Elder Eidolon template?

[danielxcutter]

In Lords of Madness, there's a template called Elder Eidolon. It's basically a template for making constructs that are based on certain monsters.

Does anyone have ideas how to select creatures that make good Elder Eidolons? Any aberration, animal, dragon, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, plant, or vermin can be used as the base creature, but I assume that not all of those benefit that much...

[Bronk]

In Lords of Madness, there's a template called Elder Eidolon. It's basically a template for making constructs that are based on certain monsters.

Does anyone have ideas how to select creatures that make good Elder Eidolons? Any aberration, animal, dragon, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, plant, or vermin can be used as the base creature, but I assume that not all of those benefit that much...

Well... it's a construct, so extra size equals a bigger hit point bonus, and you'd want to be at least large to get two slams instead of one.

You'd want a form with a lot of natural and weapon attacks, because it keeps those, and a lot of feats that improve its attacks, because it keeps those too.

You'd want something strong, tough, and armored, because it has a bonus to those.

I'd say, something like a dragon (up to colossal size, lose the breath weapon, but keep a lot of natural attacks, and a DM would get to choose the feats) or a marilith (up to huge, lose poison, but lots of weapon attacks, get to keep constrict and improved grab, and lots of attack themed feats to keep).

Edit: Make that a half dragon marilith, which changes type to dragon to qualify for the template. This offers extra strength, con, wings, and an additional bite attack.

[danielxcutter]

Well... it's a construct, so extra size equals a bigger hit point bonus, and you'd want to be at least large to get two slams instead of one.

You'd want a form with a lot of natural and weapon attacks, because it keeps those, and a lot of feats that improve its attacks, because it keeps those too.

You'd want something strong, tough, and armored, because it has a bonus to those.

I'd say, something like a dragon (up to colossal size, lose the breath weapon, but keep a lot of natural attacks, and a DM would get to choose the feats) or a marilith (up to huge, lose poison, but lots of weapon attacks, get to keep constrict and improved grab, and lots of attack themed feats to keep).

I get what you mean, but the specific examples you've given don't actually work. For one, unlike many similar templates, Elder Eidolons recalculate their BAB and saves for their construct HD, so dragons and outsiders(full BAB) kinda lose out. Second, mariliths are outsiders, which actually makes them invalid choices for the template.

[DrMotives]

Hydra, chimera, & thessylmonsters would all be good choices. The tarrasque, maybe.

[danielxcutter]

Hydra, chimera, & thessylmonsters would all be good choices. The tarrasque, maybe.

..."thessylmonsters"?

[Bronk]

I get what you mean, but the specific examples you've given don't actually work. For one, unlike many similar templates, Elder Eidolons recalculate their BAB and saves for their construct HD, so dragons and outsiders(full BAB) kinda lose out. Second, mariliths are outsiders, which actually makes them invalid choices for the template.

Good call. Make it a half-dragon marilith. Now it's tougher, stronger, and also gains wings and a bite attack.

As for the BAB and Saves, those'll end up the same for anything of equal HD.

[danielxcutter]

Good call. Make it a half-dragon marilith. Now it's tougher, stronger, and also gains wings and a bite attack.

As for the BAB and Saves, those'll end up the same for anything of equal HD.

Equal construct HD. Which have all poor saves and average BAB.

[Bronk]

Equal construct HD. Which have all poor saves and average BAB.

Well yeah, the Eidolon will be weaker than the original for most base monsters, not just because of that but from losing the mental scores, non fighting feats, supernatural abilities, spellcasting, etc., but still strong for a construct.

The hydra that was brought up is a great idea too, but its fort save is going to be knocked right down for the same reason.

[danielxcutter]

Well yeah, the Eidolon will be weaker than the original for most base monsters, not just because of that but from losing the mental scores, non fighting feats, supernatural abilities, spellcasting, etc., but still strong for a construct.

The hydra that was brought up is a great idea too, but its fort save is going to be knocked right down for the same reason.

Basically, Elder Eidolons are beatsticks. Plain and simple, right?

