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View Full Version : Open Challenge: Model a Bar Fight.



Kalirren
2007-09-20, 11:51 AM
The title is the short of it.

The real motivation comes from the fact that D&D and (by extension, since D&D is the most popular first system for most RPG'ers, ) most other RPG systems lack a mechanic for combat awareness. Not just "do you see me," which is what hide/move silently/invisibility is for, but "are you paying attention to me?" which is an entirely different question, and one very relevant in even a 5-on-5 melee between a PC party and their adversaries. A mechanic for combat awareness should really be the base for things like sneak attack, flanking, flat-footed, etc.

So the challenge here really is, "Make a model of combat awareness in an all-out melee that produces a believable bar fight when the model is applied." And then we can adapt this to the amelioration of our system in general.

I yield the floor.

AKA_Bait
2007-09-20, 11:56 AM
The title is the short of it.

The real motivation comes from the fact that D&D and (by extension, since D&D is the most popular first system for most RPG'ers, ) most other RPG systems lack a mechanic for combat awareness. Not just "do you see me," which is what hide/move silently/invisibility is for, but "are you paying attention to me?" which is an entirely different question, and one very relevant in even a 5-on-5 melee between a PC party and their adversaries. A mechanic for combat awareness should really be the base for things like sneak attack, flanking, flat-footed, etc.

So the challenge here really is, "Make a model of combat awareness in an all-out melee that produces a believable bar fight when the model is applied." And then we can adapt this to the amelioration of our system in general.

I yield the floor.

I'd always thought that was what init, surprise rounds, being flat footed, flanking and spot checks were for...

Kalirren
2007-09-20, 12:28 PM
^^ That works well in a small approximation, where relatively few participants are all aware of each other. But recently it came up in an involved combat with over twenty participants in my game that the crossbow-sniper rogue PC decided to spontaneously switch targets and hit the NPC mage who was paying all his attention to the PC mage, and not to the rogue, who was passing for a nameless mook on our side, involved in the mook-battle. Common sense dictated that our rogue would get the benefits of sneak attack, even though RAW unambiguously does give the other answer, that he does not. After thinking about it for a while, I came to the conclusion that the issue of combat awareness was the weak link in the canonical model, hence stands the challenge.

Assasinater
2007-09-20, 01:09 PM
I was recently thinking of something similar. The active use of Spot and Listen skills can be integrated to the battle system, along with more use of the reflex save. For example:

-The combatant retains all of his bonuses to AC against all enemies in his line of sight. An enemy is someone the combatant considers threatening. Bluff or something similar vs. a Sense Motive check can be used to not register as an enemy to someone.

-Incoming attacks from previously non-enemies in the line of sight forces an average Spot check. Failure results in being flatfooted against that attacker.

-The combatant is entitled to a Listen check plus a Reflex save against an attacker who is not in his line of sight but within hearing range. Failure results again in being flatfooted.

-All attacks on a combatant in one round beyond the first attack force the combatant to make a Spot check (and maybe a Reflex save) to prevent being flatfooted. The DCs start out low, but increase by 1 for each attack beyond the first. This allows (for example) someone with, say, 8 attacks in a round to bewilder an opponent with a poor Spot check, making the Spot skill mandatory in combat (it makes sense too).

The downside is, all these checks require an awful lot of rolling. Maybe the spot check and the reflex save can be combined to something like a(quoting Kalirren) "combat awareness" check, but that's still a bit much to roll. Perhaps someone can improve these ideas.

Kellus
2007-09-21, 09:34 PM
I was intrigued by your proposition, so I did what I always do before homebrewing something: ate some tortilla chips. What do you think?

Combat Awareness

Under this system, a being involved in battle pays different amounts of attention to different targets. Targets fall into 3 general categories for every being involved in a fight.

1) The Focus: A character in a fight has 1 main focus; generally, the person they’re beating up. In order to choose a focus, the target must fulfill the following criteria:

i. Must be known to the character: A character may not focus on something that they don’t know about.
ii. Must be immediately discernable to the character: A character may not focus on a target if they can’t sense them. See Avoiding the Focus, below.

