Simulacrum and True Polymorph

[darknite]

What's your opinion? Can a Simulacrum that has been True Polymorphed have healing spells cast on it? Does it disappear when the original Simulacrum caster casts Simulacrum again?

[JackPhoenix]

Yes. Creature under True Polymorph assumes all statistics of the polymorphed form, including creature type. As it's no longer construct, it can be healed by any appropriate spell.

It'll still disappear if you cast Simulacrum again or dispel it. That's the result of the active spell, irrespective of the stat block it uses.

[nickl_2000]

Does a Simulacrum have a CR? Because if it doesn't then it couldn't be True Polymorphed since it would be a creature to creature transformation.

[darknite]

Does a Simulacrum have a CR? Because if it doesn't then it couldn't be True Polymorphed since it would be a creature to creature transformation.

Per the Simulacrum spell in the PH...

The duplicate is a creature, partially real and formed from ice or snow, and it can take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any equipment. Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates.

So it's a creature that has a level (a statistic of the creature it duplicates, along with spell casting ability, etc), so the creature-to-creature feature of True Polymorph should work just fine.

[Keravath]

1) Simulacrum creates a creature:
"The duplicate is a creature"
"The simulacrum is friendly to you and creatures you designate."
Note: It states the "simulacrum is friendly" not the creature.

2) True polymorph can affect a creature or non-magical object.
"Choose one creature or nonmagical object"
A simulacrum is a creature and is certainly not a "nonmagical object" though there could be an argument that it is a magical object as well as a creature.

"You transform the creature into a different creature"

"If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the transformation becomes permanent"

"The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality"

It retains alignment and personality but NOT memories or other aspects of the creature.

----------------

Two situations
You true polymorph a simulacrum
1) ... it becomes the new creature (it is no longer a simulacrum) ... if it is reduced to 0 hit points within one hour it reverts to being a simulacrum.

2) ... it becomes a new creature (it is no longer a simulacrum) ... if concentration is maintained for the hour it becomes the new creature permanently.

However, the new creature is NOT a simulacrum so it does not follow your orders. It only retains alignment and personality so it will not remember you or your party members but may be more kindly disposed to helping or assisting them if they need it.

So I would say that yes you could heal it, no it wouldn't disappear if you cast another simulacrum since it isn't a simulacrum anymore (it has become the new creature) and since it is not a simulacrum, none of the other restrictions of the spell apply either including the section on following orders.

[darknite]

...

2) True polymorph can affect a creature or non-magical object.
"Choose one creature or nonmagical object"
A simulacrum is a creature and is certainly not a "nonmagical object" though there could be an argument that it is a magical object as well as a creature.

"You transform the creature into a different creature"

"If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the transformation becomes permanent"

"The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality"

It retains alignment and personality but NOT memories or other aspects of the creature.

----------------

Two situations
You true polymorph a simulacrum
1) ... it becomes the new creature (it is no longer a simulacrum) ... if it is reduced to 0 hit points within one hour it reverts to being a simulacrum.

2) ... it becomes a new creature (it is no longer a simulacrum) ... if concentration is maintained for the hour it becomes the new creature permanently.

However, the new creature is NOT a simulacrum so it does not follow your orders. It only retains alignment and personality so it will not remember you or your party members but may be more kindly disposed to helping or assisting them if they need it.

So I would say that yes you could heal it, no it wouldn't disappear if you cast another simulacrum since it isn't a simulacrum anymore (it has become the new creature) and since it is not a simulacrum, none of the other restrictions of the spell apply either including the section on following orders.

Does that restriction apply if the Wizard cast True Polymorph on themselves? The Wizard wouldn't remember their party members? By this argument TP'ing into an Adult Red Dragon would result in the Wizard/Dragon attacking the party. Actually, they wouldn't remember casting TP and hence couldn't sustain concentration since they wouldn't know that they had to.

I take personality as being the persona of the character as expressible by the form taken and able to make choices and interpret the world as their character would.

[JackPhoenix]

True Polymorph doesn't override the effect of Simulacrum, it merely changes the statblock it uses. "Obeys your orders", "melts at 0 hp" "disappears when dispelled or when you cast Simulacrum again" is not a part of the creature's stat block, it's the function of the spell itself.

[darknite]

True Polymorph doesn't override the effect of Simulacrum, it merely changes the statblock it uses. "Obeys your orders", "melts at 0 hp" "disappears when dispelled or when you cast Simulacrum again" is not a part of the creature's stat block, it's the function of the spell itself.

This is a good point. There are multiple spells in play and it is best to acknowledge the pertinent parts of each. The casting of True Polymorph does negate the fact that Simulacrum is an ongoing spell.

[Keravath]

Does that restriction apply if the Wizard cast True Polymorph on themselves? The Wizard wouldn't remember their party members? By this argument TP'ing into an Adult Red Dragon would result in the Wizard/Dragon attacking the party. Actually, they wouldn't remember casting TP and hence couldn't sustain concentration since they wouldn't know that they had to.

I take personality as being the persona of the character as expressible by the form taken and able to make choices and interpret the world as their character would.

