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Grimmnist
2018-11-19, 08:10 PM
-Edit: came to the conclusion that I am a bad DM for the player/group, gonna scrap the campaign-

I DM a 5 player party in 5e with campaigns I write. We recently finished a ~6 month campaign and started a new one with a couple players switching out. One of the players who has been in the group the whole time has a fundamentally different play-style to how I DM. He assumes whatever his character chooses to do will work flawlessly, trying to trick or get the better of every npc and trying to use various spells to perfectly solve any problem. In the game I run these antics often fail spectacularly with NPC's catching on given his +1 in Deception or the spells just not doing what he thought they did. I run a pretty mechanically strict game and the PCs are not the center of the world. If you play a different style that's totally fine, this is just what I like running.

The differences between this player and myself haven't been too big of an issue because I go along with his action, but there are real stakes. Trick the barbarian into trading gold for an illusory watermelon to smash, he hunts you in the wilds after discovering the trick. Volunteer at the library in an attempt to break into the 'restricted section', spend several hours dusting while the rest of the party has a small adventure, and find that the public library doesn't actually have ancient dark magic tomes just an employees only office section.

Unfortunately, I recently had to end a session early to figure out the consequences for some pretty bad decisions. The party was exploring a desert ruin, upon entry they saw a plot-important door with a specialized keyhole. Further into the dungeon they found a large room containing a chest with the same keyhole and the key itself on opposite sides of the room. Upon picking up the key enemies spawn and the room starts filling with sand creating difficult terrain and a timer to get out, the chest is optional, but contains a nice reward if the party manages to get it within the time limit (like by giving the key to the character who ignores difficult terrain). Unfortunately this player had the key and assumed the spell Mold Earth (let's you move a 5ft cube of loose dirt 5ft away) would allow him to create a structurally sound tunnel back to the entrance while buried in sand. I didn't kill his character, though maybe I should have, since it was a misunderstanding on mechanics. However, I had his character roll checks to see if they dropped the loot and the key while struggling the 60ft back to safety. He dropped it all, and unfortunately since the key was plot essential I had to end the session to figure out what to do next. I didn't want to just give the players another key or mcguffin since that would take away any stakes from the poor strategy that had been employed but getting that key was actually plot essential. After a couple days I came up with a solution I really liked. The party retreated back to the city, and on there next adventure they met a specialized locksmith who can help them get through that door. Now, they have to split whatever loot they find there with the locksmith, and you can bet he's taking something that player would have wanted.

I am interested in hearing how others have dealt with similar situations, and pick up some ideas for when this inevitably happens again.

Darth Ultron
2018-11-19, 08:55 PM
Lets take a classic, Player Edgar: All the PCs go to the kings feast at the adventure start, and Ed starts up with the ''I'm CN so I steal the silverware!". So...I have the kings silverware animate and attack the character. The rest of the Pcs and the king have a pleasant talk...while Edgar's PC fights the sliverware. A perfect slapstick like comedy bit with real role playing and drama in the foreground. Eventually the silverware knocked out poor Edgar's PC. The point was: it did not disrupt the game at all. Edgar had fun, and the other players had fun(and they kept playing the main game). Then before they left...the king gave Edgar's PC a Silver Spoon ''because he wanted one so bad"....and the spoon promptly turned around, formed an eye and winked at Edgar's PC. And Edgar's PC then threw it in a lake. But it did not end there....the Silver Spoon followed Edgar's PC for years...and it became a fun reoccurring 'almost once a game' bit for the Silver Spoon to show up. And the Silver Spoon had a lot of real game play effects, and added lots of humor...but most of all was disruptive to Edgar's PCs life. Of course if he would have never done the dumb 'steal the silverware' or just kept the spoon in his pocket like the spoon wanted him to do, then it would have been all a thing at all.

Grimmnist
2018-11-19, 10:01 PM
@Darth Ultron - Ooooooo, I really like that idea! I will certainly keep that in the back of my mind just waiting for someone to steal something stupid!

