Gods in a Magic Free Campaign

[HisDirkness]

I'm going to be DMing a custom campaign in which magic was lost from the world (at least from general knowledge, some select groups have preserved it). My players rediscover it early on, but outside of them magic is mostly absent from the world.

Originally I was going to have this be a godless world, with magic being more of an elemental or cosmic force in the universe, like mana or something of that ilk.

My issue is that one of my players loves the gods and their lore and the role playing aspect and possible interactions with gods and all that and while my initial vision was no gods, I don't want to take out one of his favorite parts of the game.

Any of y'all have any tips or thoughts on how I could preserve my intent while including gods? All I've come up with so far is that the gods pulled back from the material plane after the gal of magic. I suppose that could work, but I was wondering if anyone had something more clever.

Please and thank you.

[Tawmis]

My issue is that one of my players loves the gods and their lore and the role playing aspect and possible interactions with gods and all that and while my initial vision was no gods, I don't want to take out one of his favorite parts of the game.


Yeesh, how often does this player get a chance for his character to interacts with gods, that they love it that much? :smallconfused:

I'd ask the player in question, to give you a chance to see if they love the world you've devised without gods.

And who knows, maybe further down the line, you do a story where the gods had been banished and it's up to the players, who have been channeling the magic to open a portal to return the god to the heavens.

[ImproperJustice]

Once ran in a campaign in a world where the God(s) of that world had forsaken it due to a sacred artifact being broken and forgotten about.

The Cleric in the group was part of a sect that remembered pieces of the legend, and as we traveled about the world he met members of other faiths who each had their own piece of the legend.

It eventually became a major side mission to take up the quest to put all the pieces of the legend together and adventure to restore the lost relic.

As we got closer and closer to the goal, more and more of a spiritual awakening began to take place in the land (both good and bad), and it coincided with our Cleric’s rise to power.

I remember it being really exciting because we felt like we were having such a global impact.
The trials were great too, our GM was very creative and most required solutions reflective of the various aspects of the deity involved. Which also required a pretty high attention to detail on our part.
I remember us passing a combat challenge with a unique Solar General by simply praying to the deity itself and asking it to tell his general to step aside.
(The theme of the challenge was sovereignty.)

Overall, it was a great questline, and not required for the campaign. It was a sandbox world that this particular GM had built over 30 some odd years, and we were the first group to successfuly stumble on, persue it, and complete it.

Anywho. Long rambling post, but maybe there is something useful in there?

[TripleD]

Keep it ambiguous. Have the cleric interpret his god’s will through “signs”. Shape of clouds, staring into a flame, throwing bones, etc. It’s not clear if they are actually talking to them or it’s all hooey. The great thing is that as the DM you can enforce “coincidence” that up the ambiguity.

[HisDirkness]

Yeesh, how often does this player get a chance for his character to interacts with gods, that they love it that much? :smallconfused:

That was just one example. He loves playing clerics and paladins and he likes how his god of choice informs his characters outlook and actions.

I'm thinking I'll include religion and temples and all the usual godlike fare, minus any sort of divine intervention.

[Gastronomie]

In a campaign I'm in as a player, due to a magical disaster, the gods have fallen from the heavens and are now roaming the material plane, though they look like normal people on first glance. They generally act as quest-givers for our party.

Could be one way to go.

[Tawmis]

That was just one example. He loves playing clerics and paladins and he likes how his god of choice informs his characters outlook and actions.

I'm thinking I'll include religion and temples and all the usual godlike fare, minus any sort of divine intervention.

Just make it so that Clerics and Paladins, rather than being Holy Warriors of gods and goddesses - that they worship the ability to channel magic instead.

And Magic speaks to their "Holy Warriors" the way a song speaks to someone. They hear words in their head, that is actually just the magic in the air.

You could even give the Magic representation, similar to Dragonlance - where the Moons represented Good, Evil and Neutral.

Take it one step further, if you really want to get into it - and which ever moon is the fullest, that school of "Worship" does 1d4 bonus damage (or healing).

Depends how crazy you want to get with it.

Or just tell your player, "Listen, I am the DM and there's no gods - for now." :smallwink:

[CantigThimble]

I mean, our world never needed miracles on tap to come up with all sorts of religions, it stands to reason that there would be religions in this world too. Hell, as a player I've straight up invented religions before. As long as you're not a cleric there's no reason that wouldn't work.

[Unoriginal]

Yeah, just tell your player "sorry, but there are no actual gods in this setting".

There is still religions, perhaps, so there could still be god lore, but no Big Boss Deity on top of it.

[Tiamatwing]

Assuming magic once was widespread, perhaps once magic started to fade people began to wonder if the gods had been killed or left existence, so worship outside a few fanatical core groups eventually died out among the average population.
Now with the party cleric/paladin perhaps much like one of the biblical prophets he has received a vision and quest from an emergent or returning god to restore said god, if not all the gods, to power and spread the word of their return.

