Grell?

[danielxcutter]

Okay, recently I've been reading Lords of Madness, and I took another look at the Grell. Honestly, there isn't terribly much to see, fluff-wise, because it's explicitly stated that they pretty much have zilch motivation for WORLD DOMINATIONTM and thus don't exactly make for thrilling campaign villains.

There are a few interesting things I've noticed re-reading that part though. Their (greater) lightning lances honestly hurt a lot, especially if there are a bunch of grell mooks shooting them at the PCs at the same time - sure hope they've got defenses against electricity damage! - but what really catches my eye is their natural attacks.


Full Attack: 10 tentacles +5 melee (1d4+1 plus paralyzation)
and bite +0 melee (1d6) or lightning lance +5 ranged touch
(3d6 electricity)

(emphasis mine)

That is friggin' ridiculous, especially since the typical grell is only CR 3. The paralyzation DC starts out as 10 but increases by 1 for each successful hit with a tentacle, which can go up fast.

With the right build, feats, and maybe items, I think you can make a surprisingly dangerous grell. Martial classes could work, and it's also worth remembering that casting classes are non-associated.

How about this grell patriarch, for example?

HD 12: Flyby Attack, Power Attack, Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, Ability Focus(paralysis)
Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll(b)
Wizard 2
Wizard 3: Rapidstrike(tentacle)
Wizard 4
Wizard 5: Grell Alchemy(b)
Wizard 6: Extend Spell
Wizard 7
Wizard 8
Wizard 9: Multiattack
Wizard 10: Quicken Spell(b)
Wizard 11
Wizard 12: Improved Rapidstrike(tentacle)

With 32 point-buy, two ioun stones, and an Amulet of Health +2, stats are 24/14/22/24/13/12, though it uses up a good chunk of WBL. Tentacle attacks have +21/+16/+11 to hit, beak has +19. Paralysis 20 + 1 for each additional tentacle attack that lands.

Obviously, this is a very rough idea of what could be pulled off; I'm sure the optimizers of this forum can make much better builds.

Well... thoughts?

[daremetoidareyo]

Martial Wizard acf, trade scribe scroll for a fighter feat.

[Mike Miller]

Without double checking it's stat block, I only have a few comments. First, did you plan on changing its ability scores? (Edit: just reread the 32 point buy comment. That is higher stats than monsters normally. Even with PC class levels) Usually a monster with PC class levels has the elite array.
Second, does the grell even advance with class levels? I thought it was by HD. So this is just for funsies.
Third, the non-associated class levels bit is just for figuring CR. If you give this thing 12 wizard levels, it isn't a grell anymore so much as it is a wizard...

[Nifft]

Second, does the grell even advance with class levels? I thought it was by HD. So this is just for funsies.


The whole game is "just for funsies".


But it seems like you're implying that advancing a Grell by something other than RHD is against the rules, and in that implication you are wrong:

https://image.ibb.co/iLN12A/Screen-Shot-2018-11-22-at-8-39-58-AM.png (https://imgbb.com/)

Grell advance by HD or class; the example Grell Patriarch is explicitly advanced as a Wizard.

[Mike Miller]

The whole game is "just for funsies".


But it seems like you're implying that advancing a Grell by something other than RHD is against the rules, and in that implication you are wrong:

https://image.ibb.co/iLN12A/Screen-Shot-2018-11-22-at-8-39-58-AM.png (https://imgbb.com/)

Grell advance by HD or class; the example Grell Patriarch is explicitly advanced as a Wizard.

I did preface this with saying I didn't check the stat block... Also, if you get a group of people that do things RAW then certain monsters will never have class levels.

[Blackhawk748]

The Grell don't really want World Domination. They wanna eat stuff. The divide the world into things that can't be eaten, things that eat them, and lunch (everything else). From there you get two broad types of Grell, Civilised and Feral. Civilized get the lightning guns, feral are generally more devious. These paths broadly determine their advancement. Feral go HD and Civil go class levels.