[Fizban]

You want monsters with as few special attacks or special qualities to lose as possible, only the physical Ex attacks- constrict, rend, pounce, etc. No monsters that rely on special qualities, because those are all lost. Depending on DM or PC use you want either high or low numbers of hit dice, but either way you want a monster that does not rely on its con score for hit points. And of course, plenty of base strength and natural weapons. In particular, you want natural weapons which use the full strength modifier. Anything that has lots of HD and full BAB (dragons, magical beasts, and monstrous humanoids) is going to be much less effective than expected, while those that had lower BAB and fewer abilities will be better.

But remember: that +8 strength is only +4 damage even on full str attacks. This is not a template that significantly increases offense, and focusing only offense will never work. It's a defensive template with a net +10 AC, magic immunity, and fast healing. Focus on monsters that lose nothing and whose defenses will become the most effective. If your game is one where battles are over in a round or two and AC and DR and "magic immunity" are assumed to be bypassed all the time, then this is not a template you should be using- if you do you'll need to make up your own CR 'cause most of the template doesn't even matter.

Hydras are common suggestions, but hydras rely very heavily on their magical beast BAB and actually have pretty bad attacks in spite of appling full str on every bite and having the standard action "full attack." Hydras are also huge, which makes them more expensive and cumbersome. Dragons are about the same, with large dragons having plenty of full str attacks and flight, but losing dragon BAB. These aren't bad, but they aren't interesting or particularly synergistic.

Giants on the other hand go quite well. Giant BAB is already at 3/4, so you don't lose any, but you still gain a bunch of strength and can use up to 1.5x on all those iterative attacks. An Elder Eidolon giant is pretty much nothing but upside: same BAB, more str, more AC, same weapon and rock attacks, added DR and fast healing and confusion and magic immunity. Unfortunately they do lose hit points, but some of that is almost unavoidable at this size. When picking giants, those with just enough BAB for their next iterative attack are strongest (Fire over Frost for example, and Skullcrusher Ogre over Hill).

Animals on the medium-lage end will also do fine stat-wise, since they don't have much con to lose, and often have two primary claw attacks for full str, making them the baseline. Animals bigger than a brown bear will start losing hit points just like giants, but otherwise be fine. The main standout is probably the giant octopus, which combines a ton of full str tentacles with a usable land speed and abysmal con, making elder eidolon truly nothing but upside (unless you actually care about ink cloud). Giant squid are of course stronger, but lack a natural land speed.

Vermin are a special case, because they can get big real quick as anyone who's gone gaga for summoning giant centipedes will tell you- those have tons of size but few HD and bad con scores, so they get way tougher, but have only the one now poison-less bite. The giant stag beetle is a good source of trample without going to elephant size (where you start losing hp from con), so all upside. Depending on how you run the confusion aura, trample could also be good for letting you pass by people to trigger it more.

Aberrations and plants are wildcards. Any that rely on special attacks or qualities they will lose are probably a bad idea, as usual, but there is one particular area they excel in: tentacles. The kraken used for an example loses a bunch of BAB in addition to its SLAs, and giant octopi only go so far, but there are plenty of plants with big tentacles. Fiend Folio in particular loves them at varying levels: the Bloodthorn, Ironmaw, and Octopus Tree should all do just fine, though they'll lose some special attacks (apparently high CR tree monsters have lots of SLAs). MM3 likes them too: a Battlebriar will lose a bunch of hp but has ranged AoEs. And MM5: a Vinespawn without the spawning still engulfs and crushes people. Checking through the aberrations is annoying though so I'll leave that to others.

[danielxcutter]

You want monsters with as few special attacks or special qualities to lose as possible, only the physical Ex attacks- constrict, rend, pounce, etc. No monsters that rely on special qualities, because those are all lost. Depending on DM or PC use you want either high or low numbers of hit dice, but either way you want a monster that does not rely on its con score for hit points. And of course, plenty of base strength and natural weapons. In particular, you want natural weapons which use the full strength modifier. Anything that has lots of HD and full BAB (dragons, magical beasts, and monstrous humanoids) is going to be much less effective than expected, while those that had lower BAB and fewer abilities will be better.

But remember: that +8 strength is only +4 damage even on full str attacks. This is not a template that significantly increases offense, and focusing only offense will never work. It's a defensive template with a net +10 AC, magic immunity, and fast healing. Focus on monsters that lose nothing and whose defenses will become the most effective. If your game is one where battles are over in a round or two and AC and DR and "magic immunity" are assumed to be bypassed all the time, then this is not a template you should be using- if you do you'll need to make up your own CR 'cause most of the template doesn't even matter.

