Treantmonk evaluates 8th level spells

[Treantmonk]

I rushed the production of this one as I was on vacation last week, but am satisfied with the list. Let me know what you think.

Treantmonk Evaluates 8th level spells (https://youtu.be/dDQvtkZxTkw)

[The Jack]

But clone is a ticket to immortality...

From a story perspective, that's very exciting. Go retire, continue to accumulate wealth, unlock the secrets of the universe or become young again. I think, if you're never getting enough downtime for a clone at the high levels because the world constantly needs saving, your world aught to burn. Besides, you can get this spell at level 15, you must really be playing in a mad world if you can go up more than a few levels before your first batch is complete.

[jiriku]

TM, I've mostly been talking about the content in my previous comments to you, but let's take a moment and talk about that CGI intro. I get what you're going for there, and it's nice to have some sort of cover slide that makes the presentation formal. That said, this CGI doesn't do what you want it to do.

There's this weird moment or two of silence at the end where the music runs out while the animation is still going. There's something written on the cover of the book, but the scene cuts away so quickly after the book closes that I can't manage to read all of it. The inner world scene has these strange non-D&D anachronisms like the biplane and the train. And the music just... isn't that catchy. Overall the effect just... doesn't sell me on the idea that I'm about to watch a professionally produced presentation about D&D.

I agree that having an intro scene is the right idea. And I'm sure you're planning more youtube videos after this series. Maybe when you start the next video series you could experiment with a new intro sequence and perhaps improve on this one.

[Sudsboy]

Clone is much better when cast via Wish, but the point about it preventing a Raise Dead never occurred to me. I also benefited from your explanation of Demiplane's uses. I considered it a good spell, but I never thought about using it to transport treasure, which is always a major PITA in our campaign.

Thanks, enjoyed it very much :-)

[dejarnjc]

Clone is a spell that always makes me question why liches even bother being liches

[Trask]

Clone is a spell that always makes me question why liches even bother being liches

Lich clones would be even harder to kill than regular ones

Always be prepared

[Merudo]

Is Earthquake really underrated? Most of its useful effects (difficult terrain, prone, concentration save) can be replicated by the level 3 spell Sleet Storm.

As for Feeblemind, it can totally shut down Clerics, Sorcerers, and Warlocks. Those are the targets you want to cast it on, not the Wizards.

I'm not sure if I see why Animal Shapes is the best level 8 spell. At that level, Large or smaller CR4 beasts have miserable hitpoints. It only takes an aoe or two to totally wipe them out. Said creatures don't have any magical attacks, either. And they have terrible accuracy & do so little damage, they can typically be safely ignored anyway.

[dejarnjc]

Lich clones would be even harder to kill than regular ones

Always be prepared

I assume if your soul is in a phylactery it won't be able to transfer to a clone :/

[SociopathFriend]

As for Feeblemind, it can totally shut down Clerics, Sorcerers, and Warlocks. Those are the targets you want to cast it on, not the Wizards.


And Paladins- don't forget the Paladins. Sure they still can whack stuff with whatever is in their hand but their auras, spell DCs, and general combat-effectiveness plummet to literally worse than animals. At Intelligence 1 I frankly don't consider it implausible that they forget HOW they should fight even if they, per the spell's definition, do not forget WHO they should fight.

(May or may not still be salty about getting Feebleminded round 1 of a boss fight and spending the entire battle dumber than the mount I was riding)

[Ganders]

I watched it thinking of a warlock.

Of the five possible spells, four were on your worst or most overrated lists, and the last was on the most underrated list.

Pretty specific recommendation.

[Pex]

I strongly suspect Glibness was made 8th level because people female dogged and moaned when it was a 2nd level spell in 3E saying it made talking to NPCs irrelevant, an auto win for the spellcaster. Even accepting it should be higher than 2nd level they overcompensated.

[Asmotherion]

The clone spell is by itself a bit more limited than, say, duplicating it via a Wish spell, witch really brings it to it's full glory. The costly components and time it needs for fruition will mean you can probably only cast this once, and for 1 party member (so unless you're super selfless, yourself) and even then, it either means you come back some months latter, missing in action in the meanwile/ failing the quest if you manage to cast it on the full party to avoid a tpk), or your supper cool DM gives you the appropriate downtime, it triggers, and then you're back to having no clone avalable.

However, for that purpose (Wish Duplication) it's mostly an amazing spell, as it does mean virtual Immortality. You just need to circle through the spell on the party for downtime, to have a stock of clones available, preferably on a different demiplane each.

[MaxWilson]

I'm not sure if I see why Animal Shapes is the best level 8 spell. At that level, Large or smaller CR4 beasts have miserable hitpoints. It only takes an aoe or two to totally wipe them out. Said creatures don't have any magical attacks, either. And they have terrible accuracy & do so little damage, they can typically be safely ignored anyway.

