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Lolzords
2007-09-20, 07:28 AM
Quick question. Are there any creatures with a +2 wisdom modifier with no level adjustment?

My friend is playing a cleric in a level one campaign and wishes to know.:smallbiggrin:

Duke of URL
2007-09-20, 07:42 AM
If Dragon magazine races are allowed, try Tortle from Dragon #315 (its favored class is Cleric, too!).

Tweekinator
2007-09-20, 07:50 AM
I'm pretty sure there's a lesser aasimar somewhere out there that gets a +2 to wisdom and has no level adjustment.

Darrin
2007-09-20, 07:57 AM
Quick question. Are there any creatures with a +2 wisdom modifier with no level adjustment?

Check the Master Player Race List Version 2.0:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=10002276

Looks like there are two choices:

Buomman: +2 Wis, -2 Cha (Planar Handbook)
Lesser Aasimar: +2 Wis, +2 Cha (Player's Guide to Faerun, I think the same as the MM entry but type is humanoid instead of outsider)

The list does not include races from Dragon Magazine, so no Tortle. Checking Crystalkeep...

Slyth: +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Str (Underdark)

Lesser Aasimar is probably the best choice.

Lord Tataraus
2007-09-20, 08:25 AM
Also in DR352 there is the Bas-lag race Khepri: +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Con, -2 Cha
Favored class cleric as well. Of course they can't speak any language but their own, but they cast spells with a language no one else can hear, so insanely high spellcraft checks to figure out what they are saying (they are bug people so its just a series of clicks and released chemicals).

Tormsskull
2007-09-20, 08:29 AM
I was just perusing through my oriental handbook (3.0) and they have a race in there called Vanar (I think). They look like sorta like that monkey guy from the Lion King. They get +2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Str, low light vision, a climb speed, and +2 to Hide & Move Silently.

In their entry it says they are not found in the main campaign setting of the book (Rokugan), so I suppose it would be possible to move them to a different campaign without too much difficulty.

Check with your DM for sure though, as they seemed overpowered to me.

Lord Tataraus
2007-09-20, 08:39 AM
I was just perusing through my oriental handbook (3.0) and they have a race in there called Vanar (I think). They look like sorta like that monkey guy from the Lion King. They get +2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Str, low light vision, a climb speed, and +2 to Hide & Move Silently.

In their entry it says they are not found in the main campaign setting of the book (Rokugan), so I suppose it would be possible to move them to a different campaign without too much difficulty.

Check with your DM for sure though, as they seemed overpowered to me.

Wow, I checked the 3.5 updated Vanara and it does not seem to be any different. Definitely overpowered. Basically the same as stated above except +2 jump and blance, normal speed for a medium creature with a 20ft climb speed thats just too much. The only other race with LA+0 and a climb speed I know of is the Jungle Goblin and they get +2 Dex, -2 Str, -2 Cha while the rest is basically the same as the Vanara.

(I still support the Khepri, they're just so cool)

Karsh
2007-09-20, 08:59 AM
The hands-down best 0 LA race for WIS is the Anthropomorphic Toad which gives you total stat mods of: -4 STR, -2 DEX, +6 WIS, -2 CHA. And it's a 1 racial HD race, so you start taking class levels right away. The only drawback is that 5 feet movement speed, but take cross-class ranks in Ride and get an exotic saddle to ride the party fighter/barbarian.

Machete
2007-09-20, 09:59 AM
Or take the trait that gives you +10 speed and a level dip in barbarian for a speed of 25. Sure you lose a Pally level and 20 hit points over your career, but a 5 move is embarrassing.

AKA_Bait
2007-09-20, 10:06 AM
Wow, I checked the 3.5 updated Vanara and it does not seem to be any different. Definitely overpowered. Basically the same as stated above except +2 jump and blance, normal speed for a medium creature with a 20ft climb speed thats just too much. The only other race with LA+0 and a climb speed I know of is the Jungle Goblin and they get +2 Dex, -2 Str, -2 Cha while the rest is basically the same as the Vanara.

(I still support the Khepri, they're just so cool)

I'm pretty sure the Vanara got nerfed someplace... can't remember where right now.

GimliFett
2007-09-20, 10:58 AM
I'm pretty sure the Vanara got nerfed someplace... can't remember where right now.

Dragon Mag #318. They get no stat mods, now.

SpikeFightwicky
2007-09-20, 11:39 AM
Looks like there are two choices:

Buomman: +2 Wis, -2 Cha (Planar Handbook)
Lesser Aasimar: +2 Wis, +2 Cha (Player's Guide to Faerun, I think the same as the MM entry but type is humanoid instead of outsider)

Wait a minute... So for +0 LA, you get:
+2 Wis, +2 Cha
+2 Spot, Listen
Daylight 1/day SLA
Resistance 5 to cold, acid and electricity
Celestial as an Auto language
No fear of Banish, Protection from Good, or similar spells like the garden variety Aasimar?

