-Withdrawn- (Can be deleted)

[jdolch]

Build is withdrawn.

[Ganymede]

I almost reflexively flagged this as Sorcerer King spam.

[nickl_2000]

I almost reflexively flagged this as Sorcerer King spam.

You were not the only one. I came in here specifically to do that! Will actually look at the post and comment when I have more time to read it over.

[jdolch]

Thanks for the Warning. I changed the Title.

[Wildarm]

Issues I can spot:

- You're taking a movement penalty for Full Plate /w 13 STR
- You'll need to take 3 levels of Warlock in order to use a 2 Handed weapon with Charisma

[jdolch]

Damn, you're right. I totally missed that.

[qube]

What's his point? Once you start using Darkness+Eyes of the Dark, you set yourself up to fail.
You can't use it in enclosed area's, as you affect your allies as well.
(in case you don't know - giving yourself a buf for the price of debuffing the rest of the party = fail)
you can't use it in open areas. You could ... but you're forced to attack the monsters that say out of the darkness (if they don't, ref point 1) with range.
(in this case ... your 6 levels paladin are extremely reduced in benefit = fail)

-----

... oh, and FWI: warlock 1 doesn't get invocations. No Eyes of the Dark to begin with

[jdolch]

What's his point?
His Point is that I think it's a cool Character Concept.


You can't use it in enclosed area's, as you affect your allies as well.
(in case you don't know - giving yourself a buf for the price of debuffing the rest of the party = fail)
Ok, first of all, you don't "have to use" Darkness at all. It's just one tool in a toolbox. This character has lots and lots of other options. Plus you can use it - you just have to stay far enough away from the Party OR cast the darkness so that it doesn't constrict them. (You don't HAVE to cast it on yourself, it's not an Aura.)


you can't use it in open areas. You could ... but you're forced to attack the monsters that say out of the darkness (if they don't, ref point 1) with range.
(in this case ... your 6 levels paladin are extremely reduced in benefit = fail)
So? As a melee fighter you always will have to close on your enemies. And while the Aura of Protection is nice for the party, i can foresee lots of situations where It's ok if its just me who gets the benefit. Depends on the tactical situation. Again: It's one tool among many.


... oh, and FWI: warlock 1 doesn't get invocations. No Eyes of the Dark to begin with
That doesn't come from the Warlock. It's from the sorcerous origin.

[Ganymede]

You forgot to list his traits, ideal, bond, and flaw.

[qube]

Plus you can use it - you just have to stay far enough away from the Party OR cast the darkness so that it doesn't constrict them
...
As a melee fighter you always will have to close on your enemies. So ... what you're saying that it is in fact a good tool, when
you're relatively far from your party
the enemy is far from the party (as you went tem near you)
be in a location where your 15ft radius darkness doesn't block line of sight from your party members to the monsters (so ... err ... behind the enemies? or way on the flanks)
the enemy for some mysterious reason choses to fight you and not run up to the rest of the party (as, that would break number 2; yet number 3 directly works against this)
... I'm not convinced

(You don't HAVE to cast it on yourself, it's not an Aura.I know that. Yet that doesn't change the situation. It's neih impossible to cast one that
you reap significant benefit of
your party doesn't have a problem with it
the enemy can just ignore

Darkness+ the ability to see in darkness is a good combo ... if you're on your own. But in D&D there's a party; en when you take them into account ... just no. Even spells like Feary fire or Hold person easily beat that - dispite having a save.

[ChildofLuthic]

You forgot to list his traits, ideal, bond, and flaw.

Is that really a necessary part of a build? Like, the oath tenets are important because they're set in stone with your mechanical choices, but the ideal, bond and flaw aren't.

[Wildarm]

Another dichotomy you're going to have to deal with if you wish to use the darkness trick is being a conquest paladin. Conquest is a fear based build and any darkness is going to cancel most fear effects since the enemies no longer see you. Probably better picking a different Oath in that case. Darkness causes difficulty with your aura as well. Better to stick to a 2 Level Pally dip instead IMO if darkness is a key tool for you to land hits(and smites)

[Ganymede]

Is that really a necessary part of a build? Like, the oath tenets are important because they're set in stone with your mechanical choices, but the ideal, bond and flaw aren't.

