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View Full Version : Wizard and Beguiler - "Hey, those are my toes."



Delta Nu Delta
2007-09-20, 10:57 AM
I'm just about to start a new game at level one. I'll be playing a wizard and another player will be a beguiler. Looking at the beguiler's spell list, I was struck by A) How awesome it is and B) How it takes an awful lot of great spells from the wizard list.

Now, I don't have much experience playing an arcane caster, and I have none with two in the party. My question, for anyone who has some experience with this, is are we going to be stepping on each other's toes? Will either of us feel redundant?

Thanks in advance!

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2007-09-20, 11:05 AM
Depends where the Wizard is going, really. The Beguiler's spells tend towards Enchantment and Illusion, thus they can command a slightly different playstyle. If the Wizard prefers Evocations or Conjurations or Necromancy, there's really little worry. In fact, the two can compliment each other. The Beguiler can use spells so the Wizard needn't worry about them. It will help the Wizard narrow down his list.

Person_Man
2007-09-20, 11:10 AM
Wizard + Beguiler makes for an excellent tag team. You can completely ignore most enchantment and toolbox spells, and instead focus on summoning, battlefield control, and blasting. The Beguiler is much better at enchantment + toolbox, but can never do the other things that you can excel at.

Galathir
2007-09-20, 11:13 AM
Wizard and Beguiler make an excellent team. The Beguiler has amazing mind-control abilities and is an excellent party face but suffers a little in the utility spell department. Also a Beguiler can have difficulty dealing damage on the rare occasions where it is necessary. A wizard with some conjuration and evocation will make a nice contrast.

tannish2
2007-09-20, 11:13 AM
i play in caster heavy partys, and ive gotta say that multiple arcane casters KICKS ASS. you can focus on your favorite aspects of your class and let the other guy do his ****, make sure both of you have at least 1 battlefield controll ready each day and make sure you know where your territory is, so that theres not too much redundancy.

Reinboom
2007-09-20, 11:19 AM
If you have the spell compendium or other splat books of which to derive spells from - mind that the beguiler list is also PHB and PHB2 only. Other than the bit they could get from advanced learning, the wizard has the more vast selection.
Mind the beguiler doesn't get things like teleportation or disintergrate, among other classic or powerful spells.
- Oh, and a bit of stepping is ok, in case one of you fail at something. (Such as ensuring you have a dispel magic/great) or things that would be better if multiple users can do them at once (greater invisibility).

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2007-09-20, 11:21 AM
Essentially, the Beguiler makes a good "fifth member." He helps the Wizard and the Rogue specialize by filling roles either class occasionally has to fill.

AKA_Bait
2007-09-20, 11:25 AM
Essentially, the Beguiler makes a good "fifth member." He helps the Wizard and the Rogue specialize by filling roles either class occasionally has to fill.

Frankly, with both a Beguiler and Wizard, you can pretty much just fire the rogue.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-20, 11:29 AM
Frankly, with both a Beguiler and Wizard, you can pretty much just fire the rogue.

...and hire a Spellthief, since they can borrow spells from their compatriots. "Howdy, guv'na. Mind if ah borrah that them there spell y'ain't usin'? Shore could use me a good ol' pick me up." *borrows tongues* "Ah, that's better. Now I can enunciate without dislocating my jaw. Victory is mine--and yours, for you ears will not run red with wine-colored blood whenever I speak aloud."

AKA_Bait
2007-09-20, 11:31 AM
...and hire a Spellthief, since they can borrow spells from their compatriots. "Howdy, guv'na. Mind if ah borrah that them there spell y'ain't usin'? Shore could use me a good ol' pick me up." *borrows tongues* "Ah, that's better. Now I can enunciate without dislocating my jaw. Victory is mine--and yours, for you ears will not run red with wine-colored blood whenever I speak aloud."

Now I kinda want to play a sneaky party of Wizard, Beguiler, Spell Theif and Warlock...

Edea
2007-09-20, 11:32 AM
This is the PERFECT opportunity to grab a school specialization.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-20, 11:50 AM
I wouldn't even worry about a party with two wizards in it. The class is diverse enough to allow that. Unlike some classes I won't mention here :smallbiggrin:

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2007-09-20, 12:38 PM
Frankly, with both a Beguiler and Wizard, you can pretty much just fire the rogue.