Now, as for optimization paths, just focus them on their potent natural weapons and native ambjsh tactics. Rogue, Ninja and Scout all have places and supporting them with a Wizard is disgusting. If you wanna be a real jerk make one a Barbarian and just go to town with the Whirling Tentacle Death Machine.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I threw about six grells (split into three pairs, not all engaging at once) at a party of four optimized PCs (and animal companions) when they were around 4th or 5th level. They were going up a set of stairs that spiraled around the inside wall of a tower, the top of the stairs opening up into the top floor. Everyone but the bard ran in and started fighting them, he stayed on the stairs where he thought he was safe. A pair of grells floated down above him and managed to paralyze him, everyone else kept doing their own thing for the turn, nobody came to help. The next round, one delivered a CDG with its beak, right into the top of his head, but he survived.

Everyone freaked out about how close his character came to dying, the guy who was DMing for the group previously was extremely soft on us. Of course someone rushed over and defended him until the paralysis wore off, but that player continually made poor choices, and everyone blamed it on his character getting beaked in the head.

[Kish]

Is this grell supposed to be a PC or an NPC? The references to "point buy" and "WBL" indicate the former, but I'm pretty sure that grell would be pretty weak for a PC of its ECL (assuming the extremely high point buy is standard for your campaigns).

[Thurbane]

Imagine if a Grell took a level in Soul Eater, assuming you use the more permissive reading of the Energy Drain (that it works on every natural attack). :smalleek:

[Florian]

That is friggin' ridiculous, especially since the typical grell is only CR 3. The paralyzation DC starts out as 10 but increases by 1 for each successful hit with a tentacle, which can go up fast.

Imagine what fun we had playing the original RtToEE, where the Grell shows up in 3E. Yes, the attack happens when the characters are on an open and slow escalator on their way down to a mine....

[Maat Mons]

It's about time for Thanksgiving dinner here. And, I haven't actually read the whole thread. But when festivities are done, I'll try to scrounge up that grell kensai NPC I musing over so long ago. It dealt 2 con damage on each of those 10 attacks.

[Thurbane]

Just a reminder: the Improved Paralysis feat (+4 DC) stacks with the Ability Focus feat (+2 DC), if you really want to concentrate on paralysing folk...

[danielxcutter]

The Grell don't really want World Domination. They wanna eat stuff. The divide the world into things that can't be eaten, things that eat them, and lunch (everything else). From there you get two broad types of Grell, Civilised and Feral. Civilized get the lightning guns, feral are generally more devious. These paths broadly determine their advancement. Feral go HD and Civil go class levels.

Now, as for optimization paths, just focus them on their potent natural weapons and native ambjsh tactics. Rogue, Ninja and Scout all have places and supporting them with a Wizard is disgusting. If you wanna be a real jerk make one a Barbarian and just go to town with the Whirling Tentacle Death Machine.

I dunno about a grell Scout unless it gets some sort of Pounce ability or whatever, but otherwise... :smalleek:


I threw about six grells (split into three pairs, not all engaging at once) at a party of four optimized PCs (and animal companions) when they were around 4th or 5th level. They were going up a set of stairs that spiraled around the inside wall of a tower, the top of the stairs opening up into the top floor. Everyone but the bard ran in and started fighting them, he stayed on the stairs where he thought he was safe. A pair of grells floated down above him and managed to paralyze him, everyone else kept doing their own thing for the turn, nobody came to help. The next round, one delivered a CDG with its beak, right into the top of his head, but he survived.

Everyone freaked out about how close his character came to dying, the guy who was DMing for the group previously was extremely soft on us. Of course someone rushed over and defended him until the paralysis wore off, but that player continually made poor choices, and everyone blamed it on his character getting beaked in the head.

Oof.


Is this grell supposed to be a PC or an NPC? The references to "point buy" and "WBL" indicate the former, but I'm pretty sure that grell would be pretty weak for a PC of its ECL (assuming the extremely high point buy is standard for your campaigns).

Uh, er, technically NPC, but it's a thought exercise more than anything?


Imagine if a Grell took a level in Soul Eater, assuming you use the more permissive reading of the Energy Drain (that it works on every natural attack). :smalleek:

:eek:


Imagine what fun we had playing the original RtToEE, where the Grell shows up in 3E. Yes, the attack happens when the characters are on an open and slow escalator on their way down to a mine....

