Trickery Domain: As bad as it seems?

[Trustypeaches]

I love the theming of the Trickery Domain for clerics, as a lot of my characters are impish pranksters, shameless charlatans, and secretive spies and agents.

However, the Domain itself is possibly one of the worst designed subclasses in the game, and just fails on both a thematic and mechanical level in my opinion.


At level 1, all the Trickery cleric gets is Blessing of the Trickster, which isn’t bad but is definitely extremely little compared to other domains. They get no weapon or armor proficiencies, no cantrips (Where. Is. Minor. Illusion!?!), and no bonus skill proficiencies (a choice of Deception, Sleight of Hand, or Stealth wouldn’t have gone amiss). They don't even get a flavorful ribbon feature.


Now lets talk about Channel Divinity: Invoke Duplicity

At the cost of your concentration, Invoke Duplicity lets you cast spells from a different point, mostly notable for casting Touch Spells safely, which can admittedly be useful (Bestow Curse, Inflict Wounds, Cure Wounds, etc) . Then again, this isn't much more utility than a basic familiar, except its slow and requires the caster's bonus actions to move. Oh, and it can't perform the Help action in combat to grant allies advantage. Oh, and again, it COSTS YOUR CONCENTRATION.
Speaking of granting advantage, Invoke Duplicity also grants advantage to the cleric, and ONLY the Cleric when BOTH they and the illusion are within 5 feet of a target. So that doesn't grant advantage to any spell with an attack roll besides Inflict Wounds, but it must be intended for melee, right? Wait, never mind, Trickery doesn’t get Martial Weapons or Heavy Armor proficiencies.
Regarding the "unlisted' uses of Invoke Duplicity (confusing enemies, absorbing attacks, etc.), this is extremely DM dependant given how little info the feature gives you. See below (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23509843&postcount=24) for a more detailed breakdown


Their Channel Divinity: Cloak of Shadows is insultingly bad. Invisibility for ONE turn for the cost of an action! Make this a bonus action you can use up to WIS modifier times per day or something, don’t make it compete with Invoke Duplicity


They get Divine Strike (for POISON, no less) but again don’t get either Martial Weapon or Heavy Armor proficiencies, like every other Domain that gets this melee class feature. This had to be an oversight right?

The design is just all over the place: they are a "melee" cleric domain with no melee proficiencies. Some of their features are purely about team support like Blessing of the Trickster, but your Invoke Duplicity offers less utility to your allies than a Familiar, even after you can create 4 of them at once. Despite all this however, my biggest issue is that it fails to deliver on the theming: Many of their features only offer bonus to stealth such as Blessing of the Trickster and Cloak of Shadows. The only benefits they get for mind-manipulation, deceptions, and the social pillar of gameplay in general are some Domain spells (Charm Person / Modify Memory). The only Illusion abilities they get are Mirror Image and their Invoke Duplicity, which would sting less if Clerics didn't only have ONE Illusion spell otherwise (silence).

So yeah, despite easily being my favorite domain thematically, Trickery is just… terrible. Is there something I'm missing here? Or any house rules groups have implemented to deal with the domain's flaws?

EDIT: I posted a homebrew revision of the domain in the homebrew forum if anyone was interested.

Link to Forum post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?574735-Trickery-Domain-Revision&p=23530126#post23530126)

Link straight to Homebrewery (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Byc0LK60Q)

[Specter]

I'd change the damage type to psychic, which is better and also makes more sense.

And they should get at least a rapier, for heaven's sake.

[Throne12]

Dude it in the name trickery. Your not a rogue or a assassin.

[Snowbluff]

Trickery Domain is the worst domain. I agree on all points and I fight fiercely to avoid noobs being trapped by it.

[Trustypeaches]

Dude it in the name trickery. Your not a rogue or a assassin.
Dude, I wish.

As it stands, I'd say the domain (unfortunately) leans more to roguey-stealthy stuff with all their features outside Invoke Duplicity revolving around stealth or melee. Even one of Invoke Duplicity's main benefits is granting the cleric advantage on melee-range attacks.

I would LOVE for more of their abilities to be focused on deceptions and tricks, mental manipulations, illusions, and other "Trickster" qualities.

[Digimike]

Blessing of the Trickster is simply a decent buff. Your party rogue may love you for it.

Duplicity is pretty nice, especially for delivering touch spells. It's free advantage or free mele without having to mele.

Cloak of Shadows is kind of bad but decent as an, "in a pinch", escape mechanism. Having a good escape plan is important in any encounter when it goes south.

Divine strike could be better but hey, it's free damage. As a cleric you have plenty of options to deal with undead who'd be immune to poison.

I'll say this, the domain spells are Amazingly Good!.

Mirror Image, Blink, Dimension Door, and Polymorph are EXTREMELY good. If you're thinking of player a "trickster" without seeing the value in this domain list...

Remember your job is a cleric is support and sometimes tanking. The trickery domain has very solid options for accomplishing those tasks. You're not a psuedo rogue, although with Criminal or Urchin background you could pull it off to a degree, but you're not going to be a divine Arcane Trickster. You're a cleric. You have good armor, shields, and some of the best buff spells in the game. This domain makes that strength stronger.

[ImproperJustice]

Multi-class it with a Kensei Monk (Staff) and you have your own version of the Monkey King.

[Unoriginal]

Trickery Domain doesn't seem bad to me. Your opening question is a bit in the "have you stopped stealing from your boss yet?" category of rhetoric.

Sure, they don't get more weapons or armors. But they're still Clerics, they get decent weapons and armors already.

Invoke Duplicity let you do little things like misdirect enemies and make them waste actions because they don't know who's the real one between you and the duplicate. Which is an enormous advantage.

What you call "being all over the place" is called "versatility". People usually wax lyrical about how some characters can do things on many different situation. As a Trickery Cleric, you can fight, heal, and cause an inordinate ammount of confusion on the battlefield as well as in social situation.

[Trustypeaches]

Blessing of the Trickster is simply a decent buff. Your party rogue may love you for it.It's fine in itself, but it's bad that this is ALL the Trickster Domain gets at 1st level.

Other domains get a feature + some armor, weapon, or skill proficiencies or a nice cantrips (Light, Arcana, Grave, Death, Nature).

Duplicity is pretty nice, especially for delivering touch spells. It's free advantage or free mele without having to mele.Costing your Concentration is anything but free.

Also to benefit from the advantage both you and the illusion need to be in melee range of the target, which means the cleric getting up close and personal (without heavy armor) and possibly spending bonus action(s) to get their illusion into range.

Then keep in mind that (without multiclassing) the ONLY actions Clerics have with an attack roll that advantage would benefit are Inflict Wounds, Guiding Bolt (where advantage is canceled out by melee range), and melee weapon attacks, and Tricksters don't get martial weapon or heavy armor proficiency.


Divine strike could be better but hey, it's free damage. As a cleric you have plenty of options to deal with undead who'd be immune to poison.It's "free damage" if you elect to either go into melee range or give up your shield AC to use a Light Crossbow, all to do less damage than Toll the Dead because you don't get Martial Weapon proficiencies.

[NecroDancer]

I’d personally change the Divine Strike to psychic damage, give proficiency in a rapier or scimitar, and allow for Blessing of the Trickster to effect yourself. The other abilities are fine and the spell list is one of the best.

[Snowbluff]

Duplicity is pretty nice, especially for delivering touch spells. It's free advantage or free mele without having to mele.
...

Mirror Image, Blink, Dimension Door, and Polymorph are EXTREMELY good. If you're thinking of player a "trickster" without seeing the value in this domain list...

Remember your job is a cleric is support and sometimes tanking. The trickery domain has very solid options for accomplishing those tasks. You're not a psuedo rogue, although with Criminal or Urchin background you could pull it off to a degree, but you're not going to be a divine Arcane Trickster. You're a cleric. You have good armor, shields, and some of the best buff spells in the game. This domain makes that strength stronger.

What touch spells are you using that aren't concentration?
How are you using your duplicity ability and polymorph in the same combat?
How are you support when both of those use concentration?

[Unoriginal]

What touch spells are you using that aren't concentration?

Healing spells?

You know, Cleric...

[Snowbluff]

Healing spells?

You know, Cleric...

Oh I see now.
https://i.imgflip.com/xhss9.jpg

Healing isn't really that useful. The best healing spells are either ones that do more than the basic ones can, which you get at higher level, healing spirit which you don't get, and healing word which isn't touch.

[Deathtongue]

Healing spells?

You know, Cleric...Do clerics even have touch-range healing spells other than Cure Wounds?

[Unoriginal]

Healing isn't really that useful

Say that when your tank is downed by the boss and you don't have a safe way to approach.

[Trustypeaches]

Sure, they don't get more weapons or armors. But they're still Clerics, they get decent weapons and armors already.They get simple weapons, which are okay for Strength builds but Trickery Clerics still want dex since they're limited to Medium Armor.

Trickery is the only domain that gets Divine Strike, a weapon feature, that doesn't get a bonus armor or weapon proficiency.


Invoke Duplicity let you do little things like misdirect enemies and make them waste actions because they don't know who's the real one between you and the duplicate. Which is an enormous advantage.If your DM allows it.

I'd say this is even more up to DM interpretation than other Illusion spells, since literally all you know about the illusion is that it's "perfect" and "distracting", with no indication of what either of those mean. The only mechanical effect outlined is that it grants advantage to the cleric in melee, so anything else is up to interpretation. I wish there was a line or two a line explaining what a perfect illusion and maybe some possible impacts this might have on others behavior:
“The Illusion is indistinguishable from the Cleric, and reacts instinctively to any changes in the environment, including damaging attacks, to preserve its illusion”
“Creatures cannot determine it is an illusion and treat it as real unless they have truesight or make contact with any attack that uses an attack roll. The illusion’s AC is 20”

I agree it's something that you SHOULD be able to do, but such uses are not outlined at ALL in the writing the way illusion effects usually are.


What you call "being all over the place" is called "versatility". People usually wax lyrical about how some characters can do things on many different situation. As a Trickery Cleric, you can fight, heal, and cause an inordinate amount of confusion on the battlefield as well as in social situation.I feel like all Trickery's versatility comes from it's spell list, which is excellent. It's my favorite part of the Domain.

My complaints are all about the rest of the subclass. While I could definitely see Invoke Duplicity offering a lot more utility depending on how DM's interpret it, the remainder of the Trickery Domain features don't feel like they give me a lot of options.

Blessing of the Trickster is nice, but it's utility is niche. I'd have really liked if you could use it to grant advantage to Stealth, Deception, or Sleight of Hand to expand it's utility to more situations. Cloak of Shadow is just... awful, but it counts as an option I guess. Divine Strike lets you use weapons... badly.

But yeah, if nothing else, Trickery has a fantastic spell list of fun spells for different situations (where is major image though :0 )

[JellyPooga]

How are you using your duplicity ability and polymorph in the same combat?You don't? When one expires, use the other? There's no rule that says all abilities a character has must synergise, nor that they must be able to be used at the sake time, nor that they must all be useful in combat. You're a trickster. When did you last read about a trickster god or his followers being at the forefront of a fight, or being the most valourous or valiant of the pantheon? Or even winning a fight they've actually gotten in to, without using some kind of duplicity or, well, trick? Start thinking less about how good these abilities are in a fight and more about their uses outside of combat...that's where Trickster Clerics are supposed to shine and it's why they don't get heavy armour proficiency.

- Cloak of Shadows past a guard.
- Polymorph out of a cell.
- Dimension Door through that fourth story window.
- Invoke Duplicity to distract the merchant in conversation while you're stealing his lock-box.

You're mistaking the Trickster Cleric for a combat-focused subclass because you're focused only on their role in combat. Change your perspective and take a look with fresh eyes.

[Snowbluff]

Healing isn't really that useful. The best healing spells are... and healing word which isn't touch.


Say that when your tank is downed by the boss and you don't have a safe way to approach.

See text. Letters.


You don't? When one expires, use the other? There's no rule that says all abilities a character has must synergise, nor that they must be able to be used at the sake time,
They don't have to synergize. Of course, we could be having this conversation, if they didn't have anti-synergy. This argument is a non-starter because it relies on a non-existent hypothetical of these ability not being weak and conflicting in the first place.

[Unoriginal]

They get simple weapons, which are okay for Strength builds but Trickery Clerics still want dex since they're limited to Medium Armor.

Trickery Clerics probably require more spread out stats than one specialization, yes.



If your DM allows it.

There's unfortunately nothing in the writing for the feature than implies this is something the cleric could do, despite it making sense. Unlike other illusions, this feature includes no Investigation DC to determine if it's real, but it's unclear whether this means people automatically believe it, or automatically don't believe it. The most it says is that the illusion is "distracting".

I agree it's something that you SHOULD be able to do, but such uses are not outlined at ALL in the writing the way illusion effects usually are. [QUOTE=Trustypeaches;23509650]

Well if your DM wants to handicap you by more or less nullifying half of a class feature...

[QUOTE=Trustypeaches;23509650]
I feel like all Trickery's versatility comes from it's spell list, which is excellent. It's my favorite part of the Domain.

My complaints are all about the rest of the subclass. While I could definitely see Invoke Duplicity offering a lot more utility depending on how DM's interpret it, the remainder of the Trickery Domain features don't feel like they give me a lot of options.

Blessing of the Trickster is nice, but it's utility is niche. I'd have really liked if you could use it to grant advantage to Stealth, Deception, or Sleight of Hand to expand it's utility to more situations. Cloak of Shadow is just... awful, but it counts as an option I guess. Divine Strike lets you use weapons... badly.

But yeah, if nothing else, Trickery has a fantastic spell list of fun spells for different situations (where is major image though :0 )

See, it's already not as bad as what it seemed to you when you posted your OP.

[Aett_Thorn]

Blessing of the Trickster is also great when you need to make a group Stealth check, and you want to remove the Disadvantage on the party fighter/paladin because they’re wearing Heavy Armor.

[Spiritchaser]

As others have pointed out, the loaded spell list must be considered.

ANYTHING with pass without trace can be campaign changing and it’s not like the rest of the list is bad either.

I’d agree that apart from that spell list this isn’t great, it feels like it needs a MC to BE anything in particular.

[stoutstien]

Domain spells save the domain but agree the divine strike need a new element or just give it potent casting.
Blessings of trickster counters heavy armor steath disadvantage.
Invoked duplicate is very dm dependent.

[Mellack]

Something that nobody has directly mentioned is that invoke duplicity allows any spell to be cast as if from the illusion. That means you can use it to negate cover, or keep yourself out of the range of other effects. So it is helpful for more than just touch spells as you now have two choices of where you want your spell to originate.

[Trustypeaches]

Well if your DM wants to handicap you by more or less nullifying half of a class feature... Alright, for clarity's sake here is a copypasta of the feature.


Channel Divinity: Invoke Duplicity
Starting at 2nd level, as an action, you create a perfect illusion of yourself that lasts for 1 minute, or until you lose your concentration (as if you were concentrating on a spell). The illusion appears in an unoccupied space that you can see within 30 feet of you. As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the illusion up to 30 feet to a space you can see, but it must remain within 120 feet of you.

For the duration, you can cast spells as though you were in the illusion's space, but you must use your own senses. Additionally, when both you and your illusion are within 5 feet of a creature that can see the illusion, you have advantage on attack rolls against that creature, given how distracting the illusion is to the target.Seen here, the explicit mechanics of Invoke Duplicity are to (A) offer conditional advantage to the cleric and (B) provide a second anchor point for the cleric to cast spells from. While I agree it makes sense for a "perfect illusion" to do more and disrupt / confuse enemies, to extend the ability’s usage beyond what is explicitly written requires a huge amount of interpretation on the DM’s part. Literally all the feature tells you about the illusion is that it is “perfect” and can be “distracting”. There are no guidelines or precedents as to what either of those terms imply in terms of options and limitations of this illusion, leaving it all up to the DM to design.


Do creatures automatically believe the illusion is real?
Under what circumstances, if any, will a creature uncover the illusions nature: physical contact, an investigation check, seeing both the cleric and the illusion together?
If the latter, how do they determine who to attack or treat as real: investigation check, Wisdom save, flip a coin?
And let's say a creature does attempt to attack the illusion, does it immediately realize it’s illusory nature, or does the illusion include tactile components because it’s “perfect”?
Or does the illusion automatically shift its form as to appear as if it's avoiding attacks, preserving the illusion? Or does the Illusion have an AC the attack roll has to meet to make contact and expose the ruse?
If any of the above, does this appear natural enough that the creature still believes it is real, or is there a roll involved?
How much control does the cleric have over the illusion: do they have fine control over their appearance, movements, and free actions or is it like an advanced Programmed Illusion with simple commands?
Could you speak through the illusion?
And when it says it is a perfect illusion of the caster, does it mean a snapshot of the Cleric at the moment of its initial usage? Or does the illusion automatically change its form to match the Cleric, making it harder to distinguish them?
If the former, can the Cleric change the illusions appearance to match its own if some effect has distinguished them (a wound, a spell like faerie Fire, etc), or would they have to use another Channel Divinity?

These are just SOME of the questions you have to think about because the PHB offered virtually no guidance as to what a “perfect” illusion is or how it might impact it has on enemy behavior.

I’m glad you have (or are yourself) a DM that put in the effort to take this mess of a feature and make it something fun and thematic with lots of utility. But this is way, WAY more room for interpretation than any other illusion spell calls for. I don’t think it’s fair to attribute any limitations placed on the feature on the DM just “wanting to handicap you”

[Trustypeaches]

Honestly, I think I'd be fine with Invoke Duplicity entirely if it just didn't cost concentration.

The only reason I can imagine why they kept concentration is that they were worried about clerics using their illusion as an anchor point for Spirit Guardians or something.

[stoutstien]

Honestly, I think I'd be fine with Invoke Duplicity entirely if it just didn't cost concentration.

The only reason I can imagine why they kept concentration is that they were worried about clerics using their illusion as an anchor point for Spirit Guardians or something.
I've played with the idea of a better form of mirror image: cast a reaction and keep casting through duplicates

[Tanarii]

Nope. Trickery clerics are a great defensive and buff/debuff Cleric. They're good at what they do.

The common mistake people make with them is thinking they're supposed to be a Rogue/Cleric

[Trustypeaches]

Nope. Trickery clerics are a great defensive and buff/debuff Cleric. They're good at what they do.Yeah they have an excellent spell list.

Shame about everything else though

[jaappleton]

I'd change the damage type to psychic, which is better and also makes more sense.

And they should get at least a rapier, for heaven's sake.

1000000000% it should be Psychic damage and not Poison.

NOTHING PC-focused should be Poison based. Far too many things are Immune or Resistant to it.

[Eragon123]

In addition to a lot of people's criticisms, I also have a different interpretation of Invoke Duplicity it does not say that it uses your concentration rather that you maintain it as if you were using your concentration. That conditional to me means that you can maintain it and concentrate on another spell but taking damage or suffering something else that forces a concentration saving throw threatens both the spell and the feature.

[sulimo0310]

While I agree Trickery is the weakest domain, I don't think it makes it a weak domain by any means. The strong domain spell list has already been mentioned. But I think a lot of us might be missing the boat on invoke duplicity. The real benefit is that you can cast spells through it and they are cast from it as a point of origin. This is two fold. One it can increase the range of spells. Clerics have a ton of great spells with a 60 foot range. Being able to cast them at say, 90 feet is a definite advantage. A situational one true, but a clear advantage. But where it truly shines is when the cleric can hide somewhere before or during the fight. The cleric (assuming they can see their target) can then cast non-concentration spells with impunity from the safety of their hidey-hole that originate from the duplicate. Even if enemies discover the duplicate is an illusion that doesn't tell them where the cleric is, and it doesn't save them from the spells cast from it. Admittedly this would be much easier with minor illusion (this domain TOTALLY should have gotten this as a bonus cantrip at first level). Still for the investment of a feat (magic initiate) or multiclass in, say, Illusionist Wizard non concentration illusory cover (and nigh infinite other uses) cam be yours. It isn't perfect, but invoke duplicity can be really strong in the right hands/ situations.

[Pex]

NOTHING PC-focused should be Poison based. Far too many things are Immune or Resistant to it.

