Wizard/Cleric/Fighter???

[GuestEleven]

Hey guys, I'm trying to help out one of my fellow players. I am DMing an evil campaign and they're new to the system. They've been playing 2e for all of their life up until now and they have a very loose grasp on how mechanics work. I offered to help make their character and let me preface this by saying that my group mixes Pathfinder and 3.5. They only options off the table are 3rd party, homebrew, and the Book of 9 Swords. With that being said; at first they wanted to be a fighter/mage. Aptly I thought to myself that Magus would be perfect. Then they asked for fighter/cleric. I said okay, Warpriest should fir that perfectly. Now they want a mix of fighter, mage, AND cleric. I'm sure this can be forced to work, but I want all the suggestions I could get from you guys.

My initial thought was to just give him five levels in Magus, five in Warpriest, then ten in Mystic Theurge. This might be somewhat decent casting potential, but I feel like his melee ability would fall off significantly and he'd end up being subpar in both forms of casting. Any magic item suggestions would be fantastic as well.

Thanks guys.

[Nifft]

Cloistered Cleric 20 with Knowledge + Magic + Spell domains, and DMM:Persist for Divine Power (that's giving you a Fighter BAB, except better because you pay zero Fighter levels).


For lower lactose just use classic Cleric 20 with Magic + War domains, and use the Martial weapon favored by the alignment. DMM:Quicken for Divine Power on demand.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A quori (from Eberron) psion-or-ardent/thrallherd and a convert-spell-to-power erudite as a thrall. The thrall learns arcane spells (and divine spells converted to arcane spells) as powers and uses power stones of psychic chirurgery to teach them to you. Divine power for full BAB, and quori power link shards combined with item qualities that grant feats and the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle for fighter feats...

...Or just go cloistered cleric.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Artificer with Chameleon Crafting (Dragon #349). Can pretty much turn any kind of spell or power into any other kind, but it's anyone's guess how.

[Troacctid]

Try using the Generic Spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#spellcaster) from Unearthed Arcana. It has access to all Cleric, Druid, and Sorcerer/Wizard spells. Then go into one of the many gish-style prestige classes available: Abjurant Champion, Knight of the Raven, Fist of Raziel, Knight Phantom, Raumathari Battle Mage, Havoc Mage, Spellsword, Prestige Paladin, Hexer, etc.

[bean illus]

You may not need cleric/wizard/fighter.

It really depends on what power level you game at, but i assume your 2e players will need to catch up just a bit.

We CAN break your campaign though, if you want. What power level are you looking for?

Cloistered cleric gives skills (and more), and they can create physical focus to the character. They can use wizard scrolls and wands.

Fighter if your short feats, which he may be, but only 1-2 levels.

Lion Barbarian 1 for pounce.

That's all you need to start.
If you wanna add teleport or extra domains, let me know. It can get pretty busy.

[GuestEleven]

Thanks for all the suggestions. Cloistered is looking really good. As for power level, he isn't the most capable player so I don't want to overload him with complex builds when he barely has a firm grasp on mechanics. I want just enough so that he can do the three things he wants to effectively. Players are level 7.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Thanks for all the suggestions. Cloistered is looking really good. As for power level, he isn't the most capable player so I don't want to overload him with complex builds when he barely has a firm grasp on mechanics. I want just enough so that he can do the three things he wants to effectively. Players are level 7.
You should explain to your player that "cleric" and "wizard" and "fighter" aren't specific enough clues to build a character. I'm thinking that nine times out of ten, what they really want can be done with one spell list and no fighter levels. Wizard/cleric/fighter just sounds like "play all the things!" to me.

What we--forum optimization people--hear when you say "cleric/wizard/fighter" is "broad list access gish". For a gish, pulling from multiple lists is typically very high-OP*, because it implies that your power is actually limited by the available spells, instead of number of spells per day/caster level/number of concurrent buffs running and so on. In other words: if a standard sorcadin or Swiftblade or Ruby Knight Vindicator is strong enough without pulling from multiple lists, any gish that can "usefully"--without giving up too much power elsewhere, i.e. cheaply--pull from multiple lists must be even stronger. That's probably not what your player is thinking of, though.