Hydras are common suggestions, but hydras rely very heavily on their magical beast BAB and actually have pretty bad attacks in spite of appling full str on every bite and having the standard action "full attack." Hydras are also huge, which makes them more expensive and cumbersome. Dragons are about the same, with large dragons having plenty of full str attacks and flight, but losing dragon BAB. These aren't bad, but they aren't interesting or particularly synergistic.

Giants on the other hand go quite well. Giant BAB is already at 3/4, so you don't lose any, but you still gain a bunch of strength and can use up to 1.5x on all those iterative attacks. An Elder Eidolon giant is pretty much nothing but upside: same BAB, more str, more AC, same weapon and rock attacks, added DR and fast healing and confusion and magic immunity. Unfortunately they do lose hit points, but some of that is almost unavoidable at this size. When picking giants, those with just enough BAB for their next iterative attack are strongest (Fire over Frost for example, and Skullcrusher Ogre over Hill).

Animals on the medium-lage end will also do fine stat-wise, since they don't have much con to lose, and often have two primary claw attacks for full str, making them the baseline. Animals bigger than a brown bear will start losing hit points just like giants, but otherwise be fine. The main standout is probably the giant octopus, which combines a ton of full str tentacles with a usable land speed and abysmal con, making elder eidolon truly nothing but upside (unless you actually care about ink cloud). Giant squid are of course stronger, but lack a natural land speed.

Vermin are a special case, because they can get big real quick as anyone who's gone gaga for summoning giant centipedes will tell you- those have tons of size but few HD and bad con scores, so they get way tougher, but have only the one now poison-less bite. The giant stag beetle is a good source of trample without going to elephant size (where you start losing hp from con), so all upside. Depending on how you run the confusion aura, trample could also be good for letting you pass by people to trigger it more.

Aberrations and plants are wildcards. Any that rely on special attacks or qualities they will lose are probably a bad idea, as usual, but there is one particular area they excel in: tentacles. The kraken used for an example loses a bunch of BAB in addition to its SLAs, and giant octopi only go so far, but there are plenty of plants with big tentacles. Fiend Folio in particular loves them at varying levels: the Bloodthorn, Ironmaw, and Octopus Tree should all do just fine, though they'll lose some special attacks (apparently high CR tree monsters have lots of SLAs). MM3 likes them too: a Battlebriar will lose a bunch of hp but has ranged AoEs. And MM5: a Vinespawn without the spawning still engulfs and crushes people. Checking through the aberrations is annoying though so I'll leave that to others.

And this is the kind of stuff I make threads for. Sweet!

[RoboEmperor]

Nothing comes close to the hydra. 12 attacks every round even after they move.

Bull's strength increases their damage per round by 24.
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful increases their damage per round by 36 and gives them one additional attack.
Blessings of the righteous increases their damage per round by 42 damage.
Girallon's Blessing gives them 5 additional attacks per round.

With these four buffs (all of them persistable) your hydra will be doing:
(2d8+6 + 2 + 3 + 1d6) x 13 + (1d4+6 + 2 + 3 + 1d6) x 4 + (2d4 + 9 + 3 + 3 + 1d6)
= (9 + 6 + 2 + 3 + 3.5) x 13 + (2.5 + 6 + 2 + 3 + 3.5) x 4 + (5 + 9 + 3 + 3 + 3.5)
= 305.5 + 68 + 23.5
=397 damage a round on average.

Even if 3/4 of the attacks miss it will still one shot everything in the game. And this is just persistable spells. You got magic items that can further boost his attack and damage. And there are other spells that give +1d6 elemental damage.

If you have trouble fitting him anywhere give him an adamantine weapon/helmet/improvised weapon and have it destroy every wall in the game.

Or alternatively buy a shrink collar and change his size to small.

[unseenmage]

Also be aware of the Effigy template in Complete Arcane. They're like the Elder Eidolon's vanilla little cousins, only cheaper.

As for forms, check out Monsters of Faerun, lots of decent creatures in there with good stats for their size and HD. It's a 3.0 splat book but it does have a 3.5 update booklet online somewhere.


