Swift Hunter build help

[Jforjeff]

Hey guys, I’m getting ready to start a campaign in a few hours and I’m considering going scout 4 / ranged 26 and being an archer. I’ve read the swift hunter handbook but it doesn’t offer much build advice as far as level order is concerned.

What is the best level order for this character? Is it better to level more as ranger or scout? I know this is going to sound dumb but I’m still kind of new to the rules. What ways can the character move 10+ feet and still attack in the same turn?

Also, I know cloistered cleric is a strong dip for the class. Is it possible to play the character and still be strong without the cleric dip? Can you still get the travel devotion feat without going cleric?

What are your suggested feats?

I’m sorry asking a lot of questions. The game starts in a few hours and I’m stressing out about choosing a character.

[DeTess]

You can take travel devotion without being a cleric, but in that case you can't spend turn undead attempts to power it more often than 1/day. In addition to this feat, you could take martial study to get the 'sudden leap' maneuver (both feat and maneuver from Tome of Battle). This would allow you to once per fight take a swift action to make a jump check and move the indicated distance. There's also several items, such as the anklet of translocation, that would allow for swift action movement.

As for whether your build will be strong without a cleric dip, it really depends on your table. There are tables where even with the dip you'd be outclassed, and there are tables where even without the dip you're one of the strongest builds.

For further feat recommendations it'd be nice to know whether you're going TWF or ranged.

[DrMotives]

I'm not super familiar with swift hunter, but Travel Devotion I can clarify a bit. First, devotion feats can be taken without a cleric dip by using one of your feat choices on it, same as any other feat. But there are 2 good reasons why cleric makes sense for it. Firstly, if one of your cleric domains is Travel, you can give up the domain to get Travel Domain as a bonus feat. This is especially strong with a dip, as you weren't going to be getting higher level spells from the domain anyway. The other reason is is that you can exchange daily uses of your turn/rebuke undead ability for more uses of Travel Domain. Again, turning is a weak option on a cleric dip as your turn power is based on cleric level, and won't work well against appropriate CR foes. But more uses of swift travel power is still great at higher levels.

[Jforjeff]

You can take travel devotion without being a cleric, but in that case you can't spend turn undead attempts to power it more often than 1/day. In addition to this feat, you could take martial study to get the 'sudden leap' maneuver (both feat and maneuver from Tome of Battle). This would allow you to once per fight take a swift action to make a jump check and move the indicated distance. There's also several items, such as the anklet of translocation, that would allow for swift action movement.

As for whether your build will be strong without a cleric dip, it really depends on your table. There are tables where even with the dip you'd be outclassed, and there are tables where even without the dip you're one of the strongest builds.

For further feat recommendations it'd be nice to know whether you're going TWF or ranged.

Thanks for the comment. The group is not going to be heavily optimized. Power level all around will probably be tier 4. There’s a cleric but he’s a newer player who isn’t a min/maxer. My main goal is to be a solid contributor in fights. I’m good with the role playing, so I’m not worried about that.

I was wanting to be an archer. I plan on going Human because I am vanilla. Is the Swift Hunter build bad with bows?

[DeTess]

Thanks for the comment. The group is not going to be heavily optimized. Power level all around will probably be tier 4. There’s a cleric but he’s a newer player who isn’t a min/maxer. My main goal is to be a solid contributor in fights. I’m good with the role playing, so I’m not worried about that.

I was wanting to be an archer. I plan on going Human because I am vanilla. Is the Swift Hunter build bad with bows?

Oh no, I don't think it's bad at all. Using bows even makes things a bit easier in some regards, as you'll never have a situation where moving 10 feet will put you out of range.

In fact, that makes your problem even easier. If you can get the greater manyshot feat you can apply skirmish damage to what amounts to a full attack for a standard action, as you don't really need many ways to get swift action movement. This is rather feat-intensive though. At what level are you starting, and what level do you expect to reach?

[Jforjeff]

Oh no, I don't think it's bad at all. Using bows even makes things a bit easier in some regards, as you'll never have a situation where moving 10 feet will put you out of range.

In fact, that makes your problem even easier. If you can get the greater manyshot feat you can apply skirmish damage to what amounts to a full attack for a standard action, as you don't really need many ways to get swift action movement. This is rather feat-intensive though. At what level are you starting, and what level do you expect to reach?

Starting at level 4. We have no limit on it so we will run until we die I guess.

[Zaq]

Have you looked at Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot)? It’s a relatively high-level option, but it lets you get multiple Skirmish attacks in one round without using Travel Devotion, Sudden Leap, or anything else you can run out of.

