wizards can be just as good if not better diplomancers than the other tiers on top of their shenanigans so...

If you're saying an ubercharger and a mailman is equal because they both do ridiculous damage despite the fact that the mailman also has a **** ton of utility then this is where we agree to disagree. How early and how many shenanigans you can pull is very important and a class that can only pull one shenanigan significantly later than tier 1s when they optimize an entire build for it does not make them equal.


snip

Anyone with CAB can take any of the regional feats listed in CAB. Pretty straight forward. The prerequisites of regional feats are both race and region. If you say the regional backgrounds replace only the region and not the race requirement I'll have to ask you for a quote because to me it's clear you replace the entire "prerequisite" section of the feat with the race and region restriction of the regional background.


I didn't know about that. That's cool. I still think you're being too flippant about dismissing prereqs. The regional backgrounds do cone with their own restrictions: you have to worship a Good-aligned deity, and presumably you have to be Good-aligned yourself for Celestials to be heralding your birth. So, there will still be some build-massaging to do with your domains and such.

But to me, the more salient point than "is this build legal" is the general principle that exploit-fishing is contrary to the stated philosophy and purpose of E6. So, while I've no doubt that players better than I could cleverly game the system to trivialize any restriction I can think up, I don't think it makes sense to factor this into the tiering system for E6.

There are no restrictions about CAB. You don't have to worship a good-aligned deity. You are born special and if you stray from the path of good you don't lose your regional feat.

Your other comment is the same as saying "If wizards only cast magic missile all day they are equal to fighters so tier system is pointless." Even outside E6 wizards who cast only combat spells and never out of combat spells are pretty much the same strength as fighters so saying the two are the same if you restrict wizards to combat only spells and therefore equal tier is ludicrous.

[Doctor Awkward]

Anyone with CAB can take any of the regional feats listed in CAB. Pretty straight forward. The prerequisites of regional feats are both race and region. If you say the regional backgrounds replace only the region and not the race requirement I'll have to ask you for a quote because to me it's clear you replace the entire "prerequisite" section of the feat with the race and region restriction of the regional background.

Player's Guide to Faerun, pg. 32, Feats:

Each regional feat specifices one or more character race and region combinations as prerequisites. To select such a feat, your character must meet one such set of prerequisites. For example, to select a feat whose regional prerequisite is Dwarf (Spine of the World), your character must be a dwarf whose home region is the Spine of the World.

Champions of Valor, pg. 21, Regional Backgrounds:

Regions in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting are typically associated with large geographic areas or at least some locale as large as a city. This book expands that concept by presenting "regional backgrounds" that function in conjuction with a region... Some of these backgrounds are specific to one region, while others have multiple sites separated by miles and country borders...
...A character who chooses a regional background uses it in place of a region for determining his automatic languages, bonus languages, favored deities, regional feats, and bonus equipment. Effectively, the background replaces the character's region for all of these listings.

Replaces the region. Does not remove or even address the racial portion of the prerequisites for the feats.
Seems pretty straightforward to me.

[RoboEmperor]

Here's a no shenanigan E6 build that results in the gargantuan animated object

Race:Neraphim
Class:Sorcerer
1 Extend Spell
3 Assume Supernatural Ability

At 4th level he'll be able to operate his GAO for 160minutes a day.
At 6th level he'll be able to operate his GAO for 14 hours a day.

Alternatively he could buy/craft a Phylactery of Change for indefinite GAO uptime.

Alternatively
Race:Any
Class:Artificer
Feats:Any
At 5th level the Artificer will craft a Scroll of Lesser Holy Transformation to turn himself into an outsider and a Phylactery of Change to turn himsefl into a Ravid indefinitely.

Otherworldly just lets you get the GAO at 3 instead of 4-6. A GAO at 6 is still way too strong for E6. Nothing can get past its hardness and nothing can beat its grapple score. Throw in Girallon's Blessing and it will mow everything down.

There's also the Ghost Template from Ghostwalk. LA:+0 and turns you into an outsider so get rid of Otherworldly and just grab that template.


Player's Guide to Faerun, pg. 32, Feats:


Champions of Valor, pg. 21, Regional Backgrounds:


Replaces the region. Does not remove or even address the racial portion of the prerequisites for the feats.
Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Interesting. You might be right here. Not that I really care since I moved away from Otherworldly because I don't like using cross-setting material on my characters.

[Blue Jay]

Your other comment is the same as saying "If wizards only cast magic missile all day they are equal to fighters so tier system is pointless." Even outside E6 wizards who cast only combat spells and never out of combat spells are pretty much the same strength as fighters so saying the two are the same if you restrict wizards to combat only spells and therefore equal tier is ludicrous.

Hmmm... I guess I could have said it more clearly than that. Let me try again.

E6 is meant to be a low-magic game variant. All the exploits you and others have mentioned so far involve finding ways to get access to high-level magic in E6. You're not supposed to have access to high-level magic in E6, so any exploits that involve accessing high-level magic should be ignored for tiering purposes.

[Pleh]

That's like saying "what if the DM only allows core?"


This is a valid criticism, though.

In the Standard Tiering, Core Only is accounted for. It doesn't change the rankings by much (the gap between martials and spellcasters gete bigger with splats, I recall, but their relative positioning remains unchanged).