When fighting their focus, the character gains several advantages:

i. The focus gains no bonus on flanking the character.
ii. The character may negate up to 20% nonmagical concealment (if any) that the focus would normally gain.
iii. The character gains a general +1 dodge bonus on AC, attack rolls and saves against the focus. This represents the insight the character gains from focusing on a sole target (note: if the character has the Dodge feat, these two AC bonuses stack).
iv. The character gains a +1 bonus on skill checks involving the focus. This represents how the character plans his actions around the focus. For example, if he’s attempting to tumble around a group of enemies, he’s especially focused on 1 enemy, and thus unconciously sets up his tumble to gain an advantage over this 1 enemy.
v. The focus can never deal precision-based damage to the character.

Most beings lack the attention to have more than 1 focus at a time.

Changing a focus is a swift action as a character reorients themselves around a new target.

2) The Peripheral: A character in a fight can also keep an eye vaguely on up to 2 additional enemies. A target must meet the same requirements as a focus before they may be chosen as a peripheral. A peripheral is a target that a character is aware of, even if they are not paying direct attention to them.

Against a peripheral, the character gains no modifiers. Normal Dungeons and Dragons rules treat every combatant as a peripheral.

Most beings lack the attention to have more than 2 peripherals at a time.

Changing peripherals is a swift action as a character mentally notes the position of new targets.

A character may not normally change peripherals and focus with the same swift action.

3) The Unknown: A character in a fight cannot keep track of every combatant. The unknown is just that: completely unknown to the character. This grants several advantages to the unknown:

i) The unknown gains an additional +2 bonus on attack rolls when flanking a character.
ii) The unknown is always treated as having an additional 20% nonmagical concealment against attacks by the character.
iii) The character takes a -1 penalty on AC, attack rolls, skill checks, and saves against the unknown.
iv) The character may not make attacks of opportunity against an unknown.
v) The unknown always deals any precision-based damage that they are capable of dealing against the character. They need not meet the normal requirements for their precision-based damage if they are an unknown to the character. This does not allow them to deal precision-based damage to a character immune to such, such as an undead, an ooze, a plant, or a construct.

A character may improve their combat awareness with the following feat.

Uncanny Attention [General]
Prerequisite: Int 12
Benefit: You have a much sharper focus than most people. You may have 2 combat focuses at a time and 4 combat peripherals. You may change all of your combat focuses and peripherals as a swift action.
Normal: You may only have one combat focus at a time.
Special: You may take this feat once per point of your Int modifier. Every time, you gain another combat focus and 2 additional combat peripherals.

Avoiding the Focus: A character who is unknown to the target may attempt a Hide or Move Silently check as an immediate action if the target attempts to include them as a focus or as a peripheral. This is opposed by the searcher’s Spot or Listen check, as normal. The searcher still takes the -1 penalty on skill checks against an unknown with this check. A searcher may only make 1 sense-based check per round, unless they have the Quick Reconnoiter feat, which allows them to attempt both a Spot and a Listen check in the same round.

Note: This system explains why in the surprise round rogues always deal sneak attack damage (and if they go first in initiative); at that point the target has not had a chance to focus as a swift action, and thus the rogue is an unknown to him.

Bar fight pending.

Pronounceable
2007-09-22, 07:26 AM
I think such a model would be very nice to have, but actually tying it to skill checks would make the game unrunnable except for a computer. The rule must be something static, active use of spot/listen skills is a BIG no. And current DnD combat mechanics are already filled to the brim with rules.

That aside, implementing facing is a MUST for combat awareness. Something mirroring AoO rules would be appropriate. ONE visible enemy is "observed" (more with feats), and all other enemies get bonuses for being "unobserved" (can be lessened with feats).

Facing certainly changes flanking and "observation" concept might affect AoOs too. Needs more thinking...


EDIT: Seems great minds work alike Kellus. Differing only in the amount of effort they are willing to spend... I like your rules, except for avoiding focus. The last thing combat needs is more rolling. What would happen if we just dropped avoiding concept?

dr.cello
2007-09-22, 08:30 AM
Hmm. I feel that Initiative should play a role in this, largely because the Streetfighter prestige class (CAdv) seems like it should provide improved combat awareness. (Admittedly, it does provide Uncanny Dodge, which more or less replicates this--I am convinced that Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge should make one essentially Aware of everyone.)

