View Full Version : Havelock Vetinari vs. Dominic Deegan. Who would win and who deserves to?
Duke Malagigi
2007-09-20, 02:50 PM
Which of these masters of social manipulation would best the other in contest of the wits? Would it be Anhk-Morpork's own Patrician and Provost of the Assassins Guild or Dominic Deegan, master seer and supreme twerp? I also ask who deserves to win, the Assassin or the obnoxious seer? Bonus points for detailing what a Vetinari and Deegan meeting would be like.
My vote goes to Vetinari on both counts. He's smarter and seemingly more ethical than Dominic. Of course this can be explained by the Anhk-Morporkian Assassins School's classes on ethics.:smallamused:
Who would win
Havelock Vetinari: 14
Dