Tieflings..

[Tyger]

A penalty to CHA and a bonus to Bluff??? WTF?

Would it be unbalancing to change that to +2 INT, +2 CHA, -2 CON?

I realize that this makes the race a really great (perhaps too great) choice for rogues and sorcerers, but the LA does account for some of that.

[Tweekinator]

A penalty to CHA and a bonus to Bluff??? WTF?

Would it be unbalancing to change that to +2 INT, +2 CHA, -2 CON?

I realize that this makes the race a really great (perhaps too great) choice for rogues and sorcerers, but the LA does account for some of that.

Probably to reflect that they are good at bluffing, yet people are generally creeped out by them. Horns and all. "You're different! Yet remarkably right about so many things."

[Tyger]

The problem there is that many tielfings are indistinguishable from humans. So you have no way of knowing, physically, that the dude standing in front of you is descended from dark demonic spawn... or a unltra sexy succubus. :)

I could see it if they said that all tiefling show some sign of their demonic ancestry. People would be concerned about that! :) But when its not evident, the CHA penalty makes no sense.

[Tweekinator]

The problem there is that many tielfings are indistinguishable from humans. So you have no way of knowing, physically, that the dude standing in front of you is descended from dark demonic spawn... or a unltra sexy succubus. :)

I could see it if they said that all tiefling show some sign of their demonic ancestry. People would be concerned about that! :) But when its not evident, the CHA penalty makes no sense.

Ok, a sense of evil, otherworldly creepiness.

[Darrin]

A penalty to CHA and a bonus to Bluff??? WTF?


Add the Magic-Blooded template from Dragon #306 (LA +0) for +2 Cha and -2 Wis. This switches the stat modifiers to: +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Wis.

[Tyger]

Ok, a sense of evil, otherworldly creepiness.

Except that

From the SRD
Many tieflings are indistinguishable from humans.

No otherworldly creepiness. Indistinguisable.

adjective: identical: exactly alike; incapable of being perceived as different

[Swooper]

Well, I suppose those "some tieflings" are the high-cha-despite-the-penalty ones. The lower Cha ones sport horns, cloven feet, pointed teeth or something like that.

However, I still found the Cha penalty they get quite odd. Without it, tieflings would make very cool sorcerers and warlocks, which makes perfect sense fluff wise, but with the penalty almost no-one would play a tiefling warlock. Which feels wrong. I'm all for making a variant tiefling without the cha penalty. Perhaps a wisdom penalty would be better, or something. But then, they would be bad Clerics of Dark Gods. Bah.

[Tweekinator]

From the Planar Handbook, pg 15: "Tieflings look human(and are roughly the same height and weight as members of that race), except for one or two distinguishing features related to their unusual ancestry."

I can go on and quote you some of the specific examples they give of distinguishing features, but I'll hold for now.

It also says they carry the taint of evil in their forms, or perhaps their souls. Seems like it might give off the creepy vibe, no?

Oh, and thank you for pointing out the definition of indistinguishable for me, I was apparently lost in my own ignorance without it.

[arkol]

check this out Tyger:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31003

[Tyger]

Tweek, I was just going with the 3.5 version, as presented in the MM. I am not familiar with the Planar Handbook. Is that one 3.5 or 3.0? If 3.5, I'd need to take a look at it. If not, its not relevant for our party, as we stick to only official 3.5 books.

Sorry for the posting of the definition. It wasn't intended as a slight at all, and I am sorry that you interpreted it that way. But I can't be sure what your grasp of the subtlties of English is, as for all I know, English is not your first (or even second) language. Many is the time that a simple definition has cleared up points when its an interpretation issue and there are language barriers.

[Attilargh]

This being looks like a human, but it has a faintly disturbing demeanor about it and a wicked gleam in its eyes. Short horns sprout from its forehead.

Aside from a demeanor that many find disturbing, many tieflings are indistinguishable from humans. Others have small horns, pointed teeth, red eyes, a whiff of brimstone about them, or even cloven feet.
I think it's the spooky Wizards who have a problem with the definition of "indistinguishable".

[Solo]

Well, I suppose those "some tieflings" are the high-cha-despite-the-penalty ones. The lower Cha ones sport horns, cloven feet, pointed teeth or something like that.

However, I still found the Cha penalty they get quite odd. Without it, tieflings would make very cool sorcerers and warlocks, which makes perfect sense fluff wise, but with the penalty almost no-one would play a tiefling warlock. Which feels wrong. I'm all for making a variant tiefling without the cha penalty. Perhaps a wisdom penalty would be better, or something. But then, they would be bad Clerics of Dark Gods. Bah.

Actually, a warlock doesn't suffer much from a -2 pentaly to Cha, unless you're going for a save based warlock

[kamikasei]

I think it's the spooky Wizards who have a problem with the definition of "indistinguishable".

Well, if they say "aside from X, they are indistinguishable" they've covered themselves. Tieflings might be indistinguishable from human aside from the trait that makes them disturbing and penalizes their CHA.

[Tweekinator]

Tweek, I was just going with the 3.5 version, as presented in the MM. I am not familiar with the Planar Handbook. Is that one 3.5 or 3.0? If 3.5, I'd need to take a look at it. If not, its not relevant for our party, as we stick to only official 3.5 books.

