The Bard.

[Tawmis]

So I DM a group that has a Level 2 Wizard, Level 2 Ranger, Level 2 Barbarian, Level 2 Bard, Level 2 Cleric, and Level 1 Ranger/1 Rogue.

I feel like the Bard is feeling overshadowed.

She doesn't match the damage of the barbarian.
She can't match the Rogue's skills.
Her heals aren't as good as the Cleric.
And her damage spells don't compare to the Wizard.

What are some recommendations you'd offer for a bard to enhance their playability (it's not a word, but I am making it one!)

I always try to be mindful and creature adventures that put everyone to some use at some point. But I think the Bard isn't enjoying herself as the rest. (But she's entirely too sweet to say otherwise).

[Man_Over_Game]

So I DM a group that has a Level 2 Wizard, Level 2 Ranger, Level 2 Barbarian, Level 2 Bard, Level 2 Cleric, and Level 1 Ranger/1 Rogue.

I feel like the Bard is feeling overshadowed.

She doesn't match the damage of the barbarian.
She can't match the Rogue's skills.
Her heals aren't as good as the Cleric.
And her damage spells don't compare to the Wizard.

What are some recommendations you'd offer for a bard to enhance their playability (it's not a word, but I am making it one!)

I always try to be mindful and creature adventures that put everyone to some use at some point. But I think the Bard isn't enjoying herself as the rest. (But she's entirely too sweet to say otherwise).

Most casters don't really stand out until level 3.

I notice that you don't have a single other character in your team that uses Charisma as regularly as the Bard. Use that. Maybe they don't have to come up with giant monologues, but they should be helping in the decision making of the party. Maybe the Ranger is a more experienced and pronounced player, and makes a lot of the group decisions, but NPCs are still more drawn to the Bard for her comforting aura.

Wizards blow stuff up, Druids control the battlefield, Clerics heal, but nobody can manipulate people like a Bard. Utilize that. Sleep is my rated #1 spell until character level 3, when it just becomes "good". Disguise Self might be a bit too harsh, but Speak to Animals is something few people have available.

When she levels up, try to see what the group needs to help her stand out. Bards have the most diverse subclass list, ranging between melee combatants, ranged combatants, and several support options. If 4 of her teammates are going melee, a Swords Bard isn't going to add much. However, if only 2 of her teammates are going melee, a Valor Bard would fit perfectly to keep her back line in tip-top shape.

For more Bard-y things, consider talking to her about situations where her spells could augment her high Charisma (which is a premium in her party). Things like Disguise Self, Detect Thoughts, Suggestion, or similar abilities.

[Keravath]

In the first couple of levels, most characters have one attack likely with a sword or light crossbow or a single attack cantrip. They are pretty equal unless optimized with polearm master or crossbow expert feats as a variant human.

However, the bard should already be the dominant force in social situations. None of the other classes have a high charisma. If the bard does not have at least the persuasion skill and possibly deception then you might want to allow them to change these a bit.

At level 3 bards becomes even more of a force with regards to skills since they pick up expertise in 2 skills. A lore bard also gains 3 additional skills.

The bard is also the backup healer. They should at least have healing word in case the cleric goes down. The bard also has jack of all trades, bardic inspiration and song of rest. A lore bard gets cutting words at third level. There is a theme here :) ... A bard tends to be a party multiplier ... they dominate in social situations and have abilities and spells that support the rest of the party making combat easier.

There is NOTHING better than the bard casting faerie fire and getting it to stick to half a dozen enemies ... it gives the entire party advantage on everyone who fails. Unfortunately, there are times when all the enemies pass but that is just the luck of the dice.

Dissonant whispers can trigger op attacks when the target is forced to run away.

Blindness can give everyone advantage attacking the bad guy while they have disadvantage to attack you.

Suggestion can take one target out of the fight and has some great out of combat utility.

Phantasmal force can also take an opponent out of the fight while they fight the imaginary opponent.

At 5th level hypnotic pattern can completely change the face of a combat.

---

All that said, the bards only damaging cantrip, vicious mockery truly sucks. They also can only wear light armor and have a limited selection of weapons.

One possible solution to these concerns is to take two levels of multiclass into hexblade warlock.

Eldritch+agonizing blast (plus possibly hex) will give the bard a competitive ranged damage option throughout however long the character is played. They also get proficiency with medium armor, shields and martial weapons so the AC goes up a lot and they aren't so squishy. They get one additional invocation (devils sight is a popular option to be able to see perfectly - better than darkvision - for 120' in complete darkness) or whatever they like. Additional spells like shield and hex as well as two more cantrips.

