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Rowanomicon
2007-09-20, 12:59 PM
I'm building this as a PC race.
I know it will have LA, but I'm not sure what.
I'm starting with the Jungle Dwarf variant and then making them large based on the Changes to Statistics by Size Table.
The one thing it doesn't say is how Speed is effected. I'm assuming +10 ft, please correct me if I'm wrong.

-+8 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +6 Constitution, -2 Charisma.

-Large: As Large creatures, large dwarves have -1 penalties to AC and Attack due to their size.

-Large Dwarf base land speed is 30 feet. However, large dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).

-Low-Light Vision: A large dwarf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.

-+2 bonus on Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (nature), and Survival checks

-Stability: A large dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).

-+2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.

-+2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.

-Automatic Languages: Common and Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon.

-LA: +2

GimliFett
2007-09-20, 01:05 PM
I'd have to say LA+2 or +3. Total combat cruncher.

They still get the dodge v. giants? Hmm...

Rowanomicon
2007-09-20, 02:07 PM
I figured that was more about training because of their hatred for giants, but maybe I should take that out.
Maybe I'll take the +1 attack vc orcs and goblin too.
I might also reduce the Str and Con bouses.

EDIT: some changes made. What do you think now?

Kyroswolf
2007-09-20, 02:48 PM
Might I suggest dropping the


-+2 bonus on Spot checks: Large dwarves have keen eyesight.

and



-Weapon Familiarity: Large dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.

The first because it doesn't fit what I personally see as a dwarf. The second because I would see them as developing their own weapons seperate from normally sized dwarves.

I can see the Low light rather than darkvision as large dwarves wouldn't fit underground as easily.

The changes might also help with your LA

Mephisto
2007-09-20, 02:54 PM
So your proposal is "Giant dwarf with a hammer"?

I think it needs a better name than large dwarf (which is an oxymoron)

Rowanomicon
2007-09-20, 02:59 PM
I dropped the spot and weapon familiarity.
The spot bonus was from the Jungle Dwarf variant.

I know "Large Dwarf" is an oxymoron, that's why I chose it for the name. I agree thought that it's not a good name for a race to be classed in game, but it works well enough out of character.

As to the hammer thing: I was actually going to play my large dwarf as an unarmed combatant, or perhaps with a short sword.

EvilElitest
2007-09-20, 06:13 PM
I'm building this as a PC race.
I know it will have LA, but I'm not sure what.
I'm starting with the Jungle Dwarf variant and then making them large based on the Changes to Statistics by Size Table.
The one thing it doesn't say is how Speed is effected. I'm assuming +10 ft, please correct me if I'm wrong.

-+6 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +6 Constitution, -2 Charisma.

-Large: As Large creatures, large dwarves have -1 penalties to AC and Attack due to their size.

-Large Dwarf base land speed is 30 feet. However, large dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).

-Low-Light Vision: A large dwarf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.

-+2 Natural Armor

-+2 bonus on Heal, Knowledge (nature), and Survival checks: Large dwarves know a great deal about what lives in the jungle, and are adept at finding it (or avoiding it, as the case may be).

-Stability: A large dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).

-+2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.

-+2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.

-Automatic Languages: Common and Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon.

-LA: ? (please suggest an LA)
Large dwarf? How does that work?
from,
EE

Rowanomicon
2007-09-20, 07:00 PM
Well I know it's an oxymoron because outside the fantasy genre the word dwarf means small, but inside the fantasy genre the word dwarf refers to a specific race of beings.

So this is a larger sub-race of dwarf.

JackMage666
2007-09-20, 07:04 PM
Unless it's a comedy campaign, an oxymoron name isn't a winning point.

It's either a +3 LA, or a 2 HD, +2 LA. Take your pick.

Rowanomicon
2007-09-20, 07:52 PM
Racial HD are the single worst thing a PC race could have. They are simply not an option.
Besides who in their right mind would choose to lose 4 class levels rather than 3?
I'd like to get this to an LA+2 race.
If the Str and Con bonuses were both +4 would that be put it down to LA+2?
What if the natural armor were also reduced to +1?
What if I got rid of the bonus vs spells and spell like effects too?

