PDA

View Full Version : Speculation Brute Fighter Fix hidden in Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica?



Vogie
2018-11-20, 11:00 PM
So, I had preordered Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica (GGR), and it arrived today - and I noticed an interesting ability on the Orzhov Giant (pg 202)


Focus: As a bonus action, the giant can target a creature it can see within 30 feet of it and make that creature its focus. The target remains the giants focus for 1 minute, or until either the target or the giant drops to 0 hit points.
When the giant makes an attack roll against its focus, it adds a d4 to its attack roll. If the giant attacks a different target while it has a focus, it subtracts a d4 from its attack roll.

Now, this immediately made me think of the considered-OP Brute Fighter that was released as UA (https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/UA-3Subclasses0108.pdf). The ability that was considered OP was Brute Force:


Brute Force
Starting at 3rd level, whenever you hit with a weapon that you're proficient with and deal damage, the weapon's damage increases by an amount based on your level in this class, as shown on the Brute Bonus Damage table.

Brute Bonus Damage



Fighter Level
Damage Increase


3rd
1d4


10th
1d6


16th
1d8


20th
1d10


Now there are some stark contrasts: Namely, Focus gives d4 to attack rolls, while Brute gives d4 to damage. Basically, it's a Bless effect vs a Divine Favor effect

However, it's close enough to make me wonder. There were rumors that the Brute was originally going to be included in GGR, but was ultimately cut due to balance issues.

Would adding this "focus" mechanic to the existing Brute fix the subclass? Was it included on the Orzhov Giant BECAUSE it was such a fix that was later removed?

The new Brute Force (or, should I say, Brute Focus) ability would look like this:


Brute Focus
Starting at 3rd level, as a bonus action, choose one creature you can see within 30 feet of you and make that creature your focus. The target remains your focus for 1 minute, or until either you or the target drops to 0 hit points. Whenever you hit your focus with a weapon that you're proficient with and deal damage, the weapon's damage increases by an amount based on your level in this class, as shown on the Brute Bonus Damage table. Whenever you attack a different target while you have a focus, the weapon's damage decreases by that amount.

Brute Bonus Damage



Fighter Level
Damage Increase/Decrease


3rd
1d4


10th
1d6


16th
1d8


20th
1d10


You'd still have the amplified damage, you'd still have that very rage-esque tunnel vision, but it's more balanced. One of the main cool parts of the Brute is how well it played with TWF fighters, and this alteration also stymies that slightly by using the bonus action to create a focus. While it does feel a bit like a ranger feature, such as Slayer's Prey, the lopsided increased damage that scales with level provides something fairly unique that we don't see in other classes, and may be exactly what the Brute Fighter needed.

Thoughts?

SociopathFriend
2018-11-21, 12:01 AM
Tunnel vision on one enemy you really want to smash DOES sound like the stereotypical brute.

ATHATH
2018-11-21, 12:28 AM
Maybe add an [ability mod] uses/short rest restriction to it?

It doesn't really feel like tunnel vision if you can just change your target pretty much at-will. At the same time, though, having your target Teleport out after you use your last use of this ability on them would pretty much cripple your damage output (unless you multiclassed into Paladin or something)... Actually, would using GWM still let you deal semi-passable damage to targets that you're not focusing on in that situation? Maybe add an ability to break out of your tunnel vision if you spend an action if you go with that change?

dgnslyr
2018-11-21, 01:25 AM
Considering Brute Focus is basically the entirety of the Brute's class features, I don't think it's really necessary to impose any resources management restriction on it, especially considering it's supposed to be a less-garbage alternative to the woefully-underpowered Champion archetype. As written, it's... honestly not even that impressive, if you compare it to even a Barbarian's extra damage during rage, and it's not like Barbarians are the peak of broken to begin with.

Fighters don't typically have a lot of ways to spend a bonus action at base, but with options like PAM, Crossbow Expert, and TWF, it's still an important resource. Brute fighters don't have a lot of power in the first place compared to the full-casters completely disabling one or more enemies a turn, so it doesn't seem like a nerf is really warranted.

strangebloke
2018-11-21, 01:31 AM
Maybe add an [ability mod] uses/short rest restriction to it?

