Straight from AD&D: How would you make an elven or half-elven Fighter-Mage-Thief?

[Willie the Duck]

Title says it all. Obviously it would be Fighter-Wizard-Rogue, and we can stretch the definitions as far as people like (If barbarian and sorcerer work better, so be it). My only caveat is that the obvious choice- valor bard- is a bard, not a FMT (we had bards in both 1e and 2e, they were fine, but not the same thing). Goal is to capture the feel of the character you made BitD, while still being playable. Any thoughts?


My first thought would be Straight-up Eldritch Knight/Arcane Trickster (which probably would qualify without even any levels of wizard), or Champion Fighter/Thief Rogue/Evoker. But I'm sure some other archtypes would actually help more in capturing the concept.

Anyways, thought it would be a fun challenge.

[PeteNutButter]

Just multiclass.

Although you probably don't even need the fighter. You can just be an Arcane Trickster/Blade Singer and be done with it. Blade Singer gives extra attack which is all one needs to function as a "fighter" in this edition.

If you really want to throw fighter in there, do it for extra attack and leave Blade Singer as a dip.

[JellyPooga]

Bladesinger with Criminal or Urchin Background. Simples.

Fighty? Check. Casty? Check. Thiefy? Check. Done.

[Man_Over_Game]

Bladesinger with Criminal or Urchin Background. Simples.

Fighty? Check. Casty? Check. Thiefy? Check. Done.

Probably the best solution possible. If you want more skills, a level or two into Rogue will work heavily in your favor.

If you want more "melee" and less "mage", Dexterity Eldritch Knight will work more as a consistent frontliner, and can even benefit from a level into Rogue.

Going more than 2 levels into Rogue means:

You have a big team, so you'll activate Sneak Attack very often (Swashbuckler is the exception)
Your team lacks a skill monkey
You're going as a ranged attacker.

[CantigThimble]

Bladesinger with proficiency in stealth and thieves' tools.

Anything missing from that?

[Mith]

Bladesinger with proficiency in stealth and thieves' tools.

Anything missing from that?

The impression I have is that Bladesinger was the spiritusl successor to the Elven F-M-T in any case, so this would be the best match.

[Willie the Duck]

Bladesinger with proficiency in stealth and thieves' tools.

Anything missing from that?

It fits the theme well. There's some criticism of things like the Criminal background (or other ways of getting mere proficiency, particularly if you don't also have a maxed-out dex) that if you don't have expertise, you can't really be consistent enough in successful rolls to really 'be' a rogue, just look the part. I'm not sure I agree, and let's be honest, AD&D thieves also honestly couldn't necessarily do their job consistently (without DM rule changes) at levels many of us played at, either. Bladesingers are a little different from AD&D FMTs in that they are pretty defense-focused, whereas defense was the FMT's real weakness.

[hymer]

The impression I have is that Bladesinger was the spiritusl successor to the Elven F-M-T in any case, so this would be the best match.
Bladesingers exist in 2e as well.

As to the OP, I agree on the Bladesinger. But an alternative could be Bard.

[beargryllz]

I made a human Fighter/rogue/sorceror in 5e long ago in one of my earliest 5e adventures

I built him for the sorceror luck reroll and don't need any more sorceror levels, but I always could do more if I wanted to

I have fighter 2 for action surge

I had rogue (assassin) 4 for the + stat modifier

I took sharpshooter right away and use that to assassinate things

I started as a fighter so I am proficient with all armor, all weapons, and have the Con save proficiency

[Grod_The_Giant]

Any combination of Arcane Trickster and Bladesinger. The two subclasses play really well with each other.

[Naanomi]

Triple-Multiclass characters in ADnD were pretty incompetent in all three roles for the most part; a straight Arcane Trickster, Blade Singer, Eldritch Knight, Hexblade, or Swords/Valor Bard (perhaps with the right backgrounds chosen to give Thieves’ Tools) have the same flavor and are arguably more competent across all domains

[MaxWilson]

Title says it all. Obviously it would be Fighter-Wizard-Rogue, and we can stretch the definitions as far as people like (If barbarian and sorcerer work better, so be it). My only caveat is that the obvious choice- valor bard- is a bard, not a FMT (we had bards in both 1e and 2e, they were fine, but not the same thing). Goal is to capture the feel of the character you made BitD, while still being playable. Any thoughts?