Darth Ultron
2018-11-19, 10:59 PM
The Tale of Billy ''Donkey Kong" Dusseult. Billy was a jerk, even more so in his mistreatment of girls. Winters up North can be long and cold. And kids with little else to do spend many long hours in the community rec center. Board games and even video games get boring after a while. One day, I was there too and two of the girls asked me to run a D&D game, and so was born the quick ''elven princesses save the unicorn from the ogre" game. A couple more girls run over to join and other then saving the unicorn, one of the elven princess gets to ride off with the unicorn(if your wondering, as this was an all girls game they captured the ogre and each of the girls insisted that another get the unicorn, so none of them did). The girls had a ton of fun, and this quickly leads to me being asked if I could come back to run more games.

This leads to the Demons of Dovedale, as basic ''demons want to enter and take over the world adventure." So the group forms of both boys and girls...and one boy is Billy. Billy immediately starts to rant about how ''girls should not play this game" and ''girl can't do this" and "can't do that" and so on.

So quickly enough, the group kills a demon commander and gets effected by the demon echo: if they work together as a unit they get bonuses, and if they don't they get minuses...and donkey(ed). The girls had no problem with team work, and neither did the other boy.....but not Billy. It only took Billy a couple minutes to get his character turned into a donkey. Throughout the winter ''Donkey Billy" became quite an attraction (the girls made him a donkey hat with the tail from the pin the tail on the donkey game). Billy struggled as he would play more then half the game with his character as a donkey(or for more fun, a humanoid donkey..but with hoofs and not hands), but Billy could just not stop the ''girl" comments. It was some very long dramatic, even traumatic, hours of game play for Billy...even worse as he would often have an audience.

It took forever, just about all winter, but Billy did finally learn that he did not have to make ''girl" comments all the time. And there was a round of applause when Billy made it through his first game without his character being polymorphed into a donkey even once(and Billy's mom threw us a pizza party next week too because of this). While Billy might not have changed completely, he at least learned to break his habit of putting down girls constantly and to maybe not say every negative girl comment that 'popped' into his head. Then spring came and the kids could play outside....

Billy bulked up over the summer and started playing football. As he was a big kid...his football nickname was "Donkey Kong". So he did not come back to games next fall. For the next couple years I only saw him occasionally. Time moves on and Billy graduates from high school and I don't see him any more for a while. Then he shows up at my door one day: he is getting married and wants to invite me to the wedding. Billy..ahem..William tells me how much I effected his life...buy really just being his DM. I was the first adult ever (other then his mom) that ever told Billy him that how he was treating people..girls specifically, was wrong. He tells me how much that winter of D&D really effected him and how he was amazed that when he broke the habit of ''putting down girls" he just never started back up again.

So I go to the wedding(free food! and, sigh, my wife loves weddings). William's wedding picture video (with the music ''country boy can survive") has a picture of young Billy, wearing the donkey hat, arms crossed, sitting at a table looking down at some dice and a Players Handbook....and a picture of me and Billy playing D&D and eating pizza(taken at the above mentioned pizza party). And, the wedding party all plays ''pin the garter on the donkey" at the reception.

Today William is married, with a baby and just turned 21 last month(and as I was at the party with him, I can say Donkey Kong had a blast(drinking four horse men) . And come this winter, he can't wait to get back into gaming. Happy Ending.

Lorencio
2018-11-20, 08:22 AM
The Tale of Billy ''Donkey Kong" Dusseult. - snip -

Best thing I've ever read on this forum. Heart's absolutely molten. Good job, Ultron.

denthor
2018-11-20, 10:12 AM
Questions about the sand room. Can we as players take a shovel and move the sand? Until we get to the key and chest.

Then repeat every 10 feet? It would take weeks but in a fantasy world there is no television. Plus hire bucket carriers to remove the sand if safe for them. All spells have a duration most traps must be reset.

Jay R
2018-11-20, 02:39 PM
Rather than trying to fix the immediate question (which others are taking care of), I'm going to point out the problem that actually led to this situation.

1. The key is important, and there are two places where it can be used. It isn't a "Poor Player Choice" to focus on the closest one of them. It's was a reasonable conclusion.

2. The key is essential, and it was left in a place with a temptation to use it that might prevent its real use and thus derail the adventure. This is a Poor DM Choice. Don't plan the adventure so a reasonable player choice can prevent the adventure.

Next time, either don't design a single barrier to the next part of the adventure, or allow more than way way to get through it.

Resileaf
2018-11-20, 03:13 PM
Rather than trying to fix the immediate question (which others are taking care of), I'm going to point out the problem that actually led to this situation.

1. The key is important, and there are two places where it can be used. It isn't a "Poor Player Choice" to focus on the closest one of them. It's was a reasonable conclusion.

2. The key is essential, and it was left in a place with a temptation to use it that might prevent its real use and thus derail the adventure. This is a Poor DM Choice. Don't plan the adventure so a reasonable player choice can prevent the adventure.

Next time, either don't design a single barrier to the next part of the adventure, or allow more than way way to get through it.

Hence his explanation that he figured out that he could have a NPC able to create a new key in exchange for part of the loot. Therefore, losing the key caused player consequences that seem quite fair to me. Hish risk, high reward kind of thing.

Grimmnist
2018-11-20, 04:41 PM
Ultron, another great story. Hope to have a few DMing stories that good myself someday!


Questions about the sand room. Can we as players take a shovel and move the sand? Until we get to the key and chest.


Both the players and I considered that one and there is no reason it wouldn't work other than being mechanically uninteresting. I would also probably want to tie some consequences like the price of labor and the time spent digging leading to plots advancing to more difficult. At the end of the day I felt the NPC making a key for the door in exchange for loot was cleaner.



Next time, either don't design a single barrier to the next part of the adventure, or allow more than way way to get through it.

That is a fair point, I mostly run sandbox style where it is possible to just fail quests, so for my normal style I think it was fine. However, right now I am doing a more narrative based adventure to integrate the new players so I should have thought through preventing advancement before making a bad DM choice on the fly. I am happy with the solution I found (the NPC getting some loot) but I didn't think of it until after the session, thus why I'm trying to get ideas other's have used to prep for the future.

denthor
2018-11-20, 05:21 PM
[QUOTE=Grimmnist;23518905]Ultron, another great story. Hope to have a few DMing stories that good myself someday!



Both the players and I considered that one and there is no reason it wouldn't work other than being mechanically uninteresting. I would also probably want to tie some consequences like the price of labor and the time spent digging leading to plots advancing to more difficult. At the end of the day I felt the NPC making a key for the door in exchange for loot was cleaner.

As a player I would gladly pay a gold per week which is ten times average pay for 3 weeks and 10 people. So total 30 gold to get it done quickly.

Your only problems as a DM are random encounters and if they are deadly or not. If a locksmith will go in does not seem to be a very big likelihood.

Lunali
2018-11-20, 11:15 PM
Rather than trying to fix the immediate question (which others are taking care of), I'm going to point out the problem that actually led to this situation.

1. The key is important, and there are two places where it can be used. It isn't a "Poor Player Choice" to focus on the closest one of them. It's was a reasonable conclusion.

2. The key is essential, and it was left in a place with a temptation to use it that might prevent its real use and thus derail the adventure. This is a Poor DM Choice. Don't plan the adventure so a reasonable player choice can prevent the adventure.

Next time, either don't design a single barrier to the next part of the adventure, or allow more than way way to get through it.

At the very least, don't make the player roll an unnecessary check that you aren't prepared to have them fail. There was no reason to check to see if the character would drop the key.

Also, the players clearly have access to mold earth, they are quite capable of digging out the sand which is fairly stable on its own once it stops moving.