The problem is that in E6, your kind of TO cheese is really much more fragile to source selection than it is in Standard Tiering.

I mean, if we have to include cheese from all splats, then Pun Pun comes online with Serpent Kingdoms.

[RoboEmperor]

Hmmm... I guess I could have said it more clearly than that. Let me try again.

E6 is meant to be a low-magic game variant. All the exploits you and others have mentioned so far involve finding ways to get access to high-level magic in E6. You're not supposed to have access to high-level magic in E6, so any exploits that involve accessing high-level magic should be ignored for tiering purposes.

Fair enough. If 4th level and higher spells don't exist even in the form of SLAs then all I know of is Alter Self->Dwarven Ancestor and DMM:Persistent Spell. Whether how much these two influence tiers I guess it's up to you.


This is a valid criticism, though.

In the Standard Tiering, Core Only is accounted for. It doesn't change the rankings by much (the gap between martials and spellcasters gete bigger with splats, I recall, but their relative positioning remains unchanged).

The problem is that in E6, your kind of TO cheese is really much more fragile to source selection than it is in Standard Tiering.

I mean, if we have to include cheese from all splats, then Pun Pun comes online with Serpent Kingdoms.

It is fragile because most core shenanigans are 4th level and higher. But yeah, all out of combat shenanigans come online 4th level or higher, E6 is 3rd level or lower, so spellcasters are restricted to combat spells mostly so they perform similarly to mundanes.

[Pleh]

A GAO at 6 is still way too strong for E6. Nothing can get past its hardness and nothing can beat its grapple score.

I'm actually beginning to really question this assertion.

It tremendously much depends on what object gets animated. The entry for Animated Objects says that an animated object has the same hardness it had before it was animated. For wooden objects, that's Hardness 5, which LOTS of E6 monsters can get past. Iron Objects are Hardness 10, which beats probably MOST E6 monsters (but probably not the CR 7 to 12 monsters expected for heroes that reach 6th level and start getting bonus "epic" feats). Access to more exotic substances really shouldn't necessarily be assumed. I mean, for common weapons and armor, mithral or adamantine is common enough. But who has enough of that precious substance to make a Gargantuan Tank? It really stretches disbelief rather greatly (like having a Faerunian Celestial visiting a birth in Ebberon).

Remember that Tiers usually don't take much account for WBL, because when everyone optimizes their WBL, everyone ends up T1 game breakers using Candles of Invocation to Wish for whatever they want.

The most commonly accessible Gargantuan Objects that I would expect in an E6 game is maybe a Wagon or a Carriage. They're typically made of Wood (I could see an argument for an Iron wagon or carriage). I would expect any society with Mithral or Adamatine Wagons or Carriages to be exceptionally wealthy and affluent. It's just too special and exceptional to expect to be available to players by default.

You say "nothing in the game can stand up against the GAO," but the GAO is a CR 7 monster and E6 can legally go as high as 10 to 12. It's perfectly legal that your GAO might have to fight as many as 3 or 4 of its identical counterparts (it would be very cool to see an animated wagon drawn and quartered by four other animated wagons).

Not to mention what you do against a Swarm of anything. Let's say Bats because they can Fly. Your 1x1ft window will let the bats attack you directly and they deal damage automatically (I hope you didn't Dump your Con score thinking you wouldn't ever need your own HP). Swarms can't be grappled and they are immune to weapon damage, so your GAO is almost useless except maybe outrunning the swarm (which might be tricky since it's so big that it might have trouble getting out of a tight squeeze).

Suppose you were to encounter a CR 7 Black Pudding. That's 3d6 Acid damage every time you come into contact with the Black Pudding (hardness 10 from an Iron Carriage will mitigate this on average, but your GAO's +3 Reflex against the DC 21 Reflex save means the Acid Damage will trigger nearly every time either creature touches one another).

Or, how about the good ol' Allip, who'll incorporeal fly through your GAO and start Wisdom Draining (looks like you get no saves)? CR 3 monster for your Level 3 Cleric. Yes, clerics can turn undead, but considering that you're optimized to be an Outsider so you can Alter Self into a Ravid, you aren't going to also be optimized for turning undead. Against an Allip with 4HD and 2 Turn Resistance, you'll have to roll about 13 or better (assuming +3 Cha bonus, which is generous considering you weren't choosing races for their ability mods) on your Turning check, so more than half your turn attempts will fizzle. If you were somehow able to squeeze some cha boosts into your Race mods or Magic Items (though it looks like most of it has been going into tricking out your fancy GAO), you're probably still fizzling on about half your turn checks, while the Allip is Wisdom draining you on every successful Touch Attack (which has +3 to hit and you probably didn't put much into your Dex score since your plan is to hide inside the GAO).

The good news is that once any of your turn attempts trigger, the 2d6 + level + Cha mod is definitively more than enough to turn the allip so any good turning check automatically wins. The bad news is that the exterior of the animated Wagon or Carriage isn't likely larger than 5ft, so the Allip could probably hover outside the carriage where it has total cover from you and reach through to touch you when it attacks, so that you never have line of effect to make your Turn attempts (unless you ready an action to Turn it as it reaches through the GAO's exterior).