Normally I would disagree since just because a monster is in the manual doesn't mean it will be in the game. Creatures in the campaign are the only thing that matter; therefore have your fun with fire and don't resent the occasional happenstance of a creature resistant or immune so you do something else. However, the poison immune undead are common enough, even mere zombies and skeletons, to have your character based on the damage type hurts the party let alone yourself. It's ok to have some poison damage stuff but not as your main feature.

[Deathtongue]

Nope. Trickery clerics are a great defensive and buff/debuff Cleric. They're good at what they do.

The common mistake people make with them is thinking they're supposed to be a Rogue/ClericThe thing is, the stuff they're good at is counter-intuitive to the class as presented. They're like sorcerers; if you play sorcerers the obvious way -- as a platform for blasting -- they're weak. If you play them the counter-intuitive way, as someone who mostly focuses on buffs and mezzes (with Twin, Silent, Heighten, and Careful spell) they're great.

Similarly, a Trickery Cleric works best if you completely ignore the whole trickery aspect of the character and focus on its spell list for (self-)buffing purposes. The powergamer in me thinks the class is okay (if relatively underpowered) but I can definitely see why roleplayers would be dissatisfied.

Like, the illusionist wizard is a trickster. They can do things with illusions that catch people off guard, even with people familiar with illusions. The arcane trickster is also a trickster, because it has expertise/reliable talent along with access to a few tricks with Mage Hand and spells in general that makes rogues really evil. The Trickery domain cleric? Is not.

[No brains]

Trickery cleric has its problems, but it isn't bad. If they could dominate in a straight fight, they wouldn't need to be tricksy.

This domain has bonuses that apply outside the combat pillar of D&D. If you use your tools correctly in the exploration and interaction segments, you can change when you need to fight if at all.

Though TBH 'Perfect illusion' is a vague enough phrase that you need to work with your DM to clear up.

[stoutstien]

Though TBH 'Perfect illusion' is a vague enough phrase that you need to work with your DM to clear up.

That is going to a big problem anytime you run into it in core mechanics. They could have dropped a side text box with examples at least to help difine perfect illusion.

[MaxWilson]

Though TBH 'Perfect illusion' is a vague enough phrase that you need to work with your DM to clear up.

Obviously it means that the illusion has 18s in every stat and Max HP.

;)

[Deathtongue]

This domain has bonuses that apply outside the combat pillar of D&D. If you use your tools correctly in the exploration and interaction segments, you can change when you need to fight if at all.The Trickery Cleric's tools are bad or anti-synergistic with the cleric chassis for the interaction segment, though. The Knowledge cleric straight-up beats them at this game, with the Trickery Cleric feebly going 'but I can cast disguise self and make a short-ranged illusion of myself for a minute. Oh, and I can cast two social interaction spells that can only be used with violence, that's good, right?'

[Nhorianscum]

Nope. Trickery clerics are a great defensive and buff/debuff Cleric. They're good at what they do.

The common mistake people make with them is thinking they're supposed to be a Rogue/Cleric

That said trickery does also make for a solid multiclass rouge/cleric.

[Isaire]

I found my wood elf trickery cleric played very well. +3 to dex, stealth proficiency, wood elf hiding bonus when outside, could stop the party fighter clanking around with stealth disadvantage (party of 3), and DM would generally require an enemy to attempt to hit the "perfect duplicate" figure once to determine that it is an illusion. So that also helped at lower levels. At higher levels, spirit guardians, with invisibility for one turn if that attracted attention the turn after, were nice.

In role playing situations, cloak of shadows for short invisibility + blink led to hilarious heist hijinks. But that can be campaign dependent..


Edit: Oh, and wood elf helped with longbow proficiency too initially, until sacred flame became better..

[lunaticfringe]

In addition to a lot of people's criticisms, I also have a different interpretation of Invoke Duplicity it does not say that it uses your concentration rather that you maintain it as if you were using your concentration. That conditional to me means that you can maintain it and concentrate on another spell but taking damage or suffering something else that forces a concentration saving throw threatens both the spell and the feature.

That's how we played it. Also ended up changing moving the Duplicate to a Reaction.

[NaughtyTiger]

I tend to be fairly strict as a DM, so I did not let the Invoke Duplicity do the "unlisted' uses of Invoke Duplicity (pack tactics, confusing enemies, absorbing attacks, etc.).
we fought about that for a while...

However, it was still a great class at the table.

Str Fighter in Plate could reliable pass stealth checks

Invoke Duplicity let the cleric cast from 2 places on the battlefield.
It adds 30-120 ft range on every spell. (spiritual weapon)
Since it is an illusion, though, he can position it 30ft up and muck with flying objects and ignore cover.

It isn't the strongest class, but it was a fun class at the table.

[some guy]

While I don't think the Trickery domain is bad (cleric is solid on it's own and it has nice domain spells), I do think 1 or 2 extra skills would not hurt (a trickery cleric without spell slots or channel divinity is not actually better in tricking anyone when in comparison with someone who is not a vessel of a trickster god. I can imagine that not being fun).

[Pex]

That is going to a big problem anytime you run into it in core mechanics. They could have dropped a side text box with examples at least to help difine perfect illusion.

But that would go against their policy of rulings not rules. They don't believe in giving examples to help adjudicate things.

[Tanarii]

Yeah they have an excellent spell list.

Shame about everything else thoughI was also referring to their domain abilities. Excellent defensive features, especially Invoke Duplicity and the abilit to turn Invisible.



Similarly, a Trickery Cleric works best if you completely ignore the whole trickery aspect of the character and focus on its spell list for (self-)buffing purposes.

The trickery aspect is exactly where they excel at defensiveness, buffing, and debuffing. Calling it 'trickery' is also a decent way to decribe the activity, but doesn't explain what they're accomplishing.

Or possibly vice versa, depending on how you think of it. :smallamused:

[Trustypeaches]

I was also referring to their domain abilities. Excellent defensive features, especially Invoke Duplicity and the abilit to turn Invisible.As I've explained elsewhere in this thread, the defensive value of Invoke Duplicity is really DM dependent, unfortunately, given how little concrete info the abilities gives you about what a "perfect illusion" is and what you can do with it.

The invisibility would be fine if it wasn't a channel divinity IMO. 6 seconds of invisibility is something that could've been WIS modifier # of times per day like other cleric features.

[Tanarii]

As I've explained elsewhere in this thread, No you haven't. You've presented your view of it. But it's wrong. :smalltongue:

[Trustypeaches]

No you haven't. You've presented your view of it. But it's wrong. :smalltongue:
Can you point out to me where I can find information as to what a "perfect illusion" is in the game, or what kind of impact it would have in a battle?

I don't disagree that it should have defensive utility, but there's nothing in the actual writing that says it does or how that would work. And if you're going to give it defensive utility you can't deny that there are a lot questions that you and the DM need to answer, moreso than any other illusion given how little information the feature gives you.

It is 100% a "talk with your DM" feature.

[MaxWilson]

I don't disagree that it should have defensive utility, but there's nothing in the actual writing that says it does. And if you're going to give it defensive utility you can't deny that there are a lot questions that need to be answered, moreso than any other illusion given how little information the feature gives you.

It is 100% a "talk with your DM" feature.

This is the only quibble I have with your position: most illusion spells require DM conversations. You could create a Phantasmal Force of yourself and raise exactly the same questions as a Trickery duplicate.

Trickery spell list is indeed fantastic though, especially Polymorph and Pass Without Trace.

The best thing about Cloak of Shadows is that it doesn't require concentration and doesn't have components. It's a bit like Dodge + Disengage combined during combat, and out of combat you can do things like briefly combine invisibility + Pass Without Trace to sneak through a (short!) thoroughly-guided corridor. I agree that it is unfortunate that it costs a Channel Divinity though; it isn't that good.

It is kind of interesting that you can have Cloak of Shadows and Invoke Duplicity running at the same time, but I can't think of a good way to exploit that synergy.

[LudicSavant]

While I agree Trickery is the weakest domain, I don't think it makes it a weak domain by any means.

I think that the term “weak domain” kind of loses its meaning if the category does not include what you believe to be the weakest domain

[Trustypeaches]

This is the only quibble I have with your position: most illusion spells require DM conversations. You could create a Phantasmal Force of yourself and raise exactly the same questions as a Trickery duplicate.Most illusion spells have a list of parameters and limitations in their spell description. Minor Illusion, Major Image, and Silent Image all have 3 paragraphs detailing how they can be used, which serves as a basis for that conversation with your DM. Even Phantasmal Force at least has a line stating, in no uncertain terms, "it believes the illusion is entirely real; even its senses will verify this and any illogical situations that arise will be rationalised in the illusion's favor."

Meanwhile literally all Invoke Duplicity says about the Illusion it creates is that it's "perfect" and "distracting".

[Citan]

I love the theming of the Trickery Domain for clerics, as a lot of my characters are impish pranksters, shameless charlatans, and secretive spies and agents.

However, the Domain itself is possibly one of the worst designed subclasses in the game, and just fails on both a thematic and mechanical level in my opinion.


At level 1, all the Trickery cleric gets is Blessing of the Trickster, which isn’t bad but is definitely extremely little compared to other domains. They get no weapon or armor proficiencies, no cantrips (Where. Is. Minor. Illusion!?!), and no bonus skill proficiencies (a choice of Deception, Sleight of Hand, or Stealth wouldn’t have gone amiss). They don't even get a flavorful ribbon feature.


Now lets talk about Channel Divinity: Invoke Duplicity

At the cost of your concentration, Invoke Duplicity lets you cast spells from a different point, mostly notable for casting Touch Spells safely, which can admittedly be useful (Bestow Curse, Inflict Wounds, Cure Wounds, etc) . Then again, this isn't much more utility than a basic familiar, except its slow and requires the caster's bonus actions to move. Oh, and it can't perform the Help action in combat to grant allies advantage. Oh, and again, it COSTS YOUR CONCENTRATION.
Speaking of granting advantage, Invoke Duplicity also grants advantage to the cleric, and ONLY the Cleric when BOTH they and the illusion are within 5 feet of a target. So that doesn't grant advantage to any spell with an attack roll besides Inflict Wounds, but it must be intended for melee, right? Wait, never mind, Trickery doesn’t get Martial Weapons or Heavy Armor proficiencies.
Regarding the "unlisted' uses of Invoke Duplicity (confusing enemies, absorbing attacks, etc.), this is extremely DM dependant given how little info the feature gives you. See below (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23509843&postcount=24) for a more detailed breakdown


Their Channel Divinity: Cloak of Shadows is insultingly bad. Invisibility for ONE turn for the cost of an action! Make this a bonus action you can use up to WIS modifier times per day or something, don’t make it compete with Invoke Duplicity


They get Divine Strike (for POISON, no less) but again don’t get either Martial Weapon or Heavy Armor proficiencies, like every other Domain that gets this melee class feature. This had to be an oversight right?

The design is just all over the place: they are a "melee" cleric domain with no melee proficiencies. Some of their features are purely about team support like Blessing of the Trickster, but your Invoke Duplicity offers less utility to your allies than a Familiar, even after you can create 4 of them at once. Despite all this however, my biggest issue is that it fails to deliver on the theming: Many of their features only offer bonus to stealth such as Blessing of the Trickster and Cloak of Shadows. The only benefits they get for mind-manipulation, deceptions, and the social pillar of gameplay in general are some Domain spells (Charm Person / Modify Memory). The only Illusion abilities they get are Mirror Image and their Invoke Duplicity, which would sting less if Clerics didn't only have ONE Illusion spell otherwise (silence).

So yeah, despite easily being my favorite domain thematically, Trickery is just… terrible. Is there something I'm missing here? Or any house rules groups have implemented to deal with the domain's flaws?

EDIT: Oh, but their domain spells are pretty neat, even if I wish they got Major Image.


I'd change the damage type to psychic, which is better and also makes more sense.

And they should get at least a rapier, for heaven's sake.
Hi all
Although I don't think it's needed, I'd sure appreciate it getting a rapier and Minor Illusion indeed. :)

As for the rest...
I'll bar how awesome a Trickery Cleric can be for multiclasses and just consider it single class.

Well, first, spel list: Charm Person? Decent. Disguise Self? Great on any character that wants to build some deception.
Mirror Image? That's a few less hits risking your concentration, and is really a good use of spell if you build decent DEX (which is usually the case).
Blink? The next best thing, higher cost, but total insurance when effect happens to be totally free of any threat.
Dispel Magic? Well, when you don't have Counterspell, this is the next emergency option.
Dimension Door? Without Wizard in party, you are the one that can achieve some risky thefts or rescues.
Polymorph? I guess no description is needed to stress the awesomeness of that spell.
Dominate Person? Limited targets but very powerful.
Modify Memory? A bit DM-dependant and requires creativity, but can be *extremely* powerful to debunk conflicts or set up long-running schemes.

Unless you don't like the thematic (in which case why did you pick it in the first place), all spells are useful and most are out-Cleric exclusives.

Then Duplicity. Yeah, it costs you concentration. How really is that a big deal? Well, not at all.
First, it's not like you can set up Spirit Guardians every encounter before at the very least level 7. Not that you'd want it either, between lack of proper concentration and less than perfect AC.
Second, you think to consider that it's good only for touch spells. That's an extremely sad as wrong assumption. You can use Spiritual Weapon, Guiding Bolt, Sacred Flame or even Thorns Whip or Frostbite/Thunderclap from Magic Initiate, while resting comfortably in the backline. You can also stabilize a pal with Spare the Dying on one side, while using Healing Words to heal on the other side.

Basically, as long as a given situation can be handled with no more than one leveled spell in your turn, it's like there are two Clerics on the battlefield.

It's also a great trick to lure enemies away or create the illusion of flanking.

Third, consider all those above spells: most of them are *attacks*. Duplicate gives advantage on *attack rolls*, disregarding the weapon/spell, melee/ranged nature.
This means you are much more reliable than other Clerics in landing not only plain attacks, but also the aforementioned spells (yeah, Guiding Bolt will require Crossbow Expert if you want to use it often).

So... No, it's not as bad as it seems. It's actually pretty decent and can be great fun (and efficient) to play. It's just that it plays much more differently than other Clerics.

And that is for single-class.
Dip one level of Druid to greatly boost your offense options.
Put 2-3 levels of Trickery on a Lore Bard for extreme fun (get illusion to move in middle of enemies, luring some attacks and more importantly gathering everyone in place for a Destructive Wave).
Dip three levels of same on an Eldricht Knight to boost offense and defense for a very minor cost.
Etc etc...


Honestly, I think I'd be fine with Invoke Duplicity entirely if it just didn't cost concentration.

The only reason I can imagine why they kept concentration is that they were worried about clerics using their illusion as an anchor point for Spirit Guardians or something.
Yeah, but that's certainly a good enough reason. It would be like having the advantages of Moonbeam (good radius), Flaming Sphere (bonus action move), Sacred Flame (radiant damage) and difficult terrain spell all in one.
Far too powerful.


While I agree Trickery is the weakest domain, I don't think it makes it a weak domain by any means.
Funny how opinions can differ, for me the weakest is by far War domain, which only redeeming quality is ability to help others a few times per short rest with big accuracy boost. Everything else screams "I want to be a martial yet fails miserably at it".
At least Trickery provides truely different options.


Normally I would disagree since just because a monster is in the manual doesn't mean it will be in the game. Creatures in the campaign are the only thing that matter; therefore have your fun with fire and don't resent the occasional happenstance of a creature resistant or immune so you do something else. However, the poison immune undead are common enough, even mere zombies and skeletons, to have your character based on the damage type hurts the party let alone yourself. It's ok to have some poison damage stuff but not as your main feature.
But why, *why* in the world would any Cleric try and use weapon attack against undead when he has Sacred Flame (which works even better since negates Undead Fortitude and will deal at least same average damage) or the basic Channel Divinity?

That's, sorry to say, another perfect example of completely meaningless opposition.
Cleric already has all tools needed to take care of undead, and there are not that many humanoids or otherwise creatures outright immune or even resistant until past level 11-12.
Of course, I would have prefered something different like a CON save to inflict poison WIS-mods per long rest for example, because the poisoned status is really powerful.
But mechanically it's fine.

[feralwaffle]

I literally made this account just to argue how great trickery is. It says it is a perfect illusion.. you can also cast divine weapon in the same turn and now your illusion not only takes hits but also "hits" itself any dm worth their salt would say the enemy is going to try and fight the nearest threat.. that's now ten turns TEN TURNS of attacks taken up that could have went elsewhere which in itself is better than healing. Then combine this with arcane trickster.. you can make your illusion anywhere (with in range) you can SEE you can see through the eyes of your familiar. You can whack at your enemy while making it walk away from the fight and take potshots at it from afar with a hand crossbow. You are a one man party for ten turns ATLEAST. Who cares what the rest of your party is doing. If placed right you can distract 4 enemies for ten rounds and turn a hard fight into a simple one. OR say you failed your stealth save. Turn a corner hide and put up your illusion self. Now they capture the fake you and you have a minute head start to gtfo. Theres so many uses that if your dm rps even a little are game changing . Trickery cleric is honestly one of the best. If not THE best cleric domain who cares about the poison damage? really you should only be taking this class up to pollymorph anyways and the rest rogue or fighter if you really want. ( pollymorph your familiar while you dole out attacks with your crossbow/guiding bolt combo with crossbow expert feat and that other sniper feat -5 +10 dmg) guys this arc type is so good and I've only expressed 10% of its usefulness. Explain one other cleric domain that's has as many uses.

[Deathtongue]

The trickery aspect is exactly where they excel at defensiveness, buffing, and debuffing. Calling it 'trickery' is also a decent way to decribe the activity, but doesn't explain what they're accomplishing.

Or possibly vice versa, depending on how you think of it. :smallamused:If we're defining Trickery through those means, the basic druid chassis is better at Trickery than the Trickery domain cleric.

The Trickery domain cleric is good at buffs, debuffs, and protecting its own butt. But at misdirecting people or taking advantage of peoples' known unknowns/unknown unknowns? Not really. The closest they have is that Channel Divinity ability, which relies too much on DM adjucation and is quite frankly not particularly impressive what with only lasting a minute, taking an action to activate, and using up concentration.

[LudicSavant]

Keep in mind that the a certain other divine trickster (aka the druid) also gets Polymorph and Pass Without Trace. See the comments on the Druid in the “best infiltrator” threads.

I am curious how people feel the Trickery Cleric matches up against spymaster druids.

[MaxWilson]

Invoke Duplicity + Contagion is now pretty good, with the latest PHB errata. If you hit, the enemy is poisoned for several rounds. Legendary Resistance doesn't prevent the poisoning. Good for dragon slaying, except green dragons.

This is also good news for Mobile spellcasters like high level Mobile Moon Druid Air Elementals and mid-level Moon Druids in human form, since Contagion is a melee attack which means no opportunity attacks even if you miss.

[Pex]

But why, *why* in the world would any Cleric try and use weapon attack against undead when he has Sacred Flame (which works even better since negates Undead Fortitude and will deal at least same average damage) or the basic Channel Divinity?

That's, sorry to say, another perfect example of completely meaningless opposition.
Cleric already has all tools needed to take care of undead, and there are not that many humanoids or otherwise creatures outright immune or even resistant until past level 11-12.
Of course, I would have prefered something different like a CON save to inflict poison WIS-mods per long rest for example, because the poisoned status is really powerful.
But mechanically it's fine.

It was just an example, not a definition. To answer your question:

Now that Toll The Dead exists I have seen players take that spell and not Sacred Flame. Not a wise decision in my opinion not to have both, but it happens.

Sacred Flame and Turning are a saving throw. Sometimes you have better odds making an attack roll than forcing a saving throw. The player has fun attacking with a weapon rather than cast a Cantrip for the million oneth time. Even better if the weapon is magical, not necessarily the mace of disruption.

There could be more undead than can be covered with the number of Turnings you get before you rest. The cleric may want to use his Domain Channel Ability instead.

[Trustypeaches]

Here's a question about Invoke Duplicity.

If you can cast spells as if you're in the illusion's space, would this apply to opportunity attack spells one might cast via War Caster. That'd certainly be interesting.

[MaxWilson]

Here's a question about Invoke Duplicity.

If you can cast spells as if you're in the illusion's space, would this apply to opportunity attack spells one might cast via War Caster. That'd certainly be interesting.

Seems logical. I'd allow it.