That won’t come online for a while if you start at level 4, which I just saw. I think you’ll need to chart a course and try to figure out what level you’ll be at when you start needing to make multiple Skirmish-boosted shots in one turn. Your BAB isn’t high enough yet to allow for such a thing naturally, so you’re not behind the curve yet. But the options that enable such a thing do take some buildup and planning, so figure out your goal for when you want to have “move and attack multiple times with Skirmish” online.

[DeTess]

Starting at level 4. We have no limit on it so we will run until we die I guess.

Alright. Unless your DM allows retraining or other tricks to change your feats, you'd have greater manyshot online by level 9, assuming you do something like scout 3/ranger 6 to start with (you'd need ranger 6 before or at level 9 to qualify for greater manyshot in time).

[Jforjeff]

Dumb question, but how do I go about moving 10 feet and then attacking. I thought moving more than 5 feet was a standard action?

[DeTess]

Dumb question, but how do I go about moving 10 feet and then attacking. I thought moving more than 5 feet was a standard action?

Nope, that's a move action. Each turn you get a standard action, a move action and a swift action, or a swift action and a full-round action.

[Jforjeff]

Nope, that's a move action. Each turn you get a standard action, a move action and a swift action, or a swift action and a full-round action.

Oh okay. So I don’t have to do anything fancy to be able to move 10 feet and then greater many shot? I just say I move 10 feet and then gms? Lol

[DeTess]

Oh okay. So I don’t have to do anything fancy to be able to move 10 feet and then greater many shot? I just say I move 10 feet and then gms? Lol

Pretty much. The reason the handbook has all the fancy tricks is because this only works at range with greater manyshot. Doing a full attack in melee requires a full-round action which means you usually can't move.

[Zaq]

Oh okay. So I don’t have to do anything fancy to be able to move 10 feet and then greater many shot? I just say I move 10 feet and then gms? Lol

You might want to review the basic "actions in combat" rules. Chapter 8 of the PHB (starting on pg. 133) has the basics. In particular, you'll want the section starting on 138 and running through about 145 for a breakdown of what your actions are and what you can spend them on by default.

Feats and class features and stuff (like, say, Greater Manyshot) might change how a few specific options work or might open up some new specific options, but you'll probably want a firm grasp on the basics before those will really make sense.

To oversimplify a bit, you've usually got one move action and one standard action, or you can spend both your move and your standard as a full-round action. Moving is a move action, and you can go up to your speed unless something says you can't. Making a single attack is a standard action. Making multiple attacks (like from having 6 or better BAB or from using Rapid Shot) is usually a full-round action, so it's hard to move and make multiple attacks at once.

The feat Manyshot specifically lets you fire multiple arrows as a standard action, but it also specifically bans you from getting extra damage (i.e., Skirmish) more than once, so it's not your end goal. Greater Manyshot specifically removes this limitation and lets you make multiple attacks that can each get extra damage on a standard action, so once GMS is online, you just spend a move action moving and a standard action making that special GMS attack, and there you have it.

[Jforjeff]

You might want to review the basic "actions in combat" rules. Chapter 8 of the PHB (starting on pg. 133) has the basics. In particular, you'll want the section starting on 138 and running through about 145 for a breakdown of what your actions are and what you can spend them on by default.

Feats and class features and stuff (like, say, Greater Manyshot) might change how a few specific options work or might open up some new specific options, but you'll probably want a firm grasp on the basics before those will really make sense.

To oversimplify a bit, you've usually got one move action and one standard action, or you can spend both your move and your standard as a full-round action. Moving is a move action, and you can go up to your speed unless something says you can't. Making a single attack is a standard action. Making multiple attacks (like from having 6 or better BAB or from using Rapid Shot) is usually a full-round action, so it's hard to move and make multiple attacks at once.

The feat Manyshot specifically lets you fire multiple arrows as a standard action, but it also specifically bans you from getting extra damage (i.e., Skirmish) more than once, so it's not your end goal. Greater Manyshot specifically removes this limitation and lets you make multiple attacks that can each get extra damage on a standard action, so once GMS is online, you just spend a move action moving and a standard action making that special GMS attack, and there you have it.

Thanks for the help guys. I’m mostly just worried about being subpar or useless. I’ll read up on the combat action stuff.

How would you distribute feats and stats on a level 4 character? My stay rolls were really good.
18, 17, 16, 15, 15, 12, 10 distributed how I want.