My first thought would be Straight-up Eldritch Knight/Arcane Trickster (which probably would qualify without even any levels of wizard), or Champion Fighter/Thief Rogue/Evoker. But I'm sure some other archtypes would actually help more in capturing the concept.

Anyways, thought it would be a fun challenge.

Eldritch Knight/Rogue/Wizard, aiming for eventual Eldritch Knight 11/Rogue 2/Wizard 7 (expertise in Thieves' Tools and Stealth). You wind up with 5th level spell slots, 3 attacks, plenty of wizard spells to use with your Arcane Strike, and good sneaking/lockpicking capabilities.

Feels pretty Fighter/Mage/Thief-ish to me anyway.

You can't really replicate the feel of advancement without custom rules for concurrent multiclassing--so you won't gain your low-level Thief/Wizard/etc. abilities as fast as a F/M/T would--but if you wanted a reasonable facsimile thereof I'd probably go:

1. Fighter 1
2. Fighter 1/Wizard 1
3. Fighter 1/Wizard 1/Rogue 1
5. Eldritch Knight 3/Wizard 1/Rogue 1
7. Eldritch Knight 3/Wizard 3/Rogue 1 [choose whatever wizard specialty floats your boat]
8. Eldritch Knight 3/Wizard 3/Rogue 2
10. Eldritch Knight 5/Wizard 3/Rogue 2
12. Eldritch Knight 5/Wizard 5/Rogue 2
15. Eldritch Knight 8/Wizard 5/Rogue 2
17. Eldritch Knight 8/Wizard 7/Rogue 2
20. Eldritch Knight 11/Wizard 7/Rogue 2

Your weakest point is around the level 5-7 range, when a "real" wizard would be playing with Fireball and a "real" fighter would have multiple attacks and you've got neither, but even then you are still pretty sneaky (no Cunning Action but Expertise) and you can still leverage spells like Tasha's Hideous DaughterLaughter and Web, and at least you've still got cantrip scaling to partially compensate for no Extra Attack.

As far as I'm concerned though the main selling point is that the eventual progression converges on a very Fighter/Mage/Thiefish feel by level 12 and keeps that feel permanently.


Triple-Multiclass characters in ADnD were pretty incompetent in all three roles for the most part; a straight Arcane Trickster, Blade Singer, Eldritch Knight, Hexblade, or Swords/Valor Bard (perhaps with the right backgrounds chosen to give Thieves’ Tools) have the same flavor and are arguably more competent across all domains

We remember AD&D very, very differently. This may be an edition difference; I played AD&D 2nd edition, which had much higher level limits. If you were playing AD&D 1st edition outside of Dragonlance I can sort of see how you'd say this, although it's still misleading because a Fighter/Mage/Thief was still about as good as fightering, maging, and thiefing as a single-classed Fighter, Mage, or Thief of the same race; it's a racial issue, not a multiclassing issue.


Bladesinger with proficiency in stealth and thieves' tools.

Anything missing from that?

My main objection here would be that it's too good at wizarding and not quite good enough at thiefing. It's a pretty good Fighter/Mage though.

Roguesingers (Rogue 2/Bladesinger X) are a pretty good Fighter/Mage/Thief facsimile. I had forgotten about Bladesingers when I wrote the above EK 11/Wiz 7/Rogue 2.

[Naanomi]

You’d eventually be good at everything, but you advanced so ponderously slow compared to single class characters... who are also likely eligible for a 10%exp boost you didn’t qualify for... that they were dropping world-shattering spells when you were just coming into your role at all. You were strong at level 1, and had high potential (but not as high as a human... racial level limits)... but the middle ground was just snails-pace mediocrity

And, if I recall, Thieves never exactly got competent at their own schtick to begin with

[LudicSavant]

Fighter Wizard Rogue? Just play a melee wizard build with the right skill picks. You can use skills just fine (and even Expertise and such with stuff like Prodigy) without leaving Wizard, and use spells to augment them. You can mix it up with a sword as long as you have melee cantrips, proficiency, and buff spells. A familiar can grab you Advantage on attacks. War Caster makes you sticky (because nobody likes taking Booming Blade OAs, let alone actual spell slot OAs )

If you really want you can dip something, but you don’t really need to. Look up one of the “Abjurant Champion” style builds and go nuts. Or for a bit of dashing rogue flair, the enchanter tank could be fun for you. And of course there’s the Bladesinger, but they are not the only or even best melee Wizard. Extra Attack isn’t that big a deal when it requires you to forego Booming Blade.

