Players constantly dying

[Yael]

@title

I've been running an adventure since level 1st. The party started in the Sunless Citadel and went through the Forge of Fury, up until now where they are fighting off the Sinister Spire. The game started as most sunless games start, with a party going through the goblins and kobolds, but when they reached a certain level they started dying over and over and I'm kinda in a dilema.
The original party was formed by Kylian, a human paladin, Cassandra, a killoren druid, Marian, a hengeyokai rogue, Ambush, a human wizard, and Lucifer, the tiefling nomad.

Kylian the Paladin died against the hobgoblin chief at the citadel, though the player switched to another character and wanted me to play his paladin at least until the adventure was over. 1st.
Lucifer the nomad died by being reckless and exploring ahead by himself, making a lot of noise and alerting the troglodytes, who freed a brown bear and got mauled to death by it. 2nd
Zorarth, an orc barbarian, died soon after against the troglodyte village down below, whereas the party knew about their presence, got spotted and left the area, giving the troglodytes chance to prepare. 3rd
Shamu, an antropomorphic orca died in a prelude to the World Born Dead adventure, in a catacomb and by a necrotic carnex's death throes. 4th
Arngrim the cleric died in the ruins of Kunduskaar, killed by a Wight, and transformed into one. 5th
Marian died in the earth node, when going for the bones of the forgotten king, eaten by giant roaches. 6th
Ambush died in the same battle as Marian. 7th
Floki, a soulknife, died twice, once killed by the kuo toa guarding the entrance to Pedestal, and got reincarnated into a high elf, but died once again under the invisible Phantom Fungi, from Rykalrion isle. 8th/9th
Luka died in the same encounter as Floki's 2nd death. He was a vanara monk. 10th
Tharatiel, the water orc crusader, died on the Destruction trap in the first floor of the Necromancer's Spire, the party had the ring that supresses the trap effect and knew about its presence, yet he still lead the way without the ward of the ring, and got utterly destroyed by the spell effect. 11th

Lucifer, Shamu and Floki were from the same player.
Zorarth, Arngrim, and Tharatiel were from the same player.
Kylian, Ambush, and Luka were from the same player.

I don't really know if it is the adventure's fault or mine. Are published adventures too strict? Should I nerf encounters? I'm worrying a bit because I don't like my PCs dying and I feel they are just getting behind and behind. The party is around level 6-7th and consists of an artificer, a druid (OParty), a wizard, a warblade, and an ogre barbarian, and they are at the 3rd floor of the necromancer's spire. I had planned to make them go through early stages of the Atropus campaign (faint sign) and then to go into the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk, but I'm not sure anymore, as statted NPCs start to go online and they have real problems against basically everything.

Thoughts?

[ngilop]

Nothing you can do short of handing over IWIN cards to the players prevent character death because of player stupidity.


and a big chunk of this is as you stated the cause of the character's death in a majority were the direct results of player decisions.

[AnimeTheCat]

Have any of the players complained? Characters die, it's the risk of adventuring. If they're not unhappy, there isn't an issue. If they are unhappy, look at the circumstances. Most of them (all of them) were preventable without too much effort.

[Yael]

Nothing you can do short of handing over IWIN cards to the players prevent character death because of player stupidity.


and a big chunk of this is as you stated the cause of the character's death in a majority were the direct results of player decisions.
Emphasis mine.
Yes, basically this. Most deaths have been result of not taking the situation as a threat at every step, which resulted on a death.

Have any of the players complained? Characters die, it's the risk of adventuring. If they're not unhappy, there isn't an issue. If they are unhappy, look at the circumstances. Most of them (all of them) were preventable without too much effort.

Well, no complains so far. I do understand they get the idea they have been dying because of lack of good decisions. The druid has been playing to his strengths, and survive up to the end, the rogue that died in the roaches also had his character be careful and cunning, even surviving the black dragon encounter at the end of the previous adventure.

Still, this bugs me as having players die so often makes one think who's at a fault :smallfrown:

[Mordaedil]

Well, I think you are doing alright so far. Some of these deaths look heroic, others look like they took bad risks and got bitten in the ass for it, which is pretty much the sweet spot for how it should be.

1st death, a heroic last stand it looks like. At least as long as you played it up as such.
2nd death, broke the rule of not splitting the party, felt it first hand.
3rd death, a shame, not really sure if I'd rule this as anything but bad luck.
4th death, that seems almost like it oughtn't have been a thing, but it could also be a player ignoring the clear warning signs of "do not touch". This player seems like the kind to execute on bad ideas, huh?
5th death, another chance for heroic death, albeit turning into a wight always kinda sucks.
6th death, carelessness?
7th death, another heroic death or a hopeless battle.
8th death, noticing a trend from this player.
9th death, noticing a trend from this player.
10th death, this player seems to go in hard for dying when things get hectic. Does he make bad calls when it comes to combat?
11th death, I have no words for this. He seemed to just have given up. You may need to talk to this guy.

