Rebalancing save or nothing cantrips

[Tanarii]

As has come up in several threads recently, mathematically saving throws are -4 to hit relative to attack rolls.

1) http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?573334-Frostbite-vs-Toll-the-Dead
2) http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?573987-Help-me-houserule-NADs

This is somewhat balanced by the ability to select which save to target. And somewhat by damage spells typically doing 1/2 damage on damage.

But for cantrips, the latter isn't the case. And for most casters, with one primary attack Cantrip, the former also isn't the case. So realistically, they need about a 20% DPR boost to be on par with attack roll cantrips.

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Option 1:
Raise DC by some number. 4 would be the ideal number at low levels, but that would probably get out of hand rapidly at high levels. Although at those levels I'd imagine (not having run T4) it's mostly going to be non-full caster characters dipping or taking MI that use cantrips regularly. So it might work okay.

As a sanity check, at level 1 for most characters that'd be DC 16 instead of DC 12. While that's a 20% DPR increase, you can probably see at a glance where it looks ridiculously OP. :smallamused:

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Option 2: Up the die size by 20%. Or since that results in non-standard dice (d5, d7, etc), add +1 damage for d4 or d6, and +2 for d8, d10 or d12. Per die.

So Vicious Mockery would do d4+1 per Tier, Acid Splash 1d6+1 per target per tier, Poison Spray d12+2 per tier.

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Other options?

[Unoriginal]

Cantrips are already balanced as they are. Cantrips are *supposed* to be worse than a martial's Attack action, at equivalent level (aside from Eldritch Blast).


Giving casters more at-will damage is what would create an imbalance.

[Tanarii]

Cantrips are already balanced as they are. Cantrips are *supposed* to be worse than a martial's Attack action, at equivalent level (aside from Eldritch Blast).You missed the point.

Acid Spalsh and Poison spray are not *supposed* to be worse than Firebolt and Ray of Frost.

[Man_Over_Game]

There are a few other concerns. Attacks are inherently different than saving throw effects. Disadvantage to attack an enemy is pretty common (like with Phasebeasts), and you don't have to worry about cover.

[Naanomi]

You missed the point.

Acid Spalsh and Poison spray are not *supposed* to be worse than Firebolt and Ray of Frost.
Avoiding cover and disadvantage and the like pays off frequently in my experience

[Trustypeaches]

Like others have said, the fact that save cantrips avoid cover and disadvantage gives them plenty of utility.

I think if you want them to compete with attack roll cantrips, I'd simply improve the functionality of the spell's riders so that they're worth giving up the DPR.

[Tanarii]

There are a few other concerns. Attacks are inherently different than saving throw effects. Disadvantage to attack an enemy is pretty common (like with Phasebeasts), and you don't have to worry about cover.


Avoiding cover and disadvantage and the like pays off frequently in my experience
Attack rolls can get advantage though, so that's a wash.

Good point on the cover, at least for non-Dex spells, like Acid Splash. As a DM that knows it applies to firing through allies is cover I find it applies more often than not to casters, at least the arcane nuke kind. Still, that's typically only a 10% bonus in DPR, maybe 50-75% of the time.

[Man_Over_Game]

Attack rolls can get advantage though, so that's a wash.

Good point on the cover, at least for non-Dex spells, like Acid Splash. As a DM that knows it applies to firing through allies is cover I find it applies more often than not to casters, at least the arcane nuke kind. Still, that's typically only a 10% bonus in DPR, maybe 50-75% of the time.

Advantage on spells is pretty hard to come by, though. For things like a Rogue, Fighter, Barbarian, sure, Advantage might be something you hear often, but few people go to set up a situation where a Mage MIGHT cast a spell with Advantage.

[Tanarii]

Advantage on spells is pretty hard to come by, though. For things like a Rogue, Fighter, Barbarian, sure, Advantage might be something you hear often, but few people go to set up a situation where a Mage MIGHT cast a spell with Advantage.
All it takes it the opponent not seeing you. That's not exactly hard to come by.