[Princess]

The domain abilities lag a bit, because it takes more effort to get good use of them (which is somewhat thematically appropriate, but still disappointing for many newer players). And while I agree they should get a little something extra (I'd say, pick one rogue skill and one thematic other proficiency, like a tricky martial weapon or forgery kits or something). But the spell list they get is easily among the best - disguise self, mirror image, and polymorph let you do things that other clerics just can't. With the right party synergy, they are excellent as is (having seen that in action).

[stoutstien]

Trickery/shadow monk is fun build

[NaughtyTiger]

Here's a question about Invoke Duplicity.

If you can cast spells as if you're in the illusion's space, would this apply to opportunity attack spells one might cast via War Caster. That'd certainly be interesting.

ooh, that is a good question...

[Trustypeaches]

ooh, that is a good question...
Sort of on topic, but if you cast Command on an enemy using your War Caster attack of opportunity, does the command take affect immediately or on their next turn?

[Citan]

Keep in mind that the a certain other divine trickster (aka the druid) also gets Polymorph and Pass Without Trace. See the comments on the Druid in the “best infiltrator” threads.

I am curious how people feel the Trickery Cleric matches up against spymaster druids.
Depends.
If you are asking "whomever of both would win an optimization contest", then Druid is leagues above and beyond Cleric. The simple fact that you can "polymorph" into a creature while concentrating on another spell like Pass Without Trace, and the fact you can stay hours long as an animal, and the fact you can access many sneaky forms from level 2 onwards, is enough to let Cleric in the dust. You could add to that Speak With Animals (free scouts) and Awaken (cheap spies), high level transport anywhere (Transport By Plant, Wind Walk) etc...

With that said, Cleric has some great tools too: Modify Memory, if played properly, could prove invaluable to make some covert spy operations.
In the same idea, Divination and Commune may be extremely powerful tools, although this is obviously more DM-dependent. It's not my cup of tea in the first place though, so I couldn't give any proper feedback story about it. I'm just seeing the potential. :)
Then again, since there are rituals, a Druid wanting to maximize spying tools would certainly pick Ritual Caster: Cleric.

For those reasons I think Druid is "better" than Trickery Cleric, because more tools at disposal (and/or tools easier to use with less DM variance) and little investment needed to grab the interesting Cleric rituals.

With that said, I'll have to stress that I'm thinking mainly about levels 1-10 for now. On second half things change both sides.
Although it's not technically "spying", the Divine Intervention may very well be considered a very valuable source of information, even bringing some that a "normal" spy couldn't get.
On the other side, at highest levels, the "auto-subtle" really aggravates things.

But when comparing Druid and Trickery Cleric without any special investment, I'd say Druid will be overall better, but Cleric will shine greatly whenever you adventure in a barren land (few animals and plants), some poor cities (where animals are food so stray ones would tend to avoid) or foreign plane (are there beasts on Elemental Plane for example? True question, I know scrap about 5E Universe).


Invoke Duplicity + Contagion is now pretty good, with the latest PHB errata. If you hit, the enemy is poisoned for several rounds. Legendary Resistance doesn't prevent the poisoning. Good for dragon slaying, except green dragons.

This is also good news for Mobile spellcasters like high level Mobile Moon Druid Air Elementals and mid-level Moon Druids in human form, since Contagion is a melee attack which means no opportunity attacks even if you miss.
Could you plz recall what was said in the Errata?

[Leith]

They're not rogues. They're clerics with a little illusionist built in. Like how war clerics are not fighters, they're clerics with a little Paladin built in.
I've played a trickster cleric and as long your DM is cool with your shenenanigans it's insanely cool.

[Saggo]

Could you plz recall what was said in the Errata?

"[New] Contagion (p. 227). The last
sentence of the first paragraph now
reads, “On a hit, the target is poisoned.”
The second paragraph now reads, “At
the end of each of the poisoned target’s
turns, the target must make a Consti-
tution saving throw. If the target suc-
ceeds on three of these saves, it is no
longer poisoned, and the spell ends. If
the target fails three of these saves, the
target is no longer poisoned, but choose
one of the diseases below. The target is
subjected to the chosen disease for the
spell’s duration.”"

[ImproperJustice]

If you invoke duplicity after casting Mirror Image do you have an army of doubles running around?

Would definitely help with the Monk(ey) King Multiclass build.
And yeah, Spiritual Weapon to have his floating staff flying around.
Sounds like fun times.

[Snowbluff]

They're not rogues. They're clerics with a little illusionist built in. Literally no Minor Illusion or Silent Image, only Mirror Image.


Like how war clerics are not fighters, they're clerics with a little Paladin built in.

War Clerics are also awful. All clerics get Spiritual weapon which is better than the whole of War Cleric.

[Leith]

Literally no Minor Illusion or Silent Image, only Mirror Image.

So, illusionists are better illusionists than trickster clerics? I don't know what to do with that.

War Clerics are also awful. All clerics get Spiritual weapon which is better than the whole of War Cleric.

Not really the point. A cleric is a cleric. I kind of get how disappointing it is that tricksters don't get as much cool stuff as other domains but I don't think it makes them suck. Like the illusionist it very much depends on how you use their abilities. If you're only concerned about combats then, yeah, play a different cleric 'cause tricksters aren't as good at it as literally any one else.

[Deathtongue]

Not really the point. A cleric is a cleric. I kind of get how disappointing it is that tricksters don't get as much cool stuff as other domains but I don't think it makes them suck. Like the illusionist it very much depends on how you use their abilities. If you're only concerned about combats then, yeah, play a different cleric 'cause tricksters aren't as good at it as literally any one else.The problem is, if you want to play an actual trickster as represented by mythology or popular culture, you're much better off with the Knowledge domain. That doesn't make the Trickery domain bad, it just makes it a roleplaying trap for people who don't powergame/analyze the rules.

If the Trickery domain was renamed the Stealth or Travel or Ambush domain, these problems would pretty much go away.

[Tanarii]

If the Trickery domain was renamed the Stealth or Travel or Ambush domain, these problems would pretty much go away.Except it doesn't do any of those things. Whereas it definitely utilizes trickery. In a defensive/buff way, with a touch of debuff.

[Deathtongue]

Except it doesn't do any of those things. Whereas it definitely utilizes trickery. In a defensive/buff way, with a touch of debuff.Narratively speaking, who cares about how you can 'trick' someone in narrow combat situations? The Trickster cleric doesn't hawk shady wares or wheedle secrets out of courtiers or bluff fortress guards or trick angry mobs any better than regular clerics. Some trickster.

Not all is lost, though. The Knowledge cleric does those things much better than the average cleric, so they've got you covered if what you want to play is an actual trickster. It's only a problem if you're so fixated on the name that you think a Trickster Cleric must be better than the average cleric at being a trickster because someone wrote 'Trickster' on their sheet. Hell, I think this was one of Order of the Stick's earliest jokes.

[stoutstien]

I'm thinking about adding a free skills Prof at lv 1 steath or deception would work.
-Invoked duplicate and cloak of shadows are now same action.
- divine strike is psychic damage or allow to pick potent cantrip
(Offered to all clerics)
Best way I see without a complete rewrite.

[Teaguethebean]

Dude, I wish.

As it stands, I'd say the domain (unfortunately) leans more to roguey-stealthy stuff with all their features outside Invoke Duplicity revolving around stealth or melee.

I would say invoke duplicity is a good roguey-stealth feature as it makes a great distraction as you pickpocket your target

[KorvinStarmast]

I would say invoke duplicity is a good roguey-stealth feature as it makes a great distraction as you pickpocket your target let's toss in a background to flesh out our Trickster Cleric
Urchin
Skill Proficiencies: Sleight of Hand, Ste⁠alth
Tool Proficiencies: Disguise kit, thieves’ tools

Tricksy, and right in concert with your suggestion.

Criminal

Skill Proficiencies: Deception, Steal⁠th
Tool Proficiencies: One type of gaming set, thieves’ tools

Charlatan
Skill Proficiencies: Deception, Sleight of Hand
Tool Proficiencies: Disguise kit, Forgery kit

Now, if you go vHuman, you get an additional proficiency so one can always get deception at need, or if a Charlatan, get thieve's tools proficiency ...

Trickery Domain is in a pretty good place, but I agree with the domain damage type needing to be Psychic rather than Poison. better thematically.

[Beechgnome]

The thing invoke duplicity does that no other ability or spell does is give you an arcane combatant in a fight that cannot be harmed (though it can be dispelled). That means it can walk right past/through all the big bad’s guards and bestow curse (when cast as 5th level) or inflict wounds or contagion the boss. A divine Soul with distant could do the same, but only within 30 feet. Unlike a familiar, who dies the moment an enemy targets it, your illusion remains, unless you lose concentration.

tactically the fun of it to me is letting the baddies KNOW it is an illusion and disregard it. Then having it move through the battlefield unmolested before springing the trap. I’m fond of word of radiance in a crowd of undead, or multicasting with druid for earth tremor or thunder wave. Getting arcane lock through Azorius or Mammon tiefling let’s you block future escape routes. I like this tactic to the Star Trek TNG episode where they separated the saucer and then used the supposed decoy saucer to launch the attack.

The 17th level version, with 4 duplicates running this way and that, allows for all sorts of shenanigans. Powerful? Maybe not powerful. But super fun and satisfying. Fun is good.

[Trustypeaches]

let's toss in a background to flesh out our Trickster Cleric
Urchin
Skill Proficiencies: Sleight of Hand, Ste⁠alth
Tool Proficiencies: Disguise kit, thieves’ tools

Tricksy, and right in concert with your suggestion.

Criminal

Skill Proficiencies: Deception, Steal⁠th
Tool Proficiencies: One type of gaming set, thieves’ tools

Charlatan
Skill Proficiencies: Deception, Sleight of Hand
Tool Proficiencies: Disguise kit, Forgery kitIt'd be nice if the domain included any of these proficiencies, or if Blessing of the Trickster affected more than just Stealth

[Zalabim]

Narratively speaking, who cares about how you can 'trick' someone in narrow combat situations? The Trickster cleric doesn't hawk shady wares or wheedle secrets out of courtiers or bluff fortress guards or trick angry mobs any better than regular clerics. Some trickster.

Not all is lost, though. The Knowledge cleric does those things much better than the average cleric, so they've got you covered if what you want to play is an actual trickster. It's only a problem if you're so fixated on the name that you think a Trickster Cleric must be better than the average cleric at being a trickster because someone wrote 'Trickster' on their sheet. Hell, I think this was one of Order of the Stick's earliest jokes.

You seem to have a misunderstanding of what a cleric is. The war cleric is not supposed to just be a warrior and the trickery cleric is not supposed to just be a trickster. They are clerics first. These are the clerics whose domain is war and warriors or trickery and tricksters. The clerics who support those things. They aren't going to totally embody those things. Their primary purpose is to support those things.

[Dark Schneider]

Bad? Allowing an ally to have advantage on stealth? Putting yourself safe and your image to help your allies in combat?

The worst IMO are the those "combat" clerics, the cleric will never be a good battler, as he does not takes extra attacks. So what's the meaning of trying to compete on that?

Help and support clerics are the best ones.

[stoutstien]

You seem to have a misunderstanding of what a cleric is. The war cleric is not supposed to just be a warrior and the trickery cleric is not supposed to just be a trickster. They are clerics first. These are the clerics whose domain is war and warriors or trickery and tricksters. The clerics who support those things. They aren't going to totally embody those things. Their primary purpose is to support those things.
I love the thought of tempest domain isn't JUST about lightning/tunder damage. It perfectly fine for you defining domain feature to be completely up to DM interpretation.
Let's apply this logic to rogue's sneak attack. What if instead of the clear parameters it states it just said when you have the "upper hand" in combat? Without a clear understanding of a core mechanic of a class it will always be seen in the worse light.
Note: war cleric is just bad.really really bad.

[Tanarii]

Note: war cleric is just bad.really really bad.
No, it really isn't.

This thread has two swing and misses on calling completely fine Domains "bad" so far. :smallamused:

[stoutstien]

No, it really isn't.

This thread has two swing and misses on calling completely fine Domains "bad" so far. :smallamused:

http://www.montypython.net/scripts/argument.php 🤣

Both war and trickery have a lot in common. Strong flavor. grade A spells lists. Weak divine strike.
The cleric of war should at least be good at war and same goes for trickery.

[Snowbluff]

No, it really isn't.

This thread has two swing and misses on calling completely fine Domains "bad" so far. :smallamused:

Well, Trickery is established as bad.

War Cleric's main feature, the bonus action attack, conflicts with spiritual weapon, a spell every cleric gets.
Their Channel Divinity is very weak.
Their spell list is almost all spell they get, with a note of Hold Monster, which can be quite mediocre for a 5th level spell (allows rerolls at this level of slot? Really?!).

[Trustypeaches]

No, it really isn't.

This thread has two swing and misses on calling completely fine Domains "bad" so far. :smallamused:I'm still curious to hear why you think Invoke Duplicity isn't DM dependent.

[stoutstien]

I'm still curious to hear why you think Invoke Duplicity isn't DM dependent.
Second this

[Citan]

Well, Trickery is established as bad being so far away from my taste I don't even want to try to play its strengths.

Fixed that for you.

[R.Shackleford]

Blessing of the Trickster

At 1st level, you can use your action to touch a willing creature other than yourself to give it advantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks. This blessing lasts for 1 hour or until you use this feature again.

Why This Is Awesome!

So as long as you don't play in a game where the DM puts a shiny sign above player's heads that says "they are here to kill you, kill these guys on sight", you can use this to great effect and might be one of the best "face" abilities in the game.

For extra help take the Prodigy or Actor feat for this tactic.

The Cleric walks right up to a group of enemies and engages them in banter. The cleric can be trying to sell them on their religion (did this on orcs once with an elf, they respected my character for not being a wuss.. Tho my elf hated Corellon so that helped), trying to sell an item, or trying to get their "help" in some way. Meanwhile, the rogue (who doesn't need this feature) is taking the [insert non-sneaky party member] is sneaking around looking for "the item", getting a tactical advantage, or just trying to find some information.

This can also set up a great "look what's that over there!" scenario without needing to roll deception as your allies will actually be behind the enemies doing something.

Channel Divinity: Invoke Duplicity

Starting at 2nd level, as an action, you create a perfect illusion of yourself that lasts for 1 minute, or until you lose your concentration (as if you were concentrating on a spell). The illusion appears in an unoccupied space that you can see within 30 feet of you. As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the illusion up to 30 feet to a space you can see, but it must remain within 120 feet of you.

For the duration, you can cast spells as though you were in the illusion's space, but you must use your own senses. Additionally, when both you and your illusion are within 5 feet of a creature that can see the illusion, you have advantage on attack rolls against that creature, given how distracting the illusion is to the target.


Why This Is Awesome!

Clerics have some good non-concentration spells that have a duration. This ability pairs quite well with the likes of Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, and Spiritual Weapon. Also works well as a way to split enemy ranks. Make sure enemies don't see you create the illusion and you can split enemy ranks during battle.

Also, auto advantage is a very very very nice ability to have! Keep this thing within 5' and your spiritual weapon and any other attacks are gonna be hitting. Great for multiclassing. Concentration checks tend to not to be all that hard to pass after a couple levels (and warcaster is amazing). Keep this thing within 5' of both of you and blamo! Advantage.



Channel Divinity: Cloak of Shadows

Starting at 6th level, as an action, you become invisible until the end of your next turn. You become visible if you attack or cast a spell.

Why This Is Awesome

Invisibility is just pure awesome sauce. Sure, it doesn't auto-hide you, but you are heavily obscured for the purposes of hiding so that's a plus as you can use your action to hide at any time.

Great to go on the defensive or "meld" into your illusion. One thing I liked to do is run into my illusion and as I hit the illusion I would go invisible and then run off. Later I would just drop the concentration of the illusion... Totally stood right in the middle of a TPK (my party members were already dead) as the fire giants ran out to try and find me... So glad that Channel Divinity is once per short or long rest.

Divine Strike

This ability sucks. Honestly, this should have been potent spellcasting or some sort of pseudo subtle spell (perhaps just getting rid of the verbal components of any 0 - 5th level spell).

[Trustypeaches]

Blessing of the Trickster

At 1st level, you can use your action to touch a willing creature other than yourself to give it advantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks. This blessing lasts for 1 hour or until you use this feature again.

Why This Is Awesome!

So as long as you don't play in a game where the DM puts a shiny sign above player's heads that says "they are here to kill you, kill these guys on sight", you can use this to great effect and might be one of the best "face" abilities in the game.

For extra help take the Prodigy or Actor feat for this tactic.

The Cleric walks right up to a group of enemies and engages them in banter. The cleric can be trying to sell them on their religion (did this on orcs once with an elf, they respected my character for not being a wuss.. Tho my elf hated Corellon so that helped), trying to sell an item, or trying to get their "help" in some way. Meanwhile, the rogue (who doesn't need this feature) is taking the [insert non-sneaky party member] is sneaking around looking for "the item", getting a tactical advantage, or just trying to find some information.

This can also set up a great "look what's that over there!" scenario without needing to roll deception as your allies will actually be behind the enemies doing something.
There's nothing wrong with Blessing of the Trickster on it's own (although I wish you had the choice of granting advantage on Stealth, Sleight of Hand, and Deception for more versatility).

The problem is that it's ALL Tricksters get at level 1, which is hilariously little compared to any other Domain.



Channel Divinity: Invoke Duplicity

*snip*

Why This Is Awesome!
Clerics have some good non-concentration spells that have a duration. This ability pairs quite well with the likes of Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, and Spiritual Weapon. Also works well as a way to split enemy ranks. Make sure enemies don't see you create the illusion and you can split enemy ranks during battle.

Also, auto advantage is a very very very nice ability to have! Keep this thing within 5' and your spiritual weapon and any other attacks are gonna be hitting. Great for multiclassing. Concentration checks tend to not to be all that hard to pass after a couple levels (and warcaster is amazing). Keep this thing within 5' of both of you and blamo! Advantage.
I'm not 100% sure you'd get advantage on your spiritual weapon strikes, but even if you did, the fact they both require bonus actions to maneuver and use is limiting.

And the problem with concentration isn't that it's hard to maintain, it's that it competes with the cleric's best spells: spiritual guardians, bless, and the Trickster's Polymorph.

[Dark Schneider]

- Blessing of the Trickster:
It could save you from many combats if you can achieve the task with stealth. Allows to start with advantage most combats, because at least one of your characters will have the extra susprise round. And its free!

- Channel Divinity: Invoke Duplicity:
Tactically superior, be at 2 places at the same time on the battlefield for casting spells. Or put yourself safe and let your duplicate to help your allies. You at back line attacking with your sacred flame (or spells), your duplicate at front line helping battlers or attacking with short range spells. Save the Warcaster feat as you don't need for concentration purposes and get another one.

Also, look at the domain spells: Mirror Image, Pass without Trace, Blink, Dimensional Door...so many really useful wizard spells for the Cleric. You have the best defensive spells, with Mirror Image + Blink as best defensive combo.
For surviving is a really nice domain.

In fact, Trickster is my favorite domain just after Life. The Lore/Knowledge one is also nice.

But IMO there is no "bad", each one is good for its purposes. I.e. for small groups, where you don't have wizard/sorcerer, Light domain is good to get some AoE attack spells as they are useful.

[stoutstien]

- Blessing of the Trickster:
It could save you from many combats if you can achieve the task with stealth. Allows to start with advantage most combats, because at least one of your characters will have the extra susprise round. And its free!

- Channel Divinity: Invoke Duplicity:
Tactically superior, be at 2 places at the same time on the battlefield for casting spells. Or put yourself safe and let your duplicate to help your allies. You at back line attacking with your sacred flame (or spells), your duplicate at front line helping battlers or attacking with short range spells. Save the Warcaster feat as you don't need for concentration purposes and get another one.

Also, look at the domain spells: Mirror Image, Pass without Trace, Blink, Dimensional Door...so many really useful wizard spells for the Cleric. You have the best defensive spells, with Mirror Image + Blink as best defensive combo.
For surviving is a really nice domain.

In fact, Trickster is my favorite domain just after Life. The Lore/Knowledge one is also nice.

But IMO there is no "bad", each one is good for its purposes. I.e. for small groups, where you don't have wizard/sorcerer, Light domain is good to get some AoE attack spells as they are useful.

No one can argue that the spell list isn't great. The problem mostly lies with blessings of the trickster only working on steath. I mean is sneaking the only form of trickery? No guile or fast hands? But the largest problem is duplicate. As been stated it suffers from conflict with action economy, eats up concentration, and is completely 100% dm discretion.

[KorvinStarmast]

Well, Trickery is established as bad. Nope, except in your perception.
Blessing of the Trickster

At 1st level, you can use your action to touch a willing creature other than yourself to give it advantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks. This blessing lasts for 1 hour or until you use this feature again.

Why This Is Awesome! In a party where people play as a team, the monk or rogue who is sneaking can, for an hour, act as a superb scout and prevent the party from being surprised. (And as above, reduce the chance that Mr Paladin clanks away the attempt at surprise ...)


Why Channel Duplicity Is Awesome!

Clerics have some good non-concentration spells that have a duration. This ability pairs quite well with the likes of Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, and Spiritual Weapon.

Yep. Also, auto advantage is a very very very nice ability to have!
Advantage when casting Inflict Wounds is very handy. 4d6 damage does not suck.


[B]
Channel Divinity: Cloak of Shadows
Why This Is Awesome
Too many ways to count.

[U]Divine Strike

This ability sucks. Yeah. Psychic damage would have been so much better.

[Snowbluff]

Fixed that Spoke on someone I know nothing about for you.

FTFY.

I like playing tricksy casters. Trickery cleric is the absolute bottom rung of this. One of my first characters I played was a trickster cleric, and I know it's awful for what we think it's supposed to do.

Nope, except in your perception. Blatantly false, there's evidence my perception is not the exception.


In a party where people play as a team, the monk or rogue who is sneaking can, for an hour, act as a superb scout and prevent the party from being surprised. (And as above, reduce the chance that Mr Paladin clanks away the attempt at surprise ...)
The paladin probably isn't make the check either way. IN 5e only have of the party needs to succeed at stealth to make a group stealth check.
That is to say, minimally useful.


Advantage when casting Inflict Wounds is very handy. 4d6 damage does not suck unless you're level 1. 14 damage does suck.


Too many ways to count.
It's probably why the class doesn't get Invisibility as a spell. -1 point for only lasting a round and wasting your channel, -10 for making the spell list actively worse. -1/10 would turn undead instead.


Yeah. Psychic damage would have been so much better.
I'm not sure DIvine Strike is at all appropriate. I would think the cantrip bonus is better for someone hiding than a melee only attack.

[Deathtongue]

Okay, I have stealth covered because I have another druid/ranger in the party.

In terms of advancing my whole 'trickery' schtick, why should I play a Trickster cleric over a Knowledge cleric? There's a lot more to being a trickster than sneaking. Knowledge cleric covers almost all of my non-stealth trickster needs (and does stealth better than other non-Trickster domain clerics) and gives me a bunch of other stuff to make me feel more like classic trickster archetypes like Tom Sawyer and Brer Rabbit and Loki.

[MaxWilson]

Okay, I have stealth covered because I have another druid/ranger in the party.

In terms of advancing my whole 'trickery' schtick, why should I play a Trickster cleric over a Knowledge cleric? There's a lot more to being a trickster than sneaking.

Out of curiosity, what does Knowledge bring to the table? Short-term skill bonuses, mind reading, and Suggestion... if you're trying to be more about running the long con than sneaking, Knowledge looks hardly better than Trickery. (And Trickery is quite good at sneaking.) If I wanted to be a real Loki-style trickster I'd probably either just choose a different game system entirely or play an Enchanter (Modify Memory, Fabricate, Seeming, Polymorph, Find Familiar, Scrying) with proficiencies in Insight and Deception although that would (1) take a long time to reach levels with a payoff, (2) would require a lot of DM buy-in and probably custom game structures to make it a real thing.

Loki-style trickery is really more of a playstyle choice than a PC "build" choice. Instead of killing the Frost Giant with weapons, you Polymorph a Purple Worm into a worm, put the worm in an apple, and dare the Frost Giant to beat you in an apple-eating contest.

Therefore, I infer that you can't possibly be thinking of Loki-style trickery the same way I am. Why is Knowledge even tempting you here? What kind of trickery are you intending to do?

[stoutstien]

Out of curiosity, what does Knowledge bring to the table? Short-term skill bonuses, mind reading, and Suggestion... if you're trying to be more about running the long con than sneaking, Knowledge looks hardly better than Trickery. (And Trickery is quite good at sneaking.) If I wanted to be a real Loki-style trickster I'd probably either just choose a different game system entirely or play an Enchanter (Modify Memory, Fabricate, Seeming, Polymorph, Find Familiar, Scrying) with proficiencies in Insight and Deception although that would (1) take a long time to reach levels with a payoff, (2) would require a lot of DM buy-in and probably custom game structures to make it a real thing.

Loki-style trickery is really more of a playstyle choice than a PC "build" choice. Instead of killing the Frost Giant with weapons, you Polymorph a Purple Worm into a worm, put the worm in an apple, and dare the Frost Giant to beat you in an apple-eating contest.

Therefore, I infer that you can't possibly be thinking of Loki-style trickery the same way I am. Why is Knowledge even tempting you here? What kind of trickery are you intending to do?

Knowledge beats trickery at being trickery.
two free skills with expertise, floating skill Prof, ablity to cast a suggestion after u know the target will fail, and spell list that is almost as good (non detection).

[MaxWilson]

Knowledge beats trickery at being trickery.
two free skills with expertise, floating skill Prof, ablity to cast a suggestion after u know the target will fail, and spell list that is almost as good (non detection).

I'll expand my question to you then as well as Deathtongue: what exactly are you intending to do in play? What does "Trickery" mean to you?

[Citan]

FTFY.

I like playing tricksy casters. Trickery cleric is the absolute bottom rung of this. One of my first characters I played was a trickster cleric, and I know it's awful for what we think it's supposed to do.

So, "I had a bad experience with one character = this archetype is bad"?
Impressive example of self-reflection mate.

Reminds me of so many Sorcerer threads...

[KorvinStarmast]

Blatantly false, there's evidence my perception is not the exception. Our experience differs.

14 damage does suck. At level 15? Sure. At level 1-3? No.
(Sorry, should have referred to 16.5 damage, as my brain had Inflict Wounds and Guiding Bolt crossed up)
It takes two to three rounds to do that with a mace and a few extra damage from str bonus. I

t's probably why the class doesn't get Invisibility as a spell.
Yeah, and I'll agree with you on choices regarding Channel Divinity. Are you fighting a lot of undead? Stick with Turn Undead. (For any domain) If not, it's a good choice.

[stoutstien]

I'll expand my question to you then as well as Deathtongue: what exactly are you intending to do in play? What does "Trickery" mean to you?
Options is the biggest one.
Trickery= means I can make others sneaky and I can have spells that make sneaky sneak sneaker.
Knowledge= you need sneak? Got it. Deception? Check. Mind reader? Yep. Counter scying spells. Oh yeah.

Worse part If you go elf of some sort you can grab the xans feat for pass without trace.

This isn't even addressing potent casting over shadowing trickster divine strike

[Trustypeaches]

Advantage when casting Inflict Wounds is very handy. 4d6 damage does not suck.
You mean 3d10?

Also there’s nothing wrong Blessing of the Trickster on its own, besides it being a bit disappointingly narrow (it’d be nice if you had a choice of buffing stealth, deception, or Sleight of Hand or something). The issue is that that’s all Trickery Clerics get at level 1, and that is very lacking compared to every other Domain.

I wouldn’t have mentioned it if the Domain had gotten Blessing of the Trickster plus any of the following:

the minor Illusion cantrip
a choice of proficiency in deception, persuasion, stealth, or Sleight of Hand
a proficiency in Martial Weapons since Trickery Clerics are the ONLY cleric Domain with Divine Strike that cannot get away with dumping either DEX or STR without sacrificing have decent melee and AC, which makes them perplexingly MAD

But Blessing of the Trickster is ALL they get. Hence, it's lacking.

[KorvinStarmast]

You mean 3d10? Yes, I do, I was channeling "Guiding Bolt" when I read that. (I tended to use GB more often since one of my party could get advantage on a hit ...)

If it had gotten that + minor Illusion or + a choice of proficiency in deception Deception proficiency as a given would be thematically perfect, yes.

Note on play style: Trickster domain isn't IMO for clerics who are trying to be blasty. The domain spells have some great choices that clerics don't normally get to mess with.
Particularly Polymorph. :smallbiggrin:

[Deathtongue]

I'll expand my question to you then as well as Deathtongue: what exactly are you intending to do in play? What does "Trickery" mean to you?

To me, trickery means fooling people. Obviously stealth is a big part of that, because people who can't see what you're doing tend to be easier marks. However, stealth only gets you so far. Trickery also means social engineering and being prepared to catch people off guard with social misdirection. Knowledge gives you the tools to be prepared (either through spells or giving you proficiency in something like chess games or artisan's tools on the fly) along with social engineer (that CD is great). The Trickery domain does not do that appreciably better than other domains, even excluding Knowledge.

When I bring up Loki, obviously I'm referring to his use of superpowers to confound people. To that end, your apple example is misapplied; Jafar from Aladdin could do something like that, too, but he's not really in the Trickster archetype.

[Trustypeaches]

The "tricks" that the Trickery Domain has are mostly in their spell list, not that class features.

Polymorph, Dimension Door, Blink, Mirror Image, Disguise Self, Charm Person, Pass Without Trace, Modify Memory
Despite the disturbing lack of Illusions (where is Major Image. Why doesn't this subclass get Minor Illusion?!?), there's a lot to play with here as a Trickster, turning people into animals, changing their appearance, cloaking their allies with shadows, manipulating their foes minds...

So yeah, Trickery does this better than other cleric domains with their spells, but their actual features are all stealth and melee focused, bizarrely, with the exception of Invoke Duplicity's increased spell range and DM-dependent confusion / CC.

Spells are great and all, but they don't separate a Trickery Cleric from other spellcasters like Wizards, Bards, and Sorcerers who also get those same spells and a lot more to sell the Trickster angle (Subtle Spell, Illusory Reality, Expertise Deception). This is just my opinion but I don't think the Trickster's domain features themselves do a great job of reinforcing the Trickster theming.

[MaxWilson]

Options is the biggest one.
Trickery= means I can make others sneaky and I can have spells that make sneaky sneak sneaker.
Knowledge= you need sneak? Got it. Deception? Check. Mind reader? Yep. Counter scying spells. Oh yeah.

Worse part If you go elf of some sort you can grab the xans feat for pass without trace.

This isn't even addressing potent casting over shadowing trickster divine strike

Options to do what exactly? When you say "you need sneak? Got it. Deception. Check," what I hear is, "versatility." If you are building your character around sneakiness you've got those things already. (They're also fairly modest quantitative bonuses which don't answer the question I'm asking about what Trickery means to you.)

Right now all I'm hearing from you is "Non-Detection and Detect Thoughts," but as a Trickery cleric you've got Disguise Self, Pass Without Trace, and Modify Memory; as an Enchanter you'd have those PLUS Disguise Self, Polymorph, Modify Memory, Dimension Door, Major Image, Minor Illusion, and Invisibility. What kind of trickery are you thinking of where Non-Detection and Detect Thoughts (of all things) are key ingredients in your schemes? Let's say I've got a Trickery cleric with Stealth, Persuasion, Sleight of Hand, Insight and Deception proficiencies plus whatever. I've got Modify Memory, I've got Enhance Ability, I've got Pass Without Trace, I've got Polymorph. What exactly is it that I'd want to do that would make me go, "Boy, I sure wish I was a Knowledge cleric instead, I'd be so much trickier" but not make me say, "Boy, I sure wish I was an Enchanter X instead, I'd be so much trickier"?

I gave you an example already of how I view Loki-style trickery (Frost Giant/Purple Worm apple). What's something tricky you'd like to do with Trickery but can't?


Deception proficiency as a given would be thematically perfect, yes.

In practice it's a non-issue because backgrounds let you get any skills you want.


The issue is that that’s all Trickery Clerics get at level 1, and that is very lacking compared to every other Domain.

It's a no-concentration, unlimited-use stealth buff which in conjunction with Pass Without Trace can let you do things like sneak the whole party including the clanky clanging paladin into the Painted Overlord's private quarters. It's far from the worst first level domain ability out there. Grave Cleric comes to mind as clearly worse.


To me, trickery means fooling people. Obviously stealth is a big part of that, because people who can't see what you're doing tend to be easier marks. However, stealth only gets you so far. Trickery also means social engineering and being prepared to catch people off guard with social misdirection. Knowledge gives you the tools to be prepared (either through spells or giving you proficiency in something like chess games or artisan's tools on the fly) along with social engineer (that CD is great). The Trickery domain does not do that appreciably better than other domains, even excluding Knowledge.

When I bring up Loki, obviously I'm referring to his use of superpowers to confound people. To that end, your apple example is misapplied; Jafar from Aladdin could do something like that, too, but he's not really in the Trickster archetype.

Huh. Disguise Self is the #1 tool I'd want for social engineering, but Detect Thoughts is #2. Neither Trickery nor Knowledge cleric gets them both.

Thanks for explaining how you'd want to use instant proficiency--clearly you'd use it to fake competency, and I can see how that would be useful in certain cons.

I don't think 5E supports social engineering very well though, not without custom game structures and a lot of work from the DM.


When I bring up Loki, obviously I'm referring to his use of superpowers to confound people. To that end, your apple example is misapplied; Jafar from Aladdin could do something like that, too, but he's not really in the Trickster archetype.

I actually can't think of many Loki-like shenanigans that any 5E character could do without custom game structures. E.g.


A builder was promised the sun, the moon and the goddess Freyja if he could build the walls of Asgard within a specific period of time. With the help of his magic stallion, the builder was dangerously close to completing this job. Loki transformed himself into a beautiful female horse and lured the stallion away. Without the horse’s help the man realized the only way to complete the job was by assuming his true identity – that of a mountain giant. Unfortunately, giants and Thor do not mix. The Thunder God used his hammer to smash in the giant’s skull. As a bonus, Loki then gave birth to Sleipnir, the eight-legged horse.

This "trick" is a little bit about shapechanging (Trickery) and a lot about anticipating/manipulating others' reactions. Apparently Loki realizes that the man is really a giant, that Thor won't kill a man but will kill a giant, that Thor can't be persuaded of the giant's identity unless shown, the man can't do the job without his horse, that the man will transform back into a giant rather than fail in the job, that the horse can be seduced, and that seducing the horse will set off a chain of events which culminates in Thor's willingness to smash the giant's skill.

To the limited extent that 5E supports this kind of play at all, Trickery looks just as good as Knowledge. You can assume false shapes (Disguise Self, Polymorph) and you can... ask other people questions and try to discern their motivations and do things with them. With Knowledge, you'd be a little bit better at discerning surface level thoughts ("Thor is thinking, 'no, I cannot kill a human being'") and worse at the actual trickery part, so you might have to resort to something else like killing the horse.

[Trustypeaches]

It's a no-concentration, unlimited-use stealth buff which in conjunction with Pass Without Trace can let you do things like sneak the whole party including the clanky clanging paladin into the Painted Overlord's private quarters. It's far from the worst first level domain ability out there. Grave Cleric comes to mind as clearly worse.I'm sorry, Grave Cleric's Domain feature is worse?

I really hope you're talking about the fluffy ribbon feature, Eyes of the Grave, because Circle of Mortality is fantastic in a campaign where death is a credible threat.

[MaxWilson]

I'm sorry, Grave Cleric's Domain feature is worse?

I really hope you're talking about the fluffy ribbon feature, Eyes of the Grave, because Circle of Mortality is fantastic in a campaign where death is a credible threat.

No, it isn't fantastic. "Hooray, as your domain feature, you can leave a buddy unconscious, out of the fight, and at 0 HP and vulnerable to auto-crits instead of casting Healing Word." That's not something to use in a campaign where death is a credible threat. Or are you thinking of, "Hooray, when you cast Healing Word in that situation, you get four HP + WIS instead of rolling 1d4 + WIS"? (Yes, it scales, but not in an important way.)

Occasionally gaining a surprise round due to stealth is more valuable than either of those, in a campaign where death is a credible threat.

Edit: I'm also amused that the OP makes such a big deal out of martial weapons and heavy armor proficiency, neither of which matters very much unless you're multiclassing. Heavy armor gets you AC 20 instead of AC 19 at the cost of more MADness or worse mobility; martial weapons add between 0 and 2 points of damage per attack, but you have no multiattack so it doesn't really matter. You're just going to wind up fighting with Shillelagh or cantrips anyway.

[Nhorianscum]

No, it isn't fantastic. "Hooray, as your domain feature, you can leave a buddy unconscious, out of the fight, and at 0 HP and vulnerable to auto-crits instead of casting Healing Word." That's not something to use in a campaign where death is a credible threat. Or are you thinking of, "Hooray, when you cast Healing Word in that situation, you get four HP + WIS instead of rolling 1d4 + WIS"? (Yes, it scales, but not in an important way.)

Occasionally gaining a surprise round due to stealth is more valuable than either of those, in a campaign where death is a credible threat.

That is some slanted reasoning.

Edit: I like trickery, it's a pretty solid multi... but... grave is sorta double fudge Sunday delicious tippy top tier good. Comparing the two is a terrible idea.

Not sure how trickery is giving out a suprise round at xl1 consistantly with its game shattering "advantage to one dude"

[Trustypeaches]

No, it isn't fantastic. "Hooray, as your domain feature, you can leave a buddy unconscious, out of the fight, and at 0 HP and vulnerable to auto-crits instead of casting Healing Word." That's not something to use in a campaign where death is a credible threat. Or are you thinking of, "Hooray, when you cast Healing Word in that situation, you get four HP + WIS instead of rolling 1d4 + WIS"? (Yes, it scales, but not in an important way.)You're really underestimating the value of a guaranteed max-roll upcasted Cure Wounds; it puts characters in a much better position to defend themselves than a Healing Word can most of the time, especially when upcasted.

This feature simply makes your heals far more efficient and a lot more likely to bring an ally back into solid fighting condition, not prone to just fall over after another single hit. The bonus action spare the dying might as well be an afterthought with how strong the first half of this feature is.

EDIT: And again, this still isn't the ONLY thing that Grave Clerics get. They get Spare the Dying for free, and they get a flavor ability that's as situationally useful as the Ranger's Favored Enemy feature. I'd say as a whole this is still on the weaker side of 1st level Domain features, but to call it the worst? Nah...


Edit: I'm also amused that the OP makes such a big deal out of martial weapons and heavy armor proficiency, neither of which matters very much unless you're multiclassing. Heavy armor gets you AC 20 instead of AC 19 at the cost of more MADness or worse mobility; martial weapons add between 0 and 2 points of damage per attack, but you have no multiattack so it doesn't really matter. You're just going to wind up fighting with Shillelagh or cantrips anyway.My point is that to make the most out of Medium Armor you need 14 Dex. But you're stuck with simple weapons, the best of which are all strength. So you can't dump DEX or you suffer AC, and you can't dump strength or else you're stuck with a dagger and a light crossbow for offense, the latter of which costs you your shield and simply cancels out the advantage from Invoke Duplicity.

This means that if a Trickery wants good AC and good melee damage they want both DEX and STR, while Every other cleric domain with Divine Strike can dump one or the other and sacrifice neither AC nor melee damage output (for the most part). Trickery is the only exception. I wouldn't even bring it up if the domain had gotten Potent Spellcasting like every other Domain that has neither Heavy Armor or Martial Weapon proficiency (Grave, Light, Knowledge, Arcana).

It's not a huge deal, you aren't actually going to be using melee for your main damage output, but it's a really weird design choice and I don't understand the intent.

[Deathtongue]

Huh. Disguise Self is the #1 tool I'd want for social engineering, but Detect Thoughts is #2. Neither Trickery nor Knowledge cleric gets them both.The Knowledge cleric can hook themselves up with both the Deception Skill and a disguise kit, the latter of which you actually want to have if you want to do serious disguising besides 'I'm a warlock making myself look like a big armored fighter'. The Knowledge cleric easily wins this one.


I don't think 5E supports social engineering very well though, not without custom game structures and a lot of work from the DM.At the bare minimum, I'd want tools that doesn't immediately trigger a hostile reaction if I use them in front of people. The Knowledge Cleric's Channel Divinity takes care of this nicely. You are really selling the social engineering utility of Read Thoughts short. Not only does it completely lack spellcasting components, but you also get a free Suggestion as part of the deal. This is gold for any serious trickster, better than anything the Trickery domain cleric gets to that end.