[Selion]

A good house rule I've seen in tables:
First death: change the dice results
Second death: give the character a permanent wound
Third death : he actually dies

I had a druid who was attacked by an ooze for several turns after going negative, i should have died, I had my face orribly burnt by acid instead. We were in an ancient elfic tomb, I wore a mask for the rest of the adventure, my character thought his wound was a divine punishment and he wore it as atonement, he even refused to be healed, waiting for his powers to grow enough to heal himself, as a sign of reconciliation with nature

[MeimuHakurei]

Do you notice any behavioral differences between Cassandra's player and the rest of the group? She's the only original party member left; maybe she's onto something about how to survive the module.

[Fizban]

Are published adventures too strict? Should I nerf encounters?
Most published adventures seem to have a reputation online of being underpowered, but that's only true when your party is a well-oiled char-op machine. For a party that doesn't fit that description. . .

Most published 3.x adventures have at least one encounter that is way over the PC's heads, I think, and this corresponds to the DMG's statement that there should indeed be some encounters the PCs need to run from. Players that don't figure that out get dead PCs. Add in some sides of lone wolfing and missing roles and you'll get even more. This isn't a great list to work from and the lack of level or build details makes it extremely unclear, but let's try. P1, 2, and 3 are those mentioned with multiple deaths, P4 is the one with just the one death.



P3, Hob chief sounds like a boss, death should be an expected possibility (especially at that low of a level).
P1, Killed by a brown bear while scouting alone: brown bears are savage, but here's someone lone-wolfing off ahead and gets killed by one.
P2, situation unclear. Sounds like the whole party screwed up by losing the element of surprise and then engaging the entire camp at once and P2 just happened to have the dying character (due to low-AC melee).
P1, monstrous character with no further data on class or equipment. If run alongside a 5th level part with standard 3 HD+2 LA, they had barely any hit points. The Necrosis Carnex ignores armor, but it's still pretty odd that the character managed to die from death throes that deal 1d6+2 damage, incapable of outright killing any character that is conscious. This adventure is pulling monsters from MM4, which is also a much different era than the original 3.0 modules.
P2, a Cleric killed by a Wight? Yeah, that's pretty dang odd, because Clerics and heavy armor and shields while Wights have all of a +3 to hit. Either this Cleric has a deathwish, or you've left some serious info out.
P4 and P3 died to surprisingly dangerous Giant Roaches (nauseating aura is stronk). This player probably saw giant roaches and assumed they were pushovers, possibly due to the Fallout games including giant roaches which are pushovers. To avert this you could give them warning before walking in that the stench is so bad it might literally put them on the floor (and they should smell it a mile away). There's no indication of whether the whole party was there for this battle.
P1 played a Soulknife, which at the levels I'm guessing at here (4th to 6th) was at it's weakest. I'd bet they also weren't using a shield, making them extremely squishy to boot. The Kuo-Toa is probably one of the classed NPCs you mentioned, and a Soulknife dueling a full BAB class at 6th level is just about the worst matchup possible. Then they faced one (or more? wording unclear) permanently invisible foes apparently without the spell support required to fight permanently invisible foes. Apparently a monk PC was there with them so it wasn't lone-wolfing, but that's two underpowered melee characters fighting enemies that require magic and where were the spellcasters? This fight might be an unfair gotcha from the module, or it might have been completely avoidable.
P2's most recent death makes it sound like they should no be playing DnD: either they want a game where you can expect to walk through an instant death trap to prove how tough you are because PCs can't be insta-death'd, or they just don't care about the game anymore. This was obviously not a rational response, it's not anyone's fault but the player's.


P1 is not savvy. They scouted ahead and then failed to run away when spotted, then ran a lol monstrous character with a large level adjustment at a relatively low level, then ran a Soulknife. They are building characters and taking actions based on cool factor, which will get you killed in any game, but most especially one rooted in tactical team-based combat. This player needs help building characters and advice or warnings on how not to screw up.

P2 seems to be a team player in their first two deaths, which is a good way to get killed if part of the team is no good. Based on their third character I'm guessing they know some optimization, so it's likely the reason their Cleric was so fragile was because they were a Cloistered Cleric- making the game's most important fallback character squishier and more vulnerable when the rest of the party was unreliable. Best and most generously I can figure for the third death, maybe they thought someone else should use the ring and their optimized barbarian could totally ace the fort save on the silly trap, which would be death by hubris. This player might need a reminder that forum logic does not make you an instant winner, if my speculation is correct.

P3 played a paladin who died to a boss or mid-boss, then a wizard who died alongside the rogue, then a monk who died along with the soulknife against foes they had no chance against. Both of the latter are engagements that should have been avoided of fled from, but we don't know what else. P3 is probably a team player, but either lacks the knowledge (or is too foolish) to avoid fights they can't win, or is too loyal to abandon foolish allies. No recommended action, team players who aren't married to one role are a good thing (as long as their characters are still keeping pace with the rest of the party's op level).

P4 was the rogue who died to roaches. Big question here is: was the cleric trying to save the rogue, or the rogue trying to save the cleric, and whose fault was it they got there? P2's cleric death might have been because of P4's lone wolfing, or P4's rogue death might have been because of P2's hubris. Or the whole thing could have been an unfair gotcha from the module.

