Shadow Sorcerer Combat Strategies

[Drad1713]

Hey all! I’m currently playing a lvl7 shadow sorcerer and am trying to be somewhat diverse in combat strategies. We’ve had combat against 8 semi weak monsters as well as combat against 4 mini raid bosses. I’m looking at 1) using Hound if I’ll Omen plus Maximillians Earthen Grasp to essentially isolate a raid boss/mini raid boss or 2) using Darkness w/ SP and casting scorching ray against multiple enemies with advantage.

Thoughts? Any other avenues I should look into? I know combat can have a wide variety of possibilities, I just don’t want to feel useless to my party.

[Man_Over_Game]

Hey all! I’m currently playing a lvl7 shadow sorcerer and am trying to be somewhat diverse in combat strategies. We’ve had combat against 8 semi weak monsters as well as combat against 4 mini raid bosses. I’m looking at 1) using Hound if I’ll Omen plus Maximillians Earthen Grasp to essentially isolate a raid boss/mini raid boss or 2) using Darkness w/ SP and casting scorching ray against multiple enemies with advantage.

Thoughts? Any other avenues I should look into? I know combat can have a wide variety of possibilities, I just don’t want to feel useless to my party.

A solid strategy that I like to use is creating the obscurity (in this case, Darkness) behind the enemy front line but in front of their back line.

This prevents their front from having any support, their ranged from being able to make any attacks, and if their ranged wants to get a few of your team, they have to move in front of the Darkness (effectively being in melee range).

This is best done in cramped situations, where enemies can't just sidestep the Darkness. Or try to use terrain to the best of your abilities.

[Crushgrip]

Hiya,

In our current game we also have a lvl 7 shadow Sorcerer and I am playing a Cleric 1/ Wizard 6, so the Sorc and I talk about spells quite a bit. First, I would recommend looking at the various Sorcerer Guides as they describe (and rate) the spells at various levels. Because of your Hound of Ill Omen, save or suck spells can really shine and you will have access to Banishment, Hypnotic Pattern, greater Invisibility and Polymorph. All are great and twinning Banishment can be very powerful. Hypnotic Pattern is also very powerful for Crowd Control and you can drop your Hound on the BBEG that you really want to fail the save! Polymorph has incredible versatility but is also dependent on your DM (can you Polymorph into a Giant Ape or T-Rex if you have never read about them or encountered them?) Also, do not overlook Haste and Counterspell/Dispel Magic.

Sorcerers can have utility but it is somewhat dependent on the party composition and possible encounters. The SP Darkness has a lot of utility and the one thing I would reccommend is your character cast it on an object that could then be dropped to the ground. That way the Darkness does not move with you and you can move to any spot in the area...Keeps enemies from "targeting the center of the black globe" and having a chance to hit you.

Hope that helps!

[Drad1713]

I’ll look more into some “save or suck” cc spells! Also I didn’t think darkness would move unless you cast it on an object that could be held? Meaning I could cast it at my location but still move the the back of the sphere for more safety from AoE. Is this not correct?
I forgot to mention I’m try to get the Elven Accuracy racial feat so I can get all the chances to crit with my scorching ray.

[Trustypeaches]

As a Shadow Sorcerer you really shine with Save-based spells, as your doggo causes disadvantage on saves.

Some good spells to pair with this (depending on the number of enemies / situation etc) include:
- Watery Sphere
- Phantasmal Force
- Sickening Radiance
- Maximilian's Earthen Grasp
- Blindness Deafness

Banishment is nice but your doggo would only grant it disadvantage on the first save, not any subsequent ones.

Darkness mostly benefits from anything with an attack roll, which is basically just your cantrips, scorching ray and.... that's it. Honestly it's more of use to Warlocks than Sorcerers since they rely a lot more heavily on attack rolls with Eldritch Blast.

[Man_Over_Game]

Consider grabbing a single level into Hexblade Warlock.

Elven Accuracy, with a 19-20 crit range results in a 27% chance to crit with each hit. Then use Eldritch Blast for multiple hits without having to rely on Scorching Ray, and you'll see why I recommended Hexblade.