It doesn't really feel like tunnel vision if you can just change your target pretty much at-will. At the same time, though, having your target Teleport out after you use your last use of this ability on them would pretty much cripple your damage output (unless you multiclassed into Paladin or something)... Actually, would using GWM still let you deal semi-passable damage to targets that you're not focusing on in that situation? Maybe add an ability to break out of your tunnel vision if you spend an action if you go with that change?

Shouldn't be short rest based. The whole point of the brute is to not have any resource economy.

I've got a brute in my game right now. He's strong, but it's not disruptive so far.

jiriku
2018-11-21, 02:23 AM
I also don't feel the brute is broken. We play with one in our group, and he's a consistent source of lots of reliable damage -- just like a fighter should be. No one in the party feels overshadowed. The DM builds his encounters like he always has before the brute entered the party.

Some people don't like playing a resource management mini-game with their characters, and the brute provides an option for fighter players that is simple and effective.

Unoriginal
2018-11-21, 05:21 AM
The problem with the Brute wasn't that it was OP, IMO, it was that it needed features to make it different from the Champion.

Exocist
2018-11-21, 07:59 AM
The problem with the Brute wasn't that it was OP, IMO, it was that it needed features to make it different from the Champion.

I agree, IMO the Brute was the "fix" for the champion, making a resourceless fighter subclass that wasn't a complete trap option.

It's not OP because all it does is damage and survive really. He has a better chance of passing his bad saves, but INT/WIS/CHA saves will still screw a fighter sideways and a fighter is still playing by the rules of the game. He can't break the game wide open like an optimised caster can, all he can do is stand in front of things, hit them and MAYBE grapple/shove.

Unoriginal
2018-11-21, 08:27 AM
I agree, IMO the Brute was the "fix" for the champion, making a resourceless fighter subclass that wasn't a complete trap option.

It's not OP because all it does is damage and survive really. He has a better chance of passing his bad saves, but INT/WIS/CHA saves will still screw a fighter sideways and a fighter is still playing by the rules of the game. He can't break the game wide open like an optimised caster can, all he can do is stand in front of things, hit them and MAYBE grapple/shove.

Well I don't think the Champion is a trap option. And casters can't break the game (unless the DM gives them freebie power-ups by going "lol of course magic can do that, it's magic").

Anyway, that's a different debate. We agree on the Brute.

The subclass was fine, it just needed some things to give it more its own identity.

NaughtyTiger
2018-11-21, 02:32 PM
I am running a brute with tavern brawler. It is fun, and at 2d4 +4 not op at all. Consistently less damage and effect than the open hand monk

Man_Over_Game
2018-11-21, 02:38 PM
Well I don't think the Champion is a trap option. And casters can't break the game (unless the DM gives them freebie power-ups by going "lol of course magic can do that, it's magic").


I agree, Champions aren't a "trap", they do exactly what they say on the label. "Hit hard, don't die".

I'd probably say Storm Sorcerer is closer to the example of a "trap". Cool ideas that don't actually work together, but you'd have to play the class to fully understand why. Everyone knows exactly what the Champion does and how it plays.

Damon_Tor
2018-11-21, 05:11 PM
It doesn't really feel like tunnel vision if you can just change your target pretty much at-will.

As written, OPs idea would force the brute to keep one target until it died, or until 1 minute has elapsed. That's pretty relevant, especially if you have a situation where your focus can just teleport away or something. I'd prefer to see a thing where the brute kind of builds up to full power, and if he switches targets he loses his build up.

I don't dislike OP's idea, but part of the charm of the Brute is how simple it is. Adding another action to take and having to be like "Hrm, but if I select this one guy as my focus, but he disengages, I would be stuck between these two other guys at my flanks. However, if I designate this other guy as my focus, tactically speaking..." That's not the sort of thinking you should be rewarded for as a brute.

If anything, I would make the Brute's extra damage feature even simpler:


Brute Force
Starting at level 3, add your Constitution modifier to the damage you deal with weapon attacks using strength.

Weaker, strictly speaking, than the current feature, but also you don't have to roll any extra dice. Just add damage.