[AnimeTheCat]

Well, no complains so far. I do understand they get the idea they have been dying because of lack of good decisions. The druid has been playing to his strengths, and survive up to the end, the rogue that died in the roaches also had his character be careful and cunning, even surviving the black dragon encounter at the end of the previous adventure.

Still, this bugs me as having players die so often makes one think who's at a fault :smallfrown:

If there aren't any complaints, and the feeling you're getting from the players isn't a somber or disenfranchised one, you're not doing anything wrong. The number 1 priority for the group as a whole is to have fun, and there's only a problem if someone isn't having fun. Druids are a very heavily loaded class, lacking nearly nothing to be applicable in every situation. Rogues are less lucky in that department and are more likely to get caught with their pants down.

Don't think of a character's death as a point of fault. Like I said before, characters die. It happens. If a player is particularly bound to the character, drop a hint at a way to recover them (questing to one of the layers of hell or to the abyss to recover the ally's soul and escort it back to it's body or to the good aligned planes to petition the good deities to restore it to life) or give them a chance to otherwise remain attached to the character (I don't usually condone it, but a sibling or close friend to the recently deceased character).

When a PC dies, it's nobody's fault unless you specifically set up an encounter to kill a character, in which case you had better have discussed that with the player prior to doing it. It sounds to me like you were running a module and some of the player's characters fell victims to the threats posed. Nobody is at fault and nobody should feel any guilt. That's just the way the game goes.

[Elkad]

If they don't have a problem with it, don't worry about it. If they do...

Check their gear. Are they failing to buy/upgrade basic items? Cloak of Resistance, Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, etc.
If so, start dropping the gear they need. Either an NPC giving them all out as a reward, or on mini-bosses, or even just a S door to an ancient cache the elf detects as he walks by.

Start fudging spot/listen checks and give them a buff round.

If they aren't at the correct level, side-quest them until they are. Insert a level from a different dungeon or something.
If they are at the correct level and have decent gear, side-quest them until they are ahead one.


Question. Do they ever run? Not after they are losing, but immediately? Or at least try to dodge some encounters?
If not, what if you throw something completely ridiculous at them? Say an Elder Water Elemental crushes the ferry they were about to use at 4th level. Or a pair of 12-headed PyroHydras are guarding the bridge, and they get to watch an NPC get incinerated for eleventy-bajillion damage from a distance?

[Torpin]

how many of the players are new? Because it sounds to me like a lot in inexperience.

[Yael]

Well, I think you are doing alright so far. Some of these deaths look heroic, others look like they took bad risks and got bitten in the ass for it, which is pretty much the sweet spot for how it should be.

1st death, a heroic last stand it looks like. At least as long as you played it up as such.
Yep, the paladin died off holding the hobgoblin leader, a goblin cleric, and two hobgoblins while the party fought the rest of the goblins in their village room, he held them 4 whole turns until the party had to run away because of bad luck rolling.

8th death, noticing a trend from this player.
9th death, noticing a trend from this player.
Yeah, both favor the coolnes > usefulness on their concepts and characters.

10th death, this player seems to go in hard for dying when things get hectic. Does he make bad calls when it comes to combat?
He does kinda try, but his choice for features were given by his brother, an experienced DM that states that monk IS the best class, so I don't know anymore.

11th death, I have no words for this. He seemed to just have given up. You may need to talk to this guy.
They didin't expect the trap, but they knew the trap. I was careful to make sure they were given the ring to prevent the trap the very same session, and even told them the "room where anything that passes by is killed instantly" was described as on the very entry (and it is, really.) The player didn't make the save and even if he did, he was not full in HP because just before they fought a drow guard post. I didn't rush them though, I asked what their course of action would be and this player planned to scout ahead, and the player who had the ring was behind healing his wounds. So, yeah.

A good house rule I've seen in tables:
First death: change the dice results
Second death: give the character a permanent wound
Third death : he actually dies

I had a druid who was attacked by an ooze for several turns after going negative, i should have died, I had my face orribly burnt by acid instead. We were in an ancient elfic tomb, I wore a mask for the rest of the adventure, my character thought his wound was a divine punishment and he wore it as atonement, he even refused to be healed, waiting for his powers to grow enough to heal himself, as a sign of reconciliation with nature
This is cool, if things keep going as they are, I may apply 2nd and 3rd death rules as a times-of-need option.

Do you notice any behavioral differences between Cassandra's player and the rest of the group? She's the only original party member left; maybe she's onto something about how to survive the module.
The player always plays it safe. He got a wild cohort early on and along its animal compaion, he plays it pretty good at the support role, healing with lesser vigor and often summoning (or at least before) for flanking and mook soak (he uses the Conjure Ice Beast line so that's a thing.) The variant chosen, however, was the Sidhe scholar, and even for fluff purposes, this has nerfed its utility inside a city (where they are now), as the animal companion cannot enter any settlement. The wild cohort was fine, but he retrained the feat and they are in a strictly urban campaign (the orca death was also inside a city so there was no animal companion support.) I talked to this player about the consequences of having this feature and he was fine with it, so we rolled with it.
At the current level he is (he's obviously ahead in level), he tends to wild shape into a fleshraker and go full melee when things go dire, basically he was the only reason they could beat a Bone Golem spider construct encounter before, because the rest of the party did nothing against it.

Most published 3.x adventures have at least one encounter that is way over the PC's heads, I think, and this corresponds to the DMG's statement that there should indeed be some encounters the PCs need to run from.
Yes, my party isn't the "fight to the bitter end!" type of group. They fight off whenever they see a fair / advantageous fight, and run whenever they see themselves in a bad spot, though they have a thing of not letting one die, so when one party member falls, they try to take him with them so they can escape. They did this in a very creative way once, and I rewarded them for it, though as you can see, it has not repeated.


P2, situation unclear. Sounds like the whole party screwed up by losing the element of surprise and then engaging the entire camp at once and P2 just happened to have the dying character (due to low-AC melee).
The party was split in this fight because of the cavernous formation. The barbarian went all "kickin' the door" style and was aided by the druid's animal companion, the rest were fighting off outside against the miniboss, a troglodyte sorcerer with a cavernous lizard companion, who had enough level to cast invisibility and high enough intelligence to think how to deal with lots of enemies.
The party had to run because things were not good, and troglodytes were too much prepared for the fight (not really, they were just prepared and had a ready action to charge whoever entered their lair), so at a point, the druid summoned an ice beast inside the room where the fight was, and its cod aura was pretty effective on low-HD critters, but it also hit the barbarian multiple times, and a barrage of missed rolls from him and critical hits on claws and javelins put him down. They ran in different paths and met in a previous spot, yet no barbarian in sight.

P1, monstrous character with no further data on class or equipment. If run alongside a 5th level part with standard 3 HD+2 LA, they had barely any hit points. The Necrosis Carnex ignores armor, but it's still pretty odd that the character managed to die from death throes that deal 1d6+2 damage, incapable of outright killing any character that is conscious. This adventure is pulling monsters from MM4, which is also a much different era than the original 3.0 modules.
He was eager to play an antropomorphic orca, so I gave him the chance of doing so at its LA and by taking RHD up until it was completed, and he agreed. He had his ECL 3 gear (which he spent in a +1 Greatsword and a bunch of mundane stuff), and was constantly warned about the risks of having only 1 HD, even if he had high Con.
This encounter isn't a published one, it was a side mision based on the Atropus adventure line from the Elder Evils, and served to have them get early information about the greater scope of the campaign. This was an unique encounter against the Necrotic Carnex, and a level 3 evil cleric.
They fought inside a tomb and were basically ambushed by a priest that was trying to escape. The party had aid from two clerics (a gnome cleric fighter they saved from the Sunless Citadel, who became a recurring NPC that owes his life to the party, and a local priest), and they were doing a good job, the druid was (without his ACompanion) in a dire spot and was given a protection from evil from the gnome so she wouldn't be in danger of the summoned owlbear skeleton summoned, and the orca was fighting the carnex, though he was critted down to negatives and the party took the choice of killing the foes first and healing the orca shortly after (he was stabilized by a cure minor), though he was at -5. The party had zero knowledge skills to know about the carnex and the clerics didn't roll high (here I realized the gnome had no religion ranks, I was like whaaaat?) and the explosion killed off the orca, and nearly the druid.

P2, a Cleric killed by a Wight? Yeah, that's pretty dang odd, because Clerics and heavy armor and shields while Wights have all of a +3 to hit. Either this Cleric has a deathwish, or you've left some serious info out.
This encounter was not that tough to be honest, especially with a cleric in the party. Two large skeletons and a wight wearing a half plate. The bad catch was that the wight started hitting hard the rogue and got a fair bit of THP, plus when the cleric stepped up, he was also hit twice and the negative levels were too much, including a critical hit from the wight's slam, which left the cleric with 3 negative levels, and when he tried to run away (he couldn't withdraw because of objects and characters in the way) he got hit again with another slam and was lowered to enough negative levels to equal his HD, to which he died and raised as a wight in 1 round (low roll), but the party had enough summons and a better position to fight them off. Especially when the druid summoned a dire wolf to fight. After the fight, the cleric remembered his turn undead ability he didn't use.