Sorry for the posting of the definition. It wasn't intended as a slight at all, and I am sorry that you interpreted it that way. But I can't be sure what your grasp of the subtlties of English is, as for all I know, English is not your first (or even second) language. Many is the time that a simple definition has cleared up points when its an interpretation issue and there are language barriers.

The Planar Handbook is indeed 3.5 and my first language is indeed English.

[Kaelaroth]

I think I've seen a variant which gets bonuses to intelligence and charisma, but is sunlight vulnerable...

[puppyavenger]

If it's the otherworldly creepiness then why do balors have cha in the 50's and halffiends get a bonus?

Also mind flayers get a plus 6 to cha.

[Tor the Fallen]

If it's the otherworldly creepiness then why do balors have cha in the 50's and halffiends get a bonus?

Also mind flayers get a plus 6 to cha.

They're so creepy that you are compelled to bow low?

Dinging charisma for cosmetic reasons never made since to me, and I wouldn't mind beating the fools who put that crap in the MM.

[arkol]

charisma = willpower (in addition to lots of other stuff...).

[Tor the Fallen]

charisma = willpower (in addition to lots of other stuff...).

Not in the case of Tieflings.

[tannish2]

Well, I suppose those "some tieflings" are the high-cha-despite-the-penalty ones. The lower Cha ones sport horns, cloven feet, pointed teeth or something like that.

However, I still found the Cha penalty they get quite odd. Without it, tieflings would make very cool sorcerers and warlocks, which makes perfect sense fluff wise, but with the penalty almost no-one would play a tiefling warlock. Which feels wrong. I'm all for making a variant tiefling without the cha penalty. Perhaps a wisdom penalty would be better, or something. But then, they would be bad Clerics of Dark Gods. Bah.

ya then theres the fluff on warlocks and sorcerers (BOTH cha based casters, wtf) there are even the feindish heritage feats.... should get a CHA bonus, decrease INT or something

[Larrin]

I've always favored switching the CHA penalty to WIS (i've easily talked a DM into allowing, and made the mod on NWN2), since i see tieflings as having a good potential for being very charismatic, in that silver toungued deciever or oily car salesman way, but are likely a little reckless and not to good at making wise descisions...I think in the future tieflings will get better treatment CHA-wise.

[Fax Celestis]

Not in the case of Tieflings.

Not in the case of anything. Willpower is Wisdom based (for some godawful reason).


Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.

Willpower is not involved at all, mostly since...


Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings.

[arkol]

I hate to repeat myself but you should all take a look at this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31003

Not only it fixes the cha problem of tieflings we're all taking about, it fixes the poor bonus they have for a +1LA race.

[0oo0]

"You're different! Yet remarkably right about so many things."

I love this quote, just think of someone saying this to a demonspawn, it's great.

[EvilJames]

charisma = willpower (in addition to lots of other stuff...).

I was always under the impression that Wisdom = willpower


I've always favored switching the CHA penalty to WIS (i've easily talked a DM into allowing, and made the mod on NWN2), since i see tieflings as having a good potential for being very charismatic, in that silver toungued deciever or oily car salesman way, but are likely a little reckless and not to good at making wise descisions...I think in the future tieflings will get better treatment CHA-wise.

I believe they had a wisdom penalty in 2nd ed but they also had a charisma i think for their tendency to very very blunt.

[skywalker]

I always saw Teiflings as scrawny, schemeing lurks. Kinda opposite to the image of the big, likeable, but probably kinda stupid for his position aasimar. The aasimar is the innocent home-grown captain of the football team, the tiefling is the creepy nerd in glasses downloading porn in the computer lab while nobody's looking.

I'm not saying that's fair to any of the groups mentioned above, I'm not saying those aren't stereotypes, but Wizards plays off of stereotypes, and the fact that we all have *some* belief in them.

[Sornjss Lichdom]

easy fix.in fact it has probably alrdy been said. House rule +2 cha and -2 Int, now your likeable but dont think things through.

[SpikeFightwicky]

I always saw Teiflings as scrawny, schemeing lurks. Kinda opposite to the image of the big, likeable, but probably kinda stupid for his position aasimar. The aasimar is the innocent home-grown captain of the football team, the tiefling is the creepy nerd in glasses downloading porn in the computer lab while nobody's looking.

I'm not saying that's fair to any of the groups mentioned above, I'm not saying those aren't stereotypes, but Wizards plays off of stereotypes, and the fact that we all have *some* belief in them.

With a +2 Wis and a +2 Cha, I find the Aasimar makes a better class president/friends with everyone guy (to use high school analogies). Captain of any team would be a bit more physically demanding, and Aasimars don't stand out in the physical department.

[arkol]

easy fix.in fact it has probably alrdy been said. House rule +2 cha and -2 Int, now your likeable but dont think things through.

Making an already weak race even worse.....

[kamikasei]

easy fix.in fact it has probably alrdy been said. House rule +2 cha and -2 Int, now your likeable but dont think things through.

While that change suits the fluff of tiefling sorcerers and/or warlocks, it doesn't much help tiefling rogues (their favored class), and doesn't fit well with the generally-cunning demons and devils who would sire them.

[Collin152]

Well, when you factor Walrocks in, Rogue really does not seem to make a good favored class for them.