Mad Nomad
2018-11-21, 12:11 AM
At the very least, don't make the player roll an unnecessary check that you aren't prepared to have them fail. There was no reason to check to see if the character would drop the key.

Also, the players clearly have access to mold earth, they are quite capable of digging out the sand which is fairly stable on its own once it stops moving.

I agree. Making the character drop the key without cause was unreasonable, in my opinion.

What forced him to drop it? Just wading through sand doesn't prevent someone from clutching something in their hand. After all, people wade through combat all the time without randomly dropping items. Why the sudden change in rules?

Now if they needed to use that hand to open the door or drink a potion, that's reasonable. To force them to make a roll to see if they drop it for no reason at all seems cruel and unfair.

Are there any other times in your game where characters are forced to randomly roll to see if they drop objects? Do you ever force other players to make random rolls such as this, or only the player that you have issues with?

I understand you have issues with his play style, but by randomly and spontaneously punishing him for it using DM fiat, you are also punishing the rest of the group in the process.

Grimmnist
2018-11-21, 12:44 AM
What forced him to drop it? Just wading through sand doesn't prevent someone from clutching something in their hand. After all, people wade through combat all the time without randomly dropping items. Why the sudden change in rules?


Oh it wasn't wading, sand was up to the ceiling, he was "swimming". That being said, you have a point about me unfairly punishing the group in this case. I am trying to hear how other DMs handled similar situations so in future I can give real consequences that don't derail the game or leave people unhappy.

Jaelommiss
2018-11-21, 12:48 AM
If I were a player at that game, I would object strongly to the DM dictating any sort of solution to this problem.

Problem:
In order to advance, the characters must open a locked door. The key to the door was lost in a room filled with sand as a result of the players actions.

Solution:
Let the players figure it out themselves.


The party is in a desert ruin. I will assume that they are not too close to town, have limited supplies, and no access to fresh water. If they choose to spend several days digging out the room (though at-will Mold Earth will speed things up greatly) then we generate conflict with limited resources and survival. Locate Object coupled with Mold Earth reduces this problem to a couple hours at most.

If they choose to return to town and seek professional assistance then there will be a cost associated with it.

If they choose to destroy the locked door (or the door frame, or the surrounding ceiling or wall if the door is made of reinforced railroadium) they might alert creatures that live further within the ruins.

If they choose to dig an alternate entrance (assuming this ruin is buried in sand) then they might uncover something unpleasant, or they might miss the ruin and take days to find a way in.

Even if what they choose ends up being the same as the solution you were going to hand them, they will be far more satisfied by it. The first time I responded to a player asking what they were supposed to do with "That is unfortunate. What are you going to do about it?" I got blank looks and the game stalled for a few minutes. Once they realized that they needed to solve the problem themselves they started brainstorming, chose a course of action, and carried on. For the rest of the campaign they took a far more proactive approach to problem solving, which significantly lightened my load as a DM. Being able to set up an adventure without a solution in mind beforehand makes it far easier to prepare.

As far as introducing a complication or a new problem for the players to solve if their previous actions fail, that's fine. It's one more obstacle between the players and the win condition, but that's not a bad thing. If anything obstacles arising from natural consequences tend to be more diverse and interesting than an additional combat encounter or puzzle.

Grimmnist
2018-11-21, 01:07 AM
These comments are making me realize that my issues with this player in-game and outside are preventing me from being a good DM for the group.

Well, time to either have a real talk with the player about our issues or let the group fizzle out.

Mad Nomad
2018-11-21, 04:14 AM
Oh it wasn't wading, sand was up to the ceiling, he was "swimming". That being said, you have a point about me unfairly punishing the group in this case. I am trying to hear how other DMs handled similar situations so in future I can give real consequences that don't derail the game or leave people unhappy.


These comments are making me realize that my issues with this player in-game and outside are preventing me from being a good DM for the group.