Honestly, I wish WotC would just clarify it. If you read the spells they only cite personality and alignment.

Polymorph: "The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality."

True Polymorph: "The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality."

Definition of personality: from various online sources

"the complex of characteristics that distinguishes an individual" (Merriam Webster)
"a set of distinctive traits and characteristics" (Merriam Webster)
"the combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual's distinctive character" (Oxford)
"Personality refers to individual differences in characteristic patterns of thinking, feeling and behaving. " (American Psychological Association)

Personality is the sum of who you are, how you see the world, how you interact with the world, "the characteristic patterns of thinking, feeling and behaving" ... but it does NOT include how you got there. It doesn't include the memories or experiences that brought you to this point.

As an example, when you are true polymorphed you do NOT retain any skills you had before the spell was cast. If you had expertise in something, it is gone unless it is in the stat block of the new creature. Clearly knowledge is lost in the transformation. If you retained memories of your previous form ... presumably you would also retain the skills. Do you think a creature would be any less persuasive for example if true polymorphed into something charismatic unless they lost all knowledge of how to perform that skill?

As a related point, here is the text from the clone spell:
"The clone is physically identical to the original and has the same personality, memories, and abilities,"

In this example, personality and memories are explicitly called out as different things. If personality was intended to include memory then the clone spell could be worded differently.

Anyway, most tables do not play as if the character loses their memory. They use polymorph as a low level shapechange that effectively allows the character a pretty much unencumbererd range of activity. Some tables may ask whether a beast is smart enough to figure out the strategy in use or coordinate their attacks with the other party members, some won't.

I also realize that there is sage advice indicating that the intent was the character should remain the character with some range of ability to decide their actions and the ability to recognize their friends and team mates.

However, the way the spell is written is open to a wide range of interpretation and DM intervention on exactly what a polymorphed creature is capable of.

Two things are clear:
1) A polymorphed creature uses the stat block of the creature they have changed into including mental stats - these may or may not have a significant impact on role playing depending on how an individual table might interpret an intelligence of 2 (if transformed into a variety of beasts).
2) A polymorphed creature loses all knowledge of any skills or capabilities they had before being polymorphed. Even a character transformed into a highly intelligent charismatic shape changing creature that could choose to look exactly as they did before the polymorph ... is unable to be persuasive or deceptive or ANY other skill they may have had, if they new form does not also have that skill. The character LOSES knowledge in the transformation. Knowledge is related to memory ... if they could remember then they could retain the skill (how could you lose the insight skill for example ... it is solely based on observation and experience ... if you transform into a form with acute senses and retained your knowledge and experience ... you should be able to apply your insight skill ... but you can't ... the skill is lost when you are true polymorphed and if the reason is not due to your senses then it must be due to lost memory and experience.)


Folks are welcome to play however they like ... and how they play it depends on how they define "personality" in the transformation process ... but there is a loss of memory and experience even in the case of true polymorph so it is clear that something is lost ... how individual tables choose to play those losses is up to them.

[darknite]

Hence the thread!

Good breakdown, though the definition of personality omitting memory seems like a disconnect. If your personality is an extension of your experiences, shouldn't they be accessible? The skill thing is more a 'because magic' attribute, IMHO. Personality and alignment give a core assumption that I know who I am and what I stand for. I'm not sure why a complete memory wipe would be assumed, especially since you'd think that would be a key facet to include in the spell description - though as pointed out, a lot of things there remain vague.

[Keravath]

Hence the thread!

Good breakdown, though the definition of personality omitting memory seems like a disconnect. If your personality is an extension of your experiences, shouldn't they be accessible? The skill thing is more a 'because magic' attribute, IMHO. Personality and alignment give a core assumption that I know who I am and what I stand for. I'm not sure why a complete memory wipe would be assumed, especially since you'd think that would be a key facet to include in the spell description - though as pointed out, a lot of things there remain vague.

It depends on how you interpret "personality" ... from what I have found, "personality" is the set of characteristics that define what a person is like ... mean, arrogant, compassionate, condescending, shy, aggressive, open, passionate or dispassionate, quiet, loud, jumps to conclusions, considerate, thinks before acting ... all of these describe what a "person" is like. Real life examples might be a person with amnesia though apparently the popularized "forgetting who you are" fictional treatment isn't very realistic :)

"Isolated memory loss doesn't affect a person's intelligence, general knowledge, awareness, attention span, judgment, personality or identity." (Mayo Clinic)

And ... you're right :) ... skills could simply be "because magic". Maybe a transformed creature retains everything and the game designers intended "personality" to stand for everything the character knows ... so even if the int is lower, maybe it only matters if they have to make int based checks and the rest of the time the creature can perform whatever complicated task or strategy the character wishes (doesn't really make sense to me but I like int to mean something from a role playing perspective).

However, using the simple English definition of the word "personality" doesn't necessarily include memory (as the real world example of an amnesia victim might demonstrate - same or similar personality - different or lacking memories).


None of these comments help however in figuring out how to implement polymorph when playing D&D :) ... just that the wording of the spells is ambiguous :)