Well, a rogue is still good as a Trap-Disarming Monkey. And for full body cavity searches.

Actually, an Awakened Monkey Rogue may be a good character for me next time.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-20, 12:41 PM
Well, a rogue is still good as a Trap-Disarming Monkey.

Beguiler gets both Trapfinding and Disable Device as a class skill.

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2007-09-20, 12:42 PM
True, but who would you rather throw at a trap? Rogue with low Cha or Beguiler with high? :smallbiggrin:

Fax Celestis
2007-09-20, 12:56 PM
True, but who would you rather throw at a trap? Rogue with low Cha or Beguiler with high? :smallbiggrin:

Despite being spontaneous, Beguilers are Int-casters.

mostlyharmful
2007-09-20, 01:10 PM
I've always been fond of a herd of a hundred sheep for the trap springing element of the party, also the filling up wandering monsters so they don't eat us role and the celebrateory roast mutton after the dungeon crawl.

Nothing blows a big raspberry at a BBEG faster than having all his hard work and planning derailed by fourty tons of bleeting mutton in the face.:smallsmile:

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2007-09-20, 01:22 PM
Despite being spontaneous, Beguilers are Int-casters.

Curse your Vulcan logic!! *shakes fist*

Mike_G
2007-09-20, 01:30 PM
I'm just about to start a new game at level one. I'll be playing a wizard and another player will be a beguiler. Looking at the beguiler's spell list, I was struck by A) How awesome it is and B) How it takes an awful lot of great spells from the wizard list.

Now, I don't have much experience playing an arcane caster, and I have none with two in the party. My question, for anyone who has some experience with this, is are we going to be stepping on each other's toes? Will either of us feel redundant?

Thanks in advance!

The Beguiler is very good at what he does, but limited in focus. If you specialize in Enchantment and Illusion spells, yes, one of you will be redundant.

As a Wizard, you have free access to any Arcane spell, so load up on the spells that do what the Beguiler can't.

Delta Nu Delta
2007-09-20, 02:51 PM
As a Wizard, you have free access to any Arcane spell, so load up on the spells that do what the Beguiler can't.

Ho Ho! Magic Missle, here I come! (Just kidding.)

Thanks for the feedback, I feel much better about this now.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-09-21, 12:57 AM
One nice build is going Beguiler - 1 with the Precocious Apprentice feat followed by a level as a Specialist wizard - 1 and going Master specialist for 3 levels before going Ultimate Magus with the Practiced Spellcaster feat on the Beguiler side to advance the wizard side. The Beguiler side gives your wizard side spell selection a lot of cushion with that large known spell list and many useful spells including fueling meta magic better than most standard spellcasters.

You can get more powerful spontaneous casting with builds incorporating the Nar Demonbinder or Sublime Chord PRC.

Starsinger
2007-09-21, 01:53 AM
Remember, as the wizard, it's your job to ensure you don't step on the Beguiler's toes. After all, the Beguiler doesn't have a comprehensive and versatile list of spells to choose from, you do.

TheOOB
2007-09-21, 02:10 AM
Remember that the beguiler fills the same party role as the rogue, and really they play better with wizards then rogues do. Wizards tend to work best with other spellcasters, while the limitations of non spellcasters can oftentimes be more of an inconvenience then anything else. Just make sure the wizard focuses on all the other schools of magic, taking only whatever enchantment and illusion spells they need (like many of the defensive illusions).

Kurald Galain
2007-09-21, 02:41 AM
One nice build is going Beguiler - 1 with the Precocious Apprentice feat followed by a level as a Specialist wizard - 1 and going Master specialist for 3 levels

Okay, I get the Ultimate Magus bit, but how is the Master Specialist going to help? SF:Spellcraft isn't that big a deal, and the school you want that Greater Spell Focus in is enchantment for the Beguiler, except that it must be your specialist school, and being a Beguiler/Enchanter doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

OTOH, I'd say Beguiler/1 - Conjurer/4 - Ultimate Magus is an interesting and solid build, particularly if you are allowed the Abrupt Jaunt ability.