[MoiMagnus]

I'm going to be DMing a custom campaign in which magic was lost from the world (at least from general knowledge, some select groups have preserved it). My players rediscover it early on, but outside of them magic is mostly absent from the world.

Originally I was going to have this be a godless world, with magic being more of an elemental or cosmic force in the universe, like mana or something of that ilk.

My issue is that one of my players loves the gods and their lore and the role playing aspect and possible interactions with gods and all that and while my initial vision was no gods, I don't want to take out one of his favorite parts of the game.

Any of y'all have any tips or thoughts on how I could preserve my intent while including gods? All I've come up with so far is that the gods pulled back from the material plane after the gal of magic. I suppose that could work, but I was wondering if anyone had something more clever.

Please and thank you.

Suggestion 1:
Unless your world is technologically advanced (and to be fair, even if that's the case), mythologies and legends will exists. Some people will believe them. Other won't. And nobody really know if they are true or false.
Which mean that even if gods do no exists, you can have a pantheon, lore related to gods, church and religions, ...
It's just that nobody really know if they exists of not.
You can even have some powerful magic entities that "are mostly gods", but misinterpreted by religions, and much less powerful than "gods" as described in legends. Though they frequently act "as if they were the real gods" when interacting with mortals. They can even be mortals (seeking an heir to replace them as "gods")

Suggestion 2:
Gods are just some great ancestors, and "live" in the land of the dead. Soul of the dead are organized in factions (mostly according to race, family and alignments), and gods are just the chief of the factions (but souls like any other).
People obey their principle because they don't want to be trough out of the faction of their family after death.
In exchange, the dead try to help their fellow heir with some magical power.

Suggestion 3:
Gods no longer exists. They were destroyed during what is called "the collapse". They knew the collapse would happen, and they knew they was no way for them to survive to it. So most of them decided to break time and space (which is the cause of the collapse, by the way) in order to influence the future in which they no longer exist.
Which mean that the followers of a god are interacting with him "just before his death", when he tries to shape the world that will exist without him.
(Some gods try to shape the world to their principles, while others try to find a way to break the fate and be brought back to life, ...)

Suggestion 4:
Reverse of the suggestion 2. The gods don't YET exists, but try to influence their past in order to prevent some gods from existing, and to secure their existence.

[lordarkness]

One hook that works in our world is to essentially hold the afterlife hostage. If your actions in life determine what happens to you after you die then any type of faith from a casual token adherence to outright zealotry can be justified. Any ethos can likewise fit. Real world actions from sacrifices to vows of celibacy are viable as well.

No magic required.

[darknite]

I don't recall much active magic accessed by mortals in Classical Greek mythology, though there were gods-a-plenty. You pretty much spin the PCs from being imbued agents of the gods into being the pawns & playthings of the gods. The occasional boon, charm or blessing might be given by the gods for pleasing them, or accomplishing something they want done. Magic items and mortal-cast magic would be very rare, with magic being limited to rituals.

[Vogie]

Originally I was going to have this be a godless world, with magic being more of an elemental or cosmic force in the universe, like mana or something of that ilk.

My issue is that one of my players loves the gods and their lore and the role playing aspect and possible interactions with gods and all that and while my initial vision was no gods, I don't want to take out one of his favorite parts of the game.

Any of y'all have any tips or thoughts on how I could preserve my intent while including gods? All I've come up with so far is that the gods pulled back from the material plane after the gal of magic. I suppose that could work, but I was wondering if anyone had something more clever.


I think that's a cool idea, and something to follow. Instead of having a pantheon of gods, maybe the styles of magic are tied to the outer planes, something almost elemental and cosmic.

The easiest way to do this is by having some sort of balance, such as using elemental planes, the Magic: The Gathering's 5 colors of magic, or the 10 colors of light in Brent Weeks' Lightbringer pentalogy (Superviolet, Blue, Green, Yellow, Orange, Red, Sub-red, Paryl, White, & Black).

Once you have that balance, you can then create avatars of the balance in a sort of pantheon, each of which has varying levels of manifestation or interest into the plane. Some may manifest a lot, others may not at all. Some may have intelligence, while others may be animalistic forces of nature.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm going to be DMing a custom campaign in which magic was lost from the world (at least from general knowledge, some select groups have preserved it). My players rediscover it early on, but outside of them magic is mostly absent from the world.

Originally I was going to have this be a godless world, with magic being more of an elemental or cosmic force in the universe, like mana or something of that ilk.

My issue is that one of my players loves the gods and their lore and the role playing aspect and possible interactions with gods and all that and while my initial vision was no gods, I don't want to take out one of his favorite parts of the game.

Any of y'all have any tips or thoughts on how I could preserve my intent while including gods? All I've come up with so far is that the gods pulled back from the material plane after the gal of magic. I suppose that could work, but I was wondering if anyone had something more clever.