I have a level 8 lore bard/ 2 hexblade warlock and I haven't yet regretted the delay on receiving the next level of spells. The flexibility of having an at-will damage option for turns when I don't cast a control spell has been extremely useful. Usually I find I cast a concentration spell, an occasional situational non-concentration spell (blindness) and then eldritch blast when there is nothing else to do. Eldritch blast scales with character level and not class level ... so it always remains useful where weapon damage does not.

[lunaticfringe]

Level up?

3 Expertise & College Goodies
4 ASI/Feat
5 Inspiration recharge on Short Rest & 3rd level spells

Bard 1 & 2 can feel a bit bleh depending on you stats & spell selection. You don't have Expertise and Inspiration only recharges on a long rest. My advice is to stick it out.

Warlock 2 mentioned above is a good fix for people who find the Base bard somewhat lacking in the Damage department.

[Trustypeaches]

Until level 3 the Bard will likely seem very lackluster compared to the other listed classes, especially in combat situations.

They don't have Expertise to serve as a skill monkey. They don't have their combat Bardic Inspiration uses (Mantle of Inspiration and Cutting Words are gamechangers). That said they still put out decent weapon damage with a Rapier or Light Crossbow and they have excellent combat spells like Faerie Fire and Dissonant Whispers.

[Tawmis]

I should add - for all of the players, this is their first time playing D&D. (Well, we've done 4 sessions now).

I've been initially very lax on the rules - focusing more on the players learning which dice to roll, where their bonuses are, etc.

Each session, I introduce actual rules, to get the players slowly familiar with the game mechanics. So for most of them, it's pretty straight forward "Barbarian - me hit things", "Cleric - I keep everyone alive!", "Ranger - I scout around", "Rogue - I pick locks, check for traps!" (Although the rogue is notoriously forgetting to check for traps...). So as a Bard, she's not too clear on what should be done - I offer advice and guide her (but I've actually never played a bard myself, and I've played D&D for like over 30 years. lol)



I notice that you don't have a single other character in your team that uses Charisma as regularly as the Bard. Use that. Maybe they don't have to come up with giant monologues, but they should be helping in the decision making of the party. Maybe the Ranger is a more experienced and pronounced player, and makes a lot of the group decisions, but NPCs are still more drawn to the Bard for her comforting aura.


This is an excellent idea. I did have her once, when the party was low on money, offer the suggestion of playing a song at the local tavern and doing a Performance Check, and having patrons tip her for her music, based on how good her roll was. So she's done this a few times, which I think is cool. (And she - the player - has actually brought a ukulele the last few times!)



Most casters don't really stand out until level 3 anyway. Wizards blow stuff up, Druids control the battlefield, Clerics heal, but nobody can manipulate people like a Bard.


I think that's the point I need to drive home; is the Charisma and potential to manipulate and get information.



When she levels up, try to see what the group needs to help her stand out. Bards have the most diverse subclass list, ranging between melee combatants, ranged combatants, and several support options. If 4 of her teammates are going melee, a Swords Bard isn't going to add much. However, if only 2 of her teammates are going melee, a Valor Bard would fit perfectly to keep her back line in tip-top shape.


They will be hitting Level 3 after the next main adventure... so I will definitely be sitting with her to decide.



For more Bard-y things, consider talking to her about situations where her spells could augment her high Charisma (which is a premium in her party). Things like Disguise Self, Detect Thoughts, Suggestion, or similar abilities.

Thank you! All of this was VERY useful.



In the first couple of levels, most characters have one attack likely with a sword or light crossbow or a single attack cantrip. They are pretty equal unless optimized with polearm master or crossbow expert feats as a variant human.


I've emphasized at Level 3, variations come into play that allow everyone to really customize their character.
As mentioned above, they will be turning Level 3 after the next main adventure.
I've been using Milestones as a leveling guide, to essentially do two things:

1. Remove the idea that EVERYTHING you see is XP and must be killed.
2. Since they're new players, I level them when I see everyone is familiar with their character.



However, the bard should already be the dominant force in social situations. None of the other classes have a high charisma. If the bard does not have at least the persuasion skill and possibly deception then you might want to allow them to change these a bit.


I think I just need to push her to be the one to be asking for information. She's very quiet (the player is).



The bard is also the backup healer. They should at least have healing word in case the cleric goes down.


I will hand it to the Cleric in the party - she hangs back, and she's probably the one who pays attention the most. After the first adventure, I told them all, "I often give clues about things, as I describe them." Since then, she's honed in to my every word. So for being brand new to the game, the Cleric is pretty good at staying alive (and keep the others, alive - usually). Because it's the first time for everyone, I give everyone up to -10 HP (essentially -1 to -9, you're bleeding out - and can't be healed - unless bandaged first, which puts them to 0 before healing can be done). At -10, you start doing Death Savings Throws.

Last thing I want to do is discourage new players that they need to roll up a new character.