What's the RtToEE? Also yeah, yikes.


It's about time for Thanksgiving dinner here. And, I haven't actually read the whole thread. But when festivities are done, I'll try to scrounge up that grell kensai NPC I musing over so long ago. It dealt 2 con damage on each of those 10 attacks.

...wat.


Just a reminder: the Improved Paralysis feat (+4 DC) stacks with the Ability Focus feat (+2 DC), if you really want to concentrate on paralysing folk...

:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

[Kish]

Uh, er, technically NPC, but it's a thought exercise more than anything?

If you give an NPC the same stats and WBL as a PC, it's going to be really powerful. This is especially the case when that point buy is extremely high and the creature in question is low-CR (take a CR 3 melee creature and pump its Strength massively, effectively removing the feature "can be expected to miss a great deal," and it's not really a CR 3 creature anymore, even against PCs with the same high point buy), though I recognize this applies to modifying the default grell while leaving its CR alone but not to your grell wizard.


What's the RtToEE? Also yeah, yikes.

Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. I have it...somewhere. Never read it.

[Thurbane]

Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. I have it...somewhere. Never read it.

Pretty sure there's a Grell somewhere in Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk as well - first and only time I've fought Grell in 3E, AFAIK.

Worked out well, I was a Dragon Shaman (immune to paralysis). :smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

Read part of that. Got the impression it hinges on caring about a whole lot of characters who I...don't (not in a positive way, anyway; it's probably just as well Gygax and I never met).

[danielxcutter]

If you give an NPC the same stats and WBL as a PC, it's going to be really powerful. This is especially the case when that point buy is extremely high and the creature in question is low-CR (take a CR 3 melee creature and pump its Strength massively, effectively removing the feature "can be expected to miss a great deal," and it's not really a CR 3 creature anymore, even against PCs with the same high point buy), though I recognize this applies to modifying the default grell while leaving its CR alone but not to your grell wizard.

The grell patriarch I made would be CR 12 with NPC WBL, or CR 13 with PC WBL. Probably quite a bit more powerful than most 12th-level Wizards though yeah. The patriarch would likely be one of - if not the, period - monster in the encounter anyways, and by a considerable margin.

Standard grell without class levels would just use the base statblock; the patriarch is basically a boss or miniboss, what with all those class levels and stuff. Can't find the source(it wasn't Urpriest's handbook; I checked) and don't remember the exact wording, but I remember reading something like "Timmy the troll wizard is fine as a boss, but a village full of Timmys isn't a good idea" or something like that. In short, a lair featuring the grell patriarch I made might have standard grell and grell philosophers with considerably less RHD and class levels as well, but none as powerful as the patriarch.


Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. I have it...somewhere. Never read it.

Ah, I've heard of that. Has something to with Tharizdun, right? Huh... it says in Lords of Madness that some rare grell philosophers become clerics of Tharizdun.

[Maat Mons]

...wat.

Actually, forget that Grell Kensai thing. I've got a better idea. Just slap on the Spectral Creature template (Dragons of Faerun, p109). That turns each natural weapon into an incorporeal touch attack that bestows two negative levels.

So 20 negative levels per round. And it's only CR 6.

[danielxcutter]

Actually, forget that Grell Kensai thing. I've got a better idea. Just slap on the Spectral Creature template (Dragons of Faerun, p109). That turns each natural weapon into an incorporeal touch attack that bestows two negative levels.

So 20 negative levels per round. And it's only CR 6.

*checks*

Sovereign Host, it does actually work like that! :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

[Maat Mons]

Okay, I just inspected the thread more carefully. It turns out Thurbane beat me to the Energy Drain idea.

But I like my method more, because it's an acquired template. And, because of the Create Spawn ability, if one Grell gets it, there'll be a whole city of Spectral Grell in no time at all.

[danielxcutter]

Okay, I just inspected the thread more carefully. It turns out Thurbane beat me to the Energy Drain idea.

But I like my method more, because it's an acquired template. And, because of the Create Spawn ability, if one Grell gets it, there'll be a whole city of Spectral Grell in no time at all.

Thurbane also mentions that it requires the more "permissive" reading; so it's not water-tight, but Spectral Creatures really do work like that, so probably better.