P4 and P3 died to surprisingly dangerous Giant Roaches (nauseating aura is stronk). This player probably saw giant roaches and assumed they were pushovers, possibly due to the Fallout games including giant roaches which are pushovers. To avert this you could give them warning before walking in that the stench is so bad it might literally put them on the floor (and they should smell it a mile away). There's no indication of whether the whole party was there for this battle.
They reached the Earth Node and got teleported in the lair. I adviced them on the floor full of death insect carcasses and a really bad smell. Shortly after, the rogue turned into a fox and went exploring the caves, the rest of the party were to follow up squeezing through the spaces, but the rogue entering the spaces triggered the encounter.
Two Giant Roaches, three unusually large roaches (actual name) and a roach swarm, plus an environment effect where the whole floor is filled with a carpet of roaches, which deal 1d6 damage to everything that's prone (except roaches). Giant Roaches and Unusually large have a trip ability (same as wolf's), and they are medium and small size (respectively), so their odds of tripping aren't THAT low.
The fox was caught with a giant roach and got tripped (lost the trip even with high DEX and +4 due to four legs), furthermore he failed the fort save, which had him taking lots of damage in there. I didn't get the roach to go all execute mode, but even so, the damage was so great he could even stand, and in his fox forme he couldn't access his gear, so he tried to escape, failed and got tripped again, this time with enough damage to reach negatives. Meanwhile, the party was fighting another giant, 3 large and a swarm, which got to trip the wizard and had him low because of the swarm attack and the carpet of roaches, the druid got a nice flamming sphere to hit hard the swarm and only lasted two rounds, though they weren't paying attention at the wizard, and because the druid and the warblade were fighting the giant and large roaches, the wizard got eaten by the carpet of roaches with two consecutive 6s on the damage rolls.
It was not a hard fight, but the party did split, and you know what they say~

P1 played a Soulknife, which at the levels I'm guessing at here (4th to 6th) was at it's weakest. I'd bet they also weren't using a shield, making them extremely squishy to boot. The Kuo-Toa is probably one of the classed NPCs you mentioned, and a Soulknife dueling a full BAB class at 6th level is just about the worst matchup possible. Then they faced one (or more? wording unclear) permanently invisible foes apparently without the spell support required to fight permanently invisible foes. Apparently a monk PC was there with them so it wasn't lone-wolfing, but that's two underpowered melee characters fighting enemies that require magic and where were the spellcasters? This fight might be an unfair gotcha from the module, or it might have been completely avoidable.
No shield on the soulknife.
Must add this fight was needed but at the same time optional, as a clever party could have gotten around this and go straight to the point of the adventure with some careful planning.
There were two Phantom Fungus, and nobody prepared for them. The party was well around level 5-6th, and they had already experienced advanced combat situations (2D to 3D in the Black Dragon encounter before, as it was in an underground lake and used hit and run tactics), but even so they had no way of correctly pointing the plants. The artificer in the group (2nd character from the rogue player) had a scroll of blindsight, which helped him see and pinpoint the enemies so the pcs would have a good chance of hitting them with spells and attacks, the crusader did his best to protect the characters, but the (revived) soulknife had been behind in HD and abilities (he was given an amulet of health +2 the artificer crafted for him) and still died by a fungi. I must add that they are advanced in HD from 2 to 5 with Power Attack, and even if they are stated not to use their power attack at its full capacity, it was still enough to down the soulknife AND the monk in the same round because of the cleave feat.

P2's most recent death makes it sound like they should no be playing DnD: either they want a game where you can expect to walk through an instant death trap to prove how tough you are because PCs can't be insta-death'd, or they just don't care about the game anymore. This was obviously not a rational response, it's not anyone's fault but the player's.
I'm not sure if this is the thing. He was surprised, yet he recognized it was his fault for going full explorer on the clearly dangerous dungeon up ahead.


P1 is not savvy. They scouted ahead and then failed to run away when spotted, then ran a lol monstrous character with a large level adjustment at a relatively low level, then ran a Soulknife. They are building characters and taking actions based on cool factor, which will get you killed in any game, but most especially one rooted in tactical team-based combat. This player needs help building characters and advice or warnings on how not to screw up.
Trust me that he is given all the help he can get, still plays what he wants, which is fine, but death is most of the time what awaits him. His last character is a dwarf sorcerer with his spell selection being odd and his only item is a Robe of Useful Items.0
Ghost Sound
Caltrops
Prestidigitation
Daze
Flare
Dancing Lights

1st
Kelgore's Firebolt
Enlarge Person
Magic Missile
Greater Mage Hand

2nd
Descicatting Bubble

3rd
Acid Breath

P2 seems to be a team player in their first two deaths, which is a good way to get killed if part of the team is no good. Based on their third character I'm guessing they know some optimization, so it's likely the reason their Cleric was so fragile was because they were a Cloistered Cleric- making the game's most important fallback character squishier and more vulnerable when the rest of the party was unreliable. Best and most generously I can figure for the third death, maybe they thought someone else should use the ring and their optimized barbarian could totally ace the fort save on the silly trap, which would be death by hubris. This player might need a reminder that forum logic does not make you an instant winner, if my speculation is correct.
Considering he was going a bard crusader build, without using his inspire courage like never, he was probably inspired by the forums.


P3 played a paladin who died to a boss or mid-boss, then a wizard who died alongside the rogue, then a monk who died along with the soulknife against foes they had no chance against. Both of the latter are engagements that should have been avoided of fled from, but we don't know what else. P3 is probably a team player, but either lacks the knowledge (or is too foolish) to avoid fights they can't win, or is too loyal to abandon foolish allies. No recommended action, team players who aren't married to one role are a good thing (as long as their characters are still keeping pace with the rest of the party's op level).
He's the most unexperienced along with P2. Yet he's given tips from his brother, and he's on the Monk side, so I don't discredit his brother's advice because of respect, yet still remind him of how good the monk is whenever he asks.