I could make an argument for Holy Aura as the best 8th level spell. Advantage on saves for everyone (all saves, not just saves vs. spells and magical effects like Circle of Power gives you), disadvantage to everyone who attacks you, and potential blinding of fiends/undead (with no save-again-every-round clause). It's a strong effect which scales well with number of PCs/minions, almost like Foresight for the entire party.

It's a strong candidate for Bardic magical secrets and a strong candidate for your concentration in any tough fight.

Animal Shapes is a very amusing spell to think about, and strong in a Combat As War scenario where you actually do have lot of mice from the local barn to transform into Cave Bears or Giant Lightning Eels or Giant Scorpions in order to smash the left flank of the hobgoblin army or whatever... but how strong is it really going to be at the table? If you're a 16th level PC going up against a CR 20 Ancient White Dragon or a conclave of Mind Flayers or something similarly big, three dozen Giant Scorpions or Cave Bears is not going to be decisive (too easy to evade and/or kill with AoEs). And if you're going up against something weaker, it's not worth the bother, since Conjure Animals V/VII will do approximately the same job with a lot less logistical hassle and pre-planning required. If you're going to spend a bunch of effort and planning on a tactic, it needs to be stronger than I think Animal Shapes is. If you could get huge CR 3 creatures like Quetzalcoatlus and Giant Constrictor Snakes I think you could argue that it might be worth it, but you can't, so I think Treantmonk is overrating it.

BTW, Glibness is not terrible, it's just niche. A bard with Glibness can auto-succeed on dispelling/counterspelling even 9th level spells.

It's tough to pick best spells, but for 8th level I'd probably have to go with Illusory Dragon (invulnerable tanky dragon with a pretty good multi-type AoE as a bonus action? yes please, and that's not even counting the fear effect), Holy Aura, and Antipathy/Sympathy (as Treantmonk says, it scales well in Combat As War scenarios when you can pre-plan, and has a good strong no-concentration effect; you can even potentially combine the effects to keep enemies frightened and repulsed but unable to actually flee).

I'd like to put Maze in that list too but (1) it takes concentration, and (2) there are countermeasures (like Plane Shift and Dispel Magic), (3) the creature cannot be attacked while it's away. Ultimately you just don't get enough bang for the buck--Maze is ultimately quite similar to Otto's Irresistible Dance in terms of its effect on action economy, but at least with Otto's you can attack the creature at advantage for a round or so, and more importantly Otto's is cheaper. So Maze doesn't make the top three list for me. (And against anything non-Gargantuan, Maze is dominated by Forcecage as well.)


As for Feeblemind, it can totally shut down Clerics, Sorcerers, and Warlocks. Those are the targets you want to cast it on, not the Wizards.

Even Druids are a good target, since +6 save proficiency doesn't mean much against DC 19 if you've only got Int 11 or 13ish.

Frankly, the effect is strong enough that it's not completely ridiculous to try Feebleminding even a wizard with +11 to Int saves. A 100 HP wizard can survive a Meteor Swarm thanks to Absorb Elements, and even if he doesn't have Absorb Elements and fails his save and winds up taking 140 HP of damage, by vanilla PHB rules he's back up and running as soon as he gets 1 HP of healing. But if you Feeblemind him instead of Meteor Swarming, he's down for the count.

Therefore, a druid with +6 is a good target, a paladin with +5ish is a better target, and a cleric/bard/sorcerer/warlock with +0ish is an excellent target.

Feeblemind's greatest weakness is that it may be possible to Dispel it. It has Duration: Instantaneous, which would normally imply that it cannot be dispelled, but the spell also has inconsistent language. See http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374918-Feeblemind-Duration for discussion.

[Pex]

I find it interesting Feeblemind used to be the bane of wizards in previous editions. They even had a specific penalty to their saving throw for that spell. Now they are the strongest to save against it; it's almost not worth trying against them.

[Deathtongue]

Holy Aura is so good that I could see you casting it in a 9th level spell slot or a Bard/Wizard/Sorcerer casting it with Wish. If your party has decent but not unhittable ACs (like in the 20 - 24 range) it turns dangerous encounters into jokes.

Demiplane also has a really cheesy use: load it up with your favorite Glyph of Warding buffs and treat it like a Superman transformation telephone booth.

[darknite]

The only 8th level spell my Wizard typically takes is Maze. It's a good "Get that guy off the battlefield for at least a round!" spell around due to no saves. All the other 8th level spells I want to use are typically Wish-cast. I've seen Holy Aura do some amazing things, too.

