Ways to Make a Solo-Longsword/Warhammer/Battleaxe Viable?

[Waifu Collector]

I’m rolling up a Fighter for a high level campaign, and I want to use just a longsword. Unfortunately, there’s no way to make such a thing viable over a greatsword build or a sword and board build.

Anyone have ideas for how to make a solo longsword build viable?

[jdolch]

You can play a Gish and use various AC and HP boosting spells in lieu of a Shield. Depending on the Gish Build you choose you can also deal DMG almost independent from you Sword Damage. e.g. if you go 2 levels in Paladin, you can smite, which has it's own dmg dice.

What level are you starting at ?

[Waifu Collector]

You can play a Gish and use various AC and HP boosting spells in lieu of a Shield. Depending on the Gish Build you choose you can also deal DMG almost independent from you Sword Damage. e.g. if you go 2 levels in Paladin, you can smite, which has it's own dmg dice.

What level are you starting at ?

Level 8, not as high level as I previously believed. I’m going Purple Dragon Knight so magic isn’t too much of an option right now, but I guess I could multiclass later.

Edit: Forgot to include the rest of the build. Half Elf PDK with the Inspiring Leader feat. 20 Str, 12 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 13 Wis (grabbing Resilent (Wis) later), and 14 Charisma

[druid91]

I mean do you want it to be 'Viable' or 'As good as GWM'?

[JackPhoenix]

Well, we lack mechanics that would allow you to unscrew the sword's pommel and end your opponent rightly, so there's not much you can do,

Unless you want to grapple or need the free hand for magic, there's not much of a point. You can also throw things with the free hand, but greatsword users can do that too. Proper two-handers will always have better damage, and you're willingly forsaking the biggest advantage of a longsword, the ability to use a shield. You won't be useless, but you're handicapping yourself. Especially on a fighter.

[Damon_Tor]

I’m rolling up a Fighter for a high level campaign, and I want to use just a longsword. Unfortunately, there’s no way to make such a thing viable over a greatsword build or a sword and board build.

Anyone have ideas for how to make a solo longsword build viable?

The advantage of a Longsword over a Greatsword is the versatile property, so use it. Grapples are great.

[jdolch]

Level 8, not as high level as I previously believed. I’m going Purple Dragon Knight so magic isn’t too much of an option right now, but I guess I could multiclass later.

Edit: Forgot to include the rest of the build. Half Elf PDK with the Inspiring Leader feat. 20 Str, 12 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 13 Wis (grabbing Resilent (Wis) later), and 14 Charisma

I don't see how exactly this is stopping you from playing PDK as a lawful/good Half-Elf Devotion Paladin 5/Divine Soul Sorcerer 3 With CHA>STR=CON>DEX/WIS/INT. The wiki page at least says the PDs where mostly comprised of Paladins. (You could even be cheeky and go Purple Dragon Sorcerer). And inspiring leader is better with higher CHA anyway.

You have access to Shield of Faith and Shield. Also you can Smite and Quicken GFB/BB.

[Unoriginal]

Well, it depends of a few things: do you have any preference?

Kensei for example can do pretty well with that setup.


The advantage of a Longsword over a Greatsword is the versatile property, so use it. Grapples are great.

Also alternating between the two-handed 1d10 mode and the one-hand-free is entirely free.


Now, we may have to think: what ELSE can you do with a free hand when you're not a spellcaster?

[Waifu Collector]

I mean do you want it to be 'Viable' or 'As good as GWM'?

I’m asking just for ideas on how to make the playstyle have some semblance of an advantage over others. It doesn’t have to be in game mechanics, maybe custom feats or something along those lines.

[Waifu Collector]

I don't see how exactly this is stopping you from playing PDK as a lawful/good Half-Elf Devotion Paladin 5/Divine Soul Sorcerer 3 With CHA>STR=CON>DEX/WIS/INT. The wiki page at least says the PDs where mostly comprised of Paladins. (You could even be cheeky and go Purple Dragon Sorcerer). And inspiring leader is better with higher CHA anyway.

You have access to Shield of Faith and Shield. Also you can Smite and Quicken GFB/BB.

It’s a mistake on my part that I didn’t mention this. But what’s stopping me is flavor. I’m playing a mercenary captain so perhaps a divinely inclined person wouldn’t really fit.

My bad, this should’ve been in the original post.

[CheddarChampion]

I agree that a Sorcadin would work great for this. For a sword&board sorcadin, war caster is practically a feat tax.
But you don't have that with the longsword, freeing up a feat/ASI. (Though a greatsword sorcadin would have a few more points of damage).