A check at the start of combat seems like it would be a good start. Similar to an Initiative check and rolled at the same time. I think that rolling a Wisdom check at the start of the battle (or possibly a Dex or Intelligence check, with an option on adding any Initiative modifiers from feats or classes (but not your dex modifier, if not a dex check)). The resulting number is your Combat Awareness total. You are automatically considered unaware of anyone you can't see (obviously) and anyone who you believe to be an ally or neutral observer. (This is partly DM's discretion and partly based on an old Disguise or Bluff check, depending on the situation.)

If your Combat Awareness is higher than your opponent's Initiative, then you are aware of him. If you attack or are attacked by an opponent, you are considered aware of him at the start of your next turn. You are flat-footed against any opponent of which you are unaware.

This doesn't add too much rolling. While the mage in your situation could, in theory, be aware of the rogue, a rogue with a reasonably high initiative modifier could reasonably expect to catch the mage unawares. And for those involved in the central melee, it won't make a whole lot of difference--you're aware of people once they've attacked you and you're aware of the people you're attacking, so the mages are aware of each other regardless of their respective rolls.

It makes a high initiative helpful without being overpowering--if anyone starts attacking that character, then he doesn't have the advantage anymore. I think a Wisdom check is definitely best, since Wisdom is the most awareness-appropriate stat. And I would definitely allow any bonuses to initiative to add to it, so Improved Initiative, Quick Reconnoiter, and the Streetfighter's Always Ready add to Awareness.

I would also be tempted to add a mechanic that prevents someone from just shooting everyone once with his bow, or throwing rocks at them or something, and being considered aware of everyone. Not sure what to do on that point, though. It might be a non-issue--if you just shoot at everyone to make sure you're aware of them, you're being sort of useless, and it's probably better than letting the rogue with his high initiative get a flat-footed attack off on everyone who isn't currently attacking him.

Or, alternatively, you can just have everyone roll an Innuendo check...

Kellus
2007-09-22, 10:57 AM
Seems great minds work alike Kellus. Differing only in the amount of effort they are willing to spend... I like your rules, except for avoiding focus. The last thing combat needs is more rolling. What would happen if we just dropped avoiding concept?

Avoiding focus is important, since it actually allows Hide and Move Silently to play a part in combat. Also, read it carefully: my mechanic requires the person who's hiding or moving silently to actively choose to do so, and give up their immediate action for the round. That means they can't do anything else on their round that requires an immediate or swift action, including:

i) Activating any of numerous magical items requiring a swift or immediate action.
ii) Changing their own focus or peripherals.
iii) Hide or move silently against anyone else. They too are focused on avoiding the notice of one person and can't just hide from anybody. A rogue who tries to hide from one enemy can't try to hide from another person, meaning that she can't avoid their focus.

I think it's a good trade-off: giving the hider a chance to use skills to gain some bonuses by being an unknown, but hampering their other actions that round by using their immediate/swift action.

Dove
2007-09-22, 01:44 PM
Ooooh, I like those rules, Kellus. I'm running a campaign with a lot of big battles, and may have a chance to use them. That provides a nice filtering effect--PCs could be in the middle of a clash of two armies, but with only a specific awareness of ten or so opponents. The battle rages on around them, unknown except when it intrudes on their space and attention. Oooh, I like it very much.

What does the character actually know about the "unknown"? It sounds like he's completely unaware of unknown characters. That makes sense for an immediately involved melee character trying to track three other melee targets, but it seems silly for a new guy who walks in or an archer purposely surveying the room looking for squishies. These folks would certainly have a basic awareness of the battlescape.

I'd suggest adding in some sort of move-action ability to survey the room--to gain a basic awareness of who all is present and roughly where they're standing, and to get some specific position and tactics data for ten or so targets. Of course, this awareness fades when the new guy has chosen a target to beat on, or the archer zeroes in for a precise shot.

Mewtarthio
2007-09-22, 04:17 PM
Question: Why is "Uncanny Attention" Int-based? Wis is the primary stat for Awareness.

Kellus
2007-09-22, 11:05 PM
Because it's not so much how well you can see the target, although that does come into it if they try to hide from your gaze. It's how many targets you can keep track of at the same time in the middle of a bloodbath.

Another idea I contemplated was introducing a new skill, Situational Awareness, which was Int-based, but I think that this approach works better. It keeps everyone on a level playing field.