"Incorporeal creatures are only allowed to move through objects and an animated object is a creature." Okay, setting aside the double mindedness that it's fine to be an Ebberon creature visited at birth by a Faerun Celestial just so you can have Alter Self as an Outsider, but heaven forbid an incorporeal creature can move through a carriage, but not if it's animated, let's switch to a Brain in a Jar from Libris Mortis and play the same game again.

The Jar is 1ft in space, which fits neatly through your 1ft viewing window that you use to direct your GAO. The Brain in a Jar stays hidden (with total cover from you and your GAO has Wisdom score of 1 so it doesn't notice jack). Then it uses the Dominate Person minion it uses for its bodyguard and has the humanoid charge at your GAO. What does the cleric and the GAO do when it sees a lone Orc charging at it with a two handed weapon? AoO and grab it before it gets close to the GAO. Now the GAO has expended its AoO and is already busy grappling, so the Brain in a Jar can simply fly out of hiding and move through the window, where the GAO can't do anything about it. From here, it begins Mind Thrusting the Cleric for 2d10 damage (against your 3d8 HP) on a DC 14 Will Save (since you picked race to optimize being an outsider and not your Wisdom score, you probably have a Will bonus of 3 Base + 4 Wis = 7). Or it might begin Suggesting that you use that GAO to crush your Allies at a DC 16 Will Save, so you have a slightly better than 50% chance of nuking party members. Smash the Jar with a Hammer? Good idea, since it's only got 3d12 HD and 13 AC, but you probably didn't put a lot into your Strength Score since the plan was to sit inside the GAO at all times and your WBL was also likely dumped into the GAO. So you're probably swinging with a simple Morningstar for 1d8-1 damage. It's going to get to sit there and wail on your brainpan for a bit longer than you'd probably prefer at that point. Ah, but the Brain in Jar is undead! Let's Turn it. Another good plan, but the monster has 3 HD and 4 Turn resistance, meaning your Turn check will fail slightly more often than against the Allip. Good news is that it can't just hover outside the GAO and reach through the walls.

Or, heck, how about a bog standard Juvenile Arrowhawk? It has perfect fly 60ft, so the Animated Carriage will not outrun it (50ft speed if wheeled), Arrowhawk can fire a 2d6 Electricity Ray from 50ft (well outside the GAO's reach), which won't overcome an Iron Carriage's Hardness on average (it WILL on a Wooden Carriage), but when they can keep out of range and continue firing endlessly, they'll eventually tear it apart after they roll high enough times. It's CR 3, so it can be a Boss encounter at level 1, a standard quarter of your adventuring day at level 3 (when your Assume Supernatural Ability) comes online, and you could be facing an Adult, Elder, or Clutch of Juveniles by the time you're level 6.

But you were wanting to go beyond Core Only, so let's pick another monster not in the SRD.

Ibrandlin is from Monsters of Faerun, has CR 5 (so a fair Boss encounter for your level 3 Assume Supernatural Ability character) and a better Grapple Modifier than your GAO (+34). He attacks with +18 to Bite (which will hit the GAO's AC except on a nat 1) and deal 4d6+12 damage (which will beat even an Adamantine GAO's Hardness of 20 more than 95% of the time), plus he's got a 30ft Cone of Fire breath weapon for your Allies (who will have to make a DC 21 Reflex save at level 3 to half the 2d6 damage).

---

My point being that the GAO is nowhere near as powerful as you claim, because not every creature is vulnerable to Grappling or mundane weapon damage and in E6, monsters with alternative combat tactics (swarms, oozes, flying creatures, undead antics) are far more dangerous than in standard 3.5 gameplay (because there are fewer answers to those tactics).

Or again, were you assuming the DM will give you access to a custom Adamantine Iron Man Suit? While permissible by the rules, that's exactly part of why WBL usually isn't considered in Tier listings as it is
1) Far too reliant on DM permissions
2) Leads to every class using the same One Size Breaks the Game solutions (which defeats the purpose of comparing class abilities).

Tiers are meant to describe what is likely to happen to any given game making statistically common choices (which is part of why Truenamer gets a really weird Tier ranking most of the time; it's T6 in most of its outcomes and T2-T1 in a few select outcomes).

That's one HECK of a permissive DM to now only allow the cheesy Build, but to also give you custom options for your WBL.

[RoboEmperor]

snip

Again you make way too many assumptions. Way too many.

1. You build a statue instead of using a carriage. Stone Shape is a free Gargantuan Statue.
2. Augment Object is a 3rd level spell that doubles an object's hardness.
3. Stone has Hardness 8. Doubled that is 16. And this is free. And hardness blocks all damage including energy.
4. A Gargantuan Adamantine Glaive costs 8 x 2 (large) x 1.5 (huge) x 1.5 (gargantuan) + 3,000gp (adamantine) = 3036gp. For a mere 3,036gp I got a 40 hardness gargantuan animated object. And yes the +3,000gp is added at the end and never multiplied. MiC gave a direct example of a large adamantine weapon.
5. This is cleric we're talking about. He's got ghost touch armor/weapon spell to make the object un-passable via incorporeality.
6. Overrun destroys swarms
7. Why would there be a 1ft viewing window? A cleric in this build will want 0 exposure to the outside world so there will be a 0ft viewing window.
8. Make Whole is a full heal/resurrection for the GAO.
9. Cast Magic Weapon on the GAO. It now strikes as a magic weapon. Doesn't matter if it's a statue or a weapon, everything is an improvised weapon. While its fists won't get the +1 attack/damage, it will still strike as a magic weapon because the entire thing is a magic weapon.