I'm gonna get rid of the +2 vs poison.

JackMage666
2007-09-20, 07:55 PM
Racial HD are the single worst thing a PC race could have. They are simply not an option.
Besides who in their right mind would choose to lose 4 class levels rather than 3?
I'd like to get this to an LA+2 race.
If the Str and Con bonuses were both +4 would that be put it down to LA+2?
What if the natural armor were also reduced to +1?
What if I got rid of the bonus vs spells and spell like effects too?

I'm gonna get rid of the +2 vs poison.

LA is worse than Racial HD. In an ECL 4 game, would you rather have 2 HD or 1 class level? Racial HD at least provide HP, Skills, Saves, and BAB. LA provides nothing.

If you eliminated natural armor, it would reduce LA to +2, though, probably.

Rowanomicon
2007-09-20, 08:12 PM
So you figure if I left the abilities as is and left the +2 vs spells/spell-like abilities, but lost the natural armor then it's be LA+2.
If I kept the natural armor what would I have to lose to bring the LA down to +2? I figure the bonus vs spells/spell-like abilities doesn't really come into play. How much would I have to reduce the Str and Con bonuses?
Keeping in mind I'd rather keep an Str bonus than a Con bonus, but I need to keep the Con bonus as at least +2 (it is a dwarf after all) and probably +4 (it is large after all).

JackMage666
2007-09-20, 08:16 PM
If the ability scores are unbalanced in favor of the PC, then it's +1 LA.

Large size makes +1 LA.

And Natural Armor (any) gets +1 LA.

Those are your main issues.

Rowanomicon
2007-09-20, 09:01 PM
Right, so there's no way I'll bring the abilities down to a point where they're not over all better than average and the race is Large, so basically I have to lose the natural armor. Sounds fair.
I'll do some Editing and you can tell me what you think.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-20, 10:47 PM
If the ability scores are unbalanced in favor of the PC, then it's +1 LA.

Large size makes +1 LA.

And Natural Armor (any) gets +1 LA.

Those are your main issues.

I would say that last one needs tweaking. Natural Armour less than 3 is generally not going to break anything. It's about the difference between any 2 armours in the same weight category, or about the difference between 2 adjacent weights of armour.

Rowanomicon
2007-09-20, 11:50 PM
Wait, so you don't think NA+2 is worth another LA?
Do you think that the race is LA+2 as it is now and plus NA+2?

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-21, 12:10 AM
What justifies the skill bonuses? Intimidate sure, although the combination of size+Skill bonus more than counters Charisma. I just don't feel it for the other skill bonuses.

The bonus vs Spells and Spell-likes? Bear in mind here, a +2 save is the equivalent of a 1 level dip in any class with a good progression. Apart from Spells and Spell-like Abilities, you really only use saving throws against Poison, Disease, and certain other nasty stuff that is seldom encountered nearly as often as the former 2. +1 I could see. +2 may be a bit much. If you want the Natural Armour, I would probably suggest dropping this by/to +1.

JackMage666
2007-09-21, 12:22 AM
The +2 Saves is only against Spells/Spell-Like abilities - Yeah, it still encompasses alot, but not everything.

Rowanomicon
2007-09-21, 12:31 AM
The skills (except Intimidate which I added in because it fits) came from The Jungle Dwarf variant, basically in exchange for Stonecunning.

I left them in there because they add non-combat flavour and while this race is clearly going to very good at combat it's nice to not totally ignore everything else.

The bonus vs spells/spell-like abilities is just a train of dwarves. I'd like to keep it in there to keep this race clearly related to dwarves. I'm not adverse to reducing it to +1 though.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-21, 03:23 AM
The skills (except Intimidate which I added in because it fits) came from The Jungle Dwarf variant, basically in exchange for Stonecunning.

I left them in there because they add non-combat flavour and while this race is clearly going to very good at combat it's nice to not totally ignore everything else.