I don't know why you keep bringing up Polymorph. Polymorph is a perfect example of what I'm talking about on how Trickery is counter-intuitive. It's a great spell in of itself, but Polymorph REALLY SUCKS in 5E for classic trickster archetype shenanigans. Because you gain the animal's intelligence and lose all of your proficiencies, stats, and spellcasting. Loki the Trickster Cleric isn't seducing anyone as an animal. Loki the Druid with the Charlatan background could. So could Loki the high-level Arcana Cleric with True Polymorph / Magic Jar / Shapechange. But Loki the Trickster Cleric? No.

[Trustypeaches]

I don't know why you keep bringing up Polymorph. Polymorph is a perfect example of what I'm talking about on how Trickery is counter-intuitive. It's a great spell in of itself, but Polymorph REALLY SUCKS in 5E for classic trickster archetype shenanigans. Because you gain the animal's intelligence and lose all of your proficiencies, stats, and spellcasting. Loki the Trickster Cleric isn't seducing anyone as an animal. Loki the Druid with the Charlatan background could. So could Loki the high-level Arcana Cleric with True Polymorph / Magic Jar / Shapechange. But Loki the Trickster Cleric? No.I'm pretty sure the "Trickster way" to use Polymorph would be to use it on OTHER people.

[Deathtongue]

I'm pretty sure the "Trickster way" to use Polymorph would be to use it on OTHER people.To what end? Now that you have your rival / angry mob leader / skeptical noble / gullible customer / greedy bandit polymorphed, now what?

[Snowbluff]

So, "I had a bad experience with one character = this archetype is bad"?
Impressive example of self-reflection mate.

Reminds me of so many Sorcerer threads...

Well, the point was you're mischaracterizing me, and continue to do so.
Considering you've no experience demonstrable and no evidence, I'm going to tread on your non argument.
*ahem*
Bards are better at this because they get more skills and expertise and illusions and enchantments.
Knowledge Clerics are better at this because they can gain a wider variety of skills.
Wizards are better at this because they get illusions and enchantments.
Sorcerers are better at this because they get illusions and enchantments.
Druids are better at this, they get polymorph and can turn into animals all of the time. They lack illusions but so does cleric.

Crazy I know. Basically any class would qualitatively do better than this archetype.

I've been knowledge of the game rules and experience with the domain and comparable options. I am the one in position who has provided evidence, anecdotal and theoretical to the weaknesses of this domain. I am the one who is capable of making these statements in this relationship.


Our experience differs. Okay, gonna break this down for you because it whooshed you so bad and I think you need to understand it for your own benefit for future arguments.

You said I was the only exception in the allegedly unanimous opinion that "Trickster Clerics are good."
I pointed out that I was not because there are other people who clearly think otherwise in this thread.
Your statement was empirically wrong and not a good way to start an argument, which is all I was saying.

[stoutstien]

Options to do what exactly? When you say "you need sneak? Got it. Deception. Check," what I hear is, "versatility." If you are building your character around sneakiness you've got those things already. (They're also fairly modest quantitative bonuses which don't answer the question I'm asking about what Trickery means to you.)

Right now all I'm hearing from you is "Non-Detection and Detect Thoughts," but as a Trickery cleric you've got Disguise Self, Pass Without Trace, and Modify Memory; as an Enchanter you'd have those PLUS Disguise Self, Polymorph, Modify Memory, Dimension Door, Major Image, Minor Illusion, and Invisibility. What kind of trickery are you thinking of where Non-Detection and Detect Thoughts (of all things) are key ingredients in your schemes? Let's say I've got a Trickery cleric with Stealth, Persuasion, Sleight of Hand, Insight and Deception proficiencies plus whatever. I've got Modify Memory, I've got Enhance Ability, I've got Pass Without Trace, I've got Polymorph. What exactly is it that I'd want to do that would make me go, "Boy, I sure wish I was a Knowledge cleric instead, I'd be so much trickier" but not make me say, "Boy, I sure wish I was an Enchanter X instead, I'd be so much trickier"?

I gave you an example already of how I view Loki-style trickery (Frost Giant/Purple Worm apple). What's something tricky you'd like to do with Trickery but can't?



In practice it's a non-issue because backgrounds let you get any skills you want.



It's a no-concentration, unlimited-use stealth buff which in conjunction with Pass Without Trace can let you do things like sneak the whole party including the clanky clanging paladin into the Painted Overlord's private quarters. It's far from the worst first level domain ability out there. Grave Cleric comes to mind as clearly worse.



Huh. Disguise Self is the #1 tool I'd want for social engineering, but Detect Thoughts is #2. Neither Trickery nor Knowledge cleric gets them both.

Thanks for explaining how you'd want to use instant proficiency--clearly you'd use it to fake competency, and I can see how that would be useful in certain cons.

I don't think 5E supports social engineering very well though, not without custom game structures and a lot of work from the DM.



I actually can't think of many Loki-like shenanigans that any 5E character could do without custom game structures. E.g.



This "trick" is a little bit about shapechanging (Trickery) and a lot about anticipating/manipulating others' reactions. Apparently Loki realizes that the man is really a giant, that Thor won't kill a man but will kill a giant, that Thor can't be persuaded of the giant's identity unless shown, the man can't do the job without his horse, that the man will transform back into a giant rather than fail in the job, that the horse can be seduced, and that seducing the horse will set off a chain of events which culminates in Thor's willingness to smash the giant's skill.

To the limited extent that 5E supports this kind of play at all, Trickery looks just as good as Knowledge. You can assume false shapes (Disguise Self, Polymorph) and you can... ask other people questions and try to discern their motivations and do things with them. With Knowledge, you'd be a little bit better at discerning surface level thoughts ("Thor is thinking, 'no, I cannot kill a human being'") and worse at the actual trickery part, so you might have to resort to something else like killing the horse.

so you find great roleplaying ways to work around a domain that is weak. cool.
what happens when the rogue already has advantage on stealth checks? needs help on a deception check( a form of trickery)? needs a little inside info to intimidate the duke?( yet another form of trickery)? all things a knowledge cleric can do while doing other things at the same time.

backgrounds are a wash at least or in most cases help the know cleric more due to having more skills to begin with. +2 skills with expertise means floating 2 picks look stealth and deception before background. looks like know get perception and insight too

at lv one stealth is good. now go "trick" a creature with true sight with trickery clerics. at least the know clerics can recall lore to help with the encounter then could potentially just mind meld it and end it at that.

if you believe trickery = only stealth then yea its fine .

[Trustypeaches]

To what end? Now that you have your rival / angry mob leader / skeptical noble / gullible customer / greedy bandit polymorphed, now what?I feel like you have a narrow view of "trickery".

Turning creatures into animals in itself is one of the most classical forms of trickery employed by gods across multiple mythologies, both to humiliate their foes or empower their allies. That you can't imagine the kinds of shenanigans one could get up to with this demonstrates a dreadful lack of imagination.

Polymorph an ally into a tiny mouse to sneak them into a secure facility. Or turn a enemy with information into a mouse and cage him so you can sneak him out of a secure facility. Approach a disgruntled, goblin slave in the orc encampment and tell him you can grant him amazing power to finally show up all the orcs, before polymorphing into a T-rex (from a safe distance) so he can serve as a distraction for your party as they sneak out.

Or hell, just turn people who displease you into animals for sh*ts and giggles.

[Galactkaktus]

The main feature of spellcasting classes is their spells and i think that trickery domain has the best domain spells in the phb. So i really can't agree that they are bad i think it's the best domain in the phb.

[stoutstien]

I feel like you have a narrow view of "trickery".

Turning creatures into animals in itself is one of the most classical forms of trickery employed by gods across multiple mythologies, both to humiliate their foes or empower their allies. That you can't imagine the kinds of shenanigans one could get up to with this demonstrates a dreadful lack of imagination.

Polymorph an ally into a tiny mouse to sneak them into a secure facility. Or turn a enemy with information into a mouse and cage him so you can sneak him out of a secure facility. Approach a disgruntled, goblin slave in the orc encampment and tell him you can grant him amazing power to finally show up all the orcs, before polymorphing into a T-rex (from a safe distance) so he can serve as a distraction for your party as they sneak out.

Or hell, just turn people who displease you into animals for sh*ts and giggles.

sooooooo something any full caster can do? yep strike vs the domain again

[KorvinStarmast]

sooooooo something any full caster can do? yep strike vs the domain again What other Cleric can do this?

[Trustypeaches]

sooooooo something any full caster can do? yep strike vs the domain again
I'm not arguing that the Trickster domain is better at Polymorph Trickery than other full spellcasters; I was arguing that Polymorph lends itself to Tricksy shenanigans, regardless of who uses it.

I thought I've well established at this point that I feel the Trickery Domain's class features need more Trickery.

[MaxWilson]

This means that if a Trickery wants good AC and good melee damage they want both DEX and STR, which makes you more MAD than any other cleric domain who can simply dump one or the other. That's what I consider weirdly designed about the subclass, since NO other cleric domain that has Divine Strike instead of Potent Spellcasting has this problem.

You're a cleric. You will never have good damage. You get the same (meager) damage bonus at range with a light crossbow as you would in melee anyway.

A cleric who pumps Str or Dex to boost his damage is an idiot. You pump Dex to 14 for AC 19 (17 when wielding a crossbow), or you pump Str to 15 for AC 20, but doing both is crazy. And arguably the Dex route is better anyway due to saves/initiative/skills. There are certainly people who prefer Dex over Str.

[KorvinStarmast]

You're a cleric. You will never have good damage. You get the same (meager) damage bonus at range with a light crossbow as you would in melee anyway.

A cleric who pumps Str or Dex to boost his damage is an idiot. You pump Dex to 14 for AC 19 (17 when wielding a crossbow), or you pump Str to 15 for AC 20, but doing both is crazy. And arguably the Dex route is better anyway due to saves/initiative/skills. There are certainly people who prefer Dex over Str.
Yeah. Pump Wisdom. Get the spell DC as high as can be.

[MaxWilson]

At the bare minimum, I'd want tools that doesn't immediately trigger a hostile reaction if I use them in front of people. The Knowledge Cleric's Channel Divinity takes care of this nicely. You are really selling the social engineering utility of Read Thoughts short. Not only does it completely lack spellcasting components, but you also get a free Suggestion as part of the deal. This is gold for any serious trickster, better than anything the Trickery domain cleric gets to that end.

I don't know why you're mentioning the Suggestion thing in the context of "not triggering a hostile reaction." The Knowledge Cleric's "free Suggestion" still requires VM components--it just doesn't cost a spell slot. For trickery purposes, it is exactly as tricky as a regular Suggestion, and less tricky than a Subtle Suggestion.

I think you're overestimating Disguise Kit's utility, especially when you only get the proficiency for ten minutes at a time. Good luck disguising yourself as Thor when you go arrange Baldur's murder.


I don't know why you keep bringing up Polymorph. Polymorph is a perfect example of what I'm talking about on how Trickery is counter-intuitive. It's a great spell in of itself, but Polymorph REALLY SUCKS in 5E for classic trickster archetype shenanigans. Because you gain the animal's intelligence and lose all of your proficiencies, stats, and spellcasting. Loki the Trickster Cleric isn't seducing anyone as an animal. Loki the Druid with the Charlatan background could. So could Loki the high-level Arcana Cleric with True Polymorph / Magic Jar / Shapechange. But Loki the Trickster Cleric? No.

I don't want to repeat myself so I'll forebear.

[Trustypeaches]

You're a cleric. You will never have good damage. You get the same (meager) damage bonus at range with a light crossbow as you would in melee anyway.

A cleric who pumps Str or Dex to boost his damage is an idiot. You pump Dex to 14 for AC 19 (17 when wielding a crossbow), or you pump Str to 15 for AC 20, but doing both is crazy. And arguably the Dex route is better anyway due to saves/initiative/skills. There are certainly people who prefer Dex over Str.If you actually read my post you'd see I'm not saying that clerics have worthwhile melee or that they should pump STR / DEX to improve their melee.

I'm simply pointing out that Trickery is the ONLY domain that gets Divine Strike (a weapon feature) but doesn't get either Heavy Armor Proficiency or Martial Weapons to reduce the MADness. So improving its AC and improving it's weapon damage are different stats, so it takes them even more investment to be as "passable" in melee as the other cleric domains. Now I agree, most clerics, especially Trickery, should just dump melee entirely, however what's especially odd is that on top of divine strike one of the main benefits of Invoke Duplicity is providing advantage to the cleric's attack rolls in melee range, which would ONLY apply to Inflict Wounds and melee attacks (assuming no multiclassing). So despite being markedly less well equipped for melee compared to every other Divine Strike domain, they have more features that reward melee than every other Divine Strike Domain short of War.

At the end of the day it's not terrible but it's just really really weird. It's a very odd inconsistency with the design of every other domain.

[Deathtongue]

Look, I never said that Polymorph wasn't versatile. It saves the domain from mediocrity. What I'm saying is that the spell doesn't appreciably enable the classic trickster archetype any more than most any other non-damaging spell.


Polymorph an ally into a tiny mouse to sneak them into a secure facility.Or use the reduce spell. Or stick them in a bag of holding. Or use Pass Without Trace. Or a teleportation spell.


Or turn a enemy with information into a mouse and cage him so you can sneak him out of a secure facility.Second verse, same as the first.


Approach a disgruntled, goblin slave in the orc encampment and tell him you can grant him amazing power to finally show up all the orcs, before polymorphing into a T-rex (from a safe distance) so he can serve as a distraction for your party as they sneak out.Huh? You can't polymorph a typical orc slave into a T-Rex, unless we're talking about CR 14 orcs with CR 9 slaves.


Or hell, just turn people who displease you into animals for sh*ts and giggles.That's not being a trickster. That's just slapstick.

[Son of A Lich!]

Okay, so when I think of "trickery" clerics, I expect Social grace (Hard to trick people if they already don't like you), a way to bend or outright break the rules in unusual niche ways, a degree of 'Luck', and abilities that require lateral thinking.

I think the best example of a character I would expect to be an excellent Trickery Cleric would be Indiana Jones. Sure, he doesn't always have a plan, but when he gets into the thick of a bad situation the thing that his opponents have to remember is that They Only THINK they have a Plan.

Trickery domain doesn't accomplish this at all.

I'm actually a little confused as to how they came up with this domain in the first place. The spells don't really work for the intended goal and actually make multiclassing into Rogue Redundant and Necessary simultaneously. Pass without a trace is great for getting the party in a place quietly. You still don't have anyway of dealing with things like Traps and guard dogs, because you don't have the follow up abilities natively within the package.

Of course, you could always just use these abilities ON the Rogue... But a Rogue that doesn't have this on lock is already suffering because they can't do what their class is meant to do well.



I love Critical Role, and I'm surprised that no one has brought up Jester in the discussion already. Jester is a Trickery Cleric, and a valued member of the team. I think that her player, Laura Bailey, should have rolled a Bard instead. Laura makes Jester work, and I'm not saying that the class is unplayable, but Nott out does Jester in trickery and that is a pity. There was a raid on the Platinum Dragon Temple, but lets keep in mind that took a LOT of DM buy in.

Had Jester been a Bard, she would have a great deal of Charisma to work with for her social situations. She would still have disguise self and the excellent suite of native Bard Buffs and Debuffs. She would still have had some healing (Laura states often that she never wanted to be the healer), and She would have Invisibility! And Hideous Laughter! And Vicious Mockery! and so many other effects that would really work well with Jester's intended play style.

I don't know, the Trickery Domain is a mess. It definitely needs some polish and maybe some homebrew. I think the Benign Transposition spell from 3e could have been a great tool in place of Blessing of the Trickster. I don't hate Invoke Duplicity, but it needs the most clarification of the whole domain. It really shouldn't be competing with Spiritual Weapon, because it lost that fight hard. I don't see Tricksters as being blasters, and the duplicate doesn't really add to that aside from new angles. Some out of combat utility, no doubt, but... I don't know, it's still lacking.

My overall score is that Bards, Rogues and Warlocks all do trickster's better - and Clerics should have new abilities that require lateral thinking to utilize.

2/10

[Galactkaktus]

If you actually read my post you'd see I'm not saying that clerics have worthwhile melee or that they should pump STR / DEX to improve their melee.

I'm simply pointing out that Trickery is the ONLY domain that gets Divine Strike (a weapon feature) but doesn't get either Heavy Armor Proficiency or Martial Weapons to reduce the MADness. It's a very odd inconsistency with the design of every other domain.

It's especially odd since one of the benefits of Invoke Duplicity is providing advantage to the cleric's attack rolls in melee range, which would ONLY apply to Inflict Wounds and melee attacks (assuming no multiclassing), as well as canceling out the disadvantage on Light Crossbow / Guiding Bolt.

At the end of the day it's not terrible but it's just really really weird.

What is wrong with daggers? Or shortsword for elves?

[Skylivedk]

Nope, except in your perception.

And most guides and a lot of players.


In a party where people play as a team, the monk or rogue who is sneaking can, for an hour, act as a superb scout and prevent the party from being surprised. (And as above, reduce the chance that Mr Paladin clanks away the attempt at surprise ...)

It's ok... A very limited ability though and utterly outshone by Pass without Trace. I'd increase it to include Slight of Hands and Deception as well. Maybe even scale the number of targets with cantrip scaling.


Advantage when casting Inflict Wounds is very handy. 4d6 damage does not suck. Excuse me? 4d6 does suck for a spell slot (14 average) - it's the damage of guiding bolt. I guess you mean 3d10 though (16,5) which still sucks (less than a GWM hit). In a few cases, it might be worth it.

As a rule of thumb, I cringe when I see the player in my group use either. That's a perfectly good bless, shield of faith, sanctuary or healing word he's tossing it the window for damage that could have been done without using a long rest resource



Too many ways to count. [/QUOTE
It's invis... They could have made it pr WIS modifier and it would have broken nothing at all.

[QUOTE=KorvinStarmast;23515534]
Yeah. Psychic damage would have been so much better.
Agreed.

[MaxWilson]

If you actually read my post you'd see I'm not saying that clerics have worthwhile melee or that they should pump STR / DEX to improve their melee.

Read it, responded to it, don't want to repeat myself.


I'm simply pointing out that Trickery is the ONLY domain that gets Divine Strike (a weapon feature) but doesn't get either Heavy Armor Proficiency or Martial Weapons to reduce the MADness. So improving its AC and improving it's weapon damage are different stats, so it takes them even more investment to be as "passable" in melee as the other cleric domains.

Responded to this already.


Now I agree, most clerics, especially Trickery, should just dump melee entirely, however what's especially odd is that on top of divine strike one of the main benefits of Invoke Duplicity is providing advantage to the cleric's attack rolls in melee range, which would ONLY apply to Inflict Wounds and melee attacks (assuming no multiclassing).

You're a cleric. You have crummy damage. If you're going to use a Channel Divinity and your concentration to gain advantage, don't waste that advantage on melee weapon attacks. Use it for Contagion + Spiritual Weapon, or at least for Inflict Wounds + Spiritual Weapon.

This is true even if you do for some reason have martial weapon proficiency. A rapier with an extra +d8 damage is still unimpressive.

==================================


To what end? Now that you have your rival / angry mob leader / skeptical noble / gullible customer / greedy bandit polymorphed, now what?

This is exactly the question I keep asking about Knowledge domain, and all I get in response is crickets. "Now what?"

Here's one answer for Trickery cleric or Enchanter: now you take the frog that used to be the skeptical noble, you put him in a jar full of moldy cheese, and you parade him around in front of the town for a bit before chucking him in a pig trough and teleport away while he's dodging the pigs until one of them bites him hard enough to turn back into a noble.

Then you take off your Disguise Self spell and laugh yourself silly about the skeptical noble who now has a grudge against Merlin the King's Friend instead of you.

Is it a great, tricky plot? No, it's pretty dumb and simplistic. But it's better than anything I've heard for Knowledge domain so far.

5E isn't a good game for tricks. It's too oriented around the premise that the right solution is any problem is to reduce the problem to 0 HP. (Witness the complaint above about Tricksters not getting martial weapons proficiency and heavy armor.)