With enough investment a DM can overcome a GAO obviously, and there are certain challenges the GAO cannot overcome because nothing can do everything, but no, no PC in E6 except the most optimized can come close to the god mode that is the GAO. To take out a GAO you need spells that affect objects, and save-or-suck like grease isn't good enough. You need disintegrate and the like which doesn't exist in E6.

[Pleh]

1. You build a statue instead of using a carriage. Stone Shape is a free Gargantuan Statue.

Stone Shape is also a 3rd level spell (4th for Sor/Wiz, so you just about HAVE to go Divine now), which needs a 6th level spellcaster. Your 3rd level Spellcaster will not have it. All of your shenanigans are now End Game material only. Unless you want to buy spell services from a 6th level NPC, in which case your statue is certainly not free. It may not cost that much in the grand scheme of things, but it again brings up the argument that WBL typically isn't considered in Tiering. You're supposed to get your Tier without relying on money or items.

So we're kind of back to "Spellcasters can be broken at the End Game," which isn't that impressive.

I guess you could sculpt the Statue by hand if you put enough skill points into the relevant Craft skill, but Craft checks still require you to pay up for components and for the DM to decide what a fair Check DC should be. Not to mention that you won't simply have a cavity in the center to hide in. Taking the stone apart is one thing, but gluing it back together is a whole different story.


2. Augment Object is a 3rd level spell that doubles an object's hardness.

Another 3rd Level Spell, same problem as last time. But this time also Porting in 3.0 spells. That's another sticky point that some DMs won't automatically allow. At least it already has a duration that you won't need to Persist.


3. Stone has Hardness 8. Doubled that is 16. And this is free. And hardness blocks all damage including energy.

Again, only free at End Game level. You still have to wait til the end of the campaign to reach this level of power all by yourself.


4. A Gargantuan Adamantine Glaive costs 8 x 2 (large) x 1.5 (huge) x 1.5 (gargantuan) + 3,000gp (adamantine) = 3036gp. For a mere 3,036gp I got a 40 hardness gargantuan animated object. And yes the +3,000gp is added at the end and never multiplied. MiC gave a direct example of a large adamantine weapon.

And WBL expects you to have that much money by 4th level at the soonest. We have a Gargantuan Adamantine Glaive no one can use (or likely even carry) until we get to level 6 and can cast Stone Shape.


5. This is cleric we're talking about. He's got ghost touch armor/weapon spell to make the object un-passable via incorporeality.

You can apply Ghost Touch to Natural Armor? Cause that's the only armor this thing is wearing. The spell targets, "the armor of the creature touched." That would change some things if that were the case.

But then you're also in that place of having to have prepared that particular spell today. If you're going DMM cleric at level 3, let's remember that DMM is power by Turn attempts. You get 3 + Cha turn attempts (and you already spent all your feats, so you don't have Extra Turning). So you've Persisted Alter Self, so adding Ghost Touch Armor and Weapon leave you with a number equal to your Cha mod (which you haven't optimized since you used your race to optimize being a Ravid all day).


6. Overrun destroys swarms

After searching around the Overrun rules, I presume you mean that the Animated Object's Trample (Ex) ability can damage swarms, specifically because normal Trample rules say you can make a Hoof attack as part of an Overrun on a mounted overrun, while the Animated Object says large Animated Objects deal the damage to any creature that doesn't make an AoO and it's a Reflex to half the damage, implying it's an area attack (which swarms are vulnerable to).

I think at my table, I'd rule that to trample a swarm of bats, you'd have to somehow get them under your feet, when they're trying to swarm around your head.

But the Swarm argument was probably better resolved by the fact that swarms probably don't deal enough damage to overcome the GAO's hardness and you said there's no opening to reach the cleric (below).


7. Why would there be a 1ft viewing window? A cleric in this build will want 0 exposure to the outside world so there will be a 0ft viewing window.

I was probably misunderstanding what you meant when you said:

It needs line of effect, meaning you can block it by surrounding yourself in a wall with holes less than 1ftx1ft. Meaning if you stay inside your gargantuan animated object no other object will be animated.

But having no holes in your statue seems like a big problem. Outsiders still need to breathe. Are you Persisting another spell to take care of that? You're running out of Turn attempts pretty quick. Without those Turn Attempts, Persistent Spell requires a Spell Slot 6 levels higher.

And with no view windows, how are you directing it to attack targets?


8. Make Whole is a full heal/resurrection for the GAO.

Actually gonna need Citation on this as well.

Make Whole specifically targets Objects, and Animated Objects are Constructs, which are Creatures. You'd have to wait for the animation to wear off, which would be at the end of the day when you stopped being a Ravid.

I see nothing in the Make Whole spell, the Animated Object monster description, or the Construct traits that suggests that Make Whole repairs animated objects.

Cannot heal damage on their own, but often can be repaired by exposing them to a certain kind of effect (see the creature’s description for details) or through the use of the Craft Construct feat. A construct with the fast healing special quality still benefits from that quality.
So we need to see if Animated Objects have any special effect when targeted by Make Whole.
... Nope, seems not.