Another fun trick that will require GM approval, make an Elder Eidolon of a base race. Lots of racial traits should qualify as Ex for Construct-i-fi-cation purposes.
There's even the arguement that if a Human's racial bonus feat is an Ex ability and the feat chosen is a combat feat then the Effigy/Elder Eidolon should retain said feat.
Just be sure to discuss it with your GM first as its tricky rules territory.

Remember too that giant beat sticks aren't the only use for magic robots.
Make one in the likeness of a prominent political figure then gift it to them either as a legitimate guardian or as a Trojan Horse type deal where after they accept the thing it murders it's way through their palace in the night.

[Bronk]

You want monsters with as few special attacks or special qualities to lose as possible...

This is a great rundown of various creature types, but I'm still not seeing any reason to focus on what each creature type loses. The focus should be on the final product. Does it end up with a lot of attacks, movement modes, and feats? Those are the things that make one elder eidolon stand out from another.

[Fizban]

And are you going to go through and compare the adjusted statblocks of every single one? 'Cause they all get the exact same bonuses applied to their original stats, with the only variance being the special abilities they lose. Looking at the creature minus the things it will lose is already comparing it to the others. For any group of reasonably balanced creatures, those that lose the most will be the worst, and if the creature is losing more than one or two major abilities it's pretty dang likely to be inferior. That doesn't mean there aren't OP creatures out there that could lose a ton and still beat normal creatures, but if you didn't already check the super creatures you knew about, then I don't know what to tell you.

Those are basically going to fall along the same source lines as they always do, so if you've got a creature that still makes a great Elder Eidolon even after losing a bunch of special attacks and qualities, there's a high chance the same book has another creature that will do even better because it higher numbers/fewer specials to begin with. I'm not interested in making a list of "monsters so strong you can strip their special attacks and add +3 CR and still use them." Though if I was, I'd be sad that the Nycaloth doesn't qualify for the template because that's exactly what they did with it /grudge.


Randomly checking around the Fiend Folio, here's a weird one you've almost certainly never used for the low end: a Senmurv. Magical beast, but with so few HD it loses little BAB, and low con so the hp are all upside. Has flight and rend with a pair of full str claws. Your players will probably laugh at the rainbow bird doge robot, until it starts ripping them apart while driving them insane. And a couple classics from the MM1, Bulettes have a solid base with a burrow speed even though their claws are at half str, and Cloakers have always intrigued me as an effigy/eidolon target. They do lose a ton of abilities, but their particular version of Engulf is quite special: attacks that hit the cloaker are split between it and the engulfed target. Combine that with DR, fast healing, and immunity to sneak attacks, and you get a pretty dang tough grappler, whose insanity aura can aggro-lock people into staying in the grapple or continuing to strike the cloaker (thus harming the engulfed target).

[Bronk]

And are you going to go through and compare the adjusted statblocks of every single one? 'Cause they all get the exact same bonuses applied to their original stats, with the only variance being the special abilities they lose.

No, the variances aren't what they lose, it's what they keep. That includes special abilities, but also their attacks, and their attack related feats. All you need to do is consider which monsters have the most of those. That's what I did in my first post. Dragons have lots of attacks and defenses. So do mariliths, which turned out to have lots of combat related feats. Most monsters can be made usable with the right template (like a half dragon marilith), there's nothing stopping us.



Randomly checking around the Fiend Folio, here's a weird one you've almost certainly never used for the low end: a Senmurv. Magical beast, but with so few HD it loses little BAB, and low con so the hp are all upside. Has flight and rend with a pair of full str claws. Your players will probably laugh at the rainbow bird doge robot, until it starts ripping them apart while driving them insane. And a couple classics from the MM1, Bulettes have a solid base with a burrow speed even though their claws are at half str, and Cloakers have always intrigued me as an effigy/eidolon target. They do lose a ton of abilities, but their particular version of Engulf is quite special: attacks that hit the cloaker are split between it and the engulfed target. Combine that with DR, fast healing, and immunity to sneak attacks, and you get a pretty dang tough grappler, whose insanity aura can aggro-lock people into staying in the grapple or continuing to strike the cloaker (thus harming the engulfed target).

Those are great ideas for prospective elder eidolons! The cloaker especially, and I've always liked the senmurv as well.