I would recommend one of the following (noting that I can't comment on PF options):


(1) Bardsader. Bard 4/crusader 1/bard +2/crusader +1/etcetera. Yes, it requires a banned book, but it's a great entry-level gish with party support and face abilities.
(2) Sorcadin. Paladin 2/sorcerer 4/spellsword 1/abjurant champion 5. Basic arcane gish with good saves and AC from class features.
(3) Ordained Champion. Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5. Basic divine gish with spontaneous quickened War domain casting.


*Cherry-picking one or two spells (say, hunter's eye on an Unseen Seer) is pretty typical, but wizard/cleric implies something more than that.

[Rebel7284]

Chameleon?

[Particle_Man]

Bard?

Factotum?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Maybe PF Sorcerer with the Razmiran Priest (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo-sorcerer-archetypes/razmiran-priest) archetype, throw in two levels of Paladin (with a PF oath), and finish with 3.5 prestige classes like Abjurant Champion (CM), Knight Phantom (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4), or even the PF Dragon Disciple.

Sorcerer 4/ Paladin 2/ Spellsword (CW) 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Knight Phantom 8 would be ideal, starting at 7th he can wear Mithral Breastplate with a Thistledown Suit (RotW) for 0% arcane spell failure. He should use a two-handed weapon and make a habit of casting Shield at the start of combat. Being good aligned he can take Arcane Preparation to be able to cast sanctified spells such as (Greater) Luminous Armor, which benefits from Abjurant Champion's class features later on. Have him start play with a Rod of Bodily Restoration (MIC) which he can use to fix the Str damage that occurs when Luminous Armor ends.

[Rebel7284]

Also, Fochlucan Lyrist allows you to be a Wizard/Cleric/Fighter in a single class, but the entry requirements mean that you can't enter it until level 11 and you need to have a certain amount of system mastery to do it with a wizard/cleric base.

In case the player wants to go that way,
Hellbred[Body] (for druidic)
Savage Bard 1/Wizard 4/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 2/Fochlucan Lyrist 6/Abjurant Champion 5

Evasion can be obtained with a ring of evasion or the Incarnum feats.
Early entry with Primary Contact[Perform (string instruments)]

You end up with 17th level Wizard casting, 10th level Ur Priest casting, and 14BAB (16 Fractional BAB)

So with fractional BAB, at level 20, it meets all the criteria.

On an unrelated note, Archivist can learn many spells that are normally arcane. An Archivist gish could work too.

[Quertus]

So, as a 2e player forced to play 3e, let me say, F/M/C is the "I can do anything at relatively competent levels" character. Fight? Check. Heal? Check? Sling spells? Check. It's the "it doesn't matter what the rules are, or who the GM is, I should be able to do something" option.

It's also the, "****, a new edition? What am I going to like?" choice - from a 2e perspective, that is.

One first-time player made a Druid Arcane Archer. She discovered that she likes the archery, and the animal companion.

So, IMO, what you need to focus on is a lack of focus. Give them a character with more options than they'll possibly be able to use, and let them focus on the one or two that they find that they like. Don't make them a Greenbond Summoner, only to find out that they don't enjoy minions. Give them a character that will be functional with only one or two of its four or five roles.

And, because of the specific request, make sure that those roles include Striker, Healer, and Spell Slinger.

For a more specific suggestion? Eh, others have already covered Cleric and Arcane Spellcaster. So, a build? Something that will look cool to a 2e player? Hmmm... Well, asking for F/M/C, he may well be expecting an elf. How about arctic wood elf Lion Totem Barbarian 1 / Arcane Spellcaster 4 / Tainted Sorcerer 2? Gives him limited doses of any kind of casting, plus the pounce he's probably accustomed to from 2e. Racial mods of +2/+2/+0/-2/+0/-2 will make Int pricy, but Tainted Sorcerer casts off Taint / Wisdom, so that just hurts our skills.

