Need help with Paladin Oath choice for Dungeon of the Mad Mage

[fenriswolf]

I need some help in choosing an oath for a half-elf paladin. We plan on playing the new Dungeon of the Mad Mage adventure and hope to actually see level 20. The group will have a rogue, a war cleric/wizardn (even split), a fighter (great weapon fighting), and a bard. I have never played a paladin in 5e. I'm leaning toward Oath of Ancients, Oath of Devotion, or Oath of Conquest. Any thoughts on what will be useful?

[darknite]

They're all good. I'd probably pick Oath of Ancients from a mechanical perspective for the spell damage resistance, given how much magic is soaked into Undermountain and the relative paucity of undead historically found there.

[fenriswolf]

Interesting. Are the Oath of the Ancient builds helped by a dip into any other classes (i.e. Hexblade) ? I would like to play sword & shield and be a party tank.

[Willie the Duck]

They're all good. I'd probably pick Oath of Ancients from a mechanical perspective for the spell damage resistance, given how much magic is soaked into Undermountain and the relative paucity of undead historically found there.

Are there a lot of spellcasting undead?

[fenriswolf]

I think he meant there is a historical lack of undead in Undermountain.

[darknite]

Are there a lot of spellcasting undead?

I've got the new book but in my previous forays I didn't feel like the place was all undead, all of the time, like Tomb of Annihilation can be. Doesn't mean there aren't any, or even that there aren't some powerful ones in Undermountain, though.

[darknite]

Interesting. Are the Oath of the Ancient builds helped by a dip into any other classes (i.e. Hexblade) ? I would like to play sword & shield and be a party tank.

A single level Hexblade dip is pretty sweet, though a little less so on a Paladin, IMHO. Pally's already have good weapon and armor proficiencies so all you're really doing is dipping for the Hexblade Curse, the Hex Warrior Cha-as-combat-stat and a single EZ-recharge 1st level spell slot. Still a good suite to pick up for one level MC. I've done well with Paladins dipping into Fighter (Champion) and Sorcerer (Draconic), too, for better Crits & more spell slots / useful spells (hello, Haste!).

[fenriswolf]

I plan on dipping one level into Hexblade to focus on CHA and to receive the benefits you already mentioned. Are any of the paladin subclasses more "tanky" than others? The Oath of Ancients aura against spells looks situational and dependent on how often NPC casters are present. At first I thought it worked against spellcasting abilities but upon further review, no luck.

[Ganymede]

I plan on dipping one level into Hexblade to focus on CHA and to receive the benefits you already mentioned. Are any of the paladin subclasses more "tanky" than others?

The Oath of Redemption is fairly tanky. It has abilities that let you take damage for others, resistance to damage and regeneration, and abilities that let you punish others for damaging you or your friends.

[Spiritchaser]

Conquest is absurdly tanky once you hit level 7... or level 8 if you did a 1 level hexblade dip.

Really strong field control and debuff

[Man_Over_Game]

Paladin Reference Guide:




Ancients
Conquest
Crown
Devotion
Redemption
Vengeance


Damage
1
3
1
5
1
5


Defense
5
4
3
3
2
3


Support
2
2
4
3
5
1


Utility
3
1
2
2
5
1


Control
4
5
5
2
2
5


Team Size
++
+++
+
+++
++
+


AKA
The Undying
The Controller
The Protector
The All-Star
The Face
The Slayer



A lot is going to be heavily dependent on the size of your party and what it needs.

Conquest, for instance, does very well in large teams since it can impair multiple enemies over a longer period of time, as opposed to the Crown, which is much better at protecting singled-out allies.

Devotion and Vengeance both work well as high damage dealers, but Devotion works well as a ranged combatant with support towards large parties, while Vengeance's focuses its abilities on melee and itself (which can be more beneficial in a smaller team).

[Bel-Torac]

I would say it depends on the party. You'll be facing everything in DMM. There are lots of wizards since the place is run by a wizard who has lots of apprentices.

[Speely]

Paladins are just useful in general, but I would go Ancients. A good tank is always good, and the spell damage resistance will probably come into play more often down there than most other places.