The bard also has jack of all trades, bardic inspiration and song of rest. A lore bard gets cutting words at third level. There is a theme here :) ... A bard tends to be a party multiplier ... they dominate in social situations and have abilities and spells that support the rest of the party making combat easier.


Great ideas! Thank you!



There is NOTHING better than the bard casting faerie fire and getting it to stick to half a dozen enemies ... it gives the entire party advantage on everyone who fails. Unfortunately, there are times when all the enemies pass but that is just the luck of the dice.


She's used Faerie Fire a few times! I think I need to remind her of some of the spells. (Which is why I do Milestones, to give casters a chance to get familiar with their spells before I am like, "Look! You can pick even more now even though you've not yet become familiar with the previous level spells!")



Dissonant whispers can trigger op attacks when the target is forced to run away.
Blindness can give everyone advantage attacking the bad guy while they have disadvantage to attack you.
Suggestion can take one target out of the fight and has some great out of combat utility.
Phantasmal force can also take an opponent out of the fight while they fight the imaginary opponent.


Thank you!

[Tawmis]

Hah! You guys are replying too fast! (Or I am too long winded!) :D



Level up?
3 Expertise & College Goodies
4 ASI/Feat
5 Inspiration recharge on Short Rest & 3rd level spells
Bard 1 & 2 can feel a bit bleh depending on you stats & spell selection. You don't have Expertise and Inspiration only recharges on a long rest. My advice is to stick it out.
Warlock 2 mentioned above is a good fix for people who find the Base bard somewhat lacking in the Damage department.

See above (post I posted as you replied!) - They're all first time players (four sessions in), so they're not at all familiar with the game, other than the past four sessions. None has even PLAYED or even CONSIDERED playing D&D until a mutual friend was like, "We should try this - and Tawmis DMs all the time!" (Which isn't true - I DM another game, every blue moon!) :D But I did not want to pass the chance on potentially bringing new people into the amazing world of D&D! :)


Until level 3 the Bard will likely seem very lackluster compared to the other listed classes, especially in combat situations.
They don't have Expertise to serve as a skill monkey. They don't have their combat Bardic Inspiration uses (Mantle of Inspiration and Cutting Words are gamechangers). That said they still put out decent weapon damage with a Rapier or Light Crossbow and they have excellent combat spells like Faerie Fire and Dissonant Whispers.

This is true, and this is what I told all of them - Level 3 is where the magic really starts to happen. But I want them to learn their characters before I throw more at them.

[Man_Over_Game]

A few things that our bard has done in a group of magical misfits:

Convince a Guard to let us free (with Charm Person).
Create a performance with lasers (Silent Image)
Pay for our room, food, horses.
Got invited into a wizard's tower (for a "private show").
Dig up supporters to usurp a legal slavery business.
Seduce an old woman into letting us squat in her house.

And he's only level 3.

The ideas are there, but if your player lacks the experience needed, maybe it might be best to throw these situations at them. Once they hit level 4, they should feel comfortable enough about their characters and their situations to understand what to do.

[Nidgit]

In addition to what others have said about being The Charisma, emphasize to the player that in combat, the Bard is all about making others more effective. It's important, when playing a Bard, to be able to have fun enabling and supporting others. If she needs more than that, try and help her pick a subclass that provides a bit more punch in her direction of interest.

Or multiclass Paladin or Warlock.

[JakOfAllTirades]

When your Bard gets to 3rd level, check out the Enhance Ability spell. It's like getting six different spells at once, one for each ability score. Its useful as both a combat and a utility spell.

[Skylivedk]

Have her use her Jack of All Trades to help the others with skill checks. Also encourage a bit of espionage and use of illusions. Due to their high charisma I find bards to be good illusionists (I even went as far as to take actor on my Illusionist to shore up on the perceived weakness).

If she's a very quiet player, have NPCs approach her. My DM did that a lot with our bard. Both me and one of the other players (4 man group) can take a lot of space so the DM has made NPCs drawn to the highest charisma player while we get used to quieting down a bit (well, mostly my character does special effects and illustrations of stories now).

Sleep is almost an AoE death spell at this level, but the player might have more fun if you allow her to do some ventriloquism and a silent image. I've scared entire encounters away with flying gargoyles, images of artillery etc.

Also maybe give her hints through knowledge checks to support the Wizard and Cleric. DM it so she's heard stories while traveling, picked up on some rumors etc.

If she gets used to playing to get strengths sheill hopefully find the bard to be what it is: one of the most versatile and powerful classes in the game :)

[sophontteks]

For roles, a bard is a spellcaster through and through. They can rival any full caster. They focus on control spells. It all depends a bit on the archtype of course.

Lore bards are the best pure casters, arguably the strongest spellcaster in the game with extra skills to top it off.

Glamour bards are the best control casters able to move their allies out of the aoe while giving them temp hp, and they have a social nuke.

