First-person dungeon crawlers?

[Rodin]

With a lack of new Elder Scrolls, I've been getting the itch again for the good old first-person fantasy game where I get to smash skeletons in the face with a hammer. I've been putting off the urge by looking longingly at Underworld Ascendant, supposedly a spiritual successor for Ultima Underworld.

Unfortunately, that game has finally released and it appears to be a hot mess on the same order of magnitude as Aliens: Colonial Marines. Half the features missing, game released in an alpha state, kickstarter backers up in arms, and the studio refusing to send out review copies while insisting it's perfectly normal for a game to have zero professional reviews on release day.

That's left me in a bit of quandary, because there just isn't that much in the genre out there - or at least, not ones I haven't played.

So, I'm wondering if there's any I've missed.

What I'm looking for:

FPS
Fantasy, not Sci-Fi - for example, Skyrim would fit but Fallout wouldn't. Swords, not guns.
Real-time rather than turn-based.
True 3D - I say this to separate out the likes of Legend of Grimrock, which are undoubtedly fine games but are tile-based 2.5D.
Preferably not a Rogue-Like - I'm looking for a handcrafted dungeon I can conquer rather than randomness.

----

The options on Steam that meet those requirements are...surprisingly limited. Dungeon Crawler tag mostly just gets you the 2.5D style or more turn-based fare, and fantasy RPGs are so broadly defined they're impossible to search for.

[Cespenar]

I'm just going to vaguely cast out some titles:

Might and Magic 6-9
Wizardry [insert number]
Arx Fatalis

And my ace in the hole:

Dark Messiah of Might and Magic

[Knaight]

You're effectively looking for a sub-sub-subgenre and while the genre is pretty large none of those added layers of specificity are grabbing particularly large fractions of the next largest group.

What few options there are seem to be Might and Magic X - Legacy, Arx Fatalis, Ultima Underworld (I and II), Dark Messiah, and Vampire The Masquerade - Bloodlines (assuming urban fantasy is close enough). You'll notice that my research pulled up pretty much the same list Cespenar had, and that's probably not a coincidence.

[Olinser]

Yeah Wizardry series is probably closed to what you're looking for (I consider Wizardry 8 to be the best entry).

On the unmentioned front you could go for Lands of Lore 2 (NOT 3, that was an unfinished bug-ridden mess that should never have been released)

[Zombimode]

Yeah Wizardry series is probably closed to what you're looking for (I consider Wizardry 8 to be the best entry).

On the unmentioned front you could go for Lands of Lore 2 (NOT 3, that was an unfinished bug-ridden mess that should never have been released)

The Lands of Lore 3 that I've played and finished earlier this year was neither bug-ridden nor unfinished.
It was a fine game in its certainly unique way. I found it not particularly better or worse then LoL1 or LoL2. I've enjoyed all three and liked the fact that they were so different from each other.

[factotum]

What few options there are seem to be Might and Magic X - Legacy

Might and Magic X is actually a grid-based game like Legend of Grimrock, and he already ruled those out. I honestly don't know *why* it's like that when the previous 4 games in the series (at least--never played 5 or older) were free-moving 3D.


Yeah Wizardry series is probably closed to what you're looking for (I consider Wizardry 8 to be the best entry).

He said no turn-based games, and Wizardry are definitely that.

Speaking for myself: Dragon's Dogma is definitely a first-person dungeon crawler type game, but it gets pretty brutally difficult after the major story event about halfway through--probably worth it just for the first half, though.

[Knaight]

Might and Magic X is actually a grid-based game like Legend of Grimrock, and he already ruled those out. I honestly don't know *why* it's like that when the previous 4 games in the series (at least--never played 5 or older) were free-moving 3D.

That rules it out then, and makes the lists even more similar.

[Kato]

I've seen a video on Underworld Ascendant recently and it... Didn't look like a mess. Maybe not totally finished but ready to be played. And interesting enough I might consider it. Though, I have no idea what the Kickstarter promised.

I feel like just looking on steam for fps fantasy games should give you a decent list of candidates but I can't think of a personal recommendation right away.

[Winthur]

Might and Magic X is actually a grid-based game like Legend of Grimrock, and he already ruled those out. I honestly don't know *why* it's like that when the previous 4 games in the series (at least--never played 5 or older) were free-moving 3D.