Edit: I might be biased since my group is doing this dungeon with an Ancients pally. ;)

[fenriswolf]

I wonder with the devotion paladin's Aura of Devotion granting immunity to charms would be as useful as the ancient paladin's Aura of Warding for this adventure. I haven't had a chance to play anything past level nine but I get the feeling that there are more charm effects that can absolutely wreck a party than spell caster's with damage spells. If the Aura worked for spell like abilities then it would be a no brainer. Charms/dominates/etc can be huge problems. Straight up immunity is solid and works for spells and abilities.

[Willie the Duck]

Might a Dexadin be useful for the dungeon-crawling (and thus perhaps enjoying stealth)?

[fenriswolf]

We already started the game. I went Half-Elf with S:15 D:10 C:16 I:8 W:8 CH:17. Too late for Dex based paladin but thanks for the suggestion.

[Willie the Duck]

We already started the game. I went Half-Elf with S:15 D:10 C:16 I:8 W:8 CH:17. Too late for Dex based paladin but thanks for the suggestion.

What is he doing for his ranged option?

[fenriswolf]

Probably a one level dip to Hexblade for Eldritch Blast in addition to the standard benefits of CHA focus.

If I delay the dip, I can pick up some javelins or hand axes.

[dgnslyr]

Maybe consider picking up Magic Initiate to shore up some of your weaknesses? From Wizard, you have access to pretty useful spells:

You get your pick of one or both of the Blade cantrips, which are a good alternative to basic attacks, or Toll the Dead for a ranged option. Either way, cantrip scaling means they'll always be relevant, at no investment of class levels.

For your spell, you can take Find Familiar, which gives pure utility that doesn't care about scaling or casts-per-day, and your friendly familiar's Help action lets you always attack with Advantage.

As appealing as the Hexblade dip can seem, I'm not really a huge fan; the benefits are minor but opportunity cost is significant. It's better for a Bard that's lacking in close quarters options, but a Paladin already has those in spades. If you want more magical gas for your smites, you could consider going into Sorcerer for more spells? Although in that case you'll be less of a tank and more of a striker. Besides just more and bigger smites, it also gives Cantrip access, utility spells, and better burst damage, if you Quicken Hold Person into a guaranteed crit-smite, for example.

Straight Ancients Paladin is still a strong frontline tank, but Redemption is another tank option, and its extended spell list includes Hold Person; Vengeance and Conquest also have access, for example.

[fenriswolf]

The one level of Hexblade would allow me to focus on one ability score (CHA) and forgo any increases in STR which opens the build to optional feats. I would take Elven Accuracy for the first ASI and CHA as the second ASI. By level 8 or level 9 with a one level dip in Hexblade, CHA is maxed to 20 which provides +5 save bonuses to the Aura of Protection as well as +5 to attack/damage/spell save DC. The Hexblade's Curse synergizes well with the build on a short timer and the single level gives a short timer Smite slot. The cantrips I'm looking at are Eldritch Blast for a ranged attack and Booming Blade. BB will not be effective while using a shield until I get the Warcaster feat but it works on character level, not class level, so it scales really well in the latter levels. The same goes for the Shield spell. Need to have Warcaster for that.

4: Elven Accuracy (+1 CHA)
8: CHA
12: Warcaster
16: ?
19: ?

[Edgerunner]

A single level Hexblade dip is pretty sweet, though a little less so on a Paladin, IMHO. Pally's already have good weapon and armor proficiencies so all you're really doing is dipping for the Hexblade Curse, the Hex Warrior Cha-as-combat-stat and a single EZ-recharge 1st level spell slot. Still a good suite to pick up for one level MC. I've done well with Paladins dipping into Fighter (Champion) and Sorcerer (Draconic), too, for better Crits & more spell slots / useful spells (hello, Haste!).

I am doing the Conquest Pali with a 1 lvL dip into Hexblade @ LvL 12 ATM.

My group Loves me. By maximizing Chr and using it as the Attack Stat it does nothing but Help the group.
+5 Aura to all Saves is Huge down in the melee trenches and I can't wait to get that out to 30'. Be aware that creatures Immune to Fear are an issue and you need to be prepared for it.

[Crl1981]

If your allowed to use racial variants take half-high elf, and take booming blade or greenflame blade as cantrips. Basically they are smites in cantrip form.