If they don't have a problem with it, don't worry about it. If they do...

Check their gear. Are they failing to buy/upgrade basic items? Cloak of Resistance, Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, etc.
If so, start dropping the gear they need. Either an NPC giving them all out as a reward, or on mini-bosses, or even just a S door to an ancient cache the elf detects as he walks by.

Start fudging spot/listen checks and give them a buff round.

If they aren't at the correct level, side-quest them until they are. Insert a level from a different dungeon or something.
If they are at the correct level and have decent gear, side-quest them until they are ahead one.

Question. Do they ever run? Not after they are losing, but immediately? Or at least try to dodge some encounters?
If not, what if you throw something completely ridiculous at them? Say an Elder Water Elemental crushes the ferry they were about to use at 4th level. Or a pair of 12-headed PyroHydras are guarding the bridge, and they get to watch an NPC get incinerated for eleventy-bajillion damage from a distance?
Maybe will do. Their gear started getting coherent once they died twice, except the wizard, who's still on the wacky items like always. As long as he has fun I guess.

And they do run, it's just that most encounters they face are in environmental situations where entering and exiting is hard, but the choice is always there.

how many of the players are new? Because it sounds to me like a lot in inexperience.
Two are newish to the game (paladin > wizard > monk > barbarian; and barbarian > cleric > crusader > warblade), but I must recognize they put a lot of effort reading their abilities and class fluff, still they miss stuff sometimes.

[bean illus]

If a player is particularly bound to the character, drop a hint at a way to recover them ...

Do this, and let the rest play out.

There is other common sense advice here too.

[denthor]

Repeat after me.

I am playing a dice game.


That said if your players find a dead NPC loot the body. That means that something like them died at that point. If it was not defeated there would be no reason for their group to go in.

I'm always surprised when people think I put so much into this character it must survive until I am finished with the game. As they happily find better equipment then they have. From those that had it first and did not survive.

You do not die of old age in an adventure module.

[Yael]

Repeat after me.

I am playing a dice game.


That said if your players find a dead NPC loot the body. That means that something like them died at that point. If it was not defeated there would be no reason for their group to go in.

I'm always surprised when people think I put so much into this character it must survive until I am finished with the game. As they happily find better equipment then they have. From those that had it first and did not survive.

You do not die of old age in an adventure module.

This is so surprisingly accurate.

The party druid actually started asking new members to sign their consent on burial or burn to ashes upon death.

[Crake]

Repeat after me.

I am playing a dice game.


That said if your players find a dead NPC loot the body. That means that something like them died at that point. If it was not defeated there would be no reason for their group to go in.

I'm always surprised when people think I put so much into this character it must survive until I am finished with the game. As they happily find better equipment then they have. From those that had it first and did not survive.

You do not die of old age in an adventure module.

In most of the games I play in people generally use the same character from start to finish. Knowing when to retreat and not doing anything stupid are pretty valuable life skills. Also information gathering on your upcoming fights is pretty useful too.

[Mordaedil]

Yael, you seem like a fine DM and it sounds like you are on the right track here with the game. Just make sure everybody is having fun and that people still want to play and I think you are on the right track.

If somebody is immediately like "I never want to play D&D again" after dying, that means they need some time to mourn their character. Respect that, but be open to them coming back later after they've cooled down.

Though from the sound of things, I think your players are more okay with dying than most people I've played with. But it might happen even now, especially with a character they really connected with. For example the druid character at this point might be quite attached to her character being the only one to have lived through the entire game to this point, and thus serving as the central person who knows the adventure from start to this point. If the unthinkable happens, this might be where it hits hardest.

Not saying it will, but this is a good way to deal with it if it does. And if they don't come back with a new character by next week, it might be time to have a talk about what happens next and work something out.

Fun first.

[J-H]

I think this is mostly player-driven. Just one thought.

If you haven't been, start employing this:

Steady gaze, eye contact over the screen. Deadpan voice and expressionless face.
"Are you sure you want to do that?"

It might have prevented the Barbarian death. If it didn't - you are 100% absolved of any responsibility for the party's foolishness.

[rel]

You can always run the monsters with less tactical acumen. You would be surprised how big a difference that makes.

In my experience the kind of players that need the help never question or even notice the difference.

[ksbsnowowl]

I agree with everyone else; if the players aren't complaining, I think you're okay. Many of the deaths were due to player stupidity, or bad decisions (though the PC's might not have had enough info to determine the right decision in some cases). It's the way the game is.