Well, time to either have a real talk with the player about our issues or let the group fizzle out.

I may be in the minority here compared to the rest of the role-playing community, but as both a player and a DM I prefer my games to be RAW and crunchy.

Think of an RPG like a nice veggie platter... Sure, the light and fluffy ranch dressing is where the flavor is, but who wants to eat just ranch dressing? You need the crunchy vegetables to help deliver the delicious ranch dressing, and there needs to be a good balance of the two. A nice sampling of cheese is good from time to time, too!

My opinion, as both a player and a DM, is that consistent rules are what makes the magic work. Random and arbitrary rules may seem like fun at the time, and add a burst of flavor in the moment, but it makes it that much more difficult for the players to plan their future actions if they have no idea what will happen or how they will be punished for making the wrong decision.

My advice is to avoid introducing random rolls that aren't supported by the rules, especially if there are significant consequences for failing them. It may seem like good cheeky fun at the time, but it's usually at someone's expense.

I've had to deal with these things as a player, and even when I wasn't the target, I did not enjoy watching someone get harrassed by the DM. Watching someone be forced to make an arbitrary Con save, and being told they vomited and soiled themselves when they failed, may seem funny to some but it was not funny to me. Watching people be penalized, often harshly, for rolling a 1 was excruciating, especially knowing there was nothing in the rules to support these malicious actions by the DM.

One person's fun, and that includes the DM, should not come at the expense of others.

Regardless of whether the problem is caused by a DM not applying the rules evenly or correctly, or by a player that disregards or does not understand the rules, my solution has always been the same. Focus on the RAW, make sure they're applied fairly and evenly to everyone, and the odds of anyone feeling singled out or picked on goes down dramatically.

As a DM, it also makes life a lot easier when the players know that bad things happen because of the rules, and not on a whim or out of spite.

Like I said earlier, I'm probably in the minority here, but I feel that the rules are what helps keep the game running smoothly, and helps everyone involved have fun.

I hope you and your group are able to find what works for you, and wish you all the best with the rest of your campaign!

Pelle
2018-11-21, 04:41 AM
These comments are making me realize that my issues with this player in-game and outside are preventing me from being a good DM for the group.

Well, time to either have a real talk with the player about our issues or let the group fizzle out.

Based on your OP, I think it looks like you just punish the player with the bad consequences.

If you can forsee that things will turn out different than what the character believes, but the player don't realize, you should warn him about it first if you think it will become problematic. You don't need to be explicit, just hint at what can maybe happen so it's an informed choice.

denthor
2018-11-21, 04:13 PM
Oh by the way for truly dramatic play does the wizard have the knock spell?

NichG
2018-11-21, 10:30 PM
It seems like this kind of problem is arising because the order of the process is reversed compared to how it should go. You shouldn't decide a choice was poor and then search for a consequence. Instead, you determine the consequences first by inspecting the elements in play, and by doing so discover whether the choice was poor.

Of course the choice to spring the trap was poor, because of the consequence of being in a room quickly filling with sand. But the choice of using Mold Earth wasn't poor for causing items to be lost, it was poor because it should have zero effect. Saying that it works but then tacking on an unrelated cost means that now there isn't really a way to draw a direct line of cause and effect from that point on. They lost the key because of a metagame devil's bargain with the GM: you should die, but if you accept then I'll take half of your loot instead.

It'd be better at that moment to say 'Mold Earth doesn't work that way and your character would know that, what do you do instead?'

The Jack
2018-11-23, 05:10 PM
You screwed up You should have either ruled that he couldnt, and killed him for trying, or ruled that he could (maybe a skill check for structural soundness might have been used) . if he was actively using mold earth he couldn't really 'drop the key' Way I see it, if he came back after the place was filled, mold earth would have certaintly worked wonders. You sound mad because your elaborate/contrived trap that you thought would be cool/clever/fun was going to be undermined... almost quite literally, by a player getting wise . While they player could have done better, you should have done better.