[fenriswolf]

Not a bad idea about the racial cantrip but I don't want to give up the flexible skill selection from the half-elf race, specifically Perception. Right now I'm trying to decide between Oath of the Ancients and the Oath of Devotion. Both seem pretty well suited for the tank role.

[Willie the Duck]

BB will not be effective while using a shield until I get the Warcaster feat but it works on character level, not class level, so it scales really well in the latter levels. The same goes for the Shield spell. Need to have Warcaster for that.
4: Elven Accuracy (+1 CHA)
8: CHA
12: Warcaster

I feel that, unless you are getting warcaster exclusively for BB, or because that's when you get the spells you want to use your concentration on, warcaster really should come more early in this lineup. While smites are not a bad use of your spell slots, it is really nice to actually be able to use your spells when you want to (without dropping your sword). Particularly since you went to the trouble of picking up a level of warlock (which I understand you did for the MAD reduction, but the ranged spell attack is also nice).

[fenriswolf]

Do you suggest taking Warcaster as the level 4 ASI and postponing the CHA bumps until later levels?

[Willie the Duck]

If you are going to be wielding one-handed weapon and shield, yes. A charisma bump lets you do something you were already doing slightly better. War Caster actively opens up new things for you to do (cast spells in the middle of combat, outside of extremely constrained situations).

[jdolch]

My personal Opinion is that every Paladin benefits from going Sorcerer after level 6(or 7 depending on the Oath). The Paladin class is very front-loaded. It starts out very strong and then tapers of into mediocrity. Whereas switching to Sorcerer works like a Turbo-Loader in a car. You have a small delay immediately after switching and then the Turbo kicks in and shoots the build through the roof.

In your Situation I would advise mildly against going Hexblade. Your stats STR(15), CHA(17) become 16 and 18 after the next ASI. There is not that much difference, since you didn't actually dump STR and the S&B Sorcadin also doesn't really need that much STR. So while not wasted, it is also not super strong to go Hexwarrior.

And yes, you will need Warcaster at level 4.

How did you end up with your two prime stats being uneven ?

[fenriswolf]

My personal Opinion is that every Paladin benefits from going Sorcerer after level 6(or 7 depending on the Oath). The Paladin class is very front-loaded. It starts out very strong and then tapers of into mediocrity. Whereas switching to Sorcerer works like a Turbo-Loader in a car. You have a small delay immediately after switching and then the Turbo kicks in and shoots the build through the roof.

In your Situation I would advise mildly against going Hexblade. Your stats STR(15), CHA(17) become 16 and 18 after the next ASI. There is not that much difference, since you didn't actually dump STR and the S&B Sorcadin also doesn't really need that much STR. So while not wasted, it is also not super strong to go Hexwarrior.

And yes, you will need Warcaster at level 4.

How did you end up with your two prime stats being uneven ?

Standard 27 point buy

STR: 14
DEX: 10
CON: 15
INT: 8
WIS: 8
CHA: 15

Half-elf +2 CHA/+1 STR/+1 CON

STR: 15
DEX: 10
CON: 16
INT: 8
WIS: 8
CHA: 17

[jdolch]

Ok. I would've made them both an even 16, but it's not like it's catastrophic or anything.

[fenriswolf]

Ok. I would've made them both an even 16, but it's not like it's catastrophic or anything.

I was banking on taking Hexblade so I only needed a STR of 15. That allowed the Elven Accuracy feat to bump CHA up to 18.

[sithlordnergal]

Personally I would go Oath of the Ancients: 8 / Sorcerer: 12. Grab Booming Blade, Chill Touch, Firebolt, and Shield, along with War Caster. Then sit back and laugh at the pitiful attempts casters make to hurt you.

[Bel-Torac]

I prefer resilience con over warcaster. Once you get your aura, your saving throws for con will put you over 10. My paladins con save is +11 at level 11 with 16 cha and prof bonus.

[fenriswolf]

I think the primary distinction between Resilient (CON) and War Caster is for a sword and shield character granting:

"You can perform the somatic components of spells even when you have weapons or a shield in one or both hands."