For your PDK, I'd grab Tavern Brawler (+1 Con) if your DM lets you grapple after attacking with it (as using a longsword as an improvised weapon might not fly).
Then perhaps grappler, since your M.O. will be grappling and attacking.
Then Resilient (Wisdom) as you said, or +1 Con and +1 Wis to round out those odd scores.

If the attributes aren't set in stone yet, see if you can get 10 Dex and 15 Con to start instead, because then T Brawler will round that Con score off and Res (Wis) will round the Wis score off. Dueling style, in case that wasn't clear.
That should result in a more powerful build.

[druid91]

Well, for one thing you have a hand free. Maybe Carry around a Grappling hook? Then you could hook it around a chandelier or something and gain some mobility by swinging around.

Or carry things like ball bearings to throw at peoples feet in combat to trip them up.

[jdolch]

It’s a mistake on my part that I didn’t mention this. But what’s stopping me is flavor. I’m playing a mercenary captain so perhaps a divinely inclined person wouldn’t really fit.

My bad, this should’ve been in the original post.

I don't want to press you into something you don't want to play. It's up to you.

That being said, this is a common mistake of people coming from older Versions of D&D. Paladins in D&D 5e are not connected to a Deity. They are empowered by their Oath, which is not in and off itself divine. The divine angle is purely optional. You can swear an Oath on almost anything, e.g. an Idea, Ideal or in this case: An Order. Hell, you can be a Chaotic Neutral Paladin and swear to spread Chaos. That becomes your Oath then.

[Nhorianscum]

I’m rolling up a Fighter for a high level campaign, and I want to use just a longsword. Unfortunately, there’s no way to make such a thing viable over a greatsword build or a sword and board build.

Anyone have ideas for how to make a solo longsword build viable?

Just saw PDK and edited to fit.

Grapples guide is a great read. (TL;DR Roll a grappler)

Take taven brawler. Take dueling FS. Get expertise athletics. (Dips to consider will be, bladelock 5, and thief rouge)

Abuse your off hand maliciously.

Grapple like a madman with a huge athletics score, and then beat a fool with your weapon because it's one handed.

Really abuse melemancy with your off hand by, throwing sharp things, throwing people, throwing furniture, throwing people on furiture, go crazy with melemancy, using healing kits, using scrolls, potions, wands, climbing, whatever, anything you like. Get creative. Fast hands makes this better. Carry and abuse a big bag of tricks and a quiver full of sharp things to throw.

Take eldrich smite if you want nova damage and just be content playing a more utility/control based dude for most of the day.

Beg your DM for slippers of spider climb.

PDK7/Rouge1 gets you in the door nicely. I can see a PDK12/thief3/warlock5 build doing some fun things.

[Unoriginal]

You can also use your free hand to swing from a chandelier and attack at the same time.


Do you have any race in mind? Because Bugbear could be fun for you.

[ImproperJustice]

Take 3 levels of Rogue (Thief).
Grab Healer.

Now use your free hand to heal others, open/close doors, toss obstacles on the ground at your enemy’s feet, drop oil, drop ball bearing, drop caltrops, place a bear trap, drink a potion, and/or eat a sandhwich.

Just go be Erol Flynn.

[Crl1981]

Half-High Elf, choose Cantrip Booming blade. Go Scimitar not Long Sword for finesse, they are basically the same weapon. Push for stealth with medium armor master. A lvl in rogue would help. Unfortunetly game mechanics mean that versatile weapons will always fail being used in two hands opposed to two-handed weapons.

[jdolch]

Go Scimitar not Long Sword for finesse, they are basically the same weapon.

In the same way Stilettos and Cowboy Boots are basically the same.

[Arkhios]

Well, unless you plan to be a Battle Master fighter, Duelist feat is a good way (IMHO) to handle a style that has a one-handed weapon without a shield.
Dueling Fighting Style is obviously a must.

[jdolch]

Dueling Fighting Style is obviously a must.

It is an Option. Not a Must and not obviously either. Since he doesn't want to use a shield a strong case can be made for Defensive Fighting Style.

[The Jack]

Grapple, grapple-grapple.
In my backlog i got a bugbear barbarian with a versatile morningstar ready to go. As someone said, a bugbear was made for a versatile build, its an incredie grappler and has a lot of ninja-play potential.

[jdolch]

To future Generations this will become known as the SnuggleBunnyBuild

[JackPhoenix]

It is an Option. Not a Must and not obviously either. Since he doesn't want to use a shield a strong case can be made for Defensive Fighting Style.