Valor bards are the tankiest casters, not to be underestimated. They can handle themselves without hurting their casting, and they can even swing back pretty effectively.

The other two are a little weak imo, but they can be really fun. I wouldn't recommend them to a new player. Best new player choice is probably valor.

[Sigreid]

Inspiration and song of rest. A bard can be a 5th wheel character but they're a 5th wheel that can short term carry the weight of any of the others. And no one else gets inspiration and song of rest to make every single other wheel more awesome.

[GoodmanDL]

If they are new players, I would not encourage Multiclassing. I'd suggest just getting used to playing the game.

It will be frustrating for a player to see the Barbarian do damage and wonder how to keep up. But as the Bard, hitting things and doing damage is not your #1 job.

The Bard is a story character, and the Bard plays instruments. Try to encourage your player to lean into what the bard can do... the Bard has heard of stuff most people haven't. Strangers tend to think the Bard is cool. People want to hear the Bard tell stories. Work with that.

Yeah, in battle the bard doesn't do awesome damage, the bard plays instruments. And your team members are your instruments... your spells can make the Barbarian even more deadly, or an enemy much less dangerous. Your band will win fights, and the Bard doesn't even get dirty.

[Grimmnist]

Dissonant whispers can trigger op attacks when the target is forced to run away.
I play bard a lot, and that is my favorite 1st level spell. Nothing better than running up next to the enemy by your big hitter and triggering 2 attacks of opportunity.

One really cool item my DM gave me was a rapier with the ability, "Whenever you cast a spell of the 1st level or higher the next attack you make this turn with this weapon has advantage." Worked really well with dissonant, and ok synergy with healing word.

[Tawmis]

In addition to what others have said about being The Charisma, emphasize to the player that in combat, the Bard is all about making others more effective. It's important, when playing a Bard, to be able to have fun enabling and supporting others. If she needs more than that, try and help her pick a subclass that provides a bit more punch in her direction of interest.

Or multiclass Paladin or Warlock.

If they are new players, I would not encourage Multiclassing. I'd suggest just getting used to playing the game.
It will be frustrating for a player to see the Barbarian do damage and wonder how to keep up. But as the Bard, hitting things and doing damage is not your #1 job.


My fear with her multi-classing is trying to learn two classes, rather than focusing on one.


When your Bard gets to 3rd level, check out the Enhance Ability spell. It's like getting six different spells at once, one for each ability score. Its useful as both a combat and a utility spell.

I am looking forward to doing the next major question - because of using Milestones - everyone will go to Level 3. Everyone seems to have a good feel for all of their characters - even the Bard, but she's often very quiet. (And before the game, she's extremely talkative in a good way!) So I know she has it in her. I just think she's not yet comfortable with the game itself and how to act. (I don't force everyone to "speak in character") - just tell me what you'd like to do.


Inspiration and song of rest. A bard can be a 5th wheel character but they're a 5th wheel that can short term carry the weight of any of the others. And no one else gets inspiration and song of rest to make every single other wheel more awesome.

This is what I told her (along those lines), when she was trying to decide on a class. I explained that the Bard uses music, stories and (even taunts) to either "buff up" her companions or "demoralize" the enemy. They're not big into upfront attacks.



The Bard is a story character, and the Bard plays instruments. Try to encourage your player to lean into what the bard can do... the Bard has heard of stuff most people haven't. Strangers tend to think the Bard is cool. People want to hear the Bard tell stories. Work with that.


I think that's a key point - like I said, I've had her now Perform skill in taverns to get money for the party and such, but I need to do more.


Have her use her Jack of All Trades to help the others with skill checks. Also encourage a bit of espionage and use of illusions. Due to their high charisma I find bards to be good illusionists (I even went as far as to take actor on my Illusionist to shore up on the perceived weakness).
If she's a very quiet player, have NPCs approach her. My DM did that a lot with our bard. Both me and one of the other players (4 man group) can take a lot of space so the DM has made NPCs drawn to the highest charisma player while we get used to quieting down a bit (well, mostly my character does special effects and illustrations of stories now).
Sleep is almost an AoE death spell at this level, but the player might have more fun if you allow her to do some ventriloquism and a silent image. I've scared entire encounters away with flying gargoyles, images of artillery etc.
Also maybe give her hints through knowledge checks to support the Wizard and Cleric. DM it so she's heard stories while traveling, picked up on some rumors etc.
If she gets used to playing to get strengths sheill hopefully find the bard to be what it is: one of the most versatile and powerful classes in the game :)


For roles, a bard is a spellcaster through and through. They can rival any full caster. They focus on control spells. It all depends a bit on the archtype of course.
Lore bards are the best pure casters, arguably the strongest spellcaster in the game with extra skills to top it off.
Glamour bards are the best control casters able to move their allies out of the aoe while giving them temp hp, and they have a social nuke.
Valor bards are the tankiest casters, not to be underestimated. They can handle themselves without hurting their casting, and they can even swing back pretty effectively.
The other two are a little weak imo, but they can be really fun. I wouldn't recommend them to a new player. Best new player choice is probably valor.