Not a fan of Feeblemind. In my experience it's pretty much only good for shutting down non-Wizard casters. DMs and players typically breeze through the 1 Int thing by saying "I can still protect my friends!" to keep right on attacking in melee. When I DM my line back to such players is, "Your PC once had an INT of 1. Do you know when? When they were born! Imagine you're a baby, that's about the extent of leeway I'm willing to give you for your actions - no extra melee attacks, no proficiency, just natural weapons ... you get the jist."

[OracularPoet]

Admittedly this is an edge case, but I think it’s funny that Feeblemind cast on someone wearing a Headband of Intellect just turns them into a giant social duffus (INT stays at 19, CHA drops to 1). Geekzilla.

On edit: though RAW (and RAI I assume) still can’t cast spells or activate magic items.

[Deathtongue]

The only 8th level spell my Wizard typically takes is Maze. It's a good "Get that guy off the battlefield for at least a round!" spell around due to no saves.The fun thing about Maze is that it's quite likely to take a monster off of the board for more than a minute -- and there are a number of 'ambush' spells that are balanced around being a minute to cast. Magic Circle, Tiny Hut, Symbol come to mind. Granted, you won't be able to do this by yourself, but the price is pretty small compared to what you can get.

You can technically do this with other 'take out the bad guy for 1 minute' spells like Banishment and Hypnotic Pattern, but unless you have Extend Spell coordination can be a pain in the butt, especially with other monsters on the field.

That said, at this point in the game you have Forcecage and Wall of Force so it's not really worth it for that effect alone unless you're fighting something Gargantuan or is especially teleport-y.

[Thrasher92]

With the Clone spell, in the text it says the the soul transfers to the clone, provided that the soul is free and willing to return. So, if my character dies but believes he has a solid chance at being resurrected, couldn't he just not be willing to return to the Clone body and just wait to be resurrected?

[JellyPooga]

BTW, Glibness is not terrible, it's just niche. A bard with Glibness can auto-succeed on dispelling/counterspelling even 9th level spells.

Not only does Glibness put any Abjurer to shame (not that Bards weren't anyway) when it comes to Counterspell (which I like to call the "Nope" build. Also worth noting that if AMF is one of the best 8th level spells because it shuts down casters, then Glibness should be equally well considered for the same reason), but it also trivialises social encounters to the point of being ludicrous. Any socially focused Bard worth his lute is going to have Expertise in at least Persuasion, if not Deception as well; at level 15, he's probably rocking +15 to those checks. Every Persuasion check he makes can achieve the "Nearly Impossible" DC:30. Every. Single. Time. The possibilities of this are, of course, open to GM interpretation, but we're talking about the likes of convincing someone you're their long-lost brother that they never knew about, talking your way out of a jail cell even though you absolutely and justifiably deserve to be in one, that you're really a Dragon in human form...the more ludicrous it sounds, makes no odds; you can reliably make the unbelievable believable. For an hour a day. That's way more than the advantage that Enhance Ability offers; with mere Advantage, there is still an element of chance. Glibness removes that uncertainty.

[The Jack]

With the Clone spell, in the text it says the the soul transfers to the clone, provided that the soul is free and willing to return. So, if my character dies but believes he has a solid chance at being resurrected, couldn't he just not be willing to return to the Clone body and just wait to be resurrected?

This is true.

Also, I suspect there's not really a limit to the clones you can have of yourself/others.

and since you can clone others, there's a great bargaining chip to be had with other npcs. It costs two thousand per tank and a thousand per clone, but isn't that a cheap price to pay for a king, bishop or any well off noble? Consider that a full suit of plate costs 1500, and lowly knights afford that, so you've got a real potential market. Charge at least six thousand a head and you'll be rolling in it.
King is growing old and his successors are ****? Big bucks, save the kingdom.
Princess comatose with rare illness? Well, does she have 120 days? Big bucks.
World's greatest defender going to die of old age? big bucks.

Sad part is that RAW, it's only medium creatures, so your dragon will be a wyrmling and your giant a babe. I think, reasonably, you should be able to make a larger container for more expense, but It's not RAW

[Spiritchaser]

Jellypooga already addressed this but I feel compelled to add my voice:

Glibness as a bad spell?

Really?

It would not be much of an overstatement to say that this one spell is a ticket to victory in nearly any mage duel.

It makes you the ultimate magical ban hammer. Abjurers? Bah, mere children...

Try fighting an NPC caster and a minion with this up and you will appreciate how encounter bending this can be.

Yes a sorcerer with subtle spell will mess this up, but that’s reasonable and that’s very rare.

It’s not even as though the social aspect of this spell is useless either.

Now, this IS less strong for a warlock since you have fewer slots and few options, but even there, slapping some Uber archmage around is really just too much fun to be discarded out of hand.