[Crushgrip]

I’ll look more into some “save or suck” cc spells! Also I didn’t think darkness would move unless you cast it on an object that could be held? Meaning I could cast it at my location but still move the the back of the sphere for more safety from AoE. Is this not correct?
I forgot to mention I’m try to get the Elven Accuracy racial feat so I can get all the chances to crit with my scorching ray.

You are correct, but then the Darkness can never move. The suggestion was merely to allow for your character to get the "most" utility out of spending those precious sorcery points as it is a Concentration for up to 10 minutes and the battle field can change quite a bit. For example, you could cast the darkness on a stone on the ground and cast from within said darkness. But after time you see that a Darkness would be better served 20 feet away in the enemy group, so you grab the stone and toss it where you would like. Just something to keep in mind!

[Drad1713]

Consider grabbing a single level into Hexblade Warlock.

Elven Accuracy, with a 19-20 crit range results in a 27% chance to crit with each hit. Then use Eldritch Blast for multiple hits without having to rely on Scorching Ray, and you'll see why I recommended Hexblade.

If I were to cast this from darkness would I get to roll each attack roll three times? (adv from darkness and the reroll from elven accuracy)

[Man_Over_Game]

If I were to cast this from darkness would I get to roll each attack roll three times? (adv from darkness and the reroll from elven accuracy)

That's correct. There are many builds that rely on this, utilizing Devil's Sight (a Warlock invocation) and Darkness (available to Warlocks at level 3) combined with Elven Accuracy. Paladins often go for it, since the 27% crit chance per hit does well with their smite effects.

[Drad1713]

You are correct, but then the Darkness can never move. The suggestion was merely to allow for your character to get the "most" utility out of spending those precious sorcery points as it is a Concentration for up to 10 minutes and the battle field can change quite a bit. For example, you could cast the darkness on a stone on the ground and cast from within said darkness. But after time you see that a Darkness would be better served 20 feet away in the enemy group, so you grab the stone and toss it where you would like. Just something to keep in mind!

That’s a great idea, I can definitely see myself doing this in the future!

[Crushgrip]

Banishment is nice but your doggo would only grant it disadvantage on the first save, not any subsequent ones.

Not necessarily true. In Xanthar's Guide it states, "while the hound is within 5 feet of the target, the target has disadvantage on saving throws againt spells you cast. The hound disappears if it is reduced to 0 hit points, if its target is reduced to 0 hit points, or after 5 minutes." Banishment simply sends the target to a harmless demiplane for up to one minute. As long as your hound is still alive and within 5 feet of the target when it come back from the Banishment, then the target would still have disadvantage to all spells cast by the sorcerer until one of the above conditions is met.

[Drad1713]

Would something like Hold Monster/Person be a better option over MEG?

[Man_Over_Game]

Not necessarily true. In Xanthar's Guide it states, "while the hound is within 5 feet of the target, the target has disadvantage on saving throws againt spells you cast. The hound disappears if it is reduced to 0 hit points, if its target is reduced to 0 hit points, or after 5 minutes." Banishment simply sends the target to a harmless demiplane for up to one minute. As long as your hound is still alive and within 5 feet of the target when it come back from the Banishment, then the target would still have disadvantage to all spells cast by the sorcerer until one of the above conditions is met.

Off topic, but very interesting point. The Hound always knows exactly where the person is, and always takes the most direct route to the person. So...it'd just spin in circles? Would it move towards the closest portal to the same plane as the target? Would it just whimper and cry over the fact that he can't play with his new friend?

All very puzzling questions.

[Trustypeaches]

Not necessarily true. In Xanthar's Guide it states, "while the hound is within 5 feet of the target, the target has disadvantage on saving throws againt spells you cast. The hound disappears if it is reduced to 0 hit points, if its target is reduced to 0 hit points, or after 5 minutes." Banishment simply sends the target to a harmless demiplane for up to one minute. As long as your hound is still alive and within 5 feet of the target when it come back from the Banishment, then the target would still have disadvantage to all spells cast by the sorcerer until one of the above conditions is met.I'm pretty sure, like most things, the Doggo's effect would require the target to be on the same plane of existence.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm pretty sure, like most things, the Doggo's effect would require the target to be on the same plane of existence.

