Swordsage with a Shield [3.5]

[Temotei]

Quick question: What would you consider a fair trade for shield proficiency and the ability to use a shield with AC bonus for a swordsage?

[Nifft]

Pay the feat for proficiency, and I'd allow shields to work with your AC bonus.

[DeTess]

In my game, I might introduce some limit on the AC bonus you can get from WIS if you're using a shield on a swordsage (in the same way some armor has a 'max DEX bonus' limit), but that's about it. You're paying a feat, so you should gain some of the benefits.

[Temotei]

What about in the case of a swordsage who dips into something else for proficiency or has proficiency from racial Hit Dice?

[DeTess]

It's till paying a relevant cost to get the proficiency.

To add some numbers to my previous suggestion: light shields have a +5 max WIS bonus to AC, heavy have a +3 max WIS bonus, tower shields don't work with the WIS bonus at all, and bucklers are not restricted.

I'd also tell the player I'd adjust these numbers up or down if it looked particularly under or over-powered, but that I would discuss the details with them if I believed a nerf to be necessary.

[Techwarrior]

Personally, I wouldn't disallow it from a power standpoint. AC is a very finite resource as far as how much of it is useful. If you are hard to hit, most intelligent creatures will simply choose another party member relatively quickly. Further, in order for it be *useful,* you have to first have enough that the shield is a relevant bonus. By this I mean that going from an AC where everything hits on a 3, to everything hits on a 7 isn't very relevant, whereas going from being hit on a 9 to being hit on a 14 is much much better.

At low levels, when AC is most important, you're using a resource (feat, effective levels, etc) to get shield proficiency in order to gain a +2 or +3 at most. Further, Swordsages aren't proficient in anything above Light armor to begin with, so in order for this AC to be good, they have to have enough Dexterity to get to their AC bonus cap while still having enough Wisdom for the class feature itself to be relevant. Neither of these affect their damage without even more build resources invested. Therefore, they're doing baseline Swordsage damage, which is still respectable, but they are now the BSF instead of the glass cannon.

Flavor-wise, the wary duelist who fights with buckler and rapier is a cool idea that many a player has wanted to execute at some point. I'm a big fan of the idea that you should facilitate your players doing things that are cool and fun.

I personally would not allow the ability to extend to Tower shields, and perhaps not even heavy, and I most certainly would not allow for cheeky 'it has no ACP' to get around needing proficiency for their Wisdom bonus to work.

[heavyfuel]

Sword and Board isn't a weak combat style because shields are bad. It's a weak combat style because it locks you out of 2-handed weapons, which have much higher damage because of how Power Attack works.

For Martial Initiators, while PA is still a very welcome source of extra damage, they don't rely on PA to deal damage, so they work great with Sword & Board. Swordsages, with their 3/4 BAB, really don't give a damn about PA.

Swordsages want to go either Unarmed or Free Handed or TWF (if they focus on Tiger Claw). So shields are absolutely amazing for them, especially since you can TWF with a shield if you so want.

With this in mind, I wouldn't simply allow for shields. An essentially free +2 to AC that stacks with most things, serves as another magic item slot, and increases with level is better than a few Stances. So I'd let them pick Shield Proficiency/Use at the cost of their lv 2 Stance and Maneuver Known