Aside from that, does Precocious Apprentice really work that way? I seem to recall that it doesn't.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-09-21, 09:41 AM
Okay, I get the Ultimate Magus bit, but how is the Master Specialist going to help? SF:Spellcraft isn't that big a deal, and the school you want that Greater Spell Focus in is enchantment for the Beguiler, except that it must be your specialist school, and being a Beguiler/Enchanter doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

OTOH, I'd say Beguiler/1 - Conjurer/4 - Ultimate Magus is an interesting and solid build, particularly if you are allowed the Abrupt Jaunt ability.

Aside from that, does Precocious Apprentice really work that way? I seem to recall that it doesn't.

Reading the various boards it is pretty much a given each game interprets some of the rules a little differently. One game premise is that the PCs have a basic understanding of what they will need to do in game to enter a PRC in the future when they level up. Another is PCs get limited skill and feat choices in game.

The primary benefit of a Master Specialist dip for a few levels is meeting other PRC feat requirements at higher levels and picking up a few bennies for normally dead level specials and only losing enhancing your familiar for this.

Just because some people don't consider Archmage a viable build at some point in game doesn't mean other people don't enjoy playing them or other PRCs.

If your PC doesn't take a familiar he loses very little mechanically depending on the build direction.

One path is going Specialist Wizard with Spell Focus and Precocious Apprentice at first level as a human or with a flaw if you think that makes more sense in game and taking a level of Beguiler at second level. Then go Master Specialist for 3 levels before entering the Ultimate Magus PRC.

Taking the Master Specialist PRC for 3 levels in your Specialist wizard class gives the PC Skill Focus Spellcraft, Expanded Spellbook (Nice in a tight spell game) and Greater Spell Focus which can be nice for meeting some PRC requirements later in the game for normally dead levels in game. The only thing your PC loses is improving his familiar for PRCing and the chance to take other feats.

You need to be a Specialist wizard with 5 ranks in arcana and spellcraft with a Spell Focus feat and being able to CAST 2nd level ARCANE SPELLS to enter Master Specialist normally at level 4. (It doesn't say that the spellcasting has to be in your Specialist wizard class)

IMO taking the Precocious Apprentice meets the Master Specialist requirement for earlier entry at level 3 instead of the normal entry at level 4 as per Ask Wizards for standard entry:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061116a

IMO it is better to use Precocious Apprentice on the Beguiler class at level 1 for a level 2 Enchantment or Illusion spell as per Advanced Learning special feature of the class to meet the PRC requirements for Master Specialist at later levels which you will be enhancing your Specialist caster class with.

If it doesn't meet the Master Specialist PRC requirement in someon'e campaign then the build isn't a viable option since the purpose is mostly to pick up a few feats over basically dead levels and to meet feat prerequisites for some PRCs.

In a leveling up campaign from first level going Beguiler first generally increases PC survivability with maxed D6 hitpoints and wearing Light armor with No ASF (Your PC might not take a hit and if he does he might survive it), having a few better weapon choices, and 16 extra skill points over a standard level 1 wizard while being able to cast 14 level 1 spells spontaneous (Color Spray and Sleep are nice choices for surviving the first few combats).

At second level when you go Specialist wizard you cast lots of spells comparable to a standard level 2 wizard. Have those 14 level one spontaneous casting spells to tweak your Specialist wizard side spell options. You can cast spells in combat as a Beguiler in light armor with No ASF. You can always risk ASF for your Specialist side spells in combat or remove your armor for non combat situations and casting Specialist spells until you gain a few levels and some wealth in game.

Shatenjager
2007-09-21, 09:56 AM
Yeah, I wouldn't worry about any overlap. Just make sure you aren't the Enchanty type Wizard. I pretty much see the beguiler as filling the Rogue and Face slots really, as opposed to the caster slot.

Besides if the beguiler can get his Bluff check high enough he can convince you that those are in fact his toes. (It's only like a -20.)

Kurald Galain
2007-09-21, 10:05 AM
IMO taking the Precocious Apprentice meets the Master Specialist requirement for earlier entry at level 3 instead of the normal entry at level 4 as per Ask Wizards for standard entry:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061116a


That's not what it says. It says that a 3rd level character can qualify for MS under the normal entry, taking his 4th level in that presclass. There is no "earlier entry" mentioned there (or anywhere else that I can find). You're suggesting an entry after level 1, which at the least does not fit with the RAI.