[DeTess]

Thanks for the help guys. I’m mostly just worried about being subpar or useless. I’ll read up on the combat action stuff.

How would you distribute feats and stats on a level 4 character? My stay rolls were really good.
18, 17, 16, 15, 15, 12, 10 distributed how I want.

I'd put the stats like this(assuming you meant to list only 1 15):

STR 17
DEX 18
CON 16
INT 12
WIS 15
CHA 10

And put your lvl 4 stat-up in strength so you can use an proper composite longbow (read up on those in the phb, but they basicalky allow you to add your strength bonus to damage).

For feats, you'll need 'point blank shot' to fill prerequisites later. I'd also still grab travel devotion as it can still be pretty useful. I'm afb so I can't go diving for a nice third feat.

[Ruethgar]

If you take two levels in Martial Monk you can grab Manyshot and Greater Manyshot by level 2. Two levels of Scout as well for your starting levels and you can be manyshot skirmishing right off the bat.

[animewatcha]

Won't the attack penalty from manyshot hurt accuracy quite a bit though?

[Darrin]

Won't the attack penalty from manyshot hurt accuracy quite a bit though?

Sort of. The penalties are worse, but you get to roll for more attacks than a standard action. When you do hit, you get more damage. Well, you hope it does.

[Doctor Awkward]

Thanks for the help guys. I’m mostly just worried about being subpar or useless. I’ll read up on the combat action stuff.

How would you distribute feats and stats on a level 4 character? My stay rolls were really good.
18, 17, 16, 15, 15, 12, 10 distributed how I want.

Lv 1: Scout 1 - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot (Human)
Lv 2: Ranger 1 - Track (Ranger Bonus)
Lv 3: Scout 2 - Travel Devotion
Lv 4: Scout 3
Lv 5: Scout 4 - Swift Hunter (Scout bonus)
Lv 6: Ranger 2 - Improved Skirmish, Rapid Shot (Ranger Bonus)

From there take Ranger to infinity. This gets you the most solid damage up to this point while getting used to the play style of move, stay within 30 ft of your target, shoot, every round.

Once you hit level 10 you get Many Shot from Ranger 6 and can take Greater Manyshot at level 12. You can then retrain Travel Devotion into something else, or keep it if you've found it useful up until that point.

[Rebel7284]

There is also Sparring Dummy of the Master to take 10ft. steps instead of 5ft steps.

Requires a level of Monk, but there is a Halfling monk substitution level that gives you more skirmish.

[Temotei]

You can also have a mount, use Ride to fast mount (DC 20), move as far as you like (optional) with the mount, then fast dismount (DC 20) on the other side of the mount to trigger skirmish and full attack with ranged weapons.

[animewatcha]

One thing I wonder. What happens when you have something like Arrowsplit / splitting enchantment and do like the feat that turn ( as a standard action ) do a 60 ft line attack. I know that 'extra damage' only affects first creature hit. My wondering lies when you are releasing more than one arrow in regards to it.

[danielxcutter]

Sort of. The penalties are worse, but you get to roll for more attacks than a standard action. When you do hit, you get more damage. Well, you hope it does.

It also has very good synergy with Find the Gap(SpC), which lets you resolve your first attack in a round as a touch attack... and Multishot only uses one roll. Also combos well with the various "swift action one-shot spells" like Hunter's Mercy or Spellslayer Arrow; might as well make that shot a really powerful one even if the effect only works on the first arrow. Oh, and honestly getting Skirmish damage once on a Manyshot is still a lot better than nothing at all.

[Doctor Awkward]

It also has very good synergy with Find the Gap(SpC), which lets you resolve your first attack in a round as a touch attack... and Multishot only uses one roll. Also combos well with the various "swift action one-shot spells" like Hunter's Mercy or Spellslayer Arrow; might as well make that shot a really powerful one even if the effect only works on the first arrow. Oh, and honestly getting Skirmish damage once on a Manyshot is still a lot better than nothing at all.

Do note that in a game where Find the Gap is ruled to function with Greater Manyshot, the DM is also well within his right to rule that anyone with Deflect Arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#deflectArrows) completely shuts down your entire attack for the round.

[danielxcutter]

Do note that in a game where Find the Gap is ruled to function with Greater Manyshot, the DM is also well within his right to rule that anyone with Deflect Arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#deflectArrows) completely shuts down your entire attack for the round.

Huh? No no no, I mean Find the Gap with vanilla Manyshot, before you get the Greater version. Still hits pretty hard, after all.