For feats, start with Toughness and Troll-Blooded. He can easily recovery from making mistakes, especially wading into melee when he shouldn't. After that? I'd say Eschew Materials, but Tainted Sorcerer covers that in spades. If going the Ranger route (below), I'd say maybe aim for Sudden Quicken (probably primarily for Lion's Charge), to introduce him to metamagics, but wow is it suboptimal. I'd suggest Craft Wondrous Item, but he may be sad, as he's accustomed to gaining XP for creating items, not spending them - but it might be OK if you use the Pathfinder rules, or RAW let him purchase XP components in large enough settlements.

For skills, Concentration, Hide, Spellcraft, & K:Arcana, probably, with Barbarian giving you Survival and...?

For items, start with a great axe and a bow. He really looks like a Barbarian, not a caster. Add Cloak of Elvenkind (2e coolness points) and 3rd Eye of Concentration (help with casting in melee). And a few 1st level Eternal Wands that don't require saving throws - things like Lesser Vigor, Grease, Create Water, Mending. And add Resistance to the Cloak a) because his saving throws are abysmal; b) to help introduce him to the idea that b1) items can be combined in 3e; b2) items can be "taken back to the shop" to be further enchanted, as these are changes from 2e.

For spells known, a random assortment of tools for different purposes, from Entangle to Wield Skill to Resurgence to Glitter Dust to Scorching Ray to Invisibility to Animate Dead (which, as a Tainted Sorcerer, he casts "for free", which, IMO, is the biggest draw of the build). If he took item creation feats, you may need to save space for key item-creation spells.

Hopefully, this will allow him the opportunity to engage with the most different minigames, and provide something that he latches onto and enjoys, while introducing him to important mechanics and rules changes. Personally, I think I'd enjoy playing this character.

Or, not as effective, but looks cooler, and ignores XP penalties (if you play with those) arctic wood elf Ranger 2 / Arcane Spellcaster 4 / Tainted Sorcerer 1. This lets him fight with the traditional Long Sword / Short Sword combo of the 2e Elf F/M/C without being completely useless.

If you use level adjustment buyoff, you could give him a +1 LA template to introduce him to templates. "Dark" seems both humorous and useful here.

Tweak to match the balance of the table, and his personal preferences.

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Oh, and why of why would you ban tbo9s?

[Quertus]

So, thinking about this thread some more, my answer was based on a specific balance point, and a specific set of concerns. To give a more general answer, it depends on a few things.

What is your table's balance range (or is game balance even a consideration your table)? Whatever it is, you should aim to create a character who, if played well, will be slightly strong for the table. Reason being, he won't be played well. At first. Eventually, he might manage to know when to cast, when to heal, when to swing a pointy stick. But his experience with 2e will have him "knowing" all the wrong answers to these questions, and his experience will - initially - serve him as well as the captain of the Titanic's did.

So, IMO, the question is, when he fails, do you want his character to go down with the ship? Troll-Blooded, the con boost - these are attempts keep character from going down with ship of his mistakes. Perhaps more importantly, do you want the player to go down with the ship?

Asking to play a F/M/C in 2e is kinda a power play - at low OP, it's one of the strongest builds, IMO. So, at a guess, between that and him asking you to build his character for him, you're looking at someone who isn't going to put much effort into optimization / understanding the character, but who wants power nonetheless. If they don't get what they want, will they abandon the character, or leave? If the character dies, will they (get you to) build a new character, or leave?

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You said that it's an "evil" campaign - what does that mean to your group? Does that mean "proactive"? Does that mean "greater good / ends justify the means"? Or does that mean "mustache-twirling caricatures who backstab one another"?

Tbh, the PvP scenario is much harder to answer for. Outside that, the other players can help him play good character, help him learn the mechanics, etc. With PvP on the table, who knows if the "advice" they're giving him is good advice, or just designed to give them some advantage.

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You have a lot of tools at your disposal - which tool(s) you use should depend on what you're trying to accomplish.

You don't want them to feel left out that there's an obviously good thing that you didn't give them - especially if others at the table are using it (that's kinda what "I wanna play a F/M/C" says to me).

So, do you use Leadership? If so, make sure he has a cohort (this may free up some of his excessive class desires, by splitting them between character and cohort.