I think I need to read up on Bards more, as a DM, to get a better understanding myself (I've never played one in my zillions of years of playing D&D), and it would strongly benefit her if I did.



One really cool item my DM gave me was a rapier with the ability, "Whenever you cast a spell of the 1st level or higher the next attack you make this turn with this weapon has advantage." Worked really well with dissonant, and ok synergy with healing word.

She did recently acquire a magic long sword that has a mystery behind it, that I've created lore for - to put her on a quest for discovering more about this blade.

[KillingTime]

...

All that said, the bards only damaging cantrip, vicious mockery truly sucks. They also can only wear light armor and have a limited selection of weapons.

One possible solution to these concerns is to take two levels of multiclass into hexblade warlock.


I couldn't disagree with this advice any more.

Vicious Mockery is an excellent spell, particularly at lower levels.
You're not casting it for the damage. You're casting it for the disadvantage rider, which is truly nasty against low level bad guys.

Secondly, Bards have no need to MC into warlock. There is an argument to do so at much higher levels, since 19&20 are pretty lackluster. But at low levels all you do is slow down progression to the truly awesome class features at 3&6.
Remember, bards are not there to deal damage. They're there to make your party awesome, make the enemies rubbish and to dominate in any social encounters.
Warlock dips are a trap.

[sophontteks]

I couldn't disagree with this advice any more.

Vicious Mockery is an excellent spell, particularly at lower levels.
You're not casting it for the damage. You're casting it for the disadvantage rider, which is truly nasty against low level bad guys.

Secondly, Bards have no need to MC into warlock. There is an argument to do so at much higher levels, since 19&20 are pretty lackluster. But at low levels all you do is slow down progression to the truly awesome class features at 3&6.
Remember, bards are not there to deal damage. They're there to make your party awesome, make the enemies rubbish and to dominate in any social encounters.
Warlock dips are a trap.
Second this. Vicious Mockery is an A+ cantrip. An amazing rider on a difficult save. It can save lives. I've used it and it did save lives. DM rolled a crit until I reminded him that the roll is with disadvantage.

This is a team game. Not everyone needs to DPS to win.

[Keravath]

I couldn't disagree with this advice any more.

Vicious Mockery is an excellent spell, particularly at lower levels.
You're not casting it for the damage. You're casting it for the disadvantage rider, which is truly nasty against low level bad guys.

Secondly, Bards have no need to MC into warlock. There is an argument to do so at much higher levels, since 19&20 are pretty lackluster. But at low levels all you do is slow down progression to the truly awesome class features at 3&6.
Remember, bards are not there to deal damage. They're there to make your party awesome, make the enemies rubbish and to dominate in any social encounters.
Warlock dips are a trap.

We can agree to disagree :)

I was in a party with four bards (myself, 3 other bards and 3 other characters for a total of 7) at tier 1. I was 2/2 bard/warlock and the others were 3 to 4 bard. Although they had access to second level spells about half the time or a bit more they were casting vicious mockery. d4 damage/disadvantage on ONE attack ... save for no effect. Half the time, the spell did nothing, the other half there was disadvantage on the next attack from the target but many high tier one monsters have multiattack so it at most impeded one attack. Disadvantage was convenient for the first attack ... but do you know how long it took to take the attackers down doing an average of 1 damage/round with vicious mockery?

Anyway, at least in Adventurers League when you don't know who you might be playing with, I have found that 2 levels of warlock with agonizing blast and devils sight on a variant human with resilient constitution as their starting feat has been extremely useful. Medium armor + shield gives me an AC of 18 plus shield spell for 23 and hex for added damage. Hex warrior to use charisma if I need to make a weapon attack and hexblades curse for those tougher boss monsters.

Is it needed? Absolutely not! The base bard is awesome. Does it fix some of the weaknesses of bards (armor, shield, weapon proficiencies ... shield and hex spell ... at will direct damage (hex+eldritch+agonizing blast .. if you aren't concentrating on anything else ... ability to see in the dark if you don't have darkvision but want a feat at level 1) ... my opinion is yes.

[KillingTime]

We can agree to disagree :)

I was in a party with four bards (myself, 3 other bards and 3 other characters for a total of 7) at tier 1. I was 2/2 bard/warlock and the others were 3 to 4 bard. Although they had access to second level spells about half the time or a bit more they were casting vicious mockery. d4 damage/disadvantage on ONE attack ... save for no effect. Half the time, the spell did nothing, the other half there was disadvantage on the next attack from the target but many high tier one monsters have multiattack so it at most impeded one attack. Disadvantage was convenient for the first attack ... but do you know how long it took to take the attackers down doing an average of 1 damage/round with vicious mockery?