I played the 5 or older games (which I heartily recommend, at least 3-5) and they're generally better than MMX at what they strive to do, though MMX isn't too bad. I'm going to assume that they wanted to make a cheap game in Unity assets and market it towards the oldschool player, and figuring out 3D movement was somehow difficult or whatever.

OP, go play Dark Messiah of Might & Magic.

[Olinser]

The Lands of Lore 3 that I've played and finished earlier this year was neither bug-ridden nor unfinished.
It was a fine game in its certainly unique way. I found it not particularly better or worse then LoL1 or LoL2. I've enjoyed all three and liked the fact that they were so different from each other.

You weren't paying attention then, or were playing one of the fan-fixed versions. On the initial release you straight up couldn't remove spells from the spellbook (this was later patched so a right click removed them but initially it was 100% possible to not be able to use higher level spells because you'd already filled all the slots with duplicates for different situation casting), multiple later worlds had NO story or NPCs, you just had an opening cutscene then are wandering around aimlessly with no direction until you find the boss and the shard, the guilds were straight-up unfinished with several areas sealed off behind unopenable doors that you can actually get past to see the content that never unlocks (the thief shooting gallery, for instance), you can't actually receive higher level guild quests until you reach certain points, but you can accidentally do things to 'complete' the quest before you receive it, rendering them forever uncompleatable (wizard level 3 quest) there were bugs where your familiar would bug out and go try to retrieve something and then never come back, spells and items that constantly people around them damage non-hostile NPCs and will trigger them attacking you, and the game crashed at the drop of a hat and had a reasonable chance of invalidating a save after crashing.

Westwood actually had to release an official patch to fix the crashes and fix the Warrior and Wizard quests, and this was at the end of the 90's when you had to MANUALLY download a patch, it was that bad. And it still didn't fix a lot of the issues.

LoL2 wasn't a fantastic award-worthy game but at least it was a working finished game.

[NRSASD]

If you're looking for another Skyrim, may I suggest Enderal? It's a total conversion mod for Skyrim (with it's own installer!) that is basically an entire new Skyrim. It has a new world, new races, new class system (very similar to Skyrim's classless system, but rather different in the specifics), and a very good-if-bleak storyline. It's not the most cheerful of games, but very well written and a thoroughly enjoyable experience all round.

[Honest Tiefling]

I vaguely remember playing one of the Lands of Lore entries and killing orcs with shirts on accident. Maybe that was a different game.

I am however, interested in this Dark Messiah thingy. Can someone give me a run down on it?

[Olinser]

I vaguely remember playing one of the Lands of Lore entries and killing orcs with shirts on accident. Maybe that was a different game.

I am however, interested in this Dark Messiah thingy. Can someone give me a run down on it?

Full name is 'Dark Messiah of Might and Magic', it came out in.... 2007? Ish?

It's set in the same world as Heroes of Might and Magic 5, and is actually a continuation of the story there, with the titular Dark Messiah being the offspring of Kha-Bhaleth. It was made by the same company that made Arx Fatalis.

Critical reception was a bit mixed, fans generally liked it, it has 92% positive on Steam.

It's a first-person action RPG using the Source engine, it is an RPG but there is very little RNG in the game and in fact almost zero actual reward for killing enemies so it is extremely hard to out-level encounters, as almost all equipment and upgrades are set and will not drop from enemies, which allows it to actually be pretty tightly balanced.

[Rodin]

Isn't Dragon's Dogma third-person? The videos I see all show it with a Dark Souls/Assassin's Creed style third-person camera, and I don't recall a first person option when I gave it a try.

I just couldn't get into it, either. The quality just seemed very low. Big emphasis on Pawns, who chattered over each other with the same inane gibberish and monsters in the overworld spawning right on top of you. It just didn't seem like my cup of tea.


I've seen a video on Underworld Ascendant recently and it... Didn't look like a mess. Maybe not totally finished but ready to be played. And interesting enough I might consider it. Though, I have no idea what the Kickstarter promised.

I feel like just looking on steam for fps fantasy games should give you a decent list of candidates but I can't think of a personal recommendation right away.