Do you use Pathfinder item creation logic? Then, by all means, give him item creation feats, and let him double his effective WBL. Heck, say that a certain friendly red-robed Wizard (Quertus) even helpfully provided him a few castings of whatever spells he needed.

Or, combine the two, and make his cohort a Cleric or Wizard / Magus of the Arcane Order - someone with "all the spells" to assist in item creation.

Or maybe your group is really low OP, and my suggestions are just too much. Maybe you want to build him a character that will seem cool to him, without completely overpowering the group. Well, I've got a few suggestions for that, too.

Weapons of Legacy, for starters, are really cool, but statistically terrible. Following someone else's legend can help him feel integrated into the campaign. However, if he's forging his own legend, that can help him feel that his character is cool (and make Weapons of Legacy not completely detrimental).

True Believer is a feat that can tie him into the world - especially if you don't mind dropping in custom loot just for him in the form of items of his faith that require that feat to function. Of course, not knowing his religion myself, it's questionable whether you can give him something that will fit his "build". That's a change from 2e that may annoy him.

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Personally, since you're using Pathfinder, I think I'd consider giving him a Trompe L'oeil of a Fighter as a bodyguard, or of a Cleric as a spiritual advisor / to help in creating items.

Eh, I've got more to say, but we'll let this digest first, and see what you think.

[Florian]

They've been playing 2e for all of their life up until now and they have a very loose grasp on how mechanics work

Ok, to echo Quertus here a bit, first you have to understand how multiclassing worked in AD&D 2nd: In 3E, you have 20 levels and can fill those up with any individual class levels as you like. In AD&D, you advanced one, two or three classes in parallel. So basically a Fighter 5/Cleric 6/Wizard 4 was not the equivalent of a level 15 character, but more like we handle Gestalt/Tristalt nowadays, so Fighter // Cleric // Wizard.

Now keep that basic difference in mind when approaching what your player apparently want: Cover everything. Ah, well, we all know that this is possible, but needs and entirely different approach.

Let´s dissect it:

Fighter is potentially in, because using swords as a backup when run-in out of spells/having the wrong spells prepped makes sense. For 3.P, that's the least needed component. But see below.

Cleric/Wizard. While there's Mystic Theurge and such, that can also be handled with a little bit more finesse. Arcanist (Magammbyan Initiate) into Magaambyan Arcanis PrC 1+ will add full access to Druid spells and later the Good Domain. Being a Sorcerer/Wizard hybrid, it´s a very good class for people new to the system. Slap on 2 level of PF Paladin and mix and match with the usual 3.5E Sorcerdin components.

[Anthrowhale]

Archivist seems worth mentioning as well. It has excellent spell access imitating cleric/wizard quite well and the sage aspect benefits the whole party. It's bab is low by default, but all spells are compatible with armor and you can potentially use Polymorph from the Transformation domain to become a capable fighter.

[ericgrau]

I understand if you want to find existing classes that do it, but here's a simple houserule to allow free multiclassing: Arcane casting advances at 1/2 level per level of non-arcane casting. Divine at 1/4 (because they're already part gish). A 2nd arcane class can advance the first at 3/4 level per level. Ditto for divine. Psionics works like arcane. Round down. These bonus levels may never exceed real levels. Class features such as turning and familiar also advance, but you don't get any new class features this way like bonus feats. This replaces multiclass prestiges and may not be combined with them. There, job done.

Your fighter 2/cleric 3/wizard 2 casts as (3+5/4) = cleric 4 and (2+5/2) = wizard 4. Since 3rd level arcane spells are so important he may want instead fighter 1/cleric 3/wizard 3 to cast as cleric 4 and wizard 5. BAB is 4, which isn't great but it'll do.

This much complexity will be painfully difficult for a new player no matter what you do, whether house rule or prestiges. So do help him with spell selection and help him pick out dozens of utility scrolls. One of the biggest advantages of having dual casting is wide spell access including every utility spell imaginable. Likewise spell access for crafting is great, and he can craft gear for himself. Craft magic arms and armor could be good. Plus wondrous item as always. False life and [greater] mage armor / [greater] luminous armor will be important for melee. Or he can be an archer to combat his squishiness, and it also combines well with ray spells. Self buffing in the morning (not during combat) with long duration spells is also good in general. Mass buffs like haste might be worth a combat round, though it might have to replace BFC so choose wisely.