Sign me up!

Douglas
2007-09-20, 11:45 AM
No fear of Banish, Protection from Good, or similar spells like the garden variety Aasimar?
No, you keep that part. The Lesser Aasimar is Humanoid (Planetouched), not just plain Humanoid, and the Planetouched subtype confers vulnerability to all those outsider-specific spells.

Zherog
2007-09-20, 11:48 AM
The hands-down best 0 LA race for WIS is the Anthropomorphic Toad which gives you total stat mods of: -4 STR, -2 DEX, +6 WIS, -2 CHA. And it's a 1 racial HD race, so you start taking class levels right away. The only drawback is that 5 feet movement speed, but take cross-class ranks in Ride and get an exotic saddle to ride the party fighter/barbarian.

Anthropomorphic bat, I believe, is also +0 LA with a bonus to Wisdom.

Lord Tataraus
2007-09-20, 11:51 AM
Dragon Mag #318. They get no stat mods, now.

That seems better, I guess my 3.5 version isn't the complete Dragon update...

(Khepri are cool)

blue_fenix
2007-09-20, 11:54 AM
Buomman: +2 Wis, -2 Cha (Planar Handbook)

Buomman are a very interesting race that makes for great monks. Their biggest downside is the fact that they only speak Buomman, a song-like language that few, if any, other creatures speak.

Seatbelt
2007-09-20, 12:00 PM
The hands-down best 0 LA race for WIS is the Anthropomorphic Toad which gives you total stat mods of: -4 STR, -2 DEX, +6 WIS, -2 CHA. And it's a 1 racial HD race, so you start taking class levels right away. The only drawback is that 5 feet movement speed, but take cross-class ranks in Ride and get an exotic saddle to ride the party fighter/barbarian.

I thin you just won D&D

Curmudgeon
2007-09-20, 08:42 PM
Slyth: +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Str (Underdark) I don't have Underdark here, but isn't the Slyth a LA +2 race?

Edea
2007-09-20, 08:58 PM
Quick question. Are there any creatures with a +2 wisdom modifier with no level adjustment?

My friend is playing a cleric in a level one campaign and wishes to know.:smallbiggrin:

Short answer: Lesser Aasimar.

Alternative: If he's amenable to playing a Druid instead, the anthropomorphic animal series gain hellish Wis mods; in reality these are countered by equally hellish physical penalties, but wild shape would negate most of them.

Kaelik
2007-09-20, 09:03 PM
I thin you just won D&D

Except that anthro Bat has pretty much the same stats, but gets a 30ft fly speed too.

Jacob Orlove
2007-09-20, 09:04 PM
Anthropomorphic bat, I believe, is also +0 LA with a bonus to Wisdom.
The same +6 bonus to Wisdom, in fact. And a fly speed.

SensFan
2007-09-20, 09:14 PM
What book/source are those anthropomorphic animals in?

TroyXavier
2007-09-20, 09:41 PM
Savage Species. Just choose your cheese really.
(Honestly, the only one I'd allow is the Buomman)

Edea
2007-09-20, 09:57 PM
I'd allow pretty much any of the anthropomorphs as well as the Lesser Aasimar, but I wouldn't let you play a Jermlaine, screw that :/. Ugly little bastards.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-20, 11:00 PM
"Lesser Aasimar" are broken even by WotC's own rules. Make sure the second level the character acquires is in the "Racial Class". Basically, when the party hits second level, the character gets the remaining powers of the Aasimar(from the MM entry), and nothing else. Only when they hit level 3 does the character get to pick a second class level.

Karsh
2007-09-20, 11:05 PM
...that's true... the Anthropomorphic Bat gets a fly speed and less negatives to stats. The fly speed is actually 20 ft. (Average), but still. ...why would we want to be a toad again?

Darrin
2007-09-21, 09:42 AM
"Lesser Aasimar" are broken even by WotC's own rules. Make sure the second level the character acquires is in the "Racial Class". Basically, when the party hits second level, the character gets the remaining powers of the Aasimar(from the MM entry), and nothing else. Only when they hit level 3 does the character get to pick a second class level.