As to the giant roaches & roach swarm, I was in a group that played through the Sinister Spire. I (and my Druid with Fiery Burst) happened to be gone the week they encountered that area. When I came back the next week they were lamenting my absence, as the swarm nearly killed people, & my Fiery Burst would have helped immensely. People nearly died, and it was a party of 5 or 6 people (I think 5 with me absent). I will warn you that the module is VERY deadly. In the spire there is an encounter where wraiths (or some other incorporeal undead) pop out of the floor and deal Con damage. I was wild shaped, and I reached a point where I would die in 5 hours if we couldn't find a way to heal my Con damage before my Wild Shape ended. Then, in the final encounter, we basically had a TPK, as the main boss slowly turned all of us but one to stone. That module actually ended our campaign, and the play group disbanded afterward (it was a secondary group for me, giving me a chance to play rather than DM, so I was okay with it).

I would almost suggest inventing some side missions, given to the party by the mysterious Es'Sark (or whatever his name is), and have them gain an extra level or two before sending them into the necromancer's spire.

[Yael]

I agree with everyone else; if the players aren't complaining, I think you're okay. Many of the deaths were due to player stupidity, or bad decisions (though the PC's might not have had enough info to determine the right decision in some cases). It's the way the game is.

As to the giant roaches & roach swarm, I was in a group that played through the Sinister Spire. I (and my Druid with Fiery Burst) happened to be gone the week they encountered that area. When I came back the next week they were lamenting my absence, as the swarm nearly killed people, & my Fiery Burst would have helped immensely. People nearly died, and it was a party of 5 or 6 people (I think 5 with me absent). I will warn you that the module is VERY deadly. In the spire there is an encounter where wraiths (or some other incorporeal undead) pop out of the floor and deal Con damage. I was wild shaped, and I reached a point where I would die in 5 hours if we couldn't find a way to heal my Con damage before my Wild Shape ended. Then, in the final encounter, we basically had a TPK, as the main boss slowly turned all of us but one to stone. That module actually ended our campaign, and the play group disbanded afterward (it was a secondary group for me, giving me a chance to play rather than DM, so I was okay with it).

I would almost suggest inventing some side missions, given to the party by the mysterious Es'Sark (or whatever his name is), and have them gain an extra level or two before sending them into the necromancer's spire.

Well, this sumarizes the adventure so far.
The party is near the fight with Fadheela, as they have already beaten the Orcus Shrine, and they almost died at the encounter against the Voidwraith and the two Necromentals, as they fought in the little chamber before the shrine and they were all around the Voidwraith, constantly losing their breath due to standard actions and taking damage from the burning curtain, the necromentals, negative levels, and Con Drain, so it was a pretty tough encounter. They dealt with it (one character reached -8), but they could make it through, so all they have left is the final fight.

As for Es Sarch, yes, I was considering they to be given more misions, but they are oppenly annoyed about being in the Underdark, they want to leave but at the same time they feel if they don't complete the quest, it will be a defeat (this comes from the druid player), so they do not want to leave the Spire up until they finish. Next sesion is this friday, and I hope they do not die to the medusa, as she's strong as she is.

[Selion]

Well, this sumarizes the adventure so far.
The party is near the fight with Fadheela, as they have already beaten the Orcus Shrine, and they almost died at the encounter against the Voidwraith and the two Necromentals, as they fought in the little chamber before the shrine and they were all around the Voidwraith, constantly losing their breath due to standard actions and taking damage from the burning curtain, the necromentals, negative levels, and Con Drain, so it was a pretty tough encounter. They dealt with it (one character reached -8), but they could make it through, so all they have left is the final fight.

As for Es Sarch, yes, I was considering they to be given more misions, but they are oppenly annoyed about being in the Underdark, they want to leave but at the same time they feel if they don't complete the quest, it will be a defeat (this comes from the druid player), so they do not want to leave the Spire up until they finish. Next sesion is this friday, and I hope they do not die to the medusa, as she's strong as she is.

Anyway, they died for mistakes, do you think these mistakes are players' mistakes or characters' mistakes?
I mean that it happens that a player has to make her character take a poor decision in the sake of role-playing.
For example, i'm playing a character with wisdom 8, i know that I will do something stupid and i fell somewhat sorry that this hasn't happened already.
The same thing may happens for other reasons: a proud warrior would dislike resting to recover when he knows the enemy is near.
By the way, as it has been said, if your players don't complain too much it's not a problem.
Share with us the next fight :)

[Quertus]

OP, I only skimmed, but I see a few issues.

"At the current level he is (he's obviously ahead in level), he tends to wild shape into a fleshraker"

"states that monk IS the best class"

"orca, so I gave him the chance of doing so at its LA and by taking RHD up until it was completed, and he agreed. He had his ECL 3 gear"

So, you've got wildly divergent optimization levels, wildly divergent power levels, possibly divergent play skill levels, and divergent character levels. Worse, they're all stacked the same way. So, the most skilled player has the most optimized, highest level, highest tier character. Does that sound balanced to anyone?

My recommendation is to a) make everyone the same level. Have a "party XP" level, and new characters come at that. B) consider letting the players who suffer a lot of deaths (and like playing suboptimal characters) have free level adjustment, or even free levels. C) don't play such deadly modules with noobs.

I personally wouldn't do this, but you might consider d) giving the noobs build advice.