According to the Wizards forum, it is technically legal, but most DMs would veto it. Also, following the technicality, once any of your classses gets to cast true 2nd level spells, the PA feat becomes a spell slot for that spell, thus in essence disqualifying yourself for the MS.

Ymmv.

Raolin_Fenix
2007-09-21, 11:33 AM
I'd recommend specializing in Divination, dropping Illusion (if you can handle losing Mirror Image) or Enchantment. Maybe even go with Incantatrix, and drop both. Then you can use the Beguiler to do a lot of the things on the Batman list, while you handle the divinations and the destruction. Your doors are open now to playing the much-shunned Blaster Mage.

Kaelik
2007-09-21, 12:15 PM
Also, following the technicality, once any of your classses gets to cast true 2nd level spells, the PA feat becomes a spell slot for that spell, thus in essence disqualifying yourself for the MS.

Ummm...? Why? You would still be able to cast 2nd level spells the whole time since level one. I don't see how one of those spell slots changing would disqualify you. The question is, Can you cast 2nd level Arcane Spells? The answer is yes.

I'm not saying that a DM couldn't disallow it. But the list of things a DM can't disallow is pretty short indeed.

Telonius
2007-09-21, 01:25 PM
I'd recommend specializing in Divination, dropping Illusion (if you can handle losing Mirror Image) or Enchantment.

You don't necessarily have to go without the benefits of Mirror Image. It's on the Beguiler spell list, so all you'd have to do is cooperate on a Scroll (or if you have the craft feats, Wand or Wondrous Widget) of Mirror Images. The price should be low enough.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-21, 03:28 PM
Ummm...? Why? You would still be able to cast 2nd level spells the whole time since level one.

Well, I don't have the book with me right now, but that's what they said on the Wizards forum.

(edit) Ah, there you go (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-339046). WOTC netrep says you can't, because it's not RAI; in explanation, you can't consistently and successfully cast 2nd-level spells, because you're "reaching" with that caster level check.

Jacob Orlove
2007-09-21, 03:37 PM
You don't necessarily have to go without the benefits of Mirror Image. It's on the Beguiler spell list, so all you'd have to do is cooperate on a Scroll (or if you have the craft feats, Wand or Wondrous Widget) of Mirror Images. The price should be low enough.
If you specialize, banning Illusion, you won't be able to use Scrolls or Wands of any Illusion spells, including Mirror Image.

Kaelik
2007-09-21, 04:43 PM
Well, I don't have the book with me right now, but that's what they said on the Wizards forum.

(edit) Ah, there you go (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-339046). WOTC netrep says you can't, because it's not RAI; in explanation, you can't consistently and successfully cast 2nd-level spells, because you're "reaching" with that caster level check.

I think you were confusing the debate about using Precocious Apprentice to get into Mystic Theurge. In that case, according to a strict interpretation your slot would become a second level divine slot and you would no longer be able to qualify.

Yes RAI (the stupidest thing I've ever heard of) it isn't allowed. Because they didn't realize it lead to faster PrC progression until it after it was written. And so they decided that it couldn't be used that way since they hadn't thought of it.

Of course in reality. There is RAW which is nebulous enough, and then there is common sense, and then there is the DM. Ultimately whatever Wizards says it should always be an option presented to your DM for okaying and I would personally encourage my players to use it as such.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-21, 05:25 PM
Yes RAI (the stupidest thing I've ever heard of)

You think RAI is stupid? RAW is the one that lets dead characters keep walking around, and that lets people heal themselves by sticking their head in a bucket, and so forth...

CASTLEMIKE
2007-09-21, 05:27 PM
Yes RAI (the stupidest thing I've ever heard of) it isn't allowed. Because they didn't realize it lead to faster PrC progression until it after it was written. And so they decided that it couldn't be used that way since they hadn't thought of it.

Of course in reality. There is RAW which is nebulous enough, and then there is common sense, and then there is the DM. Ultimately whatever Wizards says it should always be an option presented to your DM for okaying and I would personally encourage my players to use it as such.