Grumble grumble grumble.

[Treantmonk]

Demiplane also has a really cheesy use: load it up with your favorite Glyph of Warding buffs and treat it like a Superman transformation telephone booth.

Oh my god. If a player did that when I was DM'ing, I think I would stand up, walk up to them, then slap them in the face. Once they agreed they deserved it, I would return to my seat.

[Treantmonk]

It would not be much of an overstatement to say that this one spell is a ticket to victory in nearly any mage duel.

As spell ranges start increasing past 60' and encounters become bigger and bigger in scale, counterspell becomes less and less viable as an archmage killer at high levels. Especially

That said, I have a random wondering...

Diviner casts a spell.
Bard casts counterspell.
Diviner uses Portent to change result of counterspell to a low #
Bard has Glibness cast.

Which takes precident, the Glibness or Portent?

[jas61292]

That said, I have a random wondering...

Diviner casts a spell.
Bard casts counterspell.
Diviner uses Portent to change result of counterspell to a low #
Bard has Glibness cast.

Which takes precident, the Glibness or Portent?

Fairly certain Glibness wins out. Portent makes the number you low roll. You just don't roll and get what you want. But Glibness does not make the number you roll high. You just ignore what you rolled and use 15 instead.

Since Portent is inherently pre roll and Glibness is post roll, Glibness would override Portent. In my opinion at least.

[Spiritchaser]

As spell ranges start increasing past 60' and encounters become bigger and bigger in scale, counterspell becomes less and less viable as an archmage killer at high levels. Especially

That said, I have a random wondering...

Diviner casts a spell.
Bard casts counterspell.
Diviner uses Portent to change result of counterspell to a low #
Bard has Glibness cast.

Which takes precident, the Glibness or Portent?

I’m not touching that portent conflict, at least not without thinking for a long while, however, given that a magic users mobility is largely magic, I’ve actually witnessed the opposite. Counterspell makes combat more sticky and claustrophobic.

By the time the bbeg realizes something can counterspell everything without a roll, he’s having all his dimension doors or teleports cancelled.

I’ll grant there are ways to break los, hide, run, or otherwise survive, and that’s obviously for the best... but it really becomes cat and mouse...

[qube]

As spell ranges start increasing past 60' and encounters become bigger and bigger in scale, counterspell becomes less and less viable as an archmage killer at high levels. Especially

That said, I have a random wondering...

Diviner casts a spell.
Bard casts counterspell.
Diviner uses Portent to change result of counterspell to a low #
Bard has Glibness cast.

Which takes precident, the Glibness or Portent?Rulewise: What the DM says. Both say "You can replace [a roll] with [something]". My first answer as such was "Neither" as D&D doesn't have a rule like 'the current player's power triggers first over the non-current player', but then I though - technically if that happens, it falls on the DM to make that call.

RAF: the PC over the NPC, unless the story dictate otherwise, I consider it bad-form to make player's abilities useless.

---
Glibness + (lots of) counterspell makes for an interesting variation of antimagic field
+ larger range
+ a mage can be cought by supprise
- much more spell slots
- action intensive

[Draken]

3.5 talk coming.

When I wrote the Evolutionist, a I told another homebrewer friend of mine that I classify class abilities in three overall groups: "Combat Abilities", "Noncombat Abilities" and "Screw Those Peasants Over There Abilities".

Control Weather, to me, is a Screw Those Peasants Over There ability. So is Storm of Vengeance. So is Rain of Fire (the epic level spell), so is Apocalypse from the Sky. So is Sign (back to the evolutionist, in which I let players grab a Sign of the Apocalypse to emanate all the time).

None of these are likely to provide meaningful help in combat, or allow you to get to places you wouldn't otherwise be able to go (either due to mobility limits or because someone doesn't want you to go there and can enforce this). What these abilities do is devastate an area of around 1 mile in radius, usually more. What these abilities do is make the lives of people in the setting objectively worse, immediately and, with proper targeting, in the long term. These are abilities that you don't use for heroism and monster hunting. These are abilities for causing a famine and ruining nations.

And while I love putting those in, I hope nobody will ever mistake their purpose.

-------

On a different note. I want to ask whoever thought Glibness deserved a +5 spell level bump.

Why?

[Pex]

Glibness helping with Counterspell I think is an unforeseen side effect. It should be obvious the spell is meant for Persuasion, Deception, etc. RAI as opposed to RAW. It's not unreasonable for a DM to house rule clarify it's for skill use only. It's a loophole.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Glibness helping with Counterspell I think is an unforeseen side effect. It should be obvious the spell is meant for Persuasion, Deception, etc. RAI as opposed to RAW. It's not unreasonable for a DM to house rule clarify it's for skill use only. It's a loophole.

I'm more inclined to believe that it was a deliberate decision based on how unreasonably high the spell level seems when it's only on charisma based casters.

Only Charisma casters make checks using Charisma to Counterspell, makes a lot of sense to make sure that a Bard or Warlock picking up the spell wouldn't automatically succeed on any counterspell attempt they made starting at 10th and 5th level respectively.

I don't think they hit the right spell level even with that in mind, but I don't think it was an oversight.

[Spiritchaser]

Glibness helping with Counterspell I think is an unforeseen side effect. It should be obvious the spell is meant for Persuasion, Deception, etc. RAI as opposed to RAW. It's not unreasonable for a DM to house rule clarify it's for skill use only. It's a loophole.

I can’t agree

It’s too high a level otherwise

The only classes that get it are charisma casters

The only charisma caster who doesn’t get it is sorcerer, which also feels deliberate, as subtle spell already gives sorcerer an edge in magic duels, and subtle spell plus subtle counterspell with glibness would be extremely potent.

EDIT: basically what Prosecutorgodot said

[Jasder]

Glibness isn't that great, because while it can be used to auto-succeed on counterspell checks it can easily not be worth it in two simple scenarios

Two Casters or more. You can only counterspell one of them, which means you've used an 8th level spell and your reaction every turn and at least a 3rd level slot to shut down one person. Additionally, if it's someone using magical powers which aren't spells, counterspell does nothing, so Glibness is also useless.

Second option, one spell caster. You counterspell and would auto-succeed, they counterspell your counterspell. You do nothing with an 8th level spell, a reaction, and at least a 3rd level slot.

Glibness can be useful sure, but as an 8th level spell it's so expensive and yet so easily made redundant.

[The Jack]

Also, how can you sleep in a demiplane if it's empty and thus has no air of it's own? It's fair use while the door is open, but I don't think it's wise to spend a night in a 30ft cube with a bunch of mouth breathers, do you? :thog:

[ProsecutorGodot]

Also, how can you sleep in a demiplane if it's empty and thus has no air of it's own? It's fair use while the door is open, but I don't think it's wise to spend a night in a 30ft cube with a bunch of mouth breathers, do you? :thog:

Even though I think this might be sarcasm, I feel the need to point out that Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion is a spell designed with sleeping inside of it in mind. It lists the atmosphere as "Clean, Fresh and Warm" so using your logic "Breathable" is notably missing and thus you would eventually risk suffocation staying inside.

Spaces that have a limited amount of air typically state that, such as Portable Holes and Bag of Holding.

[Deathtongue]

How much better is Glibness than simply having advantage on Charisma checks?

[Jasder]

How much better is Glibness than simply having advantage on Charisma checks?

I often hear that advantage is roughly equivalent to +5. Obviously, that's not exactly accurate, but it does give a general guideline that I have found works. I seem to hit about as much as a barbarian with great weapon master using reckless attack, as I do as a Barbarian with neither of those.

Similarly, the average d20 dice roll is 10, so with advantage you might expect an average of 15 anyway, the advantage (pun intended) of it is that you can also roll higher, the disadvantage is you can still get lower rolls as well.

I'd say 15 is better than advantage, but not 6 spell slot levels better. So Glibness vs Enhance Ability on Charisma checks then sure, Glibness is better, but is it worth it? No, not really.

[JellyPooga]

How much better is Glibness than simply having advantage on Charisma checks?

Advantage on Charisma = Non-Zero Chance of rolling lower than 15
Glibness = Zero Chance of rolling lower than 15

Answer: A lot.

Longer Answer: It depends on what you're using it for. I won't go into the stats (someone else can do that), because I believe they're irrelevant; context is everything;

In the case of the Counterspell, Advantage is probably the better choice (assuming you're getting from Enhance Ability or some equally lower valued resource; as a Bard, you're got Jack of All Trades giving you half-prof to Counterspell checks anyway; by level 15, that means your Counterspelling with somewhere in the region of +7 to your roll and at most you'll be needing to roll 12 or higher to counter even 9th level spells. That's pretty damned good odds.

If you're using it for social encounters, though...that's where Glibness really shines. As I mentioned in my earlier post, guaranteeing that you can hit DC:30 is worth an awful lot. Advantage is good and may give you that 30 some or even a lot of the time, but the same can be said of not having Advantage or even having Disadvantage. Dice are funny that way. When you take away the dice and enter the realm of "I'm now dictating events"...that's a powerful tool indeed.

[MaxWilson]

How much better is Glibness than simply having advantage on Charisma checks?

It depends. In the most extreme case that is still plausible (Cha 18 15th level Warlock trying to Counterspell or Dispel a 9th level spell spell with a 3rd level slot) you're looking at a DC 19 check and either 100% success with Glibness (15 + 4) or a 51% chance of success with Enhance Ability (advantage d20 + 4). That puts an upper bound on how big the difference between them can possibly be: quite large but not absolutely overwhelming. (If the warlock is Hexed on Charisma to cancel out Enhance ABility, success rate goes down to 30%, which does make the difference overwhelming, but that circumstance is beyond what I'd call "plausible.")

What about a more normal scenario, like a Cha 20 Bard 15 trying to Counterspell a 5th level spell like Wall of Force? DC 15 means you're looking at either 100% chance of success with Glibness (15 + 7) or 88% with Enhance Ability (advantage d20 + 7). In that scenario I'd go so far as to say that the difference is miniscule.

The real difference is therefore somewhere between (51% => 100%) and (88% => 100%).

So the real question here is: how likely are you to be fighting foes that throw around high-level spells such that the % success on Counterspell is the decisive factor, and not the availability of reactions or being able to see the caster or being within 60'? Do you really expect to have to Counterspell a bunch of Meteor Swarms and Power Word Kills in the next hour? If so, Glibness is probably your thing.

That is why overall I'd rate Glibness as "niche". Not bad like Treantmonk says, not amazingly OP like some other posters think, but somewhere in between--niche.

Best 8th level spells: Illusionary Dragon, Holy Aura, Antipathy Sympathy.
Worst 8th level spells: Abi Dalzim's Horrid Wilting, Control Weather, Mind Blank especially by strict RAW.

(By strict RAW, Mind Blank doesn't even protect you from the Fear spell unless Fear was cast via Wish. If the DM rules that Mind Blank makes you immune to all mental and emotional manipulation it becomes quite a bit better.)

Remark on Power Word: Stun: Power Word Stun is not a good spell, but it pairs well with Feeblemind in the sense that it's a wizard killer: weak Con saves and typically lowish HP + no initial save + no more reaction spells like Shield / no Bladesong = dead wizard.


I'd say 15 is better than advantage, but not 6 spell slot levels better. So Glibness vs Enhance Ability on Charisma checks then sure, Glibness is better, but is it worth it? No, not really.

Concentration is of course also a factor. You can have Glibness + Greater Invisibility running concurrently on yourself; you cannot hold Enhance Ability + Greater Invisibility concurrently. And Greater Invisibility (or Darkness or whatever) is important when Counterspelling.

[Merudo]

Best 8th level spells: Illusionary Dragon, Holy Aura, Antipathy Sympathy.
Worst 8th level spells: Abi Dalzim's Horrid Wilting, Control Weather, Mind Blank especially by strict RAW.


I mostly agree with this list - although I'm not sure if I would rank Illusory Dragon higher than AMF.

About Illusory Dragon - what's the consensus regarding its illusory nature? Are enemies going to waste several turns attacking it, or will they ignore it once they realize something is amiss?

[ProsecutorGodot]

I mostly agree with this list - although I'm not sure if I would rank Illusory Dragon higher than AMF.

About Illusory Dragon - what's the consensus regarding its illusory nature? Are enemies going to waste several turns attacking it, or will they ignore it once they realize something is amiss?

If we follow the spells stat block, they've got to make an investigation check using their action to determine that it's an illusion in the first place. It also has the following properties:
-it feels tangible, meaning that attacking or touching it is not enough to confirm it is an illusion
-it is huge and occupies it's space as if it were a creature. This means that it's solid and can't be moved through by hostiles.
-it is opaque unless you make your investigation check and understand it to be an illusion

Even if a creature is skeptical of how real it is at the sudden appearance, the amount of damage it can cause is enough to dissuade someone from outright ignoring it. A smart enemy might realize that their attacks are ineffective and attempt to discern it's true nature. Note that this does not make them immune to the dragon even if they understand it's an illusion.

Best case scenario, you're fighting a bunch of buffoons who attempt to kill/run away from an unkillable dragon. Worst case scenario is at least one of the enemies understands that it's not real and still has to treat it as a threat, either retreating until it's gone or altogether from the fight. I don't mention worst case as the wizard being focused as the summoner of this dragon because even if the smartest guy on the hostile side figures out it's an illusion, it's still a huge tangible wall to hide behind.

tl;dr - Yes, they would probably change tactics once they figure out that it's an illusion. This doesn't detract a lot of power from the spell. Most creatures would probably run away from it even if they knew it wasn't real.

[Deathtongue]

I have a problem calling Mind Blank the worst 8th-level spell, since it lasts for 24 hours. At the very least you can put it in a Glyph of Warding or even just precast it late at night before you re-prepare your spells.