[sithlordnergal]

Well, you generally want War Caster over Resilience Con for a Soradin since War Caster lets you ignore Somatic components for a spell, meaning you can cast Shield while holding a shield and a weapon, and it lets you use cantrips for Opportunity Attacks, which is great for Booming Blade

[Nhorianscum]

I need some help in choosing an oath for a half-elf paladin. We plan on playing the new Dungeon of the Mad Mage adventure and hope to actually see level 20. The group will have a rogue, a war cleric/wizardn (even split), a fighter (great weapon fighting), and a bard. I have never played a paladin in 5e. I'm leaning toward Oath of Ancients, Oath of Devotion, or Oath of Conquest. Any thoughts on what will be useful?

If your DM allows UA show your wizard/cleric the theruge archetype.

If you are going to 20 straight paladin is absolutely better than paladin 19/hex1 and competes with the variousdin multi's.

-------------------------------------

Ancients or Redemption are my top picks for DMM. Go to paladin 9 for circle of protection minumum. Once you hit this point decide if IDS and capstone are more appealing than (insert bladelock or sorc) 11.

I'm ignoring hexblade SAD. It's a trade of one feat for a lower athletics score on a plate dude and with drop tables being what they are getting a str booster is borderline guaranteed (there is one in every rarity, except for the rarity with 2 str boosters). If none drop then bless carries to tome pact for the same boost on the best one handers in the game regardless.

----------------------

Personally I'd go...

Full Ancients, spear/staff and shield PAM build. No multi. 16/18, PAM, Mounted, 16/20, 18/20 or a feat.

Fishing for a belt, guantlets, whatever here, bless makes the wait tolerable. Greater find steed is still busted indoors.

Alternate Lock multi. Ancients 9/Undying 11 (tome or chain) 16/18, PAM, Warcaster, 16/20.

(Yup that's an undying lock alright)

Straight progression. Undying may seem silly but, the level 1 ability with Ancients 7 was some of the most fun I've ever had in ToA. Same schtic applys here. The other draw here is short rest death ward and this dude is using a stick so sure, cha SAD is an option. Blade pact offers nothing here so if a booster drops chain is open for an even better familiar. 11/9 is an option for IDS but 3-4 extra 5ths daily and a 6th are just juicy.

[Benny89]

Depends on few thing:

1. You are solo damage dealer AND tank in party: go Oath of Vengeance. You can mad damage, best imo oath spells from all paladins, you have extra attacks, extra movements and Advantage on call on short rest vs strong enemy. Works best with PAM and GWM. Here I would MAYBE consider 1 level dip for Hexblade since 20 level capstone for Vengeance is not that super important but you can lock entire area with it for 1 hour so it's also not bad but curse + Vow of Enmity can be devastating. You can still tank using Spear + Shield + Shield of Faith + 2 AC so at 2 level you will have 20 AC in important fight + later you have Haste + as all paldins you get Aura. All Paladins are tanky but Vengeance is crazy dps pally.

2. If you are solo tank with some great dps on your side already (like Zealot Barbarian, Assassin, PAM or Hand Xbow Fighter etc.): Ancient or Conquest. First one is not that good in fight compare to Vengeance but resistance to magic is superb for a front line tank. Conquest is also great tank but he has mad CC over group of enemies (the downside of Paladins) so he is really good at being at front.

3. If you want to be "classic" Paladin - Devotion or Redemtion. They don't have anything that good apart from buff to weapon but it's not as good as other Oaths powers.

Also Vengance and Conquet allow for more "evil" Paladin so they also have fluff.

If your DM allow UA, few other tips:

1. Tunnel Fighter + Relentless Avenger + PAM is mad combo making Vengeance Paladin best melee fighter in game vs group of enemies. Makes him both best at fights vs single though enemies and hordes.

2. Oathbreaker Paladin - probably strongest damage dealer of all Paladins, even Vengeance but you are pretty much old Blackguard so it doesn't work in 99% of parties.

3. Mixing 3 levels of Totem barbarian with 7 levels of Ancient Paladin will give you a mad tank that is resistant to spells and to any sort of damage apart from psychic. You can Rage when you need to "turn on full tank mode". Fun build. Maybe not most optimized because you lose 3 levels of a caster and capstone but the result is really nice especially since you still have that Aura.