And, in fact, my copy of the Make Whole spell in the PHB says (emphasis mine),


This spell functions like mending, except that make whole completely repairs an object made of any substance, even one with multiple breaks, to be as strong as new. The spell does not restore the magical abilities of a broken magic item made whole, and it cannot mend broken magic rods, staffs, or wands. The spell does not repair items that have been warped, burned, disintegrated, ground to powder, melted, or vaporized, nor does it affect creatures (including constructs).

Not the end of the world for your side of the argument, but repairing damage from the arrowhawks just got trickier.

Please note that even Mending, the 0 level spell, doesn't work on Creatures or Constructs


9. Cast Magic Weapon on the GAO. It now strikes as a magic weapon. Doesn't matter if it's a statue or a weapon, everything is an improvised weapon. While its fists won't get the +1 attack/damage, it will still strike as a magic weapon because the entire thing is a magic weapon.

Huh. Somehow I missed this one. I'm actually having trouble figuring out which point this one was meant to refute.


no PC in E6 except the most optimized can come close to the god mode that is the GAO. To take out a GAO you need spells that affect objects, and save-or-suck like grease isn't good enough. You need disintegrate and the like which doesn't exist in E6.

Mountain Hammer is a 2nd level Maneuver which tells your double hardness spell to go cry in a corner. You need to get in range and survive the counter strike, but it's hardly "the most optimized." It's kind of a bread and butter to anyone who intends to go beatstick.

Rogue 3/Sorcerer 1 (level 4 character, but you're not Stone Shaping a statue til level 6, so it's kinda embarrassing that you'd get ganked by a level 4) can have Golem Strike spell to deal Sneak Attack against Constructs, then Maiming Strike to forego Sneak attack damage for 1 Charisma damage, which nukes the Animated Object.

Again, you can't see outside the statue to begin with and the Animated Object has a 1 in wisdom. They're not going to see the sneaky rogue coming.

[RoboEmperor]

I guess you could sculpt the Statue by hand if you put enough skill points into the relevant Craft skill, but Craft checks still require you to pay up for components and for the DM to decide what a fair Check DC should be. Not to mention that you won't simply have a cavity in the center to hide in. Taking the stone apart is one thing, but gluing it back together is a whole different story.

Right, you need to pay for stone when they're literally everywhere around you, big backpacks and unseen crafters don't exist, and you need a perfect statue instead of a crude shape to animate. And a Gargantuan Glaive costs 36gp. And we always have rope. 1gp for a gargantuan object.


And WBL expects you to have that much money by 4th level at the soonest. We have a Gargantuan Adamantine Glaive no one can use (or likely even carry) until we get to level 6 and can cast Stone Shape.

Why would I need stone shape when i already have a gargantuan object?


You can apply Ghost Touch to Natural Armor? Cause that's the only armor this thing is wearing. The spell targets, "the armor of the creature touched." That would change some things if that were the case.

You apply ghost touch to the entire weapon which is the entire object. There's also a 1st level spell called Ectolplasm.


After searching around the Overrun rules, I presume you mean that the Animated Object's Trample (Ex) ability can damage swarms, specifically because normal Trample rules say you can make a Hoof attack as part of an Overrun on a mounted overrun, while the Animated Object says large Animated Objects deal the damage to any creature that doesn't make an AoO and it's a Reflex to half the damage, implying it's an area attack (which swarms are vulnerable to).

I think at my table, I'd rule that to trample a swarm of bats, you'd have to somehow get them under your feet, when they're trying to swarm around your head.

But the Swarm argument was probably better resolved by the fact that swarms probably don't deal enough damage to overcome the GAO's hardness and you said there's no opening to reach the cleric (below).

I did mean trample. my bad


But having no holes in your statue seems like a big problem. Outsiders still need to breathe. Are you Persisting another spell to take care of that? You're running out of Turn attempts pretty quick. Without those Turn Attempts, Persistent Spell requires a Spell Slot 6 levels higher.

And with no view windows, how are you directing it to attack targets?

You can have windows. Just not 1ft wide. Like 0.1ft, or a screen.


Actually gonna need Citation on this as well.

Make Whole specifically targets Objects, and Animated Objects are Constructs, which are Creatures. You'd have to wait for the animation to wear off, which would be at the end of the day when you stopped being a Ravid.

I see nothing in the Make Whole spell, the Animated Object monster description, or the Construct traits that suggests that Make Whole repairs animated objects.

Or you go into a smaller box, animate it, have it completely close off all 1ftx1ft holes if any, and open up when the GAO de-animates. Again trivial stuff like this does not matter to a spellcaster. And this is only if you want to heal the GAO instead of resurrecting the GAO when it dies.


Huh. Somehow I missed this one. I'm actually having trouble figuring out which point this one was meant to refute.

Striking incorporeality.


Mountain Hammer is a 2nd level Maneuver which tells your double hardness spell to go cry in a corner. You need to get in range and survive the counter strike, but it's hardly "the most optimized." It's kind of a bread and butter to anyone who intends to go beatstick.

Who cares about a 2d6 damage maneuver when you have 148hp and is instantly resurrected the moment it dies with a make whole spell?


Rogue 3/Sorcerer 1 (level 4 character, but you're not Stone Shaping a statue til level 6, so it's kinda embarrassing that you'd get ganked by a level 4) can have Golem Strike spell to deal Sneak Attack against Constructs, then Maiming Strike to forego Sneak attack damage for 1 Charisma damage, which nukes the Animated Object.

Again, you can't see outside the statue to begin with and the Animated Object has a 1 in wisdom. They're not going to see the sneaky rogue coming.

I can simply redirect the animate object effect on the GAO to some other tiny object near my vicinity as a move action and then use my aura to re-animate it. It's a new animated object complete with reset hit points unless the DM house rules. Object hp is not related to AO hp in any way. The only reason I mentioned Make Whole as a heal instead of this thing is because even i think this is BS.

And I always have 20 tiny objects near me so my GAO always have the full 20round duration at the start of combat by using the above trick every round out of combat.

edit: If you're claiming a 3rd level GAO is not OP and balanced I'll love you and play at your table because I conceived this shenanigan not as a TO gamebreaker but as a way to achieve minionmancy before level 9 without relying on corpses. Keep that in mind. If you have this GAO at 3rd level at your table, will it or will it not destroy your game? Because even at 6th level in a non-E6 game it destroyed my game which is why I no longer use the trick.

[Maat Mons]

Okay, wait. I think I've figured out a way to best the construct master.

An artificer can craft a scroll of lesser planar binding, because it's 3rd level on the demonologist spell list. And the construct master is an outsider with 6 or fewer hit dice. So now the artificer owns him.

[RoboEmperor]

Okay, wait. I think I've figured out a way to best the construct master.

An artificer can craft a scroll of lesser planar binding, because it's 3rd level on the demonologist spell list. And the construct master is an outsider with 6 or fewer hit dice. So now the artificer owns him.

I already mentioned that method to bind a Mirror Mephit who will create a Simulacrum of a Planetar who will use its prepared Miracle (either by helping you craft a new scroll or casting it itself) to create a Simulacrum of a 34hd creature.

[Pleh]

Before I start again, my point in all this isn't that your build isn't clever and well researched. Actually, it's mostly bad for tier discussions because it's probably over optimized for the average caster. Arguments for relevancy to Tiers should probably demonstrate the large number of similar, but different caster gimmicks (something other than a GAO tank exploit).

Past that, my critique of the GAO route is to demonstrate that it's only T1 under a very permissive DM (one that isn't trying to challenge you by depleting what few resources you have left after getting everything booted up), and it's T2 probably at most tables (my GAO is a hammer that makes every problem a nail) that would even allow it. But a DM that targets the weak points (using enemies that bypass it's attacks to burn up your few remaining spell slots and turn attempts) can force you to rely on allies, at which point, I've argued you down to T3.


Right, you need to pay for stone when they're literally everywhere around you, big backpacks and unseen crafters don't exist, and you need a perfect statue instead of a crude shape to animate. And a Gargantuan Glaive costs 36gp. And we always have rope. 1gp for a gargantuan object.

You can't just mill any stone from anywhere. Land still belongs to people and they don't necessarily let you start digging Gargantuan holes just anywhere. Getting the stone is still essentially paying for it, whether it's pre harvested, access to it, or doing the legwork on a personal quest to journey far enough to find land no one cares about (which I'd argue that questing for something extra is about the same for Tiering purposes as paying for it with WBL).


Why would I need stone shape when i already have a gargantuan object?

Slow down. Your stone won't be augmented for double hit points until level 6, so your animated object has hardness 8, which many monsters will be able to overcome.


You apply ghost touch to the entire weapon which is the entire object. There's also a 1st level spell called Ectolplasm.

Woah, woah, woah. First off, ghost touch ARMOR is a 2nd level spell, while ghost touch WEAPON is 3rd. Allip is CR 3, when you'll have GT armor spells, but not GT weapon spells. Pretty sure I'd throw a book at you if you want the benefit of GT armor from GT weapon just because, "the whole object is the weapon." No, it isn't. I'd allow GT weapon to make the slam attack work normally, but it won't prevent incorporeal creatures from drifting inside. Slam attacks from large humanoid shapes always mean the hands.

Google Fu says your Ectoplasm spell is called Create Ectoplasm, but that spell says you create 1lb/level that lasts 10min/level. Unless you are using even MORE of your Persist Turn Attempts, you can create 3lbs for 30 minutes per spell slot at 3rd level or 6lbs for an hour per spell slot at 6th. Range is Touch and spell description is that it forms from your hands, eyes, or mouth, so it looks like you're finger painting it on.

Forgive me if that doesn't seem like enough to cover your gargantuan stone statue.


You can have windows. Just not 1ft wide. Like 0.1ft, or a screen.

Then you still have to worry about gaseous attacks and creatures as well as your GAO being submerged.


Or you go into a smaller box, animate it, have it completely close off all 1ftx1ft holes if any, and open up when the GAO de-animates. Again trivial stuff like this does not matter to a spellcaster. And this is only if you want to heal the GAO instead of resurrecting the GAO when it dies.

Not sure I understand the internal structure of this construct. As much as I love and hate it, we might need a scaled map of the proposed interior to progress further with any weaknesses.


Striking incorporeality.