Another option is (insert class with medium armor and shield prof) 1 / Arcane Trickster X. AT progression is just solid and grabbing a shield gives them the one extra thing they need to shine as a tank.

[Keravath]

Eldritch Knight/Rogue/Wizard, aiming for eventual Eldritch Knight 11/Rogue 2/Wizard 7 (expertise in Thieves' Tools and Stealth). You wind up with 5th level spell slots, 3 attacks, plenty of wizard spells to use with your Arcane Strike, and good sneaking/locking capabilities.

Feels pretty Fighter/Mage/Thief-ish to me anyway.

You can't really replicate the feel of advancement without custom rules for concurrent multiclassing--so you won't gain your low-level Thief/Wizard/etc. abilities as fast as a F/M/T would--but if you wanted a reasonable facsimile thereof I'd probably go:

1. Fighter 1
2. Fighter 1/Wizard 1
3. Fighter 1/Wizard 1/Rogue 1
5. Eldritch Knight 3/Wizard 1/Rogue 1
7. Eldritch Knight 3/Wizard 3/Rogue 1 [choose whatever wizard specialty floats your boat]
8. Eldritch Knight 3/Wizard 3/Rogue 2
10. Eldritch Knight 5/Wizard 3/Rogue 2
12. Eldritch Knight 5/Wizard 5/Rogue 2
15. Eldritch Knight 8/Wizard 5/Rogue 2
17. Eldritch Knight 8/Wizard 7/Rogue 2
20. Eldritch Knight 11/Wizard 7/Rogue 2

Your weakest point is around the level 5-7 range, when a "real" wizard would be playing with Fireball and a "real" fighter would have multiple attacks and you've got neither, but even then you are still pretty sneaky (no Cunning Action but Expertise) and you can still leverage spells like Tasha's Hideous DaughterLaughter and Web, and at least you've still got cantrip scaling to partially compensate for no Extra Attack.

As far as I'm concerned though the main selling point is that the eventual progression converges on a very Fighter/Mage/Thiefish feel by level 12 and keeps that feel permanently.



We remember AD&D very, very differently. This may be an edition difference; I played AD&D 2nd edition, which had much higher level limits. If you were playing AD&D 1st edition outside of Dragonlance I can sort of see how you'd say this, although it's still misleading because a Fighter/Mage/Thief was still about as good as fightering, maging, and thiefing as a single-classed Fighter, Mage, or Thief of the same race; it's a racial issue, not a multiclassing issue.

By the time a F/M/T was 2/2/3 (say 9000xp) the single classes were 4/3/4.
By the time a F/M/T was 5/5/6 (say 75k xp) the single classes were 7/7/8.

Typically, the F/M/T would lag by two levels in each class which affected THAC0, hit points, spells and other abilities.

If you actually progressed to higher levels the racial level limits would come into play limiting the progression of the multiclass in everything except thief.

----------

As far as a good choice for this multiclass goes ... I think the pure bladesinger has a lot of flavour but brings far more magic to the table than the original F/M/T. If you want to capture a similar feel you would probably want an almost even multiclass with F6/W7/R7 ... archetypes to suit.

I think both the arcane trickster and eldritch knight are pretty cool alternates but have a bit less magic feel to them separately though you could go 6 eldritch knight/7 wizard/arcane trickster 7 to bump the magic further. (This nets 4d6 sneak dice, extra attack, lots of skills from rogue as well as expertise, uncanny dodge, evasion, 4 feats/ASI (so you may want 6/6/8 for an extra feat), 4th level spells, loads of cantrips ... other stuff).

From an optimization perspective you could go fighter champion 3/wizard bladesinger 14/rogue thief or trickster 3 (though there are a lot of more optimized choices)

One of the "defining" abilities of the rogue (though many ignore it) is the ability to take expertise in thieves tools. No other class can do this ... but its usefulness depends on how much you want to excel at picking locks and disarming traps. If you plan any classic dungeon crawls then expertise in perception, investigation and thieves tools can come in very handy.