Edit: that said, I was ignoring the most common reason for attack roll spells getting disadvantage: an enemy is adjacent to the caster (target or not).

Either way, I'm not sure that is worth a 20% DPR bonus.

[Trustypeaches]

Attack rolls can get advantage though, so that's a wash.Okay, and sometimes they can't. So not a wash.

The point being made is that there are times when Save Cantrips are better; they're a solid secondary attack for the occasional (and potentially common) situation where enemies are in cover, you have disadvantage, or when their AC is higher than a save might be.

[Tanarii]

Okay, and sometimes they can't. So not a wash.

The point being made is that there are times when Save Cantrips are better; they're a solid secondary attack for the occasional (and potentially common) situation where enemies are in cover, you have disadvantage, or when their AC is higher than a save might be.
You are taking into account that most players of casters, other than maybe sorcs, take only one attack Cantrip, right? They have to weigh those situational circumstances vs +20% DPR when they select their primary attack Cantrip in the first place.

[Trustypeaches]

You are taking into account that most players of casters, other than maybe sorcs, take only one attack Cantrip, right? They have to weigh those situational circumstances vs +20% DPR when they select their primary attack Cantrip in the first place.If players choose to use their cantrip slots for utility spells over alternative damage cantrips, then that's their choice to sacrifice at-will damage versatility in exchange for utility.

Casters also get more cantrip slots as they level up, giving them more room to take different damage cantrips.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Acid Spalsh and Poison spray are not *supposed* to be worse than Firebolt and Ray of Frost.

That might be true. But I really wonder if it is.

Since there are certain classes that don't get access to cantrips with a "to hit", I really do think that maybe that's fully intentional and done with the idea that their cantrips aren't going to hit as hard (Wis classes).

[Trustypeaches]

That might be true. But I really wonder if it is.

Since there are certain classes that don't get access to cantrips with a "to hit", I really do think that maybe that's fully intentional and done with the idea that their cantrips aren't going to hit as hard (Wis classes).Actually just Clerics and Bards.

Druids get Primal Savagery, Thorn Whip, Produce Flame, etc.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Actually just Clerics and Bards.

Druids get Primal Savagery, Thorn Whip, Produce Flame, etc.

Right you are.

What do you think? Intentional by design, or not?

[ad_hoc]

The best way to balance casters in general is to walk up to them and smack them.

Casters have limited cantrips. If they take a ranged attack cantrip then they get disadvantage if an enemy is next to them. If they take a melee attack cantrip they can't use it at range. A save cantrip can be used in either situation. If they have multiple attack cantrips they can pick the one they think will be most effective against the enemy's defenses.

They might be a bit underpowered but I don't think it is a straight up -4 when other factors are considered. Not a big enough difference to change it.

By 4th level # of cantrips:

6 - Tome Warlocks
5 - Sorcerers
4 - Clerics / Wizards / Land Druids
3 - Bards / Druids / Warlocks

I think everyone who will only use cantrips to attack should be taking 2. Some classes can afford to take 3 (or even 4).

Lore Bards have it the worst here but they don't get an attack cantrip anyway. Clerics also only get Sacred Flame or Toll the Dead but at least they now have a choice of save to target. Warlocks either get extra cantrips, a weapon, or a familiar that can attack.

I know someone made a chart when the MM was released showing AC and Saves progressions over CR. That should be looked at before changes are proposed.

An Orc has 13 AC and +0 Wisdom - +6 to attack vs DC 14 results in the attack hitting 70% and the save 65%.

...but an Orc Chief has 16 AC and +0 Wisdom so that save is looking much better.

[Pex]

You missed the point.

Acid Spalsh and Poison spray are not *supposed* to be worse than Firebolt and Ray of Frost.

Witch Bolt is not supposed to be worse than Magic Missile.

In the sense this is a problem for you just make all saving throw cantrips save for half and if they save they don't suffer the rider effect. Give Evokers something to compensate everyone getting their ribbon.

However you have a solution in search of a problem. Spellcasters are not suffering about this. If players are not choosing to know particular cantrips so be it. It's not for the DM to make them nor have them regret choosing what everyone else takes.