I have to agree. Somehow the decades the designer's who are supposed to understand the game mechanics and how the classes work keep "accidentally" slipping these little mistakes into the game year after year.

Kaelik
2007-09-21, 05:46 PM
You think RAI is stupid? RAW is the one that lets dead characters keep walking around, and that lets people heal themselves by sticking their head in a bucket, and so forth...

I think that talking about RAI is a waste of time since every game and every person interprets things differently. RAW at least can theoretically exist as a complete set that is exactly the same no matter who is looking at it.

RAI is different for everyone. RAI cannot exist without a DM to do said interpreting. And then it is different for every DM.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-09-21, 06:00 PM
Well, I don't have the book with me right now, but that's what they said on the Wizards forum.

(edit) Ah, there you go (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-339046). WOTC netrep says you can't, because it's not RAI; in explanation, you can't consistently and successfully cast 2nd-level spells, because you're "reaching" with that caster level check.

Skill rank requirements are very hard to defeat without DM approval (Things like Mortally Possessed by a Power will do it as per Dieties and Demigods of course you lose the benefit if you stop being possessed (Need a long term Celestial Rider).

Master Specialist is a Specialist Wizard PRC. IMO if Wizard's really didn't want any wiggle room for early entry into the PRC it would have at least one single skill rank requirement of 6 in arcana or spellcraft not the two skill ranks of 5 or a note that Precocious Apprentice isn't sufficient for earlier entry into the PRC.

I just want to have a little fun. Lots of options now in game. Using the Precocious Apprentice feat to enter Master Specialist a level earlier than normal shouldn't be a problem in most campaigns. If you can't do it in a game it's easy to make another PC.

I usually draw the line at the source book. To my knowledge the designers don't get to slip their work in sight unseen without review in the publishing process. Material gets cut along with editing and proof reading by people familiar with the game mechanics before the gaming material is published. I believe a lot of the slip ups like this are deliberate since they help sell new product.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-22, 04:39 AM
I think that talking about RAI is a waste of time since every game and every person interprets things differently.

RAI stands for "Rules as intended", not "interpreted".

Kaelik
2007-09-22, 04:46 AM
RAI stands for "Rules as intended", not "interpreted".

Really? Then slightly less useless. My mistake. Of course it still seems somewhat silly since the actual rules don't mean anything if WotC just disallows things because they didn't realize they could be done.

Things like Pun-Pun, or DMM Persistent Spell are what make this game what it is. Rules systems are meant to be exploited. Just because the level of exploitation is limited in real play doesn't mean that those things should be stopped.

Zincorium
2007-09-22, 04:47 AM
Aye. While it's difficult to know exactly what the rules were intended to do, Wotc does seem more open now to revealing that, what with the interviews and all.

Basically, it comes down to these rules: The designers did not intend to break the game or cause the game to be broken. They did not intend anything to be useless on a technicality. While this may not always be the case, they should be used as the basis of interpretation.

All people are capable of imagining or assimilating multiple interpretations of something. Anything which is by one interpretation way too powerful and by another just fine should probably be adjucated using the latter. By the same logic, anything which would become utterly useless if rules are read a certain way most likely indicate the rules were not intended to read that way.

Rules which are either overpowered or useless are poorly designed and should either be not used or replaced with a similar but acceptable feat.

Ramza00
2007-09-22, 12:53 PM
remember the beguiler has UMD thus he can UMD your wizard scrolls, or a runestaff full of wizard only spells to increase his versality or if something bad happened to you.

Renegade Paladin
2007-09-22, 01:13 PM
One nice build is going Beguiler - 1 with the Precocious Apprentice feat followed by a level as a Specialist wizard - 1 and going Master specialist for 3 levels before going Ultimate Magus with the Practiced Spellcaster feat on the Beguiler side to advance the wizard side. The Beguiler side gives your wizard side spell selection a lot of cushion with that large known spell list and many useful spells including fueling meta magic better than most standard spellcasters.

You can get more powerful spontaneous casting with builds incorporating the Nar Demonbinder or Sublime Chord PRC.
What part of this actually relates to the situation at hand? He's asking about two characters, one a wizard and the other a beguiler, not about multiclassing wizard and beguiler.