It doesn't say that, though. I mean, a DM could easily houserule that, but I might not unless I saw it being abused. I'd probably have the hound do random actions while the target was off in another plane, like trying to jump or dig into the dirt, chase its tail, stuff like that while dark doggo can't actually follow his target.

[Crushgrip]

I'm pretty sure, like most things, the Doggo's effect would require the target to be on the same plane of existence.

I totally agree. When the 1 minute is up or the sorcerer has decided to stop concentrating on the Banishment spell, our BBEG now comes back from the demi-plane to appear in the same space as before (and back on the assumed-to-be material plane) possibly still right next to the Hound. If, per initiative order, our sorcerer gets to act before the BBEG then it would have to make any saves at disadvantage vs. our sorcerers spells.

Hope that makes sense?

Edit: After re-reading I think I see what you are saying Trustypeaches. Essentially that when the target disappears to another plane (demi-plane) that the hound also ceases to exist? As I read the RAW, that would not be a termination condition but it's your game and do what ya want. As Man_Over_Game has stated, and as I would rule, the Hound still stays until one of the three termination conditions is met.

Baaaack on topic:

I would be careful with Hold Person/Monster. I am sure you will get a lot of pro/con suggestions and I would say it is up to you! I have had horrible results with hold person but I have also DM'ed where the Hold Person on my BBEG just destroyed him in the first round. The paralyzed condition is crazy good but hard to make "stick" with the save every round. Your Hound can be a good use for this too.

[Drad1713]

On the topic of the hound: I know when he’s summoned you roll for initiative for him. When does he take his first turn? The next round of combat in order of initiative? This round in order if his initiative hasn’t already been passed? Immediately after summoning if his initiative roll already past presummon?
I haven’t been able to find anything stating one way or another.

[Nhorianscum]

Depends entirely on your metamagic and 4th level spell (s)

Only real constant here is remembering that your hound can trip (with pack tactics!) and forced disadvantage on a dc13 save (effective dc18). With no concentration. Dump earthen grasp.

The biggest concern is how to ration your spells and metamagic for the adventuring day. With 7 sorcery points and 17 SP worth of "not instantly winning a fight" slots to burn you have gas in the tank for days. For example.

At this point you can drop A) 3 3rd and 3 4th level spells over 6 encounters with 5 spell levels or 5 sorcery points left over. B) Hound of ill omen, twin a 3rd level spell, or superdarkness 5 times, with 2 spell levels or sorcery points, 3 3rd level spells, and your 4th level spell still open. C) synthesize a pair of 5th level slots with 2 sorcery points, 3 3rds, and a 4th open. Or D) Quicken 8 times with 3 3rds, 1 4th, and 1 sorc or level one open. (Quickening is suuuuuper expensive and super not worth it unless something just needs to die NOW).

Again, gas for days, don't play wizard, play sorc, feel free to punch well above your weight class. Try not to waste your time or concentration on anything not twinned, doggo'd or upcast, any spell you fire off should dramaticly swing the fight in your partys favor. Expect to burn 4-7 of your total 30 points/levels every significant fight (hard or deadly), really open up in a 2-3x deadly situation, and don't waste gas on medium or lower.

As for spells (no idea what you've got) Depends on metamagic. Default to "win this fight now" options for concentration and higher slots and use lower slots for personal defense and a splash of utility. Take one good aoe damage spell and just quicken cantrips for single damage as needed.

Suggestion + doggo is good times.

Edit: On the more of multiclassing I'd suggest holding off on that entirely till at least level 11. You're riding the gravy train at +5 fuel at xl8 and a whopping +10 gas at 9. 3rd metamagic and +6 fuel at 10, and mass suggestion just waiting at 11. For level 12 a one level dip is perfectly appropriate (If you have the wis for it I suggest 1 level in knowledge cleric for expertise in religion, arcana, and hopefully prof in whatever 3rd critter stat reader skill your DM uses for BUFF subtle counterspells and near omniscience in terms of knowing which save to hit on control spells. Along with armor/shield/1st level suite of goody spells, warcaster at 12 and full steam ahead to wish!)