[Deophaun]

My first thought was tainted Mountain Dew, but I don't see any recalls recently. Maybe just stop recruiting new members in the ICU? Or open the group up to people who aren't 90+ years old?

[Calthropstu]

If your PLAYERS are constantly dying, I'd move to a safer neighborhood.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Do you notice any behavioral differences between Cassandra's player and the rest of the group? She's the only original party member left; maybe she's onto something about how to survive the module.That character is cursed to know the future deaths of the other PCs, but the PCs will never believe her.

[GrayDeath]

My first thought was tainted Mountain Dew, but I don't see any recalls recently. Maybe just stop recruiting new members in the ICU? Or open the group up to people who aren't 90+ years old?


If your PLAYERS are constantly dying, I'd move to a safer neighborhood.


Late to the party, hm? ^^
I would have posted the same if I had read this before the first 18 posts though, so.....yeah. :D

[Fizban]

Incidentally, I took a look at that module, and that's not your players getting themselves killed in The Sinister Spire. The "5th" level module is nothing but encounters *above* the party's expected level, with massive strategic advantages boosting the monsters. The Phantom Fungi? Their CR isn't even right- they advanced them by MM advancement formula, +4 HD and the resulting size increase, but didn't add the extra +1 CR for that size increase. So that "+1 CR" is 4x the hp and 2x the damage of a monster that can usually be hard countered by Burning Hands. They hand out stat drain and negative levels with no one in the party (or even the town IIRC) capable of curing them.

Being as those sounded like the most questionable deaths, I figured it might be nice to know the fights weren't fair in the first place. Especially with soulknives and monks. If you haven't got there already, I'd highly recommend checking the rest of the module carefully, 'cause there's a bunch more custom monsters with custom arenas to come. As seems to be the usual for these late 3.5 modules, it's pretty good. . . for a party 1-2 levels higher than printed on the book.

[Yael]

Well, the outcome was yesterday. The medusa got to petrify 3 out of 4 party members, the last party member got to escape and return with a group of NPCs to discover the statues left there, but the objects of interest of the quest were gone.

The party was going fine, but the medusa was stealth-sniping the PCs and weirdly enough (with a -20 to its hide check) no one got to spot her. No casualties at the end.

How things are, I'm gonna check the next module in case the party wants to follow up on the lead of the bones (Fortress of the Yuan Ti), to tone things down. The party is now at 6.5 average EL, so I'm probably gonna tone down most challenges for this. Welp, my atropus campaign will have to wait a couple of levels for its introduction~

Anyone got thoughts on the Fortress of the Yuan Ti module? :smallconfused:

[ericgrau]

Looks more like they no more about TO than PO. TO as in theoretically what's good for normal, not TO as in super cheese. I'd just keep teaching them the hard way. Challenge is part of what makes D&D fun.

I mean what they don't have is a fighter or a sorcerer or sorcerer. Barbarian and warblade are a good start. Though is the barbarian a player that died 3 times before with barbarians? Maybe he needs melee build help. Wizard could work well too but they're hard to play. It sounds like the players are already learning and picking better classes. Artificer and druid can work well too but it's a lot harder with limited experience. Still it's plain that the enitre party short of the barbarian is now at least an attempt to play high power classes. They'll probably screw up some more, but they'll probably learn too.

I'd let it be. Plus the nice thing about modules is that the difficulty is set so you don't have to worry about it being your fault. Except Google opinions to make sure the modules aren't sucky.

[Fizban]

Anyone got thoughts on the Fortress of the Yuan Ti module? :smallconfused:
I haven't checked it out, but I'd expect more of the same since it's the same adventure path. All you gotta do is look at the expected character level, then look at the ELs of the encounters, and how many extra problems the PCs have to deal with during those encounters. The newer format with all the encounters in the back makes it even faster. All the fix you should need is a bit of a sidequest to give them a level or two more than the module is advertising, and a reminder of all the bad stuff that happened last time (unless they're all soulknife monks now).


I'd let it be. Plus the nice thing about modules is that the difficulty is set so you don't have to worry about it being your fault. Except Google opinions to make sure the modules aren't sucky.
I mean, that's kinda my point isn't it? That the difficulty of this module is in fact faulty, so the DM should worry about it. Moudles aren't exempt from the same pitfalls as any other book. Overall internet opinions will probably be like overall forum opinions: lots of people saying it's great (because they player higher OP and need the challenge), and other people saying it's just a little difficult (because for them it was actually overpowered but they never considered the possibility a module would advertise the wrong PC level).

[ksbsnowowl]

All the fix you should need is a bit of a sidequest to give them a level or two more than the module is advertising, and a reminder of all the bad stuff that happened last time (unless they're all soulknife monks now).

Since the medusa is gone, and the items of interest are gone, I'm assuming the portal that the medusa took to the Fortress is also now gone? Or was it permanent?

I'm sure you've already ruled on that in game (since the players came back to get their former selves, and presumably un-petrify themselves), but I might have introduced a reason/way that the portal is still there, but currently not working/blocked. Maybe a few side missions with Es'sarch to level up a bit, and get a means to breach through the blocked portal...