I'm not sure that taking the absolute edge case of a 4 bard (+3) party is really good evidence for your argument. And at level 4, with a maximum of 6 spell slots, it's only natural that most casters are going to fall back on cantrips for the majority of the time. A tier 1 bard who needs to cause significant damage should pick up a rapier and a hand crossbow and put their decent Dex to good use... (You did bump dex as your second attribute, right?).
In the vast majority of parties there will be a maximum of one bard, and their job is to buff/debuff/face. The other party members will do dps.
If you treat Vicious Mockery as a damage spell you're doing it wrong.
In reality it's a debuff with a small damage rider.




Anyway, at least in Adventurers League when you don't know who you might be playing with, I have found that 2 levels of warlock with agonizing blast and devils sight on a variant human with resilient constitution as their starting feat has been extremely useful. Medium armor + shield gives me an AC of 18 plus shield spell for 23 and hex for added damage. Hex warrior to use charisma if I need to make a weapon attack and hexblades curse for those tougher boss monsters.

Is it needed? Absolutely not! The base bard is awesome. Does it fix some of the weaknesses of bards (armor, shield, weapon proficiencies ... shield and hex spell ... at will direct damage (hex+eldritch+agonizing blast .. if you aren't concentrating on anything else ... ability to see in the dark if you don't have darkvision but want a feat at level 1) ... my opinion is yes.

The hexblade build you are talking about ceases to be a true bard though, and falls way behind a full bard in utility/control casting which is what the full bard's job is.
Instead you've got a melee/blaster with more of the functionality of the warlock than the bard.
And while you may have fixed some of the so-called weaknesses of the bard (who still gets better proficiencies than any other full arcane caster, while arguably being the more powerful caster), you've done so by grossly slowing down the progression towards level 3 (cutting words etc), level 5 (l3 spells) and level 6 (magical secrets/2 attacks etc).

In my view (which I'll agree is no more valid than yours), you might as well play a full warlock if you want to play that style and are concerned about DPS.
Or embrace low damage/high utility and play a full bard.

[Unoriginal]

So I DM a group that has a Level 2 Wizard, Level 2 Ranger, Level 2 Barbarian, Level 2 Bard, Level 2 Cleric, and Level 1 Ranger/1 Rogue.

I feel like the Bard is feeling overshadowed.

She doesn't match the damage of the barbarian.
She can't match the Rogue's skills.
Her heals aren't as good as the Cleric.
And her damage spells don't compare to the Wizard.

What are some recommendations you'd offer for a bard to enhance their playability (it's not a word, but I am making it one!)

I always try to be mindful and creature adventures that put everyone to some use at some point. But I think the Bard isn't enjoying herself as the rest. (But she's entirely too sweet to say otherwise).

Two questions:

How many neutral-to-friendly NPCs do the party interact with?

Are the enemy NPCs presented as see-you-and-fight-to-the-death-automatically type?


Personally, I would have the PCs find an inn while they're in a downpour/strong snow fall, but it's full. However, given everyone is in a poor mood, the innkeeper is willing to give the PCs a room and a meal if they can entertain the audience.

[sophontteks]

We can agree to disagree :)

I was in a party with four bards (myself, 3 other bards and 3 other characters for a total of 7) at tier 1. I was 2/2 bard/warlock and the others were 3 to 4 bard. Although they had access to second level spells about half the time or a bit more they were casting vicious mockery. d4 damage/disadvantage on ONE attack ... save for no effect. Half the time, the spell did nothing, the other half there was disadvantage on the next attack from the target but many high tier one monsters have multiattack so it at most impeded one attack. Disadvantage was convenient for the first attack ... but do you know how long it took to take the attackers down doing an average of 1 damage/round with vicious mockery?

Anyway, at least in Adventurers League when you don't know who you might be playing with, I have found that 2 levels of warlock with agonizing blast and devils sight on a variant human with resilient constitution as their starting feat has been extremely useful. Medium armor + shield gives me an AC of 18 plus shield spell for 23 and hex for added damage. Hex warrior to use charisma if I need to make a weapon attack and hexblades curse for those tougher boss monsters.

Is it needed? Absolutely not! The base bard is awesome. Does it fix some of the weaknesses of bards (armor, shield, weapon proficiencies ... shield and hex spell ... at will direct damage (hex+eldritch+agonizing blast .. if you aren't concentrating on anything else ... ability to see in the dark if you don't have darkvision but want a feat at level 1) ... my opinion is yes.
This would be an exception circumstance. You are basically MCing out of bard because that role is already covered.

[Keravath]

I'm not sure that taking the absolute edge case of a 4 bard (+3) party is really good evidence for your argument. And at level 4, with a maximum of 6 spell slots, it's only natural that most casters are going to fall back on cantrips for the majority of the time. A tier 1 bard who needs to cause significant damage should pick up a rapier and a hand crossbow and put their decent Dex to good use... (You did bump dex as your second attribute, right?).
In the vast majority of parties there will be a maximum of one bard, and their job is to buff/debuff/face. The other party members will do dps.
If you treat Vicious Mockery as a damage spell you're doing it wrong.
In reality it's a debuff with a small damage rider.


The hexblade build you are talking about ceases to be a true bard though, and falls way behind a full bard in utility/control casting which is what the full bard's job is.
Instead you've got a melee/blaster with more of the functionality of the warlock than the bard.
And while you may have fixed some of the so-called weaknesses of the bard (who still gets better proficiencies than any other full arcane caster, while arguably being the more powerful caster), you've done so by grossly slowing down the progression towards level 3 (cutting words etc), level 5 (l3 spells) and level 6 (magical secrets/2 attacks etc).

In my view (which I'll agree is no more valid than yours), you might as well play a full warlock if you want to play that style and are concerned about DPS.
Or embrace low damage/high utility and play a full bard.

I'll agree my example was extreme (and I do think the other bards would have been better off using their crossbows honestly ... I did before I picked up the second level in hexblade).

However, I don't see how 2 levels of warlock would make the character "not a true bard" (?!) and although long term it does put the spell progression behind by one spell tier I would hesitate to say it is "way behind" except perhaps at character level 5-6 (particularly 6).

However, the character is level 10 now (8 lore bard/ 2 hexblade warlock) and except for character level 6, I haven't felt particularly behind. So far, the utility, for me, of the 2 level hexblade dip has exceeded the lag in spells.

I think this may be in part due to playing in AL where you don't know what the party composition might be for any given module. There are different players and characters at pretty much every game.

For example, my 6th level magical secrets were fireball and counterspell. Fireball has proved particularly useful a couple of times when there were no wizards or sorcerers in the group. I also hang on to healing word since there have been games where I was the only healer in the party.

It is likely for a similar reason that I find having at will direct damage so useful since there are times when the best approach is to take an enemy down quickly or there may be a number of spaced out relatively weak opponents. I also find medium armor+shield+shield spell useful since there have been times when I ended up in a tanking role since the party was mostly rogues and wizards.

The additional 2 first level short rest spell slots are also very useful for faerie fire/shield/hex.

So from the perspective of building a versatile character that can adapt to more situations than support caster, I find the 2 level hexblade dip invaluable.

[Keravath]

This would be an exception circumstance. You are basically MCing out of bard because that role is already covered.

Lol :) .. no, I am MCing out of bard because I have NO idea what roles will need to be covered and so wanted to cover a larger number of roles while being one tier of spells behind a pure bard. For me, the trade off has been worthwhile.

[Guy Lombard-O]

I think somebody already said it above in this thread, but I'd second the idea that Valor is a good subclass for a starting bard. Particularly if the player is quiet and unsure of herself.

I picked Valor as my first bard because I was thrilled with the idea of a full caster with Extra Attack. I actually made Dex higher than Cha to start, and took Sharpshooter. I then focused upon some of the easier spells to contribute to combat, like Tasha's, Sleep, and Heat Metal (which can be a really excellent 2nd level spell). Later on, I started using more of the social interaction spells like Charm Person, Disguise Self and Suggestion. But if your player is having difficulty getting the hang of bard and feeling like she needs to contribute more to combat (which really she doesn't, but I've totally been there!), maybe leaning more on the Dex/combat side would help her feel like a full member of the team?

[sophontteks]

Lol :) .. no, I am MCing out of bard because I have NO idea what roles will need to be covered and so wanted to cover a larger number of roles while being one tier of spells behind a pure bard. For me, the trade off has been worthwhile.
In your example, I mean. It wasn't the cantrip that was bad, it was that you had 4 bards. I've heard that AL requires players to pick up all roles all the time and I get why this build would work well in AL.

But outside of AL, in the situation the OP described, I think the bards role is going to really shine. They have a ton of dps on the board, and having someone who can control the tempo of the fight is going to really help them maximize their damage.

What I would do in this big party is go glamour. Use inspriation to reposition the team, hand out tons of temp hp like candy, and finally cast a big AOE spell like faerie fire and hypnotic pattern right on top of the enemy. All in one turn. Pretty much out healing the cleric and out wizarding the wizard all in one round.

[Tawmis]

Two questions:
How many neutral-to-friendly NPCs do the party interact with?
Are the enemy NPCs presented as see-you-and-fight-to-the-death-automatically type?