I wouldn't risk it. Even after the initial rumblings from the KS backers I still almost ordered it, figuring something like the initial Darkest Dungeon review situation might be going on, with embittered KS backers that didn't get what they expected deliberately review-bombing. Having done some research and watched some videos it....doesn't look promising. The Kickstarter and the store page say you have to gain favor with factions and balance alliances, where apparently only one faction even exists. The puzzle solving is based on physics, which are janky as all hell. One of the release day streams I saw showed chains dangling from the ceiling that were just...dancing. No reason, just poor physics meaning that they jiggled uncontrollably. The graphics are glitchy, the save system doesn't work, and the AI and combat look terrible. One stream I saw had a player attacking an enemy up on a ledge - his arrows passed harmlessly through the enemy, who stared down at him doing nothing until he climbed up and combat began. In another, he stealthed behind an enemy and stabbed it repeatedly without the enemy noticing. Missions require repeatedly revisiting the same level, and each time you visit a level the entire thing resets (including puzzles!).

Maybe after a year or so of work the game could be salvegeable, but the reviews are absolutely savage at the moment and the game is unpopular enough that it dropped off the main page of Steam.


If you're looking for another Skyrim, may I suggest Enderal? It's a total conversion mod for Skyrim (with it's own installer!) that is basically an entire new Skyrim. It has a new world, new races, new class system (very similar to Skyrim's classless system, but rather different in the specifics), and a very good-if-bleak storyline. It's not the most cheerful of games, but very well written and a thoroughly enjoyable experience all round.

I had forgotten that this exists! I may give it a shot now...I forget what put me off trying it initially, but it did grab my interest at the time it was released.


Full name is 'Dark Messiah of Might and Magic', it came out in.... 2007? Ish?

It's set in the same world as Heroes of Might and Magic 5, and is actually a continuation of the story there, with the titular Dark Messiah being the offspring of Kha-Bhaleth. It was made by the same company that made Arx Fatalis.

Critical reception was a bit mixed, fans generally liked it, it has 92% positive on Steam.

It's a first-person action RPG using the Source engine, it is an RPG but there is very little RNG in the game and in fact almost zero actual reward for killing enemies so it is extremely hard to out-level encounters, as almost all equipment and upgrades are set and will not drop from enemies, which allows it to actually be pretty tightly balanced.

Do you know, I always thought the game was older than that? As in, much older? It's why I've never tried it - I thought the game was the same sort of era as the original Thief, with all the pain-in-the-ass controls the early FPS games had as they figured out how mouselook and strafing work (and the less said about Ultima Underworld's control scheme, the better).

I'll definitely give it a look, it's the sort of thing I'm looking for to be sure.

I do find it surprising that FPS Fantasy games are so rare. I had a quick Google for just "first-person fantasy RPG", and the list is...pretty much what's listed here. With a forum thread in 2011 listing off the exact same set of games that's in this thread.

Do you know, I thought this game was a lot older than 2006? I'm talking "original Thief" era here, back when games were still trying to figure out that whole "FPS" thing and had awful control schemes that were a pain in the ass to configure. Definitely one for the list.

-------

In a broader sense, I'm really surprised that the First-person Fantasy RPG is so rare. The concept is obvious and the execution has been provably demonstrated by the Elder Scrolls games. For some reason though, this genre remains almost devoid of life, despite the Indie Renaissance. It's so bad that Googling for "first-person fantasy RPG" brings up pretty much the same list as here...and a thread from 2011 bemoaning exactly what I did, that the most recent good non-Elder Scrolls game had come out years ago. In the 7 years since, we've pretty much gotten...Legend of Grimrock? And that's a 2.5D throwback to even older games.

[Olinser]

Isn't Dragon's Dogma third-person? The videos I see all show it with a Dark Souls/Assassin's Creed style third-person camera, and I don't recall a first person option when I gave it a try.

I just couldn't get into it, either. The quality just seemed very low. Big emphasis on Pawns, who chattered over each other with the same inane gibberish and monsters in the overworld spawning right on top of you. It just didn't seem like my cup of tea.