[Citan]

Well, the point was you're mischaracterizing me, and continue to do so.
Considering you've no experience demonstrable and no evidence, I'm going to tread on your non argument.
*ahem*
Bards are better at this because they get more skills and expertise and illusions and enchantments.
Knowledge Clerics are better at this because they can gain a wider variety of skills.
Wizards are better at this because they get illusions and enchantments.
Sorcerers are better at this because they get illusions and enchantments.
Druids are better at this, they get polymorph and can turn into animals all of the time. They lack illusions but so does cleric.

Crazy I know. Basically any class would qualitatively do better than this archetype.

I've been knowledge of the game rules and experience with the domain and comparable options. I am the one in position who has provided evidence, anecdotal and theoretical to the weaknesses of this domain. I am the one who is capable of making these statements in this relationship.

Okay, gonna break this down for you because it whooshed you so bad and I think you need to understand it for your own benefit for future arguments.

You said I was the only exception in the allegedly unanimous opinion that "Trickster Clerics are good."
I pointed out that I was not because there are other people who clearly think otherwise in this thread.
Your statement was empirically wrong and not a good way to start an argument, which is all I was saying.
Well, no.
You've been acting like the opinion that "Trickery is a bad archetype" is established by facts and so widely shared it could be made universal statement, which is wrong on both accounts. Otherwise this thread would have died first page after the 5th or 6th chained "yes you're right".

Second, Knowledge Cleric is *NOT* better. Just because you can have proficiency in some extra skills does not mean you're directly better. If one wants to really play a trickster, it means he must be able to deceive someone. What skills are *really* useful for that? Deception, Sleight of Hand, Persuasion, Stealth?
That makes 4 skills. You can get two from background, one to three depending on race. It fits if you really want to make it yout daily bread and butter.

Third, we don't care that Bard is better at deception, or Druid better at polymorphing, than Trickery Cleric. It's as stupid an argument as anyone could get. It's like saying "Druid is better than Ranger at Conjuring Animals" or "Evoker is better than Light Cleric at blasting". Yeah, duh. Of course they are. It's in their design.
Because if you want to make stupid comparisons, it can go both ways: no Druid can revive people, Wizards can not even heal them. But hey, look, Light Cleric has Fireball and Wall of Fire, so we really need to compare both! Logical conclusion: "wow, Wizard suck so much at healing". Gg Sherlock.

The important thing is not that an hypothetic class would be better at doing some job than you, it's that *you* can do it in *your* party *right now*. And that's exactly what (most) Domains do: bringing you tools that are outside the usual comfort zone of a Cleric.
Otherwise, you would necessarily have to say that Arcane Trickster suck because it gets so few spells compared to a Wizard. That a Ranger or a Shadow Monk suck even harder because they get so few compared to a Druid. See the logical void here?

When you decide to play a Trickster Cleric, the important word is not Trickster, it's Cleric. It means you want to play a Cleric which has some duplicity/illusion related features. If you didn't want to play a Cleric, then don't pick it.
There is no "Trickster" class because, as is clear from the thread, different people put different meanings on it. So best way is to build it from scratch as multiclassing (Bard/Rogue probably, although Illusionist Wizard and Subtle Sorcerer are a thing) or homebrew.

By the way, I gave my arguments above in thread, at least things that could add a bit to everything else others said. You would have noticed it if you had bothered actually coming in with an open mind instead of starting with a definitively closed "it has been established as bad".
And I never said you were the only one either having a bad opinion of Tricksters. Just that you were not representative of any kind of unanimity. As the very lively existence of the thread proves much better than any words I could say.

To take your own words...
"Your statement was empirically wrong and not a good way to start an argument, which is all I was saying."

Anyways I don't have anything else constructive to bring so I'll let you all continue. ;)



5E isn't a good game for tricks. It's too oriented around the premise that the right solution is any problem is to reduce the problem to 0 HP. (Witness the complaint above about Tricksters not getting martial weapons proficiency and heavy armor.)
Is it from the game, or from the players? ;)
I'd say both.
Because I made several one-shots when not one drop of blood was dropped and the players enjoyed it much. :) And although there are certainly game systems better suited to focus on infiltration/thievery/social manipulation, it works in 5e.

[Skylivedk]

I feel like you have a narrow view of "trickery".

Turning creatures into animals in itself is one of the most classical forms of trickery employed by gods across multiple mythologies, both to humiliate their foes or empower their allies. That you can't imagine the kinds of shenanigans one could get up to with this demonstrates a dreadful lack of imagination.



The main feature of spellcasting classes is their spells and i think that trickery domain has the best domain spells in the phb. So i really can't agree that they are bad i think it's the best domain in the phb.


I think the spell list in general and polymorph specifically have been established to be good by both supporters and detractors of the archetype.

It's most of the other features that seem very meh.

As to the liveliness of the thread being an argument in itself for the strength of the archetype: I wouldn't count on that. Some posters defend the balance in 5e almost no matter the argument presented.

I've seen GWF with only base damage being called viable. Savage Attacker and TWF as well. It's like we're not all playing the game where Mordenkainen's Sword is a 7th level spell and any change to the rules is heresy.

To OP:
Maybe test the following:
- blessing of the trickster can affect more skills
- minor illusion is given at level 1
- remove divine strike
- make the invis WIS mod based

Maybe even throw in one extra skill proficiency. I'd try the other parts first.

[Citan]

I think the spell list in general and polymorph specifically have been established to be good by both supporters and detractors of the archetype.

It's most of the other features that seem very meh.

As to the liveliness of the thread being an argument in itself for the strength of the archetype: I wouldn't count on that. Some posters defend the balance in 5e almost no matter the argument presented.

I've seen GWF with only base damage being called viable. Savage Attacker and TWF as well. It's like we're not all playing the game where Mordenkainen's Sword is a 7th level spell and any change to the rules is heresy.

To OP:
Maybe test the following:
- blessing of the trickster can affect more skills
- minor illusion is given at level 1
- remove divine strike
- make the invis WIS mod based

Maybe even throw in one extra skill proficiency. I'd try the other parts first.
This seems a solid package for homebrew (honestly even the extra skill proficiency is fine balance-wise imo).

[Snowbluff]

Second, Knowledge Cleric is *NOT* better.

Third, we don't care that Bard is better than Trickery Cleric.

Well, no.
You've been acting like the opinion that "Trickery is a bad archetype" is established by facts and widely shared, which is wrong on both accounts. Otherwise this thread would have died first page after the 5th or 6th "yes you're right".

Checks out.



Second, Knowledge Cleric is *NOT* better. Just because you can have proficiency in some extra skills does not mean you're directly better. If one wants to really play a trickster, it means he must be able to deceive someone. What skills are *really* useful for that? Deception, Sleight of Hand, Persuasion, Stealth?
That makes 4 skills. You can get two from background, one to three depending on race. It fits. The problem is that to get these skills usually means giving up another skill you might want. Knowledge clerics get 2 more skills. So if you wanted to have like Nature or Arcana or History, you're going to be short skills unless you're a knowledge cleric.

So for more trickery, more skills is better because it reduces the relative cost of getting these skills.
So Knowledge Cleric is good.
These same applies to a certain extend to Arcane Cleric, who can pick up a few token illusions.



Third, we don't care that Bard is better than Trickery Cleric. It's as stupid an argument as anyone could get. It's like saying "Druid is better than Ranger at Conjuring Animals" or "Evoker is better than Light Cleric at blasting". Yeah, duh. Of course they are. It's in their design.
The important thing is not that an hypothetic class would be better at doing your job than you, it's that *you* can do it in *your* party *right now*.
We have to rate it based on something. It didn't provide anything against the other clerics past a few minute and asynergistic features. Since I don't think it's any better at what it's intended to do over other clerics, I'm rating it relative to other casters.


By the way, I gave my arguments above in thread, at least things that could add a bit to everything else others said. You would have noticed it if you had bothered actually coming in with an open mind instead of starting with a definitively closed "it has been established as bad".
And I never said you were the only one either having a bad opinion of Tricksters. Just that you were not representative of any kind of unanimity. As the very lively existence of the thread proves much better than any words I could say.

[quote]
To take your own words...
"Your statement was empirically wrong and not a good way to start an argument, which is all I was saying."

Well, no.
You've been acting like the opinion that "Trickery is a bad archetype" is established by facts and widely shared, which is wrong on both accounts. Otherwise this thread would have died first page after the 5th or 6th "yes you're right". http://www.quickmeme.com/img/5e/5ed8203b5d448035b98e7972a9ab35086ace35ff5c3cd170b4 395242b20162ae.jpg
I haven't made any empirical statements above. It's all obviously someone's opinion, so who gives a **** that it is an opinion. The other poster actually said "no one but you thinks this way," which was contrary to factual evidence.



Anyways I don't have anything else constructive to bring so I'll let you all continue. ;)
Yeah, much better. +1

[Trustypeaches]

Read it, responded to it, don't want to repeat myself.

You're a cleric. You have crummy damage. If you're going to use a Channel Divinity and your concentration to gain advantage, don't waste that advantage on melee weapon attacks. Use it for Contagion + Spiritual Weapon, or at least for Inflict Wounds + Spiritual Weapon.

This is true even if you do for some reason have martial weapon proficiency. A rapier with an extra +d8 damage is still unimpressiveI feel like you’re under the mistaken impression I think Cleric’s Melee damage matters. It doesn’t.

I’m just pointing out a weird inconsistency between Trickery and the other Domain’s with Divine Strike. That’s literally all I’m saying. It doesn’t make Trickery horribly worse, just weird and anomalous

As far as Spirituals Weapon goes, I checked and yeah it counts as the clerics attack so it’d get advantage. On the other hand, it requires the Cleric, the spiritual weapon, and the illusion all be within 5 feet of a target. Considering both your illusion and your spiritual weapon require your bonus action to move, this combo is really really easy to get out of, and really hard for the Cleric to set up again.

It could work in certain situations though

[Trustypeaches]

Just for fun, here's my idea for Trickery's Invoke Duplicity, or at least how I would write it.

Channel Divinity: Invoke Duplicity
Starting at 2nd level, as an action, you create a perfect illusion of yourself that lasts for 1 minute, or until you lose your concentration (as if you were concentrating on a spell). The illusion appears in an unoccupied space that you can see within 30 feet of you. As a free action, you can move the illusion up to your move speed to a space you can see, but it must remain within 60 feet of you.

For the duration, you can cast spells and speak as though you were in the illusion’s space, but you must use your own senses. Additionally, as an action, you may swap positions with your illusion if you can see it. This swap is done perfectly so it is impossible to tell that you have swapped places, and can be done before or after moving yourself or your illusion.

The illusion is utterly indistinguishable from you. Physical contact with the illusion reveals it to be false, but does not make it disappear, and does not make the one who made contact with it any better at discerning the illusion.Removing the kinda unwieldy melee-range advantage just made sense to me, while allowing you to swap with your illusion for an action (or possibly action) really plays up the mind games angle of the skill, giving you a concrete way to continuously screw with your foes. This might be considered too strong compared to other channel divinities, but considering this takes your concentration I feel like it's fine.

Possibly instead of "swapping" you could use a bonus action to call the illusion back to you, so that when you move apart it's indeterminable which is the illusion again.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Blessing of the trickster is huge. Make the guy who thought heavy armor is cool not screw up your ambushes. Ambushing can heavily tip many very difficult encounters in your favor.

The spell list is superb. That alone makes trickery not suck.

People seem to play opening monster rooms too much...

[stoutstien]

Just for fun, here's my idea for Trickery's Invoke Duplicity, or at least how I would write it.
Allowing you to swap with your illusion for an action (or possibly action) really plays up the mind games angle of the skill, giving you a concrete way to continuously screw with your foes. This might be considered too strong compared to other channel divinities, but considering this takes your concentration I feel like it's fine. Possibly instead of "swapping" you could use a bonus action to call the illusion back to you, so that when you move apart it's indistinguishable which is the illusion again.

any reduction in action economy usage would help a lot. but the lack of guidelines still makes it hard to see use table to table.
do creatures waste Aoo on duplicates?

[Son of A Lich!]

Just for fun, here's my idea for Trickery's Invoke Duplicity, or at least how I would write it.
Allowing you to swap with your illusion for an action (or possibly action) really plays up the mind games angle of the skill, giving you a concrete way to continuously screw with your foes. This might be considered too strong compared to other channel divinities, but considering this takes your concentration I feel like it's fine. Possibly instead of "swapping" you could use a bonus action to call the illusion back to you, so that when you move apart it's indistinguishable which is the illusion again.

Range! add in something like: you need to stay within, let's say 60 ft of each other. Otherwise, this is basically a free Simulacrum but at level 2 that can't be killed.

(Never mind, I thought you skipped that, and skimmed past the time duration but you covered those as well. Well done!)

This seems like a pretty solid play. I would rather use this over the original's, but the rest of the original still needs a bit more work in many other areas.

At least Trickery would have a solid niche that other builds weren't able to do.

[Trustypeaches]

Range! add in something like: you need to stay within, let's say 60 ft of each other. Otherwise, this is basically a free Simulacrum but at level 2 that can't be killed.

(Never mind, I thought you skipped that, and skimmed past the time duration but you covered those as well. Well done!)

This seems like a pretty solid play. I would rather use this over the original's, but the rest of the original still needs a bit more work in many other areas.

At least Trickery would have a solid niche that other builds weren't able to do.
If I were to change anything else, I'd make the following changes.


Tricks of the Trade
When you choose this domain at 1st level, you gain the Minor Illusion cantrip if you don't already know it. You also gain proficiency in one of the following skills of your choice: Deception, Stealth, or Sleight of Hand.

Channel Divinity: Cloak of Shadows
Starting at 6th level, as an action, you become invisible until the end of your next turn. You become visible if you attack or cast a spell.

You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
I don't see why they need to tie 6 seconds of invisibility to your Channel Divinities, it's not that potent an affect. And it pisses me off to no end that Arcana can get Minor Illusion but Trickery Domain doesn't.

[Son of A Lich!]

The spell list is superb. That alone makes trickery not suck.

People seem to play opening monster rooms too much...

:belkar: On 3.5e Monks: Congratulations; your class abilities make you slightly less worse fighting unarmed then a fighter with literally any weapon. Flurry of Blows means you get to miss more times every round!

The spell list is asynergistic to just playing a class with the skills already built in. I'm 70% confident that every spell on the spell list is found on the Bard's spell list, and that begs the question of why aren't you playing bard.

This is why everyone wants illusions on the spell list. Illusions are versatile and you need versatility to fix problems.

[MaxWilson]

:belkar: On 3.5e Monks: Congratulations; your class abilities make you slightly less worse fighting unarmed then a fighter with literally any weapon. Flurry of Blows means you get to miss more times every round!

The spell list is asynergistic to just playing a class with the skills already built in. I'm 70% confident that every spell on the spell list is found on the Bard's spell list, and that begs the question of why aren't you playing bard.

This is why everyone wants illusions on the spell list. Illusions are versatile and you need versatility to fix problems.

If you're saying that clerics are bad, I agree. Clerics are bad and need to die in a fire. A game without clerics or NPC purported gods is a better game on multiple levels. Robert E. Howard's stories didn't have any "gods." Neither did Tolkien's. Greek gods are entertaining, but only in stories where they are the protagonists. A D&D game about mortal agency in a world where Greek gods are active on the stage is a game where nothing you can do really matters compared to the whims of the gods (which is sort of the point from a mythic Greek standpoint but makes for a stupid game).

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a game where clerics don't exist. Bards, wizards, warlocks, and druids more than suffice to fill all the necessary magical fantasy archetypes. Frankly even bards and warlocks are redundant.

Edit: blue text for hyperbole, because Poe's Law.

[Son of A Lich!]

If I were to change anything else, I'd make the following changes.



I don't see why they need to tie 6 seconds of invisibility to your Channel Divinities, it's not that potent an affect. And it pisses me off to no end that Arcana can get Minor Illusion but Trickery Domain doesn't.

I'd make the channel divinity swapping with an allied character's position.

Invisibility can have uses, but if you don't have sneak attack damage, it looses a lot of it's combat potential. Dictating the battlefield (Like, say, Swapping the Wizard with yourself, So you are in Melee with armor and a shield and the Wizard doesn't need to risk an AoO) is more helpful to everyone and can be used laterally in a number of ways (Like, if the Rogue is locked in prison, you could swap positions with him to use your lock pick and he is free to run away. Then you can use Invoke Duplicity out the window and swap with the dupe and dismiss the Duplicate).

That, plus skills, tools and a couple of illusions would be great. It sounds like it'd be a lot of fun.

[Galactkaktus]

There is nothing wrong with using cloak of shadow with spirit guardian if you want combat applicatins for it.

[R.Shackleford]

There's nothing wrong with Blessing of the Trickster on it's own (although I wish you had the choice of granting advantage on Stealth, Sleight of Hand, and Deception for more versatility).

The problem is that it's ALL Tricksters get at level 1, which is hilariously little compared to any other Domain.

I'm not 100% sure you'd get advantage on your spiritual weapon strikes, but even if you did, the fact they both require bonus actions to maneuver and use is limiting.

And the problem with concentration isn't that it's hard to maintain, it's that it competes with the cleric's best spells: spiritual guardians, bless, and the Trickster's Polymorph.

Blessing of the Trickster is super useful as it's at-will and doesn't eat up your channel divinity. Group stealth rolls just got better even if you aren't going to go full on trickster god.

You most definately do get advantage to attacks with spiritual weapon. It doesn't say weapon attacks, it doesn't say spell attacks, it says "attacks".

"Additionally, when both you and your illusion are within 5 feet of a creature that can see the illusion, you have advantage on attack rolls against that creature, given how distracting the illusion is to the target."

[Trustypeaches]

Blessing of the Trickster is super useful as it's at-will and doesn't eat up your channel divinity. Group stealth rolls just got better even if you aren't going to go full on trickster god.Again, it's not bad. It's just not very much considering it's all Tricksters get at first level. I think the domain should've gotten a free cantrip (Minor illusion, maybe Mage Hand) or a proficiency in deception / stealth / sleight of hand placed on top of that to put it on level ground with the rest of the domains.


You most definately do get advantage to attacks with spiritual weapon. It doesn't say weapon attacks, it doesn't say spell attacks, it says "attacks".

"Additionally, when both you and your illusion are within 5 feet of a creature that can see the illusion, you have advantage on attack rolls against that creature, given how distracting the illusion is to the target."
Yeah I double checked. I was unsure because I didn't know if the Spiritual Weapon counted as it's own creature making it's own attacks or if it's attacks were the Cleric's

On the other hand, you would need the cleric, the cleric's illusion, and the spiritual weapon to all be within 5 feet of the target. And since both the illusion and the spiritual weapon require the use of a bonus action to move, it seems really awkward and unwieldy to reposition if your original target moves or if you need to change targets.

It seems like I could be situationally useful, though

[R.Shackleford]

Again, it's not bad. It's just not very much considering it's all Tricksters get at first level. I think the domain should've gotten a free cantrip (Minor illusion, maybe Mage Hand) or a proficiency in deception / stealth / sleight of hand placed on top of that to put it on level ground with the rest of the domains.


Yeah I double checked. I was unsure because I didn't know if the Spiritual Weapon counted as it's own creature making it's own attacks or if it's attacks were the Cleric's

On the other hand, you would need the cleric, the cleric's illusion, and the spiritual weapon to all be within 5 feet of the target. And since both the illusion and the spiritual weapon require the use of a bonus action to move, it seems really awkward and unwieldy to reposition if your original target moves or if you need to change targets.

It seems like I could be situationally useful, though

Enemies tend to come to the player, having the illusion next to you when a creature comes up to you means that you should be attacking it. Casting Spiritual Weapon as a bonus action and then performing a weapon attack is a good option.

Trickster is actually best on multiclassing tho.

[Deathtongue]

This is exactly the question I keep asking about Knowledge domain, and all I get in response is crickets. "Now what?"
Eh? What do you mean, now what?

Let's go back to your rival. Here's what you can do with RT/KotA: Seduce his lover. Outperform him at a social dance. Beat him at a flashy casino game James Bond-style. Or, hell, you have a Channel Divinity that doesn't have spell components. Aside from the many things you could do with Suggestion, you can read his surface thoughts. Do you know what kind of edge that gives you in social engineering? You could just straight up ask him his most embarrassing moment or if he had any embarrassing affairs or if he's planning on betraying the king.