Ah. I guess half success is better than none.

I've run out of time this morning. I'll check in later.

[RoboEmperor]

Past that, by critique of the GAO route is to demonstrate that it's only T1 under a very permissive DM (one that isn't trying to challenge you by depleting what few resources you have left after getting everything booted up), and it's T2 probably at most tables (my GAO is a hammer that makes every problem a nail) that would even allow it. But a DM that targets the weak points (using enemies that bypass it's attacks to burn up your few remaining spell slots and turn attempts) can force you to rely on allies, at which point, I've argued you down to T3.

A gish of a pure or almost pure tier 1 class will always be tier 1 because the gish can just stop gishing and switch to fullcaster albeit without feats.


You can't just mill any stone from anywhere. Land still belongs to people and they don't necessarily let you start digging Gargantuan holes just anywhere. Getting the stone is still essentially paying for it, whether it's pre harvested, access to it, or doing the legwork on a personal quest to journey far enough to find land no one cares about (which I'd argue that questing for something extra is about the same for Tiering purposes as paying for it with WBL).

Why can't I mill any stone from anywhere? My no.1 source is the dungeon wall of a dungeon we cleared. In any case a rope is a 1gp GAO with hardness 0 and I can animate multiples of them since I will be exposed to the outside world since the rope is too thin to provide full cover, or any cover.


Slow down. Your stone won't be augmented for double hit points until level 6, so your animated object has hardness 8, which many monsters will be able to overcome.

The thing has 148 hp with Make Whole resurrecting it. Even with only hardness 8 or even 0 it's gonna take a while to kill it and even longer to kill it several times and in the case of rope you can easily bring in a replacement since each death only costs you 1gp and rope fits in your backpack.


Woah, woah, woah. First off, ghost touch ARMOR is a 2nd level spell, while ghost touch WEAPON is 3rd. Allip is CR 3, when you'll have GT armor spells, but not GT weapon spells. Pretty sure I'd throw a book at you if you want the benefit of GT armor from GT weapon just because, "the whole object is the weapon." No, it isn't. I'd allow GT weapon to make the slam attack work normally, but it won't prevent incorporeal creatures from drifting inside. Slam attacks from large humanoid shapes always mean the hands.

Google Fu says your Ectoplasm spell is called Create Ectoplasm, but that spell says you create 1lb/level that lasts 10min/level. Unless you are using even MORE of your Persist Turn Attempts, you can create 3lbs for 30 minutes per spell slot at 3rd level or 6lbs for an hour per spell slot at 6th. Range is Touch and spell description is that it forms from your hands, eyes, or mouth, so it looks like you're finger painting it on.

Forgive me if that doesn't seem like enough to cover your gargantuan stone statue.

There is no such thing as an "improvised armor" so I don't know what you're getting at, but yes I was talking about the ghost touch weapon spell and everything is an improvised weapon.

If the Allip is inside I am going to cast Ectoplasm in round 1, paint it on a stone tentacle inside the GAO in round 2, and in the same round the GAO will use said tentacle to grapple the Allip from the inside.

This is a new thing I thought of just now because I have never faced an incorporeal creature with the GAO before because I only used the GAO once.


Then you still have to worry about gaseous attacks and creatures as well as your GAO being submerged.

Yup, but gaseous attacks aren't good enough to stop me as I only need a move action to command the GAO to do anything. I can't figure out a way you will get this 20ftx20ftx20ft creature submerged unwillingly unless on a boat, and I will never be on a boat.


Not sure I understand the internal structure of this construct. As much as I love and hate it, we might need a scaled map of the proposed interior to progress further with any weaknesses.

It's just a box. Remember the 19 objects near me to constantly re-direct the animate objects effect with? One of them is this box. In any case this use of Make Whole is out-of-combat only and in combat I can only use Make Whole as a resurrection.

The interior of the GAO is anything I want it to be because it's that flexible. By default though I am on top of a Large Animated Object to high tail it out of there if my GAO does fall in combat. Flightless Ravids are reduced to a single action so running away as a Ravid is out of the question.

[Blue Jay]

In any case a rope is a 1gp GAO with hardness 0 and I can animate multiples of them since I will be exposed to the outside world since the rope is too thin to provide full cover, or any cover.

Not all 50-foot objects automatically count as Gargantuan size. As an example, consider that, by RAW, a one-handed weapon sized for a Medium creature is considered a Small object. So a Medium whip, being a one-handed weapon, is a Small object, despite being 10 or 15* feet long (i.e., Large size according to the size category table).

*I'm not sure how much of the whip's reach is accounted for by arm length, but it should be safe to assume that the whip is at least 10 ft long in order for it to make attacks at 15-ft reach, so it clearly doesn't conform to the information in the size table.

You can also find plenty of other discrepancies in size-category designations, especially for long, skinny things like snakes. For example, a marilith is 20 feet long from head to tail (Huge, according to the size table), but counts as only Large size because it usually stands at a height of only 9 feet. Serpent Kingdoms has a Medium-sized glacier snake at 12 feet long (Large on the table), the Tiny-size reed snake at 2-4 ft long (Small on the table), and the Small-sized sewerm at 8 feet long (Medium or Large on the table).