If the NPCs (Monsters) encountered are intelligent (especially, if they're human - like the Brigands they fought in the last adventure) - the chance to speak to them is always present. However, the Bard rarely takes up the chance to make herself vulnerable (due to lower HP and less than ideal AC). So it usually results in the Ranger/Rogue doing the talking (neither of which has a high CHR), and then the Barbarian rushes into battle.

I think I need to make more time to make her stand out. The first adventure the party went on when they arrived on the new continent, centered all around her - and she was in it, hook line and sinker. But after that mission was completed, she kind of backed up a little.



Personally, I would have the PCs find an inn while they're in a downpour/strong snow fall, but it's full. However, given everyone is in a poor mood, the innkeeper is willing to give the PCs a room and a meal if they can entertain the audience.

I did something similar. When the party first arrived on the new continent that was their first adventure, they were essentially low on money. So I the Bard took it upon herself to play some music (and I did a thing the better her Performance roll, the more gold she earned in tips from patrons). So they were able to pay for their room.

The player herself has like the biggest heart in the world - so I think I need to do some more emotionally charged adventures to get her more into it.


I think somebody already said it above in this thread, but I'd second the idea that Valor is a good subclass for a starting bard. Particularly if the player is quiet and unsure of herself.

I picked Valor as my first bard because I was thrilled with the idea of a full caster with Extra Attack. I actually made Dex higher than Cha to start, and took Sharpshooter. I then focused upon some of the easier spells to contribute to combat, like Tasha's, Sleep, and Heat Metal (which can be a really excellent 2nd level spell). Later on, I started using more of the social interaction spells like Charm Person, Disguise Self and Suggestion. But if your player is having difficulty getting the hang of bard and feeling like she needs to contribute more to combat (which really she doesn't, but I've totally been there!), maybe leaning more on the Dex/combat side would help her feel like a full member of the team?

At Level 3 I definitely want to go over everyone's options, and spend some time with everyone. Our very first session didn't even involve an adventure. It was about rolling up characters, explaining what they do and such. So I think when everyone hits Level 3 I will do the same (though the Ranger who multi-classed into Rogue, won't have the same benefit as everyone else - but at least she purchased a Player's Handbook, so she probably has a little more info than the other players who do not own the PH).

[Unoriginal]

You could introduce a rival bard who would pop up from time to time, and have them desire to become the best bard in the world.

That would open plenty of shenanigans.

Also you don't have to be on the frontline to speak with people.

[Tawmis]

Also you don't have to be on the frontline to speak with people.

Agreed. And I think once I started using maps and figures it helped her have a visual.

Because the first few sessions (as I said, it was more about learning their character and dice), I didn't use a map - just their movement speed. So that there was no concern if Bob the Barbarian was blocking the Ranger's view of the enemy, for example. It was more - just open - have fun and fight.

[sophontteks]

If the NPCs (Monsters) encountered are intelligent (especially, if they're human - like the Brigands they fought in the last adventure) - the chance to speak to them is always present. However, the Bard rarely takes up the chance to make herself vulnerable (due to lower HP and less than ideal AC). So it usually results in the Ranger/Rogue doing the talking (neither of which has a high CHR), and then the Barbarian rushes into battle.

I think I need to make more time to make her stand out. The first adventure the party went on when they arrived on the new continent, centered all around her - and she was in it, hook line and sinker. But after that mission was completed, she kind of backed up a little.



I did something similar. When the party first arrived on the new continent that was their first adventure, they were essentially low on money. So I the Bard took it upon herself to play some music (and I did a thing the better her Performance roll, the more gold she earned in tips from patrons). So they were able to pay for their room.

The player herself has like the biggest heart in the world - so I think I need to do some more emotionally charged adventures to get her more into it.



At Level 3 I definitely want to go over everyone's options, and spend some time with everyone. Our very first session didn't even involve an adventure. It was about rolling up characters, explaining what they do and such. So I think when everyone hits Level 3 I will do the same (though the Ranger who multi-classed into Rogue, won't have the same benefit as everyone else - but at least she purchased a Player's Handbook, so she probably has a little more info than the other players who do not own the PH).
Valor was underestimated initially by many people, myself included. The big draw is that it makes the bard much tougher to kill. Medium armor and shields give a lot of AC. This is great for a new player who may not be so great with positioning.

The downside, and its a big downside, is that the subclass is pretty boring.

Glamour is my jam because its so unique. The subclass abilities really stand out because there is just nothing in the game similiar to the things a glamour bard can do. Its really fun roleplaying a character so dangerously seductive.

I had a rolling joke in my game that my bard was more dangerous in chains. Party would see him get taken away by authorities only to see him returning minutes later with those same guards acting like little schoolgirls, practically worshipping him.