[Man_Over_Game]

On the topic of the hound: I know when he’s summoned you roll for initiative for him. When does he take his first turn? The next round of combat in order of initiative? This round in order if his initiative hasn’t already been passed? Immediately after summoning if his initiative roll already past presummon?
I haven’t been able to find anything stating one way or another.

It's the same for how all creatures work. Their initiative roll takes place based on the current initiative status.

So if your Initiative is 10, and Doggo's is 15, he's going right after you. If Doggo's is instead 8, then he's not getting a turn until next round.

[Crushgrip]

On the topic of the hound: I know when he’s summoned you roll for initiative for him. When does he take his first turn? The next round of combat in order of initiative? This round in order if his initiative hasn’t already been passed? Immediately after summoning if his initiative roll already past presummon?
I haven’t been able to find anything stating one way or another.

Depends on what is rolled for initiative and where you are in it. "The hound appears in an unoccupied space of your choice within 30 feet of the target." Remember that the Hound is essentially a continuous and moving heightened meta-magic. Let's say you are on initiative of 15 and the BBEG is on 10. As a bonus action you summon your hound right behind the BBEG. While doing so you roll an initiative for the hound of 20. Now you cast Banishment and the BBEG must make a save at disadvantage. BBEG fail the save and is Banished. The hound would then "go" on initiative count of 20 on the next round and possibly start digging a hole as the BBEG is on the demi-plane. This would repeat until one of the termination conditions for the hound is met.

Had the hound rolled a lower initiative, then it would have been able to act on the same round.

[Keravath]

A solid strategy that I like to use is creating the obscurity (in this case, Darkness) behind the enemy front line but in front of their back line.

This prevents their front from having any support, their ranged from being able to make any attacks, and if their ranged wants to get a few of your team, they have to move in front of the Darkness (effectively being in melee range).

This is best done in cramped situations, where enemies can't just sidestep the Darkness. Or try to use terrain to the best of your abilities.

The interesting thing is that RAW this doesn’t work.

You are allowed to target creatures you can’t see. If you can’t see them you have disadvantage. If they can’t see you then you have advantage. If you drop darkness behind their front line then their back line can still shoot at you with a straight roll since advantage and disadvantage cancel.

In addition, let’s say your archers are firing at some enemies 200’ away. By RAW you could drop darkness on your archers and instead of rolling with disadvantage due to range they have a straight roll to hit since multiple occurrences of advantage/disadvantage don’t stack.

Does it make a lot of sense? Not really in my opinion but that appears to be how the vision rules are written.

P.S. I’ve found many AL DMs will run it this way due to RAW

[Keravath]

There are a number of classic Sorcerer strategies that can work well.

Twinned haste, suggestion, banishment.

Quickened attack cantrips can be useful (might work best for sorlocks but I don’t think it should be overlooked for sorcerers)

Hypnotic pattern can be an amazing spell.

Various subtle spells like suggestion, enemies abound can totally change social situations. Also, subtle spells can’t be counterspelled.

Darkness can often be used to give you advantage on all your attack rolls (if you cast it with sorcery points)

Use the hound when you want the bad guy to fail .. polymorph him into a frog and drop him in your pocket .. banishment .. maybe hold person or dominate.

The earthen grasp spell probably isn’t worth a sorcerer spell slot .. you have too few as it is ..

[Trustypeaches]

It doesn't say that, though. I mean, a DM could easily houserule that, but I might not unless I saw it being abused. I'd probably have the hound do random actions while the target was off in another plane, like trying to jump or dig into the dirt, chase its tail, stuff like that while dark doggo can't actually follow his target.Yeah the dog would still be there. It doesn't despawn until either it's been killed, it's target has been killed, or 5 minutes have passed. But it won't impose disadvantage on the target's save while they are not on the same plane.

And honestly, if they specified "while on the same plane" for every single situation where it might be applicable, it'd take up half the PHB.

[RickAsWritten]

The interesting thing is that RAW this doesn’t work.

You are allowed to target creatures you can’t see. If you can’t see them you have disadvantage. If they can’t see you then you have advantage. If you drop darkness behind their front line then their back line can still shoot at you with a straight roll since advantage and disadvantage cancel.