If you can get the "rogue" feel that you are looking for from the Urchin or Criminal backgrounds (or a custom background) that provides proficiency in thieves tools then that might be sufficient. However, in my opinion, if you want the rogue feel in 5e you should take at least 2 levels in rogue for cunning action.

[MaxWilson]

You’d eventually be good at everything, but you advanced so ponderously slow compared to single class characters... who are also likely eligible for a 10%exp boost you didn’t qualify for... that they were dropping world-shattering spells when you were just coming into your role at all. You were strong at level 1, and had high potential (but not as high as a human... racial level limits)... but the middle ground was just snails-pace mediocrity

And, if I recall, Thieves never exactly got competent at their own schtick to begin with

Remember that AD&D XP tables were exponential up to level 10ish. When your mage was 11th level, my fighter/mage/thief is approximately 9th level. That isn't at all "ponderously slow."

I'll grant that later level progression slows down a bit. When your mage is 20th level, my fighter/mage/thief is something like 13th level. Is high level advancement what you meant to refer to? Counterpoint:

(1) at that point I've long since come into my role (I've been a good Fighter/Mage/Thief since around 5th level at the latest),

(2) you've already been dropping game-changing spells since 9th level at the latest (Magic Jar, Dominate, Polymorph Other, Stoneskin/Ironskin),

(3) that's why I sort of feel like a Roguesinger has "too much magic" to be a really proper F/M/T facsimile: you're not really "supposed" to rival an archmage at magic, just a really, really good mage.

[Naanomi]

Remember that AD&D XP tables were exponential up to level 10ish. When your mage was 11th level, my fighter/mage/thief is approximately 9th level. That isn't at all "ponderously slow."

I'll grant that later level progression slows down a bit. When your mage is 20th level, my fighter/mage/thief is something like 13th level. Is high level advancement what you meant to refer to? Counterpoint:

(1) at that point I've long since come into my role (I've been a good Fighter/Mage/Thief since around 5th level at the latest),

(2) you've already been dropping game-changing spells since 9th level at the latest (Magic Jar, Dominate, Polymorph Other, Stoneskin/Ironskin),

(3) that's why I sort of feel like a Roguesinger has "too much magic" to be a really proper F/M/T facsimile: you're not really "supposed" to rival an archmage at magic, just a really, really good mage.
2 levels of magic meant a lot; and theives’ struggled in doing their job even at top level. And, depending on the ruleset used, being a multiclassed Fighter in the first place prevented you from accessing the weapon specialization options that made getting to high levels impressive in the first place

Your max level limits were 12/15/12 by the way, just found my old PHB and checked

[wilphe]

Gestalt (well trisalt really) would emulate it to a degree.

You then have to work out how to fit gestalt around other presumably non gestalt PCs.

Like with an XP penalty or a level adjustment or, and I've wanted to try this:

You pay the XP for as many classes as you are gestalting.

So rather than 1000 XP to get to level 2, you need to spend 3000 and get there the same time the rest of the party is getting to 3rd

You would have to correct for "XP is a river" effects and/or work out what level you "really" are for XP purposes, or accept that because of action economy a tristalt is not as good as 3 separate players.

It might work depending on what levels you are playing and playstyle

Assuming XPs are gained equally:

At 5th level:

Gestalt PCs are close to 4th, Tristalt have just hit 3rd


At 10th level:

Gestalt are 7th, Tristalt are 6th

At 15th level:

Gestalt are nearly at 11th and Tristalt nearly at 9th

At 20th level:

Gestalt are 14th, Tristalt close to 12th

[Nhorianscum]

Rouge 9/fighter2/caster 9 or fighter 7/rouge2/caster 11 or fighter 11/caster 9 using spells and prodigy to emulate rouge ticks all the boxes here. We miss out on reliable talent but the ability to spam 5th level spells is just better since knock and pass without trace exist.