This is even beyond how the last sentence of the spell is VERY broad. A not-particularly generous reading of Mind Blank, say, locks out fear, confusion, and truesight/True Seeing.

[Deathtongue]

tl;dr - Yes, they would probably change tactics once they figure out that it's an illusion. This doesn't detract a lot of power from the spell. Most creatures would probably run away from it even if they knew it wasn't real.
I don't like Illusory Dragon because it encourages DMs to metagame their NPCs into thought ninjas. "So and so makes an investigation check because the 7d6 of the illusion doesn't feel like REAL dragon's breath." or "The dragon didn't take any legendary actions, so what's-her-face knows something is up and just treats it as a complex piece of terrain."

It's like Mental Prison or Phantasmal Force. They're VERY strong if the DM plays along and plays the creature according to the dictates of common sense. But there's no way to force the DM to play along and there are enough loopholes in the spells that you can't exactly call someone out on metagaming if they can think of a half-assed reason.

It's a problem with illusions in general, which is why I'm reluctant to play any serious kind of illusion-user that's not a 14th-level Illusionist.

[MaxWilson]

I don't like Illusory Dragon because it encourages DMs to metagame their NPCs into thought ninjas. "So and so makes an investigation check because the 8d6 of the illusion doesn't feel like REAL dragon's breath." or "The dragon didn't take any legendary actions, so what's-her-face knows something is up and just treats it as a complex piece of terrain."

It's like Mental Prison or Phantasmal Force. They're VERY strong if the DM plays along and plays the creature according to the dictates of common sense. But there's no way to force the DM to play along.

It's a problem with illusions in general, which is why I'm reluctant to play any serious kind of illusion-user that's not a 14th-level Illusionist.

As a DM, my preferred solution is: since you can "use your action" to investigate the illusion, any attempt to take the illusion seriously (e.g. by attacking it or casting spells at it) counts as investigating, and instead of rolling damage you get a chance to notice that it's an illusion (e.g. something looks off about the way your arrows are bouncing off it).

This takes the subjectivity out of illusion magic and prevents it from being either outrageously strong or incredibly weak.

For Illusionary Dragon, note that Int saves are tough to pass and even after you detect the illusion, you're still probably taking damage on most rounds. (Plus, it comes with fear with no range limitation.)

It's an army killer. If you want to wreck a regiment of hobgoblins without getting wrecked yourself, Illusory Dragon is top shelf. (You'll probably kill a few hundred goblins and shatter the cohesion of the rest.) It solves for large quantities of minions.

Therefore, if you want to take out an ancient red dragon protected by an army of hobgoblins, Illusory Dragon + Antipathy/Sympathy (red dragons) might be a good strategy.

[Deathtongue]

As a DM, my preferred solution is: since you can "use your action" to investigate the illusion, any attempt to take the illusion seriously (e.g. by attacking it or casting spells at it) counts as investigating, and instead of rolling damage you get a chance to notice that it's an illusion (e.g. something looks off about the way your arrows are bouncing off it).That's great, but a lot of (I'd say most, given my experiences with Phantasmal Force and Mental Prison and Major Image) DMs don't play it that way. They have the creatures know something is off without actually investigating it and instead of confirming it's an illusory dragon just leave hard confirmation up in the air and treat it as an obstacle. You know the type: you put 3 out of 4 enemies in a Hypnotic Pattern, they all use their action to shake the other one loose.

[ProsecutorGodot]

That's great, but a lot of (I'd say most, given my experiences with Phantasmal Force and Mental Prison and Major Image) DMs don't play it that way. They have the creatures know something is off without actually investigating it and instead of confirming it's an illusory dragon just leave hard confirmation up in the air and treat it as an obstacle. You know the type: you put 3 out of 4 enemies in a Hypnotic Pattern, they all use their action to shake the other one loose.

Players do this sort of thing all the time. Seems pretty obvious that if one person saves against a spell, knowing that he was going to suffer the same fate as his 3 companions he would use his action to help them and then a free action to say "help the others". Your spell has still given you a whole turn where the enemies haven't done anything.

Hypnotic Pattern is probably a bad example, I understand the point you're trying to make and I agree that sometimes it's a little too convenient how smart an NPC is when faced with an illusion but Hypnotic Pattern is both incredibly obvious when cast and incredibly obvious about who failed to resist.

The benefit to Illusory Dragon is that even though it's an illusion, knowing or believing that it might be doesn't help you a whole lot. It's still a huge obstacle that can deal continuous damage to you even if you know it's not real.