The OP put in a "thematics" section in his or her post. Traits, ideal, bond, and flaw should really be in that section; as it is, it is pretty sparse at two sentences.

[ChildofLuthic]

The OP put in a "thematics" section in his or her post. Traits, ideal, bond, and flaw should really be in that section; as it is, it is pretty sparse at two sentences.

Oh wow, I totally didn't even see that. Lol am I really such a bad RP-er that theme information is literally invisible to me?

[LudicSavant]

The trouble with relying on the Darkness spell isn’t so much that it hinders your own party (you can build a party that gets around that), it’s that it’s incredibly easy to counter with a cheap trinket or a spell you cast 40 sessions ago, even after you built the party around your gimmick.

It’s pretty standard for optimized parties (particularly those with a Cleric) to immunize themselves by around level 5, thanks to the fact that the light from upcast Continual Flame (you know, that spell people use to light city streets in Eberron and make lanterns for adventurers) puts out Darkness. And lasts forever.

Some inexperienced groups don’t know this, but once they do Darkness becomes a lot less useful against intelligent foes, especially if it’s a known gimmick for your character (since villains can and should plot against you). Just as one might cast fire resistance against a known red dragon sorcerer, except worse because it’s limitless duration immunity and conferred by a common tool people just might happen to have on them anyways.

Still great against unintelligent or unprepared foes though.

[jdolch]

I think you're confusing a thematic gimmick that may have some solid situational usefulness with a lynchpin of a build. I didn't put Darkness in there to One-Trick-Pony-Cheese the game, but because I think it's thematically super cool. I think it just adds to the theme of the conquest Paladin as an entity that spreads fear if he seems "no-longer-human" (see Table in the Shadowsorcerer Description) and can snuff out light. Being unable to see is a primal fear and if you combine that with the other things, it just seems cool to me in a "Curse of Strahd" kinda way.

I think you may have seen too many One-Trick-Pony-Cheese builds on here to appreciate how this is not an mechanically essential part of this Build?


Some inexperienced groups don’t know this, but once they do Darkness becomes a lot less useful against intelligent foes, especially if it’s a known gimmick for your character (since villains can and should plot against you).

All i am hearing here is that "The bad guys literally tell each other horror stories about you around the campfire and actively try to Counter the Boogeyman". Sorry, but that's not a problem, that is awesome!

"Easy to counter by other Spells" becomes "Lets all huddle around Wilfred and protect him, because if Wilfred goes down, we are all Dead." Even them just thinking that, is exactly what Fear is about.

[LudicSavant]

All i am hearing here is that "The bad guys literally tell each other horror stories about you around the campfire and actively try to Counter the Boogeyman". Sorry, but that's not a problem, that is awesome!

"Easy to counter by other Spells" becomes "Lets all huddle around Wilfred and protect him, because if Wilfred goes down, we are all Dead." Even them just thinking that, is exactly what Fear is about.

The examples I've seen in practice aren't so much "people are terrified of the Devil-Eyed Warlock" so much as they're... well...

"People habitually carry around an upcast Continual Flame trinket with them, the DM laughs evilly as he brings in his Devil-Eyed Warlock boss fight he thinks is going to be hard, and then is surprised when the PCs laugh because they cast Continual Flame as an afterthought 20 sessions ago, and the Warlock doesn't realize this until he's put himself in melee range."

This is different from the case of people being terrified of a pyromancer, because getting fire resistance actually takes some serious resource investment. Continual Flame just... doesn't. It's something adventurers can put in their kit as an afterthought, kind of like they carry around marbles and 10 foot poles and all that stuff.

But hey, if it works for you, more power to ya I guess.

[Asmotherion]

I almost reflexively flagged this as Sorcerer King spam.
Same here. And the Warning didn't really help. It's almost like those comercials that tell you "this works 100% of the time". The "Reign of Terror" is the most red flag part really.

[awa]

its obviously not that particular trolls work, so its almost like click bait attracting people to the post.

[jdolch]

Ok, I give up!

I started this, being genuinely exited about the build and hoping it would lead to some positive discussion, but apparently that isn't possible.

After watching this train wreck unfold in slow motion, instead of fixing the build, I decided not to put any more work into this and withdraw the whole thing instead.

Thank you, @Wildarm, for actually beeing helpful.

If a Moderator happens to come by here, this can be deleted or closed as far as i am concerned. Thank you.