(I still need to roll an Xbow mastery Monster Hunter 11/Divine Soul 9 to crank out 4 attacks per round with Holy Weapon all day every day)

If you really want Rtalent we can pull off rouge11/Fighter2/Caster 7 but we're only ever getting 4th level spells without a dragonmark or ravnica background and AT for +3 caster level. That said it's pretty damn decent in ebberon and ravnica.

[Naanomi]

I’m reluctant to give Fighter levels to this at all, since 2e wizards didn’t utilize armor at all (except specific magic items basically)

[mephnick]

It fits the theme well. There's some criticism of things like the Criminal background (or other ways of getting mere proficiency, particularly if you don't also have a maxed-out dex) that if you don't have expertise, you can't really be consistent enough in successful rolls to really 'be' a rogue, just look the part. I'm not sure I agree

I don't agree either. The Reliable Talent, Expertise Stealth Rogue is over-killing stealth checks by 10+ in every game I've ever played....to the point where if I make a Rogue I don't bother taking Expertise on Stealth. Proficiency + a decent Dex score will see you through 90% of all your Stealth needs. Most monsters don't have a +15 in Perception.

[MaxWilson]

2 levels of magic meant a lot; and theives’ struggled in doing their job even at top level. And, depending on the ruleset used, being a multiclassed Fighter in the first place prevented you from accessing the weapon specialization options that made getting to high levels impressive in the first place

Your max level limits were 12/15/12 by the way, just found my old PHB and checked

This bit about thieves is a different discussion really: why fighter/mage/cleric is a much stronger powergamer choice than fighter/mage/thief. Thieves unfortunately don't bring much to the table, which is why my suggested emulation only has two levels of Rogue in it.

Missing out on weapon specialization is unfortunate, and indeed the strongest argument against multiclassing, but it has nothing to do with "ponderously slow" advancement. Multiclassed advancement was not in fact ponderously slow.


It fits the theme well. There's some criticism of things like the Criminal background (or other ways of getting mere proficiency, particularly if you don't also have a maxed-out dex) that if you don't have expertise, you can't really be consistent enough in successful rolls to really 'be' a rogue, just look the part. I'm not sure I agree, and let's be honest, AD&D thieves also honestly couldn't necessarily do their job consistently (without DM rule changes) at levels many of us played at, either. Bladesingers are a little different from AD&D FMTs in that they are pretty defense-focused, whereas defense was the FMT's real weakness.

Tangent, but: I'm not sure I agree about FMTs having weak defense. They had pretty decent saves compared to a single-classed character, access to spells for boosting defenses (Mirror Image, Stoneskin, Magic Jar and Armor at minimum come to mind but I'm sure with my adult mind I could find a lot of combos that I didn't notice as a teenager), and there's nothing really stopping them from putting on armor as long as they don't try to cast spells while wearing armor. I don't remember how long it takes to don/doff armor though.

I agree though that 5E Bladesingers are significantly more durable than AD&D Fighter/Mage/Thieves when they're not using magical defenses.

[thoroughlyS]

This would be easier to answer if you explained what you wanted from being a fighter/mage/thief. How much do you want to focus on spells? What kind of equipment do you want? What role do you want to fill for the party, in or out of combat?

[Keravath]

I don't agree either. The Reliable Talent, Expertise Stealth Rogue is over-killing stealth checks by 10+ in every game I've ever played....to the point where if I make a Rogue I don't bother taking Expertise on Stealth. Proficiency + a decent Dex score will see you through 90% of all your Stealth needs. Most monsters don't have a +15 in Perception.

Personally, I like to be able to make my stealth checks fairly reliably from levels 1-10 as well. In which case, expertise in stealth does make a significant difference in success.

In addition, at level 11+, without expertise, your stealth skill caps out between +9 up to level 12, +10 up to 16 and +11 up to 20. With reliable talent this means that you roll 19, 20 and 21 50% of the time. Yes, this is often above the passive perception of a lot of monsters (but not all) and not necessarily class based NPCs.

As an example, most adult dragons have a passive perception ranging from 21 to 24. As a rogue, I would personally like to be able to succeed on a hide check while fighting a dragon. However, without expertise you will fail 50%+ of the time. With expertise, you actually pass most if not all of the time. Against a passive perception of 23 (adult red dragon) ... at level 20 you will only succeed on a hide check 40% of the time. With expertise? You succeed 100% of the time.