The bonus vs spells/spell-like abilities is just a train of dwarves. I'd like to keep it in there to keep this race clearly related to dwarves. I'm not adverse to reducing it to +1 though.

The main thing being that unless it lives in the same sorts of environments as the Jungle Dwarf, the fluff and crunch don't quite match up for the skills.

Rowanomicon
2007-09-21, 11:37 AM
Well, yes I do plan for them live in a jungle/rainforest type environment.

Kaelaroth
2007-09-21, 12:44 PM
Give 'em a nice Dwarvish name...

Khazrak?

Machete
2007-09-21, 02:07 PM
Needs a big Intelligence penalty to be balanced.

Rowanomicon
2007-09-21, 05:37 PM
Well I might give it -2 to Int, but I'm certainly not looking to build a race that is less intelligent than your average half-orc.

Rowanomicon
2007-09-22, 11:59 AM
I hate bumping, but I'm doing it this once because I figure the race is finished and I'd like it to go through one more round of scrutiny before I put it into play.

PS: If for any reason you think any amount of natural Armor could be added in without raising the LA to +3 please say so.

DracoDei
2007-09-22, 12:16 PM
If they are supposed to have anything of the skill with making things that there smaller cousins have I wouldn't recommend the intelligence penalty.

Rowanomicon
2007-09-22, 01:10 PM
Yeah I opted to not impose and intelligence penalty.

Logic
2007-09-22, 03:15 PM
I also have a subrace of Dwarves in my campaign, and the common translation of their name given to them by non-large sized dwarves is "Tallbrother."

The mechanics seem all right, but the STR bonus could stand to go down a little. Maybe to just +4.

As it is written, I could see it as a +3 LA.

Rowanomicon
2007-09-22, 03:27 PM
I don't know, I mean if humans got Large sized they'd have +8 to Strength. It doesn't seem right for this race to be 4 points weaker than that...

In other words average strength for a Large humanoid is 18, so if a race was 14 on average then it's be like being a Medium race with 6 Strength.

I understand a give or take of +2 to even things out.
The Halfling for instant only has -2 Str while the difference between Small and Medium is 4 points. So Halflings actually have +2 Strength for a Small race.

So I can see the Strength bonus being reduced to +6 and/or the Con bonus being reduced to +4, but anything less would be shortchanging this race.

Logic
2007-09-22, 06:26 PM
So I can see the Strength bonus being reduced to +6 and/or the Con bonus being reduced to +4, but anything less would be shortchanging this race.

Would you rather shortchange the race, or the player that wants to play this race?

Rowanomicon
2007-09-22, 07:29 PM
Neither.
When homebrewing this race I don't want to short change the race.
If a player came to me saying "I want to play the race except with/without..." then I'd probably let them change what they wanted.

I don't really get where you're coming from with that though.

Logic
2007-09-22, 10:16 PM
LA=Bad. No matter how much. Unless you make the "Buyback" feature available.

Basically, you allow a character that has hit X ECL to permanantly lose Y XP points to lower his LA (and his ECL) by one. You can continue to do this, but not all at once. Check Unearthed Arcana for more complete details.

Rowanomicon
2007-09-23, 12:09 AM
I know hoe LA buyoff works and I almost always allow it when I DM.

krossbow
2007-09-23, 12:51 AM
They should be the natural enemies of giant midgets. :smallwink:

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-23, 07:47 AM
Midget Giants you mean. The size comes first, then the race.:smalltongue:

Rowanomicon
2007-09-23, 01:35 PM
Ah yes, the epic war between the Large sized Dwarves and the Medium sized Giants. It was almost as horrific as the Medium Giants' battle against the Colossal Halflings.

EvilElitest
2007-09-23, 02:33 PM
Any fluff on these guys, oh and Colossal Halflings are a race in my games from now on
from,
EE

Rowanomicon
2007-09-23, 05:48 PM
Fluff will definitely com, but don't hold your breath; it may be a while.

I should homebrew a race of big Halflings when I'm done with this, or perhaps giant gnomes, or small giants.