Now extend that for the rest of the people in your list. Angry mob leader can be convinced (with a properly poached Intimidate or Persuasion) or 'convinced' with Thought of Ages to stand down. A skeptical noble can be blackmailed by stealing his secrets. A gullible customer can be convinced that you know something about jewelry/metalwork/price of tea in china with a skill you pulled out of your butt.

I am seriously baffled by how little you think of Read Thoughts and Knowledge of the Ages. In a typical dungeon crawl, sure, they're not really that big of a deal. But in a roleplay-heavy game that relies on you outmaneuvering your antagonists? I.e. the essence of the Trickster archetype? Both are solid gold if you put some thought into it.

[Zalabim]

I like playing tricksy casters. Trickery cleric is the absolute bottom rung of this. One of my first characters I played was a trickster cleric, and I know it's awful for what we think it's supposed to do.
Given it was one of your first characters, you probably suffered from not knowing what a trickery cleric is supposed to do. Some of that is on the class for not being as obvious as it could be in what it's supposed to do. I think you picked up on a lot of its cues though and just dismissed them or didn't follow through to their conclusion.

I'm not sure DIvine Strike is at all appropriate. I would think the cantrip bonus is better for someone hiding than a melee only attack.
You think someone that's hiding should csll divine fire from the heavens rather than make an attack that gets advantage from being hidden? That seems like a weird preference. Also, divine strike is not melee only.


My point is that to make the most out of Medium Armor you need 14 Dex. But you're stuck with simple weapons, the best of which are all strength. So you can't dump DEX or you suffer AC, and you can't dump strength or else you're stuck with a dagger and a light crossbow for offense, the latter of which costs you your shield and simply cancels out the advantage from Invoke Duplicity.

This means that if a Trickery wants good AC and good melee damage they want both DEX and STR, while Every other cleric domain with Divine Strike can dump one or the other and sacrifice neither AC nor melee damage output (for the most part). Trickery is the only exception. I wouldn't even bring it up if the domain had gotten Potent Spellcasting like every other Domain that has neither Heavy Armor or Martial Weapon proficiency (Grave, Light, Knowledge, Arcana).

It's not a huge deal, you aren't actually going to be using melee for your main damage output, but it's a really weird design choice and I don't understand the intent.
Divine strike is not melee only, and I think you do understand the design intent without realizing it. The intent is that the best weapons for trickery clerics are daggers and light crossbows.

I'm simply pointing out that Trickery is the ONLY domain that gets Divine Strike (a weapon feature) but doesn't get either Heavy Armor Proficiency or Martial Weapons to reduce the MADness. So improving its AC and improving it's weapon damage are different stats, so it takes them even more investment to be as "passable" in melee as the other cleric domains. Now I agree, most clerics, especially Trickery, should just dump melee entirely, however what's especially odd is that on top of divine strike one of the main benefits of Invoke Duplicity is providing advantage to the cleric's attack rolls in melee range, which would ONLY apply to Inflict Wounds and melee attacks (assuming no multiclassing). So despite being markedly less well equipped for melee compared to every other Divine Strike domain, they have more features that reward melee than every other Divine Strike Domain short of War.

At the end of the day it's not terrible but it's just really really weird. It's a very odd inconsistency with the design of every other domain.
Trickery clerics use Dexterity for both their AC and their weapon damage. There's no particular MAD going on. As I've said, none of their features require melee attacks. I think the intention for invoke duplicity is the first benefit it offers you, not the last. You can cast spells as if you were in its space, letting you use close range and melee spells (which the cleric list is fond of) without putting yourself in danger. Then if you do find yourself in the danger zone with it, or put yourself there, you get advantage on your attacks.

As to the liveliness of the thread being an argument in itself for the strength of the archetype: I wouldn't count on that. Some posters defend the balance in 5e almost no matter the argument presented.

I've seen GWF with only base damage being called viable. Savage Attacker and TWF as well. It's like we're not all playing the game where Mordenkainen's Sword is a 7th level spell and any change to the rules is heresy.
GWF is viable. Savage attacker is I guess something if you want to boost your average damage, have 20 in your primary attribute, and don't want to marry a specific weapon. TWF is viable for some, just not the ones you'd expect, Mordenkainen's Sword has no excuses, and there's a bit of a difference between viable and optimal that I think you'd have to neglect to complain about GWF, but the fighting style can certainly be both. It just depends on your goal. I guess some people will complain about the balance of some features even if they can be proven wrong.

[MaxWilson]

Eh? What do you mean, now what?

Let's go back to your rival. Here's what you can do with RT/KotA: Seduce his lover. Outperform him at a social dance. Beat him at a flashy casino game James Bond-style. Or, ----, you have a Channel Divinity that doesn't have spell components. Aside from the many things you could do with Suggestion, you can read his surface thoughts. Do you know what kind of edge that gives you in social engineering? You could just straight up ask him his most embarrassing moment or if he had any embarrassing affairs or if he's planning on betraying the king.

Now extend that for the rest of the people in your list. Angry mob leader can be convinced (with a properly poached Intimidate or Persuasion) or 'convinced' with Thought of Ages to stand down. A skeptical noble can be blackmailed by stealing his secrets. A gullible customer can be convinced that you know something about jewelry/metalwork/price of tea in china with a skill you pulled out of [nowhere].

I am seriously baffled by how little you think of Read Thoughts and Knowledge of the Ages. In a typical dungeon crawl, sure, they're not really that big of a deal. But in a roleplay-heavy game that relies on you outmaneuvering your antagonists? I.e. the essence of the Trickster archetype? Both are solid gold if you put some thought into it.

It's not that I think little of Read Thoughts per se: it's that I'm frustrated by the (up till now) total vacuum of answers about your expectations for "trickery" and why you expect to get out of Knowledge that justifies the opportunity cost (all the tricks that you can't pull because you're a cleric and not a wizard). It seems clear from the above that the "trickery" shtick, to you, is about looking cooler than your rival by outperforming him in social situations and occasionally indulging a bit of blackmail. I don't really get how that's trickery per se, but at least now I know why you think Knowledge is cool, because clearly it does that.

I also note that an Enchanter (or better yet, Sorc 3/Enchanter X or Sorc 3/Illusionist 6+) is clearly a far better blackmailer/mind reader-style trickster than a Knowledge cleric is. That's exactly what I predicted would be the case in post #93 and it's good to have that suspicion confirmed.

[stoutstien]

Doesn't matter if divine strike is ranged or not 1/2 the game is immune to poison. It was a bad move by the design team.

[Deathtongue]

I don't really get how that's trickery per se, but at least now I know why you think Knowledge is cool, because clearly it does that.With all due respect: what the hell are you talking about? Getting the better of people through honeyed words, manipulation, social engineering, misdirection, and stealing secrets is literally the essence of the trickster archetype. If you looked at my long list of ways you can use the Knowledge domain to implement the Trickster Archetype in fundamental ways that the Trickery domain can't and are going 'well, I don't see a connection' -- I'm sorry, but I'm just going to have to conclude that you just plain don't understand this basic literary device.


I also note that an Enchanter (or better yet, Sorc 3/Enchanter X or Sorc 3/Illusionist 6+) is clearly a far better blackmailer/mind reader-style trickster than a Knowledge cleric is. That's exactly what I predicted would be the case in post #93 and it's good to have that suspicion confirmed.I'm not claiming that the Knowledge cleric is the best way to play a trickster. I think a Lore Bard or certain builds of Sorcerer is much better at it.

What I am claiming is that the Knowledge cleric is easily a better Trickster Archetype than the Trickery cleric, which is a pretty elementary failing of game design.

[MaxWilson]

With all due respect: what the ---- are you talking about? Getting the better of people through honeyed words, manipulation, social engineering, misdirection, and stealing secrets is literally the essence of the trickster archetype. If you looked at my long list of ways you can use the Knowledge domain to implement the Trickster Archetype in fundamental ways that the Trickery domain can't and are going 'well, I don't see a connection' -- I'm sorry, but I'm just going to have to conclude that you just plain don't understand this basic literary device.

I'm not claiming that the Knowledge cleric is the best way to play a trickster. I think a Lore Bard or certain builds of Sorcerer is much better at it.

What I am claiming is that the Knowledge cleric is easily a better Trickster Archetype than the Trickery cleric, which is a pretty elementary failing of game design.

What I am talking about is this:



Eh? What do you mean, now what?

Let's go back to your rival. Here's what you can do with RT/KotA: Seduce his lover. Outperform him at a social dance. Beat him at a flashy casino game James Bond-style. Or, ----, you have a Channel Divinity that doesn't have spell components. Aside from the many things you could do with Suggestion, you can read his surface thoughts. Do you know what kind of edge that gives you in social engineering? You could just straight up ask him his most embarrassing moment or if he had any embarrassing affairs or if he's planning on betraying the king.

Now extend that for the rest of the people in your list. Angry mob leader can be convinced (with a properly poached Intimidate or Persuasion) or 'convinced' with Thought of Ages to stand down. A skeptical noble can be blackmailed by stealing his secrets. A gullible customer can be convinced that you know something about jewelry/metalwork/price of tea in china with a skill you pulled out of [nowhere].

I am seriously baffled by how little you think of Read Thoughts and Knowledge of the Ages. In a typical dungeon crawl, sure, they're not really that big of a deal. But in a roleplay-heavy game that relies on you outmaneuvering your antagonists? I.e. the essence of the Trickster archetype? Both are solid gold if you put some thought into it.

It's not that I think little of Read Thoughts per se: it's that I'm frustrated by the (up till now) total vacuum of answers about your expectations for "trickery" and why you expect to get out of Knowledge that justifies the opportunity cost (all the tricks that you can't pull because you're a cleric and not a wizard). It seems clear from the above that the "trickery" shtick, to you, is about looking cooler than your rival by outperforming him in social situations and occasionally indulging a bit of blackmail. I don't really get how that's trickery per se, but at least now I know why you think Knowledge is cool, because clearly it does that.

I also note that an Enchanter (or better yet, Sorc 3/Enchanter X or Sorc 3/Illusionist 6+) is clearly a far better blackmailer/mind reader-style trickster than a Knowledge cleric is. That's exactly what I predicted would be the case in post #93 and it's good to have that suspicion confirmed.

BTW, social engineering is about using deception to steal secrets and manipulate people. Ripping secrets out of their head through supernatural abilities isn't social engineering at all, and IMO isn't very tricksterish. YMMV apparently.

[stoutstien]

What I am talking about is this:


Ok
I don't really get why you consider mind-control and social climbing "trickery", but at least your position is now clear. And I agree that the Trickery cleric isn't top-shelf at social climbing or mind control (and neither is the Knowledge cleric).
Can one trick without a social component? I mean how can you trick without a person to be tricked.

[MaxWilson]

Can one trick without a social component? I mean how can you trick without a person to be tricked.

Mind reading/control isn't trickery though. Trickery is a means to an end, manipulation through anticipation and deception, but if you bypass that means and jump straight to direct control, you're not a trickster. Charles Xavier is not a trickster like Coyote or Loki despite the fact that they can both make you do things and find out your secrets. With Coyote, you come away kicking yourself for not seeing through his schemes, but with Charles Xavier, you just come away feeling powerless and perhaps violated.

Intellect Devourers are not trickster mascots.

[stoutstien]

Mind reading/control isn't trickery though. Trickery is a means to an end, manipulation through anticipation and deception, but if you bypass that means and jump straight to direct control, you're not a trickster. Charles Xavier is not a trickster like Coyote or Loki despite the fact that they can both make you do things and find out your secrets. With Coyote, you come away kicking yourself for not seeing through his schemes, but with Charles Xavier, you just come away feeling powerless and perhaps violated.

Intellect Devourers are not trickster mascots.

So a man who ran a training program for mutant under the guise of a school wasn't a trickster? If I recall my old comic right he refused to use his powers to cause policy change in the government. Yea trickster is more snidely whiplash but it's very flat in flavor

[Deathtongue]

Mind reading/control isn't trickery though.A changeling's ability to shapeshift doesn't make them a trickster by itself. Nonetheless, if they want to be a trickster archetype, it's an incredible boon. People were (incorrectly) giving examples of how Polymorph enables that type of roleplay. And the same goes for mind reading/control. Having those things doesn't necessarily make you a trickster, but if that is your goal then it's an incredible means towards that end. In a way that powerful healing or being incredibly tough or shooting fireballs or even teleporting or instantly fabricating items is not.

Let's go back to just mind-reading. When you can read someone's mind, especially if they can't read yours, it gives you a huge edge in social interactions. Some examples:

Trickster General during parlay: By the way, when do you expect reinforcements?
Rival Mark: I'll never tell you! thinking: General Guy is experiencing delays.
Trickster General: Aw.

Trickster Witness: What makes you think I'm not going to walk?
Prosecutor: I'm asking the questions here! thinking: wait until I present the DNA evidence from my satchel after recess

Trickster: Your lieutenants seem pretty loyal to you. Except for Screamstar.
Bandit Leader: Screamstar is one of us! thinking: I don't trust him.

etc.

The Trickster can then use this knowledge they wouldn't otherwise have to take an opponent totally off guard. The Trickster General can do a daring raid while their rival is unprepared. They can steal the DNA evidence from the satchel that the prosecutor thinks they don't know about. They can make an offer to Screamstar to betray their boss. So on and so forth.

[LudicSavant]

Agreed, mind reading is a high value ability for a trickster. As is dealing with the divinations of others.

[Tanarii]

Nope, except in your perception.
#accurate & /thread 😂

[Trustypeaches]

#accurate & /thread 😂
Still waiting for you to explain how Invoke Duplicity isn't DM-dependent.

[Dark Schneider]

Well some things are clear about Invoke Duplicity:
- A perfect "yourself".
- Can move with bonus action.
- Cast spells from it.
- Requires concentration. (1 minute)
- Gives YOU advantage to attacks, not any other or your spiritual weapon (as I read). This is due that the image is just like you, that distracts the foe but only for you, is not like a help action.

The only thing I see DM dependant is how you could use as an image of yourself for other purposes. Can it talk? It can "talk" because can cast spells with V component, but can emit sounds for other purposes?
Also, if touched the trick would be discovered?, because it doesn't say about having touch sense included, but says "perfect illusion". So it is supposed it acts like you.

IMHO yes, a "perfect illusion" without specifing perfect "image illusion" means the duplicate is just like yourself, acts like you, and can be moved using the bonus action, other actions requires your action like if was yourself. But can it manipulate objects?, in this case I think not, because an illusion purpose is interact with other beings, but not manipulation.

[Tanarii]

Still waiting for you to explain how Invoke Duplicity isn't DM-dependent.
Still waiting for you to successfully "explain" how Invoke Duplicity is DM-dependent.

[Deathtongue]

So for Invoke Duplicity, just how 'real' is the illusion? Can it make noise? Does it shift about in place to mimic your movement within a 5' square? Can it pass through objects you can see through, like jail bars or a Wall of Force or a door with a keyhole? Can it be manifested off of the ground? Can it be MOVED off of the ground?

The utility of Invoke Duplicity can vary wildly depending on the answers to these questions. So it is a pretty DM-dependent effect.

That said, while I can see it being useful at a lot of tables without much DM interpretation, it's still not an ability that's particularly useful for roleplaying the Trickster archetype.

[Tanarii]

So for Invoke Duplicity, just how 'real' is the illusion? Can it make noise? Does it shift about in place to mimic your movement within a 5' square? Can it pass through objects you can see through, like jail bars or a Wall of Force or a door with a keyhole? Can it be manifested off of the ground? Can it be MOVED off of the ground?

The utility of Invoke Duplicity can vary wildly depending on the answers to these questions. So it is a pretty DM-dependent effect.So no more dependent than any spell or class feature, once you start trying to use it to do things not in the description.

[Deathtongue]

So no more dependent than any spell or class feature, once you start trying to use it to do things not in the description.Please name for me a cleric class feature, besides Divine Intervention, that has as much ambiguity as Invoke Duplicity. The closest I can come up with is Visions of the Past, depending on how your DM defines significant. And it's still not as ambiguous as Invoke Duplicity.

[Trustypeaches]

So no more dependent than any spell or class feature, once you start trying to use it to do things not in the description.
Still waiting for you to successfully "explain" how Invoke Duplicity is DM-dependent.
Keep in mind I'm only saying the "unlisted" uses of Invoke Duplicity involving the illusion are DM dependent, such as having your illusion distract enemies and possibly make them waste attacks, or so on. These are the uses other posters argue make the Trickery Domain effective.

If we just judge Invoke Duplicity based on what's present in the description, however, it stinks. You trade your concentration for a second point to cast spells from and conditional MELEE advantage.

[Trustypeaches]

I posted a homebrew revision of the domain in the homebrew forum if anyone was interested.

Link to Forum post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?574735-Trickery-Domain-Revision&p=23530126#post23530126)

Link straight to Homebrewery (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Byc0LK60Q)

[KorvinStarmast]

Okay, gonna break this down for you The plural of anecdote is not data. For your future reference. When you make badly supported generalizations, you can expect to be called on them. You were. My dislike of a great deal of the discourse on the GiTP forums has to do with the attempt to digitize and numerically pigeon hole every small element of a game that is NOT a computer game.
A key variable in any play experience is, for example, the campaign the group is playing in.
Guides, while helpful, are narrowly focused and do not represent the broad spectrum of play experience.
What some of them do, on the other hand, is aid and abet those who have a particular form of optimization in mind. Which is cool.
Your argumentum ad populum fails.

My core agreement with most of the commentary on this topic remains:
Divine Strike psychic damage would have made more sense to me. (Easily fixed at any table that cares to)

Beyond that, if you aren't having fun playing a Trickery Cleric, you must be doing it wrong. :smallyuk:

[Snowbluff]

The plural of anecdote is not data. For your future reference.
*rubs temples* The plural of anecdotes is not data, BUT the survey of people other than me not being 100% in agreement that "Trickery Cleric is good" is a fact. Hence, the fallacy doesn't apply because the statement is whether or not people agree with me, which directly contradicts your statement.


When you make badly supported generalizations, you can expect to be called on them. You were. My dislike of a great deal of the discourse on the GiTP forums has to do with the attempt to digitize and numerically pigeon hole every small element of a game that is NOT a computer game.
Then you provide evidence, which you did not, and your statement was blatantly evidence free and fact free. It's very light. Probably about as thinning as a celery diet.

The game is a system of logic like a computer game. Unless someone is homebrewing something, that is the logic we play with.


A key variable in any play experience is, for example, the campaign the group is playing in.
Guides, while helpful, are narrowly focused and do not represent the broad spectrum of play experience.
What some of them do, on the other hand, is aid and abet those who have a particular form of optimization in mind. Which is cool.
Your argumentum ad populum fails.

My core agreement with most of the commentary on this topic remains:
Divine Strike psychic damage would have made more sense to me. (Easily fixed at any table that cares to)

Beyond that, if you aren't having fun playing a Trickery Cleric, you must be doing it wrong. :smallyuk:

Quantification is a valuable tool. If there is nothing mechanical about a class that fulfills an objective better than a similiar option, the class is a just bad. The point of these discussions is only partially anecdotal. The content of the class is the only thing that can be considered generally consistent between tables (and saying it's fine because of a fix is Oberoni). The Trickster Cleric is qualitatively bad at what it does, and is deficient at performing it's character archetype it's designed for compare to a broad list of other classes that do the same thing but better.

I think we all agree we can still watch an awful movie or play an awful game with some friends and still have fun. That doesn't make the game or movie any better than it is. If you're having fun, that's ok, but don't say that it necessarily means something is good.

[Trustypeaches]

Beyond that, if you aren't having fun playing a Trickery Cleric, you must be doing it wrong. :smallyuk:Clearly, the pinnacle of argumentation

[KorvinStarmast]

Clearly, the pinnacle of argumentation Clearly, you utterly missed the point of the blue text. (On this forum, it is an indication of humor) :smallwink: I was trying to end the post on a light note.

[KorvinStarmast]

*rubs temples* The plural of anecdotes is not data, BUT the survey of people other than me not being 100% in agreement that "Trickery Cleric is good" is a fact. You don't have to be "100% good" to be good. You have now moved toward a rather useless, zero defects standard, which I think neither of us would have championed when this discussion began.
There isn't a single cleric domain that isn't good as a PC class, since the cleric class in general is good. How well Trickery fits into your group, and into your campaign, has a pretty big error band which is part of why the guides and optimization efforts are at best "only partly good." That you place higher value on them isn't of any use to anyone but you.

Beyond that, I think we are at an impasse.

[Trustypeaches]

Clearly, you utterly missed the point of the blue text. (On this forum, it is an indication of humor) :smallwink: I was trying to end the post on a light note.Blue text is sarcasm?

What kind of backwards hell is this place?

[KorvinStarmast]

Blue text is sarcasm?

What kind of backwards hell is this place? No worries, my friend, it took me a few months to cotton to that local convention. Glad I could be of help.
Going back to Yorrin's guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374604-The-Devout-and-the-Dead-a-guide-to-Clerics), I am doing a thought experiment regarding dropping the concentration requirement for the Invoke Duplicity. It's a channel divinity thing ... I'll think about that for a bit. Trying to see what kind of loophole that might create.

[Trustypeaches]

No worries, my friend, it took me a few months to cotton to that local convention. Glad I could be of help.
Going back to Yorrin's guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374604-The-Devout-and-the-Dead-a-guide-to-Clerics), I am doing a thought experiment regarding dropping the concentration requirement for the Invoke Duplicity. It's a channel divinity thing ... I'll think about that for a bit. Trying to see what kind of loophole that might create.
Casting Spirit Guardians from your duplicate is the only thing I can think of being cheesy

[KorvinStarmast]

Casting Spirit Guardians from your duplicate is the only thing I can think of being cheesy I think it would be neat, but IIRC the duplicate once hit is revealed to be an illusion.
Or does it?
If not, that would be tres cool as cheese.
edit ...
Hmm, nope.


As an action, you create a perfect illusion⁠ of yourself that lasts for 1 minute, or until you lose your Concentration (as if you were concentrating on a spell).
The illusion⁠ appears in an unoccupied space that you can see within 30 feet of you.
As a Bonus Action on Your Turn, you can move the illusion⁠ up to 30 feet to a space you can see, but it must remain within 120 feet of you. I can think of some other fun, but maybe there's more cheese in removing concentration from this than I appreciate.

[Trustypeaches]

I think it would be neat, but IIRC the duplicate once hit is revealed to be an illusion.
Or does it?
If not, that would be tres cool as cheese.
edit ...
Hmm, nope.

I can think of some other fun, but maybe there's more cheese in removing concentration from this than I appreciate.I think the better solution would be to make it worth the concentration.

Here's what I'd do with it:

Channel Divinity: Invoke Duplicity
Starting at 2nd level, as an action, you create a perfect illusion of yourself that lasts for 1 minute, or until you lose your concentration (as if you were concentrating on a spell). The illusion appears in an unoccupied space that you can see within 30 feet of you. On your turn, you can move the illusion up to your movement speed to a space you can see, but it must remain within 60 feet of you.

For the duration, you can cast spells and speak as though you were in the illusion’s space, but you must use your own senses. Additionally, as an action, you may swap positions with your illusion if you can see it. This swap is done perfectly so it is impossible to tell that you have swapped places, and can be done before or after moving yourself or your illusion.

The illusion is utterly indistinguishable from you, and cannot be destroyed or dispelled. Physical contact with the illusion reveals it to be false, but does not make it disappear, and does not make the one who made contact with it any better at discerning the illusion.

[Beechgnome]

See, this has always been my understanding of the spell. Nothing in it's description says it disappears, only that it doesn't hold up to physical inspection.

So by all means ignore the duplicate wading through the battlefield...it can still inflict wounds on you and can't be harmed in any way... though it can be dispelled and can be gotten rid of if you lose concentration.

Isn't that how others read it?

[KorvinStarmast]

See, this has always been my understanding of the spell. Nothing in it's description says it disappears, only that it doesn't hold up to physical inspection.

So by all means ignore the duplicate wading through the battlefield...it can still inflict wounds on you and can't be harmed in any way... though it can be dispelled and can be gotten rid of if you lose concentration.

Isn't that how others read it?
But it's not a spell, as I read it, so "dispelling it" isn't an option for the enemy. What they can do is recognize that it's an illusion and ignore it. Losing concentration is a matter of hitting the cleric, not the illusion, and cleric failing the con save.

[Man_Over_Game]

But it's not a spell, as I read it, so "dispelling it" isn't an option for the enemy. What they can do is recognize that it's an illusion and ignore it. Losing concentration is a matter of hitting the cleric, not the illusion, and cleric failing the con save.

Dispel doesn't have to target the effects of a spell; it works fine on generic magical abilities too as long as they're identified as "magical".

The question is whether the illusion is technically considered magical or not. I can't read up on it to determine if it's explicitly labeled as "magical", and it wouldn't make sense if it wasn't, but that's a possibility.

[Trustypeaches]

Dispel doesn't have to target the effects of a spell; it works fine on generic magical abilities too as long as they're identified as "magical".

The question is whether the illusion is technically considered magical or not. I can't read up on it to determine if it's explicitly labeled as "magical", and it wouldn't make sense if it wasn't, but that's a possibility.There are illusions and other magical effects that simply can’t be dispelled.

[Snowbluff]

I actually was suggested to use it with Spirit Guardians before I realized both were concentration. I did it and it wasn't that OP. I guess compare to a smaller, moving Sickening Radiance.


You don't have to be "100% good" to be good. You have now moved toward a rather useless, zero defects standard, which I think neither of us would have championed when this discussion began.
There isn't a single cleric domain that isn't good as a PC class, since the cleric class in general is good. How well Trickery fits into your group, and into your campaign, has a pretty big error band which is part of why the guides and optimization efforts are at best "only partly good." That you place higher value on them isn't of any use to anyone but you.

Beyond that, I think we are at an impasse.

I think we're reading different parts of what you said.

You said "only in your perception."

Subject was me.
IE, "only snowbluff thinks it's bad."
Wasn't "only" so the statement was strictly untrue, which is what I was pointing out.

[strangebloke]

See, this has always been my understanding of the spell. Nothing in it's description says it disappears, only that it doesn't hold up to physical inspection.

So by all means ignore the duplicate wading through the battlefield...it can still inflict wounds on you and can't be harmed in any way... though it can be dispelled and can be gotten rid of if you lose concentration.

Isn't that how others read it?

Physical inspection means an investigation check.

Which is an action. Athough if someone attacks it and the blow goes right through, they probably lets everyone know that's its not normal. But then, a stupid creature might not figure that out. A smart one might think the duplicate has etherealness on it.

Either way, its good for leading people on a merry chase while you follow behind, invisible. Even better if you can get eyes on it using a familiar, so that it can go places you can't. And then its also a great range extender. Healing word is great mostly because of its range, but with your duplicate in play that range isn't such a big consideration.

Seriously, if all the thing did was give you advantage on melee attacks for a minute (which it does do) people would be calling it decent.

It's a little wonky, but still useful, on theme, and entertaining.

Got an idea for a prankster who treats the duplicate as though he it was his evil prankster twin, frequently getting into arguments with the illusion, and calling him 'David.'

David was the name of his older brother who he lost years ago. His old partner in crime that he'll never get back.

[Trustypeaches]

Seriously, if all the thing did was give you advantage on melee attacks for a minute (which it does do) people would be calling it decent.Considering it takes concentration and Trickster clerics in particular aren't good at melee outside Inflict Wounds, I would hardly call it decent if advantage was all it offered.

[strangebloke]

Considering it takes concentration and Trickster clerics in particular aren't good at melee outside Inflict Wounds, I would hardly call it decent if advantage was all it offered.

They aren't bad at melee either.

19 AC with a shield and divine strike, attacking with advantage, using a mace as an action and spiritual weapon as a bonus action? You can't move the spiritual weapon at the same time as the duplicate, but that's often just fine. Then if the opponent moves you can hit them and get divine strike off again, or if you have warcaster you can throw out a 2d12 toll the dead.

1d6(shortsword)+3(DEX)+1d8(divine strike) + 2d8+5 (spritual weapon) = 24 damage with another 11 if they try to move, which isn't shabby even at 8th level. Add constant advantage there and you're downright scary.

Multiclass to rogue after two levels and you compensate for one of the melee rogue's main weaknesses. (inconsistent damage)

As to concentration, Warcaster is a great feat for clerics anyway, and if there's a paladin in the party the cleric could easily have a +2(CON)+4(aura)+1d4(pally bless)=+8.5 with advantage, which will let them pretty trivially keep concentration up.

And most importantly, this isn't even close to a complete list of what you can do with this ability. Cast touch-ranged buffs at 30 feet away. BTW, the illusion can fly so there's a method for getting to your aerial friends. Boost your range with fixed-range spells like spiritual weapon or hold person. Pick up booming blade via magic initiate and lock someone across the map into position with a thundering clap. (The melee weapon attack is the physical component of the spell, which you can cast as though you were in the illusion's space )

It's a great, cheesy ability which is fun, thematic, and useful without being outright overpowered.

[Stygofthedump]

As a DM I have had an equal level trickery cleric cause the party massive issues with the duplicate repeatedly casting mirror image while the caster was hidden. The party tried to take out spellcaster of enemy group but ended up wasting a lot of attacks. The cleric actually escaped the battle.

[Trustypeaches]

They aren't bad at melee either.

19 AC with a shield and divine strike, attacking with advantage, using a mace as an action and spiritual weapon as a bonus action? You can't move the spiritual weapon at the same time as the duplicate, but that's often just fine. Then if the opponent moves you can hit them and get divine strike off again, or if you have warcaster you can throw out a 2d12 toll the dead.

1d6(shortsword)+3(DEX)+1d8(divine strike) + 2d8+5 (spritual weapon) = 24 damage with another 11 if they try to move, which isn't shabby even at 8th level. Add constant advantage there and you're downright scary.

Multiclass to rogue after two levels and you compensate for one of the melee rogue's main weaknesses. (inconsistent damage)
First off, Trickery clerics can't use shortswords. They're martial weapons. The best finesse weapon you get is a dagger unless you multiclass.

Second off, I think you are really underestimating how easy it is for an enemy to get out of range of your illusion and force you to burn a bonus action re-positioning. Enemies can disrupt your "combo" by walking 5 feet, which they can even do without leaving your range and provoking an opportunity attack. You then need to use a bonus action to move the illusion closer, the same bonus action you want to use on Spiritual Weapon. You have to do this every time there isn't an enemy in range of your illusion (they walk away, they teleport, they die, etc).


And most importantly, this isn't even close to a complete list of what you can do with this ability. Cast touch-ranged buffs at 30 feet away. BTW, the illusion can fly so there's a method for getting to your aerial friends. Boost your range with fixed-range spells like spiritual weapon or hold person. Pick up booming blade via magic initiate and lock someone across the map into position with a thundering clap. (The melee weapon attack is the physical component of the spell, which you can cast as though you were in the illusion's spaceYes, but you need to hit the target with a melee weapon for booming blade to work. Since the illusion cannot perform the melee attack, Booming Blade will fail. That "combo" doesn't work.

Also Hold Person is a concentration effect and as such cannot be used alongside Invoke Duplicity.


As to concentration, Warcaster is a great feat for clerics anyway, and if there's a paladin in the party the cleric could easily have a +2(CON)+4(aura)+1d4(pally bless)=+8.5 with advantage, which will let them pretty trivially keep concentration up.No, you misunderstand.

The issue with concentration isn't that it's difficult to keep up and unreliable. The issue is that by using concentration, Invoke Duplicity has to compete with all the amazing concentration spells Clerics have access to: Bless, Spiritual Guardians, Hold Person, Bestow Curse, Banishment, or the Trickery Domain's own Polymorph or Dominate Person spells.

That may be fine early on when you don't have enough spell slots to have some kind of concentration effect for every encounter. But past level 5? You will always have something much better you could be doing with your concentration than Invoke Duplicity.

[strangebloke]

No, you misunderstand.

The issue with concentration isn't that it's difficult to keep up and unreliable. The issue is that by using concentration, Invoke Duplicity has to compete with all the amazing concentration spells Clerics have access to: Bless, Spiritual Guardians, Hold Person, Bestow Curse, Banishment, or the Trickery Domain's own Polymorph or Dominate Person spells.

That may be fine early on when you don't have enough spell slots to have some kind of concentration effect for every encounter. But past level 5? You will always have something much better you could be doing with your concentration than Invoke Duplicity.

This channel divinity is an efficient if not amazing piece of kit that will be useful in a particularly long adventuring day. Since the trickery cleric is more likely than most clerics to cast spells outside of combat (PwT, disguise self, charm person, dispel magic, modify memory) you're more likely to need an efficiency boost.

It does get worse as you level, but fortunately the level 6 usage is one that gets better as you level. Concentrationless invisibility on a short rest!

I could still see myself using this channel divinity by level 9 or so. Resources are great, man.

[Nhorianscum]

Concentration free invisibility with spirit guardians up is extremely good. As level 6 abilities go this, twice a short rest is solid gold.

I feel like folks are overstating the flaws of invoke duplicity. Would I use this as a first level concentration spell? Oh hell yes. And that's effectively what it is with no slot taken. It's a very cool and useful ability. I was sold at "this is 1-3/short rest superadvantage" when considering trickery multi's.

[Deathtongue]

Why do people keep bring up the 'concentration-free invisibility' as if it was any good? It sucks. You only get a round of it, making it useless for out-of-combat stealth. It takes an action in combat and it goes away if you do most anything in your cleric kit. That 'it takes an action' makes it really stink. I'd yell at a cleric wasting their valuable actions on that crap much like I'd yell at a druid who wasted time in combat staring at butterflies or petting kittens.

[Nhorianscum]

Why do people keep bring up the 'concentration-free invisibility' as if it was any good? It sucks. You only get a round of it, making it useless for out-of-combat stealth. It takes an action in combat and it goes away if you do most anything in your cleric kit. That 'it takes an action' makes it really stink. I'd yell at a cleric wasting their valuable actions on that crap much like I'd yell at a druid who wasted time in combat staring at butterflies or petting kittens.

Cloak can be used in the same round as a bonus action spell. So it competes with cantrips, dash, dodge and normal attack on turns where the cleric casts with its bonus action. (This is common, like, every single combat common).

Of these options, cloak is by far the most useful as a defensive/repositioning tool and will see the most use on turn 1 or 2 of combat. At most this competes with 3d8+dex+2 damage at level 7 on a trickery 6/fighter 1 with magic innate or 3d8+1d6+dex at trickery6 rouge 1 at the level we get it. On base trickery this competes with 2d12, 2d8+dex, or 2d6 (aoe). So be invisible or deal at the most, an additional 20(acc) average damage/round. Not a hard choice considering we already deal 5d8+wis/round before using our action and gain advantage on our next turn.

It compares well when considered side by side with mirror image as well, and if needed these do stack giving some pretty silly survivability.

[No brains]

As of the Sanctuary nerf, Cloak of Shadows still allows one round of sitting pretty while your Spirit Guardians do your dirty work. Also the chaos of a 10-meter mob of spirits could plausibly make creatures lose track of you and target the wrong square.

[Tanarii]

If we just judge Invoke Duplicity based on what's present in the description, however, it stinks. You trade your concentration for a second point to cast spells from and conditional MELEE advantage.
You're kidding, right?

The latter is a great combat benefit for concentration, especially for trickery clerics, which are, like the average cleric, partially MELEE characters.

Then on top of that you've got a second origin point for you spells, which is, in of itself, pretty damn nifty.

And that is if we completely even exclude the out-of-combat tricking people benefits of a perfect duplicate illusion of yourself.

Baseline balance of this feature just considering those two direct benefits, it's a good ability.

[Trustypeaches]

You're kidding, right?

The latter is a great combat benefit for concentration, especially for trickery clerics, which are, like the average cleric, partially MELEE characters.

Then on top of that you've got a second origin point for you spells, which is, in of itself, pretty damn nifty.

And that is if we completely even exclude the out-of-combat tricking people benefits of a perfect duplicate illusion of yourself.

Baseline balance of this feature just considering those two direct benefits, it's a good ability.It's competing with your other concentration-based abilities. Are those benefits really better than Bless or Spiritual Guardians at any given point?

Also out of combat it only lasts 1 minute. Hardly long enough for any substantial shenanigans.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also out of combat it only lasts 1 minute. Hardly long enough for any substantial shenanigans. a minute is more than enough time to provide misdirection while you (and another party member or two) head off in another direction. (Particularly in a town/city environment).

[Nhorianscum]

It's competing with your other concentration-based abilities. Are those benefits really better than Bless or Spiritual Guardians at any given point?

Also out of combat it only lasts 1 minute. Hardly long enough for any substantial shenanigans.

If you've multi'd in on a damageOP mele? YES. This is pretty much on-par with Venge pallys channel (trade concentration for multiple targets over a fight). It's not grave/forge/order but holy crap this is a sick boost for those dudes 2 levels into the multi and it's almost strictly better than bless as a 50% damage reduction+ superadvantage generator. It's buttery delicious as a 3/day, absolutely nuts as a 6/day.

Pure trickery eventually drops this in-combat at 5 (SG+ 4 bless slots) for the aformentioned use of invis at 6. OOC it's a no-slot short rest on par with silent image which is a Very Good Spell. So. Yes. This is a not awful channel.

[Trustypeaches]

a minute is more than enough time to provide misdirection while you (and another party member or two) head off in another direction. (Particularly in a town/city environment).
Exactly. Not what I'd call substantial shenanigans.

[stoutstien]

knowledge trickery domain. fixed it.

[Tanarii]

It's competing with your other concentration-based abilities. Are those benefits really better than Bless or Spiritual Guardians at any given point? Yes, potentially at many given points. It doesn't cost spell slots. It's a different resource pool.

Nor does it require casting a spell, although obviously it's more useful if you're free to do that after it comes into play.

[JumboWheat01]

I personally love the Trickery Domain, even if it isn't the be-all and end-all domain. The spell list is fun, and using cleric buffs / debuffs / controls to mess with the BBEG's plans can be satisfying. The advantage on stealth would be more nice if you could slap it on yourself, but it can be handy at times too.

Invoke Duplicity does have problems eating up your Concentration, which a good few debuffs or controls need, though splitting off with your illusions in different directions and hiding can be for some good survivability. Plus making multiple of yourself to taunt the enemy and drive them batty can be fun.

Cloak of Shadows though... being invisible for such a short time just isn't worth it. You can't use the hide action, which means people still have a general idea where you are, and if you move, so you can still be targeted, just at a disadvantage. And its biggest issue is that it eats up more uses of Invoke Duplicity.

The Divine Strike also isn't really worth it. Poison is a pretty worthless element to attack with. Would Psychic help? Sure, I guess. Would a cantrip boost have been better? Maybe. It just doesn't feel like the Trickery Domain is supposed to be a Striker at all, something entirely different from a damage boost would feel more thematic.

Is it the WORST domain though? I can't say it is. It's not grade-A "why would you not take it?" for sure, but worst? No.

[Dark Schneider]

Concentration-free invisibility is not good?, so getting invisibility, and moving aside, so all the attacks from those who didn't perceived you auto-miss, and those who perceived you have disadvantage, is not good?
It is a skill to put yourself safe.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

Blessing of the Trickster is simply a decent buff. Your party rogue may love you for it.

Duplicity is pretty nice, especially for delivering touch spells. It's free advantage or free mele without having to mele.

Cloak of Shadows is kind of bad but decent as an, "in a pinch", escape mechanism. Having a good escape plan is important in any encounter when it goes south.

Divine strike could be better but hey, it's free damage. As a cleric you have plenty of options to deal with undead who'd be immune to poison.

I'll say this, the domain spells are Amazingly Good!.

Mirror Image, Blink, Dimension Door, and Polymorph are EXTREMELY good. If you're thinking of player a "trickster" without seeing the value in this domain list...

Remember your job is a cleric is support and sometimes tanking. The trickery domain has very solid options for accomplishing those tasks. You're not a psuedo rogue, although with Criminal or Urchin background you could pull it off to a degree, but you're not going to be a divine Arcane Trickster. You're a cleric. You have good armor, shields, and some of the best buff spells in the game. This domain makes that strength stronger.

The thing I love about trickery domain is how well it multiclasses with rogue. invoke duplicity allows you to walk up and sneak attack whoever you want or you can use it as a diversion. Then the Polymorph is incredibly useful for a rogue for infiltration. The abilities work great together but I do have to say trickster cleric on its own is not the most powerful class and could be made better. Their abilities are freaking awesome and useful but definitely not bad.