-----

Also, I have some serious doubts about how much control a ravid has over its animate objects aura. In fact, I'm not convinced that it has any control over the aura or over the objects that are animated by it.

But, do y'all think this discussion should go off onto its own thread now?

[Maat Mons]

I already mentioned that method to bind a Mirror Mephit who will create a Simulacrum of a Planetar who will use its prepared Miracle (either by helping you craft a new scroll or casting it itself) to create a Simulacrum of a 34hd creature.

Or you could planar bind a bunch of ravids, and have them pull this same animated objects stuff. Or you planar bind a small army of neraph/glimmerfolk spellcasters, and have them do basically anything. Or an army of casters foolish enough to take the otherworldly feat.

But it's much funnier if the artificer specifically singles out your character, and forces him into involuntary servitude for the rest of his life.

Also, giving yourself the outsider type is just begging to be made into someone's bitch. Why would you do that? You have an entire thread about how planar binding is slavery, and then you say to yourself "I should totally play a character who is a valid target for planar binding."

[RoboEmperor]

Not all 50-foot objects automatically count as Gargantuan size. As an example, consider that, by RAW, a one-handed weapon sized for a Medium creature is considered a Small object. So a Medium whip, being a one-handed weapon, is a Small object, despite being 10 or 15* feet long (i.e., Large size according to the size category table).

*I'm not sure how much of the whip's reach is accounted for by arm length, but it should be safe to assume that the whip is at least 10 ft long in order for it to make attacks at 15-ft reach, so it clearly doesn't conform to the information in the size table.

You can also find plenty of other discrepancies in size-category designations, especially for long, skinny things like snakes. For example, a marilith is 20 feet long from head to tail (Huge, according to the size table), but counts as only Large size because it usually stands at a height of only 9 feet. Serpent Kingdoms has a Medium-sized glacier snake at 12 feet long (Large on the table), the Tiny-size reed snake at 2-4 ft long (Small on the table), and the Small-sized sewerm at 8 feet long (Medium or Large on the table).

-----

Also, I have some serious doubts about how much control a ravid has over its animate objects aura. In fact, I'm not convinced that it has any control over the aura or over the objects that are animated by it.

But, do y'all think this discussion should go off onto its own thread now?

When in doubt, avoid the issue. Gargantuan Glaives are 36gp. Still dirt cheap but doesn't fit in your backpack.

Ravids have full control over their objects. They just don't have the intelligence to do anything with it.

The thread seems to have run its course, this discussion will probably end in a post or two, and I don't think it warrants a thread since very few people are interested in discussing the topic.


Or you could planar bind a bunch of ravids, and have them pull this same animated objects stuff. Or you planar bind a small army of neraph/glimmerfolk spellcasters, and have them do basically anything. Or an army of casters foolish enough to take the otherworldly feat.

But it's much funnier if the artificer specifically singles out your character, and forces him into involuntary servitude for the rest of his life.

Also, giving yourself the outsider type is just begging to be made into someone's bitch. Why would you do that? You have an entire thread about how planar binding is slavery, and then you say to yourself "I should totally play a character who is a valid target for planar binding."

A mirror mephit can create all the ravid simulacra you want. And simulacra of mirror mephits who create ravid simulacra. And simulacra of mirror mephits who create simulacra of mirror mephits who create ravid simulacra.

In order to bind me you need to know my name at which point it becomes Death Note. I'll call myself Kira, L, Mello, or Near. Or Nate River. Or Light or Raito Yagami.

[Maat Mons]

In order to bind me you need to know my name at which point it becomes Death Note.

Nah, the archivist just needs to cast Divination and make a Knowledge check. Tome of Magic talks about it on page 197.

[Blue Jay]

Ravids have full control over their objects. They just don't have the intelligence to do anything with it.

By RAW, the actual spell doesn't even give you total control over the objects. It only gives you two options: (1) initially designate something for the object(s) to attack, and (2) drop some objects to animate different objects as a move action. It doesn't give you any other options for directing the objects' behavior, so you can't tell it where to go or which attack type to use, or anything else. You don't even have the option of redirecting it to attack something different from what you initially designated.

[RoboEmperor]

Nah, the archivist just needs to cast Divination and make a Knowledge check. Tome of Magic talks about it on page 197.

Kudos for you. An Artificer and Archivist working in conjunction will overcome the outsider PC.


By RAW, the actual spell doesn't even give you total control over the objects. It only gives you two options: (1) initially designate something for the object(s) to attack, and (2) drop some objects to animate different objects as a move action. It doesn't give you any other options for directing the objects' behavior, so you can't tell it where to go or which attack type to use, or anything else. You don't even have the option of redirecting it to attack something different from what you initially designated.

1. "Animated objects fight only as directed by the animator. They follow orders without question and to the best of their abilities. Since they do not need to breathe and never tire, they can be extremely capable minions."
2. "Ravids that make their way to the Material Plane wander about aimlessly, followed by the objects to which they have given life."

[Maat Mons]

Kudos for you. An Artificer and Archivist working in conjunction will overcome the outsider PC.

"Archivist" was a typo. My intention was for the same Artificer who crafted the Lesser Planar Binding scroll to Craft a scroll of Divination, from the Oracle Domain.

Or, if you're one of those people who don't believe domains are accessible to Artificers, just bind an Imp or Quasit for access to Commune.