Defensive and Dueling FS are both good options. The former somewhat makes up for the loss of shield, the later gives you better damage than just two-handing it (5.5 damage from versatile, 6.5 from Dueling) even if your other hand is occupied.

On the note of AC, while it's directional and not 100% reliable, you can use grappled creature as a source of cover.

[Nhorianscum]

Defense may not be more valuable than normal.

It's worth noting that the defense loss from going shieldless on a grappler isn't awful as you have near permanent half/three quarters cover.

[djreynolds]

I’m rolling up a Fighter for a high level campaign, and I want to use just a longsword. Unfortunately, there’s no way to make such a thing viable over a greatsword build or a sword and board build.

Anyone have ideas for how to make a solo longsword build viable?


Level 8, not as high level as I previously believed. I’m going Purple Dragon Knight so magic isn’t too much of an option right now, but I guess I could multiclass later.

Edit: Forgot to include the rest of the build. Half Elf PDK with the Inspiring Leader feat. 20 Str, 12 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 13 Wis (grabbing Resilent (Wis) later), and 14 Charisma


I’m asking just for ideas on how to make the playstyle have some semblance of an advantage over others. It doesn’t have to be in game mechanics, maybe custom feats or something along those lines.


It’s a mistake on my part that I didn’t mention this. But what’s stopping me is flavor. I’m playing a mercenary captain so perhaps a divinely inclined person wouldn’t really fit.

Half-Elf qualifies you for the prodigy feat, giving you expertise in athletics.... a must for every pirate. Now at 8th level you have 2 attacks, you can give you first attack to prone a foe and take a swing with the next.

At my table, I allow players with extra attack to use their off hand fist for their second attack and then use tavern brawler for their BA. But this is a homebrew and some tables will not allow this.

AFB, but I don't believe you can use TWF with a light weapon and an unarmed strike.

But I believe you can do this, I would go TWF and grab the duel wielder feat, give up one attack to prone, second longsword, BA dagger.

Otherwise, just use a longsword or rapier one handed and have fun.

[JackPhoenix]

At my table, I allow players with extra attack to use their off hand fist for their second attack and then use tavern brawler for their BA. But this is a homebrew and some tables will not allow this.

That's no homebrew... that's literally how the game work. Except there's no such thing as "off-hand fist". You can replace any attack in Attack action with unarmed strike. You don't even need to have free hand, you can kick, headbutt or use any other part of your body... though you'll need free hand for grapple as usual.

[djreynolds]

That's no homebrew... that's literally how the game work. Except there's no such thing as "off-hand fist". You can replace any attack in Attack action with unarmed strike. You don't even need to have free hand, you can kick, headbutt or use any other part of your body... though you'll need free hand for grapple as usual.

Thanks JackPhoenix, so yeah this player can use tavern brawler, and go ahead and grab prodigy and get expertise in athletics. Pretty good.

Whenever I think of tavern brawler I think of Aragorn breaking an Orc's neck

Can really set up your team, with just dumping and grappling the enemy

[Kane0]

I really like adding new fighting styles for this sort of thing.

You gain a +1 to attack and damage rolls when using a versatile weapon in two hands.

Has worked great at my table, but you'll need DM approval first.

[Malifice]

Instead of PDK go Battlemaster (and take the maneuvers that are warlordish in flavor, plus a damage buff maneuver).

Commanders strike, distracting strike, rally and maneuvering attack are the choices I would go for.

Keeps the flavor intact and gives you a nice damage buff.

[jdolch]

Defense may not be more valuable than normal.

It's not technically "worth more than normal" in any Situation. It's always worth exactly 5% less Chance to being Hit. That being said it scales with you. 1 AC is as good on level 1 as it is on level 20.

Whether Dueling scales depends on the Character. It's a flat +2 weapon damage. So with most characters it doesn't scale well. As soon as you start stacking damage on every hit it is worth less and less. I could be totally wrong but I don't think there is a single character or multiclass in D&D that scales mainly by getting more attacks. Most if not all classes scale by getting higher damage rolls.
So, example: On level 1 they deal 1d8+4 Damage. Yes then 1d8+4(+2) is good. But on level 12 that Character deals 1d8+4+4d8+1d6+4 so 1d8+4+4d8+1d6+4(+2) isn't really that much better.

If i am wrong with that, please correct me, cause i totally made that up on the spot.

[Ganymede]

I’m rolling up a Fighter for a high level campaign, and I want to use just a longsword. Unfortunately, there’s no way to make such a thing viable over a greatsword build or a sword and board build.

Anyone have ideas for how to make a solo longsword build viable?