I wouldn't risk it. Even after the initial rumblings from the KS backers I still almost ordered it, figuring something like the initial Darkest Dungeon review situation might be going on, with embittered KS backers that didn't get what they expected deliberately review-bombing. Having done some research and watched some videos it....doesn't look promising. The Kickstarter and the store page say you have to gain favor with factions and balance alliances, where apparently only one faction even exists. The puzzle solving is based on physics, which are janky as all hell. One of the release day streams I saw showed chains dangling from the ceiling that were just...dancing. No reason, just poor physics meaning that they jiggled uncontrollably. The graphics are glitchy, the save system doesn't work, and the AI and combat look terrible. One stream I saw had a player attacking an enemy up on a ledge - his arrows passed harmlessly through the enemy, who stared down at him doing nothing until he climbed up and combat began. In another, he stealthed behind an enemy and stabbed it repeatedly without the enemy noticing. Missions require repeatedly revisiting the same level, and each time you visit a level the entire thing resets (including puzzles!).

Maybe after a year or so of work the game could be salvegeable, but the reviews are absolutely savage at the moment and the game is unpopular enough that it dropped off the main page of Steam.



I had forgotten that this exists! I may give it a shot now...I forget what put me off trying it initially, but it did grab my interest at the time it was released.



Do you know, I always thought the game was older than that? As in, much older? It's why I've never tried it - I thought the game was the same sort of era as the original Thief, with all the pain-in-the-ass controls the early FPS games had as they figured out how mouselook and strafing work (and the less said about Ultima Underworld's control scheme, the better).

I'll definitely give it a look, it's the sort of thing I'm looking for to be sure.

I do find it surprising that FPS Fantasy games are so rare. I had a quick Google for just "first-person fantasy RPG", and the list is...pretty much what's listed here. With a forum thread in 2011 listing off the exact same set of games that's in this thread.

Do you know, I thought this game was a lot older than 2006? I'm talking "original Thief" era here, back when games were still trying to figure out that whole "FPS" thing and had awful control schemes that were a pain in the ass to configure. Definitely one for the list.

-------

In a broader sense, I'm really surprised that the First-person Fantasy RPG is so rare. The concept is obvious and the execution has been provably demonstrated by the Elder Scrolls games. For some reason though, this genre remains almost devoid of life, despite the Indie Renaissance. It's so bad that Googling for "first-person fantasy RPG" brings up pretty much the same list as here...and a thread from 2011 bemoaning exactly what I did, that the most recent good non-Elder Scrolls game had come out years ago. In the 7 years since, we've pretty much gotten...Legend of Grimrock? And that's a 2.5D throwback to even older games.

I checked - yep it was 2006 release date.

And FPS fantasy games are super rare because by and large, the bulk of combat in a fantasy setting will be melee combat, and first person melee combat is generally extremely clunky and unfulfilling because its extremely difficult to gauge exactly where melee range is when you can't accurately gauge distances. Most first person fantasy games are grid based for exactly that reason.

When you're doing a fantasy game, 3rd person or top-down is where its at.

[factotum]

My bad on Dragon's Dogma, I forgot it was third person.

A game that's definitely first person and involves melee combat, although it's not technically fantasy, is Kingdom Come: Deliverance. Not played it myself so I don't know how well it all holds together, though.

[TaRix]

Hm. There was Hexen, but that was more of an FPS. Maybe if you squint really hard you could pretend?

[Sian]

If we disregard the Dungeon-crawling aspect, and turn down Fantasy to it's lowest setting (alternate universe) then Mount & Blade might actually be an option

[Rodin]

My bad on Dragon's Dogma, I forgot it was third person.

A game that's definitely first person and involves melee combat, although it's not technically fantasy, is Kingdom Come: Deliverance. Not played it myself so I don't know how well it all holds together, though.

It is quite fun, if a bit rough. My main complaint with it was that the world felt a bit empty, although that's much more realistic than the "dungeon full of loot every few steps" approach of Skyrim. I didn't get that far into it for pretty much that reason - it didn't scratch the itch in the right way. I should return to it though, as the plot was pretty interesting.

[Blackhawk748]

Everyone has forgotten Lichdom Battlemage. It's light on the RPG side, as your character appearance is set (though you can pick gender) and you obviously have to be a mage, but after that how you go about murdilating all the things is up to you and there's a fair amount of spell Combi schenanigans involved. I enjoyed it.