In addition, let’s say your archers are firing at some enemies 200’ away. By RAW you could drop darkness on your archers and instead of rolling with disadvantage due to range they have a straight roll to hit since multiple occurrences of advantage/disadvantage don’t stack.

Does it make a lot of sense? Not really in my opinion but that appears to be how the vision rules are written.

P.S. I’ve found many AL DMs will run it this way due to RAW

I think the assumption was that the Darkness was summoned via Eyes of the Dark(or Devil's Sight), and thus can be seen through.

[Trustypeaches]

The interesting thing is that RAW this doesn’t work.

You are allowed to target creatures you can’t see. If you can’t see them you have disadvantage. If they can’t see you then you have advantage. If you drop darkness behind their front line then their back line can still shoot at you with a straight roll since advantage and disadvantage cancel.

In addition, let’s say your archers are firing at some enemies 200’ away. By RAW you could drop darkness on your archers and instead of rolling with disadvantage due to range they have a straight roll to hit since multiple occurrences of advantage/disadvantage don’t stack.

Does it make a lot of sense? Not really in my opinion but that appears to be how the vision rules are written.

P.S. I’ve found many AL DMs will run it this way due to RAW
Fwiw here is another passage in the DMG in the same section on unseen attackers


When you attack a target that you can’t see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or you’re targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn’t in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the GM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target’s location correctly.
You can’t target an enemy you can’t see. Instead you a position where you think they are, and then have disadvantage on that attack roll (normal if it’s mutual blindness). But even if you roll a 20 you might still miss because you didn’t target where they actually were.

[Drad1713]

Depends entirely on your metamagic and 4th level spell (s)

Only real constant here is remembering that your hound can trip (with pack tactics!) and forced disadvantage on a dc13 save (effective dc18). With no concentration. Dump earthen grasp.

The biggest concern is how to ration your spells and metamagic for the adventuring day. With 7 sorcery points and 17 SP worth of "not instantly winning a fight" slots to burn you have gas in the tank for days. For example.

At this point you can drop A) 3 3rd and 3 4th level spells over 6 encounters with 5 spell levels or 5 sorcery points left over. B) Hound of ill omen, twin a 3rd level spell, or superdarkness 5 times, with 2 spell levels or sorcery points, 3 3rd level spells, and your 4th level spell still open. C) synthesize a pair of 5th level slots with 2 sorcery points, 3 3rds, and a 4th open. Or D) Quicken 8 times with 3 3rds, 1 4th, and 1 sorc or level one open. (Quickening is suuuuuper expensive and super not worth it unless something just needs to die NOW).

Again, gas for days, don't play wizard, play sorc, feel free to punch well above your weight class. Try not to waste your time or concentration on anything not twinned, doggo'd or upcast, any spell you fire off should dramaticly swing the fight in your partys favor. Expect to burn 4-7 of your total 30 points/levels every significant fight (hard or deadly), really open up in a 2-3x deadly situation, and don't waste gas on medium or lower.

As for spells (no idea what you've got) Depends on metamagic. Default to "win this fight now" options for concentration and higher slots and use lower slots for personal defense and a splash of utility. Take one good aoe damage spell and just quicken cantrips for single damage as needed.

Suggestion + doggo is good times.

Edit: On the more of multiclassing I'd suggest holding off on that entirely till at least level 11. You're riding the gravy train at +5 fuel at xl8 and a whopping +10 gas at 9. 3rd metamagic and +6 fuel at 10, and mass suggestion just waiting at 11. For level 12 a one level dip is perfectly appropriate (If you have the wis for it I suggest 1 level in knowledge cleric for expertise in religion, arcana, and hopefully prof in whatever 3rd critter stat reader skill your DM uses for BUFF subtle counterspells and near omniscience in terms of knowing which save to hit on control spells. Along with armor/shield/1st level suite of goody spells, warcaster at 12 and full steam ahead to wish!)

Let me preface this with it's my first time playing D&D so I understand I might have selected too many/few damaging spells but here’s what I’ve got.
Subtle & Quickened
0-Ray of Frost, Forebolt, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Message
1-Witch Bolt, Ice Knife, Shield
2- Maximillians Earthen Grasp, Scorching Ray
3- Fireball, Counterspell
4- Haven’t selected since we just hit 7

What’s your opinion moving forward and what are some things I could have done differently from the beginning?