Explain to him that jack of all trades means he can't do anything well. So while the above tricks are good for exceptional versatility, especially outside of combat, he'll want some kind of style to focus on in combat. For example open with BFC like web or sleet storm and then pick off the stragglers with a weapon. And meanwhile his feats are focused around fighting with that weapon. Or fighting and crafting. Pick spells without a save DC or have save partial (like web). So he can deal with MAD and have a good str and con (or dex and str if using archery). And a minimum acceptable int and wis.

[bean illus]

Cloistered Cleric 20 with Knowledge + Magic + Spell domains, and DMM:Persist for Divine Power (that's giving you a Fighter BAB, except better because you pay zero Fighter levels).

For lower lactose just use classic Cleric 20 with Magic + War domains, and use the Martial weapon favored by the alignment. DMM:Quicken for Divine Power on demand.

This is best/easiest, though extend is less cheesy and way cheaper (almost free).

Extend is near useless for many spells, but hr/level buffs like divine power, magic vestment, etc are perfect.
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Otoh,
druid 5/sorcerer 2/hierophant 10/ etc
Nets 9th druid spells, 7th level sorcerer 15+ wildshape, companion familiar, and channel animal (spells through familiar).

Versatile spellcaster for heightened sorcerer spells. It's a LOT harder to play though

[Nifft]

If Druid is on the table, then the 1e Bard -- er, Fochlucan Lyrist is a neat option.

One ideal build stub might be:


Druid x / Bard y { (x + y) = 5 } / Green Whisperer 5 / Fochlucan Lyrist 10

Green Whisperer is from Dragon Magazine. You also need two feats from Magic of Incarnum (Shape Soulmeld: Impulse Boots, and Open Least Chakra: Feet), or you need a DM who allows you to use Evasion from some other source to qualify.

Since you never get Druid 5 for Wild Shape, trade that out -- maybe for Wisdom to AC and some other perks.

With fractional BAB, you'll end up at BAB +17, which is decent insofar as the Fighter side goes. Bards and Druids each get a couple of martial weapons. You'll have very good skills. Your Druid spellcasting is (15+x) so easy to hit 17 for 9ths, and on the Bard side you're (15+y) so easy to hit 16 for 6ths.

[Lapak]

It is not at all what they are looking for flavor wise - closest is probably the Sorcadin suggestion - but for a simple out-of-the-box character who can do 'useful in melee, can do healy/restorative magics, can do blasty/utility magics' you could suggest a straight Druid. It covers a lot of the ground they want mechanically and could be an interesting roleplaying twist for them.

[Yogibear41]

As for power level, he isn't the most capable player so I don't want to overload him with complex builds when he barely has a firm grasp on mechanics.

Hes gonna have a bad time in 3.5

Should have him play a fighter or something simple till he can get the rules down.

[Quertus]

There are builds which are complex to build, and builds which are complex to play. I think that the issue is, well, both, but the OP is building the character, so only play complexity matters.

In play, there are two types of complexity. A Summoner is really easy to play terms of tactics (the correct answer is to summon stuff), but really hard to play optimally (determining what summons are optimal for this scenario), and hard to actually play (too many minions to keep up with).

My suggestion was a build with a limited number of good options, so as to provide options, while not overwhelming him with choices. A character who usually has at least one "push this button for something good" option in most circumstances. And limited ability to make too bad of a choice (ie, hard to die by charging in against overwhelming odds, easy to cast when surrounded, not going to waste his only spell slot, etc).

[bean illus]

Of course we can still probably break your campaign with cleric wizard fighter, lol. There are plenty of acfs.