Please and thank you.
DMG, pages 10-13. Forces and Philosophies for Divine casters. You can avoid gods if you like.

Any of y'all have any tips or thoughts on how I could preserve my intent while including gods? Make it part of the campaign.
Your character has a life/career long quest to, by level 20, re establish that connection between gods and the world. At least, his/her deity. Bit by bit, a little at a time, at each or at every other level, a slight bit more 'god/gods' leaks back into the world if the Character does stuff in character to open those little portals to those planes ...

See also: elemental sources of magic.

[Man_Over_Game]

Canonically, the Gods interfered with so much stuff in 3.5 that Ao (effectively THE God) got mad and broke everything and put all of the Gods in time-out. Which is why players in 4E were so overpowered: because power was handed over to the mortals rather than the Gods. Now in 5E, either the Gods have found some sort of loophole over the last few generations to let their power start seeping through (as is the case with Tiamat and the Dragon Hoard scenarios), or they've started to learn their lesson and started to take things slowly, which is why Gods are SLIGHTLY relevant, but not as important (as is the case with Paladins vs. prior editions).

No joke, this is all very canon stuff. You could try to implement something similar. Maybe your world is in Stage 2 (as is with 4th Edition), and this character is trying to make it more like Stage 3 (5th Edition) through obscure messages he's receiving from a God of Knowledge, Change, Growth or Piety. Or maybe they're all working together to send out scraps of information to various different "agents" who all are working separately towards the same goal.

[Honest Tiefling]

Maybe imbuing mortals with magic had really bad consequences. Caused quite a few to blow up and a few others to grow some tentacles from their face and others still turned into rampaging insane demigods unable to contain their power. Over all, didn't go very well.

So they were there the entire time, but really couldn't act through mortals.

However, he doesn't just discover magic. He discovers a way to communicate with the gods without the bad stuff happening. His religion doesn't shape his own beliefs...His beliefs shape the religion as he is now tasked with starting a religion to the god. Of course, some people might be skeptics or those who feel that godly power will warp him, no matter what and want to kill him. Others will worship him as a god (and the god might not appreciate this) or take his words and bend them to their own twisted means.

[Rixitichil]

I recommend considering the Eberron route.
Religions exist, some have gods and all have different philosophies on how to live your life. Have divine magic as trinkling back into the world with the other magics, but only accessable to those with powerful beliefs.
If you add in angels and fiends to your setting, have them equally in the dark as to whether deities actually exist.

The question of how religious orders react to people performing miracles should be an interesting one. Do they ordain them as priests? Should they outrank those who don't have magical ability? What do we do when a Performer of miracles turns out to have deeply heretical beliefs?

[Spore]

Heads up, I am a bit of an evil bastard.

But offer your world plenty of religions. Some are made up, others serve real gods. Some get the credo of their god wrong, some get the credo of a completely different god right but call it other. Ask the target player to play a pious character that could even invoke divine spells. Tell them to make up a religion on the spot, with 1-3 aspects and deities to be worshipped. Give him a side quest to unveil the origin of his power. Secret cults have never seen something like him. They don't know his brand of magic (divine). Have him ultimatively uncover - via a powerful diviner or otherwise - that there are no gods. Really smash him down with it.

But then build him back up. No gods does not have to mean no religion. His willpower made magic real. His rules of conduct where always there. HE made the magic real. His conviction, purity of will etc. There is no mysterious space person guiding your will. It is you alone. But if you want to organize and reteach what you have learned, you still can.

tl;dr: He still can have divine magic, and still have a religion, even without gods. It works in other fantasy settings too.

As a loose basis for my talking, I take the setting of Gothic (old german computer game trilogy). The world had "gods" named Beliar, Adanos and Innos. All these entities did was create strife and conflict. So the hero of the games banishes them. Innos and Adanos (god of inner fire and light as well as wisdom and balance) had active religions, Beliar (god of evil and chaos) only had hermit mages serving him. Factually all of these were wizards, fighters or (in Innos' case) Paladins.

tl;dr: Not having deities does not mean you can't have organised religion or divine spells. :)

[JackPhoenix]

Canonically, the Gods interfered with so much stuff in 3.5 that Ao (effectively THE God) got mad and broke everything and put all of the Gods in time-out. Which is why players in 4E were so overpowered: because power was handed over to the mortals rather than the Gods. Now in 5E, either the Gods have found some sort of loophole over the last few generations to let their power start seeping through (as is the case with Tiamat and the Dragon Hoard scenarios), or they've started to learn their lesson and started to take things slowly, which is why Gods are SLIGHTLY relevant, but not as important (as is the case with Paladins vs. prior editions).

Nah. 4e happened because Mystra got killed (again) messing up how magic work and the gods did all sort of divine crap while Ao didn't give a damn. 5e happened when Ao finally decided enough is enough and enforced the return to previous status quo.