[Snowbluff]

I think it's more about having a balance between concentration and non concentration spells.

I quite like Earthen Grasp and Web Early on. I've used both of these to great effect on my Shadow Sorcerer.

However, I think Witchbolt is a poor choice. It'll be doing less damage than a cantrip a lot of the time.

For cantrips I'm partial to Frostbite and Ray of Frost for the associated debuffs.

For 4th level I think I took Sickening Radiance and made my DM very mad when I bathed the boss room in radiation. The boss was trapped by my hound (I used Careful spell to keep it from dying immediately), and was taking radiant damage and exhaustion levels which are super harsh.

[Nhorianscum]

Let me preface this with it's my first time playing D&D so I understand I might have selected too many/few damaging spells but here’s what I’ve got.
Subtle & Quickened
0-Ray of Frost, Forebolt, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Message
1-Witch Bolt, Ice Knife, Shield
2- Maximillians Earthen Grasp, Scorching Ray
3- Fireball, Counterspell
4- Haven’t selected since we just hit 7

What’s your opinion moving forward and what are some things I could have done differently from the beginning?

So let's consider this basic quicken+subtle spell chassis at xl7 for a moment...

1st: Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage armor.
2nd: Darkness, misty step, suggestion/phantasmal image.
3rd: fireball/lightning bolt, counterspell
4th: Polymorph/watery sphere.

Poly/sphere/step eventually get upgraded or replaced. Hypnotic pattern and slow see use over the blast spell. I am a huge fan of blindness/deafness (no concentration and upcast). Mage armor eventually gets dropped.

In your build.

Moving forward you want to drop ice knife, witch bolt, grasp, and ray (Grasp and ray are good spells so no rush). So 2 spells per level for the next 4 levels. Take spells that suit your metamagic and origin. Minimize concentration use. In this case I would recommend dropping witch bolt immediately to take suggestion and either sphere or polymorph this level, and dropping ice knife for mage armor and your 5th at 9th level.

Other spells for consideration. Fly, dispel magic, levitate. Consider a mele useable cantrip (save or scag).
--------------------

Short term tactics. Darkness is area denial and your main control as this is a very blasty shadow sorc, really spam this to split up enemies and advantage upcast SRays. Hound + suggestion or grasp (or just another hound) is single target lock. Your 4th is the big gun. Sphere takes up to 4 enemies out of a fight while poly is. poly. Quickening with sphere or grasp up is a viable tactic as is calling hounds + quicken. Fireball to clean up trash (upcast as needed).

You're still in a part of the game where blasting is viable so this isn't a terrible situation. Enjoy extremely blast SRays and fireballs for now and phase into BC and social by 11. Keep some blast if you enjoy it.

I suggest treantmonk's God wizard guide for general BC tips.

[Dalebert]

Banishment is nice but your doggo would only grant it disadvantage on the first save, not any subsequent ones.

this statement is really baffling. What subsequent saves? If banishment ends for some reason, like because it got dispelled or you lost concentration, then the creature would come back and the hound would immediately be adjacent again, imposing disandvantage on any other spells you cast. And you can't cast anything on it while it's banished anyway so what subsequent saves are you referring to?


Consider grabbing a single level into Hexblade Warlock.

Elven Accuracy, with a 19-20 crit range results in a 27% chance to crit with each hit. Then use Eldritch Blast for multiple hits without having to rely on Scorching Ray, and you'll see why I recommended Hexblade.

My shadow sorc dipped two levels of hexblade. It's an awesome combo. And it doesn't hurt that I can wear armor and a shield and that I know the shield spell as well! I don't stress much about wading into combat and using Wrathful Smite which is an underrated smite spell.

Hold Person and Hold Monster are excellent options. The hound will keep attacking with adv and auto-critting. My shadow sorc lucked out and got a Wand of Binding.

Another strategy--on really tough opponents, particularly end-game boss fights, just keep summoning hounds every round for as long as you have sorcery points. Paralyze them and just pile up hounds until dead.