But, there is one prc that has Wis to spontaneous arcane spells.
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030315a

d6, requirements: bab +5, Hide 5, Knowledge (nature) 3, Move Silently 8, Ride 5, Wilderness Lore 8.
Feats: Improved Initiative, Track

Darkhunter is a 10 level prc with 3/4 bab, and strong fort+refl saves. Each level has some gem worth considering (fly, haste, freedom of movement, scent, darkvision, fast movement, etc).
It's a solid utility build, and lets the cleric stay somewhat SAD.

Iron chef: Darkhunter
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?186097-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-XVIII

A cleric 13/ darkhunter 7 gets 7/4 casting (spontaneous wis on the arcane). Throw in cloistered and ordained champion for more domains, skills, spells, feats, and umd. Take Magic domain and wield wiz wands n scrolls.

[gkathellar]

I'll echo anyone who has suggested just running a mixed cleric. You'll basically get what you want.

[bean illus]

Human
12, 12, 14 - 10, 16, 14

Cloistered cleric 4
Paragnostic Apostle 2
Ordained Champion 5
Darkhunter 1
Mystic theurge 8

17/10 cleric/darkhunter casting.
5 domains: Strength, wrath, knowledge, war, magic.

2 bonus feats.
Feat tax = 3 feats? Imp Initiative, Track, precocious apprentice.

You could replace 3 MT levels with more PA levels and get 2 more domains, and keep most DK access.

[GrayDeath]

Ina ddition to all the massively complicated builds: Why not simply play a Bard?
Its solid in a fight, a solid caster, has good skills, can heal, and if he does not like the Music Buff aspect, there are ACF`s to circumvent that.
And if he finds out he is up for more complicated stuff, there is Sublime Chord for 9th level Spells.

Choose the right race and items and it`ll even be somewhat tough.

[Florian]

*Laugh*

I actually wanted some verbal sparing with Quertus, but Grey Death is somewhat right.

Instead of Bard, I actually propose Spiritualist. Good arcane/psychic/divine spell lost, plus a "Fighter" per to boot, especially when combining a melee-heavy build with a Rage Phantom.

[Doxkid]

Bard 20 will get the job done, but a few martial prestige classes wouldn't hurt. For a first session just drop them on a bard and work your way out from there.

[Quertus]

*Laugh*

I actually wanted some verbal sparing with Quertus,

Eh, there's a) too many ways to skin this cat, and b) too much we don't know about b1) the player's experience and expectations and b2) the OP's table for me to know what strategies are optimal. So I'm not sure if I'm a good sparring partner on this topic. I'm just... taking my best shot based on my own personal experience, with both myself and other players.

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

Gonna echo lapak; just go Druid. A complicated build for an inexperienced player is just gonna complicate things.
Tons of options, does most essential things well, emulates many cleric healing buffing functions, wizard area effect spells. Check out eggynack's handbook for the better summons and wild shapes. An experienced player can break the game with a Druid, they get all the toys except metal armor. Should emulate most of what he wants while he learns how to use it.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Ina ddition to all the massively complicated builds: Why not simply play a Bard?
Its solid in a fight, a solid caster, has good skills, can heal, and if he does not like the Music Buff aspect, there are ACF`s to circumvent that.
And if he finds out he is up for more complicated stuff, there is Sublime Chord for 9th level Spells.

Choose the right race and items and it`ll even be somewhat tough.


Bard 20 will get the job done, but a few martial prestige classes wouldn't hurt. For a first session just drop them on a bard and work your way out from there.

And why not both? After the first level or two of Sublime Chord, dive into a full-BAB, full casting progression PrC. Combine with Bard equivalent of standard Sorcadin fun for more "divine" feel (on top of the buffing/healing a Bard already provides). Something like Paladin 2/Bard 8/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 3 hits the gish sweet spot of 9th-level spells and BAB +16, and at high levels you even end up with a turning pool for fun times. Or I guess just Bard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/whatever for a more straightforward/more martial option. Although to be honest single-classed Bard is probably a better idea for a new player hoping to pick up basic system mastery.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Divine bard with Alternative Source Spell and sublime chord 2/full BAB & full casting PrC would work well enough, I think. Use that feat that gives you some arcane cantrips you can prepare to qualify for A.S.S. Alternative Source Spell.

...and I just realized what the acronym for that feat is...