Yikes. :smalleek:

[Crake]

Personally I'm more a fan of the "Get multigrab and have one grell grappling the entire party with 2 tentacles each"

Multigrab plus expert grappler means no penalty for grappling with just one tentacle, get improved grapple, plus their +10 racial bonus, give them a level of psionic warrior for the expansion power, and two levels of totemist for girallon arms, with 2 essentia, giving another +14 overall (4 size, 4 improved grapple, 6 girallon arms).

by that point, 6 bab, 18 strength (if you use elite array, 15 base, +2 racial, +1 from level 8) gives 10 grapple, plus 24 from racial+ extra, resulting in a whopping +34 grapple as a CR6 opponent, if we claim that all the classes are associated classes.

in a party of 5, each person can be grappled individually by 2 tentacles, automatic pin and constrict unless the player has at least +16 grapple, which means a DC12 paralysis check every round for each party member, they'll get paralyzed eventually, right? :smalltongue:

I guess at this point you're not really focusing on paralysis though, are you. More like mercilessly crushing your players.

[ATHATH]

Wait, these things are Aberrations- Druids with the Aberration Wild Shape feat can turn into them.

I mean, there are probably better options in some obscure splat book somewhere, but dang, this is a pretty good form.

[Crake]

Wait, these things are Aberrations- Druids with the Aberration Wild Shape feat can turn into them.

I mean, there are probably better options in some obscure splat book somewhere, but dang, this is a pretty good form.

Except their flight and blindsight is an ex special quaility, so you'd be flopping about at 5ft, completely blind. Though funnily enough, their sightless special ability is also an ex special quality, though it doesn't change the fact that the form has no eyes, so you'd be blind.

[Fizban]

Full Attack: 10 tentacles +5 melee (1d4+1 plus paralyzation). . .
That is friggin' ridiculous, especially since the typical grell is only CR 3.
Pfft, that's nothing new. Carrion Crawlers already have 8 tentacles with paralysis. . . and no damage. . . at CR 4. With no flight, zap guns, blindsight, or constrict, only 2/3 the hp

Okay, Carrion Crawlers may be weak but that is pretty ridiculous. The zap guns were a new addition, don't know where they came from but they weren't in the MM2 statblock.

Upon reflection, many of the aberrations in Lords of Madness annoy me. Too much "waaah lovecraft and aberrations= beyond your comprehension= better than you and lasers and blackjack and. . . " I think it's all down to control aspects. Aboleths and Beholders are very specifically set up as monsters that live deep down and can't stand anyone, making the underdark a scary place but that's it. Most of the rest have some sort of mind control which naturally means they must be so awesome because they just auto-slave everything and blah blah.

Except for Grell, which have. . . ? No innate magic, just the justification of "oh they came from some other plane." The fluff goes on about portals and colonizing other planes, except in order to do that they need massively high level wizards. Which is at least what it says they like to level up as, but the examples never reach that level. As a fully predatory species (and a large one at that), they can't support the cities required to generate casters of that caliber with anything other than fiat. Their "shock lances" are clearly cheating to get the range on that Shocking Grasp effect with that price, and the "silverlance" is literally just a +2 lance that transfers poison for free because reasons.

So Grell offend me less than Mind Flayers or Neogi. Tsochar just seem pointless, even more written as having some big mysterious society with ruling castes and high level casters with no justification. Still predatory, and with a whole body stealing thing that has no purpose- their bodies are already powerful enough, they apparently learn spellcasting just fine, they have issues permanently inhabiting and can't permanently replace people. The most significant use for their ability would be hiding in big powerful creatures, but they have to be smart enough to coerce via threats, and the body snatcher still takes damage so they're still vulnerable. You know what's an effective "take over the world via body snatching" monster? Puppeteers. Except they aren't full of body horror and a population covered in puppeteers works pretty much as normal aside from the formality of the hosts' minds having no control.

Yeerks still take the cake for mind control parasite race. Just enough body horror from crawling in through your ears, while the fact that they're constantly leaving and re-entering means the host is constantly re-experiencing the misery of having the body taken away. And none of the questions about how present the mind is under various supernatural enchantments half of which say you see the slaver as your friend, the books are quite clear about what it's like for Controllers.
Anyway. "Civilized" Grell are bogus but "feral" grell are a decent enough aberration with a few too many tentacles.