As for melee being difficult in FPS, the entire Elder Scrolls series and Kingdom come beg to differ. If the game is meant for First Person the combat is typically fine. And no, I don't know why more people don't do it.

In a less serious suggestion, Minecraft.

[Kaptin Keen]

Dark Messiah of Might and Magic

This is actually fairly excellent. I remember enjoying it immensely - helped along slightly by low expectations.

[Anteros]

If you're looking for another Skyrim, may I suggest Enderal? It's a total conversion mod for Skyrim (with it's own installer!) that is basically an entire new Skyrim. It has a new world, new races, new class system (very similar to Skyrim's classless system, but rather different in the specifics), and a very good-if-bleak storyline. It's not the most cheerful of games, but very well written and a thoroughly enjoyable experience all round.

I'll second Enderal. It's honestly quite good. Better than even Skyrim itself in my opinion. At least, as long as you don't mind the fact that the plot is basically ripped directly from Mass Effect.

[BeerMug Paladin]

I'm pretty sure it's not what you're looking for, but King's Field and King's Field 2 fit these requirements. They're not PC as far as I know, and early 3d. I enjoyed them at the time, at least. It's been a long time since I've played either one so I don't know if they hold up or not.

[Rodin]

I'm pretty sure it's not what you're looking for, but King's Field and King's Field 2 fit these requirements. They're not PC as far as I know, and early 3d. I enjoyed them at the time, at least. It's been a long time since I've played either one so I don't know if they hold up or not.

I believe they're Playstation 1, which would make playing them...difficult. I would have to try and locate my old PS2 and hope it works (and hope that it survives UK current strength) as well as trying to locate the game itself.

As a big Souls fan, I have been tempted to go try the King's Field games. On the one hand, it's where that series came from and I'd like to see the early incarnations. On the other, Demon's Souls had a lot of roughness that got ironed out in the later games. I can't imagine what the predecessors were like. Granted, they're first-person rather than third-person, but the lineage is still there.

On Enderal - does it have voice acting, and if so is the voice acting decent? I recall this being a major barrier for me with other Skyrim mods.

[Anteros]

Yes, it has voice acting. It's surprisingly good. Enderal is more like a standalone game than a mod. It's extremely polished and well done.

[factotum]

I believe they're Playstation 1, which would make playing them...difficult. I would have to try and locate my old PS2 and hope it works (and hope that it survives UK current strength) as well as trying to locate the game itself.

I'm pretty sure Playstations are all worldwide voltage compatible. Most modern low-power electronic devices are, because they use switched mode PSUs that don't really care what the input voltage is--it's only high-current devices like hairdryers or toasters that would have a problem.

[Kaptin Keen]

I'll second Enderal.

Oh. This too. Enderal is really good. Thirded.

[Rodin]

I'm pretty sure Playstations are all worldwide voltage compatible. Most modern low-power electronic devices are, because they use switched mode PSUs that don't really care what the input voltage is--it's only high-current devices like hairdryers or toasters that would have a problem.

I believe I did have to worry about some of the Nintendo stuff I brought across. The bigger concerns with the PS2 are A) Where the heck is it? and B) Does it even work still?

At any rate, finally made my decision. I looked at Enderal and they're having a Steam release sometime in the next couple months that will also contain a major DLC update + bug fixes. So, Dark Messiah it is! Enderal gets to be next, unless Smash Ultimate completely subsumes my existence.

[Anteros]

I didn't realize Enderal was getting a DLC. That's interesting. Enderal is fairly story driven though, and a lot of the charm is in exploring the world, so I'm not sure if I'll replay for it.

[Tvtyrant]

Third person fantasy games are still big in Japan, such as Breath of the Wild and Kingdom Hearts (which are just pastel dungeon crawlers at their core.) Here to, Shadows over Mordor.

I think first person has always felt kind of sloppy. A third person fantasy game has you running around at 90 miles an hour dodging mountain sized creatures and actively sword fighting. An isometric game is very tactical and control oriented, with things like cloud attacks and wall summoning being common and making a big difference.