If you're using Racial Classes as an Aasimar, you can't be a Lesser Aasimar. A full-blooded non-lesser Aasimar can start as LA +0 and then take a Racial Class level to offset the LA +1 whenever convenient, or just not take it (this is how you get to Alter Self cheese without LA or feats). The WotC page for Level-Adjusted Races:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a

BCOVertigo
2007-09-21, 10:07 AM
Also in DR352 there is the Bas-lag race Khepri: +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Con, -2 Cha
Favored class cleric as well. Of course they can't speak any language but their own, but they cast spells with a language no one else can hear, so insanely high spellcraft checks to figure out what they are saying (they are bug people so its just a series of clicks and released chemicals).

#@$%@^&%%[email protected]#$%?????

Dragon magazine had an issue on China Mieville's setting??

*leaves the thread to go steal candy off the internet*

Zherog
2007-09-21, 10:11 AM
#@$%@^&%%[email protected]#$%?????

Dragon magazine had an issue on China Mieville's setting??

Yep. It was written by Wolfgang Baur.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-21, 10:18 AM
If you're using Racial Classes as an Aasimar, you can't be a Lesser Aasimar. A full-blooded non-lesser Aasimar can start as LA +0 and then take a Racial Class level to offset the LA +1 whenever convenient, or just not take it (this is how you get to Alter Self cheese without LA or feats). The WotC page for Level-Adjusted Races:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a

The way I see it, all you do, is give them the Lesser Aasimar, with 1 Class Level, then when they get the XP for Level 2, they get whatever else the MM Aasimar gets that they don't already have, and now require XP for Level 3 before the next Class Level. It's simple, it follows the "Racial Class" system somewhat, and the net result is still the same. You get to play an Aasimar at Level 1, you skip the second Class Level till ECL 3. If the term "Lesser Aasimar" is what's upsetting you, just change it to "Half-Aasimar" or whatever.

Lord Tataraus
2007-09-21, 11:33 AM
#@$%@^&%%[email protected]#$%?????

Dragon magazine had an issue on China Mieville's setting??

*leaves the thread to go steal candy off the internet*

By far my favorite issue, I highly suggest it. It made me buy Perdido Street Station, The Scar, and Iron Council just because the setting and creatures were so cool. I am modeling a city in one of my homebrew worlds after Armada.

Darrin
2007-09-21, 12:08 PM
The way I see it, all you do, is give them the Lesser Aasimar, with 1 Class Level, then when they get the XP for Level 2, they get whatever else the MM Aasimar gets that they don't already have, and now require XP for Level 3 before the next Class Level.


The Fluff doesn't match up then. Lesser Aasimar are Planetouched that have settled on Faerun long enough to lose their outsider status and now consider Faerun to be their home plane, now you're allowing them to switch their home-plane by letting them level up in a racial class?

Mechanics-wise, there are differences between a Lesser Aasimar and a Racial-Adjusted Aasimar. The Lesser Aasimar gets the +2 Wis right off the bat, the Racial-Adjusted Aasimar gets it when he levels up in his racial class.

I don't think it's too much to ask a player to decide one way or the other at chargen and then stick to it, although as a GM I'd be fairly accomodating if they wanted to change their mind later.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-21, 12:36 PM
The main problem being that Lesser Aasimar breaks the rules that Wizards set for themselves, namely, that you cannot have a net ability bonus and not get a level adjustment.

Thinker
2007-09-21, 12:38 PM
The main problem being that Lesser Aasimar breaks the rules that Wizards set for themselves, namely, that you cannot have a net ability bonus and not get a level adjustment.

Where did they set forth these guidelines?

TO_Incognito
2007-09-21, 07:22 PM
Where did they set forth these guidelines?

I believe there really is a citation from a Wizards book attesting to that rule, but it doesn't make the rule any less moronic.

Seriously, if every DM house rules that a character can't heal himself by drowning, then every DM ought to house rule that a race with +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Str, a 15 ft. land speed, and a -2 penalty to sixteen different skills doesn't have a +1 level adjustment.

Taffimai
2007-09-22, 04:30 AM
"Kingdoms of Kalamar" has two races with a +2 wisdom modifier:

Forest Gnome: +2 Wis, +2 Cha, -2 Str (Favoured class: rogue)

Golden Halfling: +2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Str (Favoured class: psion)

They have a list of other racial traits similar to regular gnomes and halflings as well, if you want to play one and can't find the book, I'll sum them up for you.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-22, 10:37 AM
I believe there really is a citation from a Wizards book attesting to that rule, but it doesn't make the rule any less moronic.

Seriously, if every DM house rules that a character can't heal himself by drowning, then every DM ought to house rule that a race with +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Str, a 15 ft. land speed, and a -2 penalty to sixteen different skills doesn't have a +1 level adjustment.

If http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hobgoblin.htm deserves a Level Adjustment, there is no chance in Baator that the Lesser Aasimar doesn't. All in, I'd rather use the "negative levels to buy off" option.