I think it pretty likely that you will run into some dragons in a decent adventuring career :)

So ... I think there is a good case to be made for expertise in stealth for a rogue :)

On the other hand, taking expertise in thieves tools is a much harder case to make.

[Naanomi]

Keep in mind it isn’t impossible to have a PC with passive perception in the 37+ Range, if you ever plan on sneaking past your own charmed party members and the like

[Kane0]

Variant Human for Magic Adept or Prodigy feat, pick or make a background that gives thief skills and tools, start with fighter (EK) levels and multiclass into AT rogue or wizard as you see fit.

[ATHATH]

Be a Bard; they gets ninth level spells, Expertise, and, with the right subclass and/or spells, martial competency.

[Rhedyn]

Title says it all. Obviously it would be Fighter-Wizard-Rogue, and we can stretch the definitions as far as people like (If barbarian and sorcerer work better, so be it). My only caveat is that the obvious choice- valor bard- is a bard, not a FMT (we had bards in both 1e and 2e, they were fine, but not the same thing). Goal is to capture the feel of the character you made BitD, while still being playable. Any thoughts?


My first thought would be Straight-up Eldritch Knight/Arcane Trickster (which probably would qualify without even any levels of wizard), or Champion Fighter/Thief Rogue/Evoker. But I'm sure some other archtypes would actually help more in capturing the concept.

Anyways, thought it would be a fun challenge.

1. High Elf Dex Duelist Fighter 1 Criminal/Spy Background (Start with a cantrip from race)
2. Fighter 1/Rogue 1
3. Fighter 1/Rogue 2
4. Fighter 2/Rogue 2
5. Eldritch Knight 3/Rogue 2
6. Eldritch Knight 4/Rogue 2
7. Eldritch Knight 5/Rogue 2
8. Eldritch Knight 5/Rogue 2/Wizard 1
...
20. Eldritch Knight 5/Rogue 2/Wizard (Any) 13

I think that's the best way to get as much as possible with multiclassing. You don't need that many rogue levels and Fighter gives all you need to properly martial by level 5. Then you keep layering on wizard magic as all your combat/skills improve naturally.

[Willie the Duck]

This would be easier to answer if you explained what you wanted from being a fighter/mage/thief. How much do you want to focus on spells? What kind of equipment do you want? What role do you want to fill for the party, in or out of combat?

This thread is a straight-up 'what would you do?' with the only goal of capturing the feel that a FMT had back when you played AD&D. Whatever and whereever that takes us.


I’m reluctant to give Fighter levels to this at all, since 2e wizards didn’t utilize armor at all (except specific magic items basically)


and there's nothing really stopping them from putting on armor as long as they don't try to cast spells while wearing armor. I don't remember how long it takes to don/doff armor though.


There's some real issue in this kind of discussion, as 1e and 2e had pretty divergent rules on multiclassing (such as casting in armor). As to armor don/doff time, I believe it was 1 minute per AC modification (distance from 10) of the base armor (so five rounds for chainmail, etc.).

[JumboWheat01]

Take the Eldritch Knight archetype for a Fighter, learn how to use Thieves' Tools, have Perception, and you're pretty much set. Sure, there's definitely more nuances to the Fighter/Mage/Thief than that, but really, it gives you fighting, magic and trap finding, picking and lock picking all right there, with no multiclass mess to worry about it. Add on Sleight of Hand if you want a bit more thieving, go Dex-based if you want more stealth.

[Zalabim]

The lack of ranger in this consideration is criminal, so I'm going to suggest a Criminal Gloom Stalker.

[Cwyll]

If the magic is more important to you, then bladesinger with the urchin, criminal or bounty hunter background.
If the fighting is more important then fighter (eldrich knight) and rogue (arcane trickster) in an even mix.
If the social side with decent magic and reasonable fighting is more important, then one of a variety of bards would work well.

[Arkhios]

Honestly? Eldritch Knight with Criminal background (or other background that) gives you proficiency to Thieves' tools, Stealth, and/or Sleight of Hand, which is all you really need to be a thief as well.

If it's backstabbing you prefer, Arcane Trickster is another, though then you would be restricted to only one regular attack per turn for your whole career (unless you multiclass).