You have to figure out what you're going to do with your off hand. You can use it for grappling, you can hold a magical implement or component pouch with it, you can use it for hurled weapons. Figure out something you want to do with your off hand and you'll help close the distance.

Also, it is a bit deceptive to use the word "viable." Losing two pips of armor class or a couple pips of damage is not somehow going to make your character unviable.

[Nhorianscum]

It's not technically "worth more than normal" in any Situation. It's always worth exactly 5% less Chance to being Hit. That being said it scales with you. 1 AC is as good on level 1 as it is on level 20.

Whether Dueling scales depends on the Character. It's a flat +2 weapon damage. So with most characters it doesn't scale well. As soon as you start stacking damage on every hit it is worth less and less. I could be totally wrong but I don't think there is a single character or multiclass in D&D that scales mainly by getting more attacks. Most if not all classes scale by getting higher damage rolls.
So, example: On level 1 they deal 1d8+4 Damage. Yes then 1d8+4(+2) is good. But on level 12 that Character deals 1d8+4+4d8+1d6+4 so 1d8+4+4d8+1d6+4(+2) isn't really that much better.

If i am wrong with that, please correct me, cause i totally made that up on the spot.

Oh. Wrong math is wrong but I'm also too lazy to bother with it. So instead we'll consider defense = +1 armor and dueling = +2weapon/2. (Because they are). So number of attacks dealt favors dueling, attack rolls made favors defense (accounting for disadvantage). Assuming 2 attacks per enemy average and 3-5 attacks on player phase (4). We will ignore extreme situations.

Example: Defense is always better when grappling a hydra, dueling is always better in action surge.

With this assumption the FS's give equal value in a vacume. Defense makes you a better grappler. Dueling gives damage equivilant to or slightly better than a GWF greatsword (without GWM) making you better at not-grappling.

As is the character has no modifier to his damage on the class with the greatest number of attacks (up to 10 per round with BAand haste). We have no defensive buff but that can be remedied with living half cover. Dueling has "more" value overall, Defense has "more value in a grapple with 2 creatures", both FS are equivilant in a single creature grapple.

[jdolch]

Oh. Wrong math is wrong but I'm also too lazy to bother with it. So instead we'll consider defense = +1 armor and dueling = +2weapon/2. (Because they are). So number of attacks dealt favors dueling, attack rolls made favors defense (accounting for disadvantage). Assuming 2 attacks per enemy average and 3-5 attacks on player phase (4). We will ignore extreme situations.

Example: Defense is always better when grappling a hydra, dueling is always better in action surge.

With this assumption the FS's give equal value in a vacume. Defense makes you a better grappler. Dueling gives damage equivilant to or slightly better than a GWF greatsword (without GWM) making you better at not-grappling.

As is the character has no modifier to his damage on the class with the greatest number of attacks (up to 10 per round with BAand haste). We have no defensive buff but that can be remedied with living half cover. Dueling has "more" value overall, Defense has "more value in a grapple with 2 creatures", both FS are equivilant in a single creature grapple.

Sorry i really don't understand where you are going with this. Why are you using defensive fighting style offensively? It is not that complicated.

You can't compare the two. Defense gives a flat bonus that makes you 5% harder to hit. At any level. It scales because at level 1 a goblin is 5% less likely to hit you and at level 20 an Ancient Red DDragon is 5% less likely to hit you.

Dueling on the other hand is good on builds that have a lot of attacks with few dice rolled per attack and its terrible if all your damage comes from bonus dice anyway. If you foresee to do a lot of attacks that look like this: 2d6+1d4+5 (~13% dmg buff) then Dueling is solid. But if most of your Damage comes from a few Attacks that look like this: 1d8+3+6d8+1d4+1d6 (4.9% dmg buff) then it's pretty bad.

Also it depends on your character. If it's unlikely that your character is hit anyway, then AC+1 isn't that great. But if your character is a Tank then AC+1 is golden.

It's like comparing buying a better car vs renting a bigger apartment. They compete for resources but that is all they have in common.

[Nhorianscum]

Sorry i really don't understand where you are going with this. Why are you using defensive fighting style offensively? It is not that complicated.

You can't compare the two. Defense gives a flat bonus that makes you 5% harder to hit. At any level. It scales because at level 1 a goblin is 5% less likely to hit you and at level 20 an Ancient Red DDragon is 5% less likely to hit you.

Dueling on the other hand is good on builds that have a lot of attacks with few dice rolled per attack and its terrible if all your damage comes from bonus dice anyway. If you foresee to do a lot of attacks that look like this: 2d6+1d4+5 (~13% dmg buff) then Dueling is solid. But if most of your Damage comes from a few Attacks that look like this: 1d8+3+6d8+1d4+1d6 (4.9% dmg buff) then it's pretty bad.