[Deathtongue]

Hypnotic Pattern is probably a bad example, I understand the point you're trying to make and I agree that sometimes it's a little too convenient how smart an NPC is when faced with an illusion but Hypnotic Pattern is both incredibly obvious when cast and incredibly obvious about who failed to resist.Hypnotic Pattern is a great example of the metagaming encouragement I'm talking about. I don't ever see enemies wasting their time trying to shake Confusion / Command / Hold Person victim free even if those spells also have the effect of 'have the enemy stand by in a stupor'.

If we accept a world where chain-shaking Hypnotic Pattern is considered fair game (and unfortunately it is, because rule zero and all) then we have to accept a world where Illusory Dragon doesn't meaningfully draw enemy attacks. To that end, it's really wanting for an 8th level spell. It's not bad, it's just not great.

[Belac93]

Treantmonk, it's been a while since I've been on these forums, but I wanted to say I loved your old guides and I'm really glad you're still doing it, they're quite awesome. I always like seeing your ratings and evaluations.

[MaxWilson]

That's great, but a lot of (I'd say most, given my experiences with Phantasmal Force and Mental Prison and Major Image) DMs don't play it that way. They have the creatures know something is off without actually investigating it and instead of confirming it's an illusory dragon just leave hard confirmation up in the air and treat it as an obstacle. You know the type: you put 3 out of 4 enemies in a Hypnotic Pattern, they all use their action to shake the other one loose.

Those DMs, IMO, are running the game in an un-fun way w/rt those spells you describe. They probably do other un-fun things too like railroading and quantum ogres. Don't be those DMs.


If we accept a world where chain-shaking Hypnotic Pattern is considered fair game (and unfortunately it is, because rule zero and all) then we have to accept a world where Illusory Dragon doesn't meaningfully draw enemy attacks. To that end, it's really wanting for an 8th level spell. It's not bad, it's just not great.

I agree that under those circumstances, Illusory Dragon is middle of the pack, not a spell that would top your list, especially if the DM also is the type to favor small numbers of high-CR creatures over a wide range of encounter types (one of the tenets of bounded accuracy is that monsters don't go obsolete--hobgoblins and githyanki are still appropriate foes for 20th level PCs, in sufficient numbers). If you don't ever fight ancient red dragons protected by a regiment of hobgoblins, then having a spell like Illusory Dragon that can smash a hobgoblin regiment isn't meaningful.

[Woglin]

Glibness isn't that great, because while it can be used to auto-succeed on counterspell checks it can easily not be worth it in two simple scenarios

Two Casters or more. You can only counterspell one of them, which means you've used an 8th level spell and your reaction every turn and at least a 3rd level slot to shut down one person. Additionally, if it's someone using magical powers which aren't spells, counterspell does nothing, so Glibness is also useless.

Second option, one spell caster. You counterspell and would auto-succeed, they counterspell your counterspell. You do nothing with an 8th level spell, a reaction, and at least a 3rd level slot.

Glibness can be useful sure, but as an 8th level spell it's so expensive and yet so easily made redundant.

There's one other application, and the one that sells it for me: Glibness turns Telekinesis into a near auto-success under most circumstances. Glibnokinesis can restrain or disarm virtually any opponent, and is particularly good against foes with legendary resistance. It has only come up a couple of times, but that spell combination has saved our party in some dire situations.

If you're a Bard with Telekinesis as a magical secret (already an attractive pick, as it benefits from Jack of All Trades) then Glibness suddenly becomes an excellent situational buff spell, especially with such a small pool of other 8th level options.

[MaxWilson]

There's one other application, and the one that sells it for me: Glibness turns Telekinesis into a near auto-success under most circumstances. Glibnokinesis can restrain or disarm virtually any opponent, and is particularly good against foes with legendary resistance. It has only come up a couple of times, but that spell combination has saved our party in some dire situations.

If you're a Bard with Telekinesis as a magical secret (already an attractive pick, as it benefits from Jack of All Trades) then Glibness suddenly becomes an excellent situational buff spell, especially with such a small pool of other 8th level options.

It's an interesting idea, but I'm not convinced.

(1) It still only works on Huge or smaller creatures, so most of the thing you'd really want to bypass Legendary Resistance on (ancient dragons, Tarrasques, Empyreans, etc.) are ineligible targets. For Huge creatures you could just use Forcecage for similar effect, a lower spell slot cost, and no Magical Secret cost.

(2) With Cha 20 and Glibness and Jack of All Trades, you're still only getting auto-23 (15 + 5 + 3). A Huge Adult Red Dragon has +8 to Strength checks and will lose that contest 30% of the time. Without Glibness he'd lose the contest 47.5% of the time. Not a huge difference IMO, not enough to get excited about spending an 8th level slot on, especially when Enhance Ability (Charisma) or Hex (Strength) has a similar magnitude of effect (about 30% chance the dragon will lose).

I probably wouldn't use this combo.