First person has a hard time with either. Fast moving characters are disorienting, deep control options are difficult to aim properly and make it difficult to see. Sneaking is good in first person, but also in third person and even isometric does it okay.

What first person does really well is shooting, which is why games like Zelda and Batman switch to first person to shoot. A sneaky, archery focused game would make the most of the first person perspective.

So I think first person does sword fighting and wizard magic worse than other options do, and what stands out is sneaking and archery.

All of this is my opinion of course.

[Rodin]

I find first-person sword fighting draws me into the universe a lot more. It just has a lot more weight to it than third person button mashing. It also tends to have a lot more shield-based play based around block, parry, counter than the third person games which either abstract it away (shield grants HP/armor) or have them be kind of useless. Natural exception to this being the Souls series, which still tends to favor giant swords and dodging.

Started playing DMM, and I now understand why I thought the game was older than it is - the graphics look like they're from the turn of the century. I checked some screenshots of Thief: Deadly Shadows to be sure, and I'm positive - DMM looks significantly earlier than Thief: DS despite being two years newer. That's...rather surprising.

It seems reasonably decent so far, though I do have to laugh at the hyper-focus on physics interactions. I guess 2006 was still close enough to Half-Life 2's release that games were still hyped about physics engines - the store page even brags about it!

Another interesting thing is that it gives me a serious case of nostalgia despite never having played it before. I'm guessing this is because games of a certain era, etc.

[calvinn]

Might and Magic, Wizardry, Elminage, Etrian Odyssey, Class of Heroes, Labyrinth of Refrain: Coven of Dusk, Lady Sword, Stranger of Sword City

[Dienekes]

Everyone has forgotten Lichdom Battlemage. It's light on the RPG side, as your character appearance is set (though you can pick gender) and you obviously have to be a mage, but after that how you go about murdilating all the things is up to you and there's a fair amount of spell Combi schenanigans involved. I enjoyed it.

As for melee being difficult in FPS, the entire Elder Scrolls series and Kingdom come beg to differ. If the game is meant for First Person the combat is typically fine. And no, I don't know why more people don't do it.

In a less serious suggestion, Minecraft.

I have played my fair share of Elder Scrolls games. And I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone really defend the melee combat system in those games as good before. They’re pretty boring all told. The magic and archery systems tend to be much better developed. And the exploration of the setting remains the big selling point rather than exciting melee action.

As to Kingdom Come. It’s a very good game, though personally I think the streamlined 3rd Person version of the melee fight system in games like For Honor hold up better and ended up being more fun combat experiences. Even if the story and experience of KC itself is much better. For Honor’s single player is forgettable at best.

Anyway, Vermintide may be of interest. Again multiplayer focused. But each mission is more or less a dungeon delve. And the weapons feel better to use than Skyrim and the like. Though there is still that floating feeling you get with first person movement.

[EeksGames]

Has anyone mentioned Legend of Grimrock I and II? They look sweet. First one seemed a little lite on weapons and got pretty hard, but it's fun. I'm pretty sure the back story is, everyone involved is getting dropped into a dungeon as a prison sentence.

[Blackhawk748]

I have played my fair share of Elder Scrolls games. And I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone really defend the melee combat system in those games as good before. They’re pretty boring all told. The magic and archery systems tend to be much better developed. And the exploration of the setting remains the big selling point rather than exciting melee action.

As to Kingdom Come. It’s a very good game, though personally I think the streamlined 3rd Person version of the melee fight system in games like For Honor hold up better and ended up being more fun combat experiences. Even if the story and experience of KC itself is much better. For Honor’s single player is forgettable at best.

Anyway, Vermintide may be of interest. Again multiplayer focused. But each mission is more or less a dungeon delve. And the weapons feel better to use than Skyrim and the like. Though there is still that floating feeling you get with first person movement.

Ok, good may be strong, but it gets the job done. Also I play Swoard and Board near exclusively and thats rarely an exciting melee brawl in any game so maybe Im just used to it.

I'll toss a second reccomendation on Vermintide, fun games.

[factotum]

Has anyone mentioned Legend of Grimrock I and II?

No, because we read this line from the original post:

"True 3D - I say this to separate out the likes of Legend of Grimrock, which are undoubtedly fine games but are tile-based 2.5D."