Also it depends on your character. If it's unlikely that your character is hit anyway, then AC+1 isn't that great. But if your character is a Tank then AC+1 is golden.

It's like comparing buying a better car vs renting a bigger apartment. They compete for resources but that is all they have in common.

If you have 20 ac and the opponent has +0 to hit then 1 AC is worth 5%. At no other time is this true.

[jdolch]

If you have 20 ac and the opponent has +0 to hit then 1 AC is worth 5%. At no other time is this true.

Lets see:
I have 10AC, the enemy has +7 to hit. So he hits with 3-20 (18/20 = 0.9 = 90%)
+1 AC = 11 AC, the enemy has +7 to hit. So he hits with 4-20 (17/20 = 0.85 = 85%)

I have 15AC, the enemy has +5 to hit. So he hits with 10-20 (11/20 = 0.55 = 55%)
+1 AC = 16 AC, the enemy has +5 to hit. So he hits with 11-20 (10/20 = 0.50 = 50%)

I have 19AC, the enemy has +0 to hit. So he hits with 19-20 (2/20 = 0.10 = 10%)
+1 AC = 20 AC, the enemy has +0 to hit. So he hits with 20 (1/20 = 0.05 = 5%)

Seems to me like +1AC is always worth 5%. Math in 5e really isn't that complicated.

[JackPhoenix]

If you have 20 ac and the opponent has +0 to hit then 1 AC is worth 5%. At no other time is this true.

If you have 20 AC and the opponent has 0 to hit, +1 AC is worthless. He already needs natural 20 to hit you, any higher is redundant.

[jdolch]

Forget Dragons and Lich. The real enemy of all that is good and just is math :smallbiggrin:

[GlenSmash!]

My favorite Versatile weapon build is Fighter Scout Grappler. It's just such a fun use of a free hand.

I like Scout since they can add half a proficiency dice roll to athletics checks. As source of advantage such as Enlarge, or Rage is very helpful, Then Expertise form Rogue, Bard, or Prodigy and you are pretty well grappling anything that isn't flat out immune to being grappled. Tavern Brawler adds some bonus action utility if you are willing to spend one attack using a fist or improvised weapon.

I also prefer Defensive fighting style of dueling on the grappler for the simple reason that when I can't grapple it makes sens to use the weapon in two hands, and if I'm not doing that I might as well have a Rapier.

Although, Mariner fighting style is my favorite as I typically shy away from heavy armor for thematic reasons.

Of course If UA isn't it doesn't quite work. still any flavor of fighter works pretty dang good.

[Nhorianscum]

Woops. My mistake on the 20+1 vs 0.

Also wrong math is wrong. (Well, right math is right but with a flawed premise) The flat 5% only matters if we have no starting modifier at all (untrue, lowest possible is a 9 base AC) if an enemy has 55% chance to hit and you raise it to a 60% chance to hit you are gaining a comparative 9% not 5%.

Further we are comparing 1-19 not 1-20.

You cannot apply this sort of logic to dueling (36% increase to 1d10) without applying it to AC as well as that creates a situation where at a 5% def increase DPH must be 40 or higher to attain equivilancy at a point of equal offensive and defensive interaction. This is a PDK with a longsword. 40 DPH ain't happening without a Wyvern poisoned frostbrand under an additional combat buff.

So let's set a base for comparison. Assumed to hit here is +3 at 18 base AC modified by defense for a 25% increase, lower to hit makes this more valueable but +3 at xl8 is already on the low side. With at-will cover generation and enhanced armor our range of to-hit for comparison looks more like +3-11. I have mostly ignored damage increases because PDK has jack all going for it there. Enlarge and a +1 weapon (as external boosts) give a comparable range to our assumed def here.

I am heavily favoring defense with this premise as this is a defensive/controling build by considering 25% = 36% after modifiers. (AC loses value at extremely high and extremely low values, dueling is linear. So we're just assuming fluctuation in AC's favor)

I'm this case damage output and damage input (assuming higher monster hp and higher PC damage are also a roughly constant equivilant) are equivilant for both on average so the only factor that matters is how often dice get rolled for each. 4 dice rolls is our magic number and our most common situation (single target grappled and proned vs fighter attacks over 20 levels ignoring surge and huge multiattacks). Attacks outside the grapple are modified by half or 3/4 cover from our living shield so the question here is.

"Will you grapple 2 creatures or fight immune to grapple things more, know your DM, pick your poison"