[Maat Mons]

Except their flight and blindsight is an ex special quaility, so you'd be flopping about at 5ft, completely blind.

Yeah, you'd probably have to hold off until 7th level, when you can cast Enhance Wild Shape. And even then, you'd have to weigh the benefits of the form against the expenditure of one of your highest-level spell slots.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, you'd probably have to hold off until 7th level, when you can cast Enhance Wild Shape. And even then, you'd have to weigh the benefits of the form against the expenditure of one of your highest-level spell slots.

Plus grell stats are kinda... terrible. Really.

[ksbsnowowl]

I ran a grell plot arc a couple years back. The party had set about looking for some thieves that had robbed a mining shipment of jade, and in the process of clearing out their cave hideout, poured cold water on a fire... that was built over an ancient dwarven plug sealing a circular stairwell down. The quick temperature change cracked the plug, and they realized there was something under it.

Long story short, they fought their way down past some grell hatchlings, through some abandoned dwarven mines, and had a decent foray against a few grell adults. The next week one of the players couldn't come, and the party pressed on into the main cavern... Things were going badly for the party before the colony's patriarch showed up. TPK (aside from the missing player, whose character was "out guarding the horses.")

My players HATE grell, now.

They came back a few levels later (level 9) and just wiped the floor with the grell colony. In that respect, grell are really hard to CR properly. They seem extremely difficult for a CR 3 (IIRC, my party took them on initially at 5th level, generally encountering adults in pairs [EL 5]), but with the grell near-swarming against even a 9th level party (that was prepared, admittedly) they were ineffectual and got slaughtered.

At least they toned down the paralysis poison in 3.5 (in LoM there is only one save per round, with a scaling DC based upon the number of successful attacks). In 3.0 each individual tentacle attack required its own save versus poison... You'll roll a 1 eventually. (That RttToEE encounter with 3.0 grell is just brutal.) On the flip side, for my campaign, the 3.5 stats were overly easy because we were using Tome of Battle, and the PC's had already started to get the Concentration check in place of Fort save maneuvers; that's a big part of what helped them curb-stomp the grell a few levels later.

[Fizban]

In terms of combat ability, I have to figure my own experience was atypical. When my party encountered the Grell in RttToEE, it was a complete non-issue. I don't think anyone even got hit, let alone paralyzed. Either the Grell lost initiative, or after it whiffed it's move+attack on turn one we one-rounded it.

That said, they only have 30 some hit points. The 10 tentacles only matter for a standing full attack and they've got less hp than a proper bruiser like a dire wolf. Unless you're weak and cornered or stumble into it, the party should have good odds of bringing it below half in a single round even if they don't kill it outright. A perfectly exaggerated example of the expected difference between full attacks and move+attacks.

Having thought about it, I'd move these to the Easy if Handled Properly category. As long as you keep moving to prevent full attacks, the Grell only gets two attacks per round and it's about on par with a standard Ghast. It is only if you let it full attack, or the DM deliberately sets up a situation where you can't avoid being full attacked (thus warranting an xp bonus for extra difficulty), than the 3.0 Grell becomes particularly dangerous. The 3.5 version has its snowflake zap gun to pressure you at range, but the limit on paralysis saves makes the full attack less dangerous and they drastically reduced the save DC at the same time. So the 3.5 version has been modded into less of a gotcha and more of a mid-range.

[Thurbane]

Hmm, never noticed before that in the LoM update, the tentacles don't call for multiple saves any more, like they did back in MM2...

It's a significant nerf, but probably more in line with a CR 3 monster.

Carrion Crawlers can force 8 saves per round...

[danielxcutter]

Hmm, never noticed before that in the LoM update, the tentacles don't call for multiple saves any more, like they did back in MM2...

It's a significant nerf, but probably more in line with a CR 3 monster.

Carrion Crawlers can force 8 saves per round...

The save can still go up fast if the grell can get a lot of hits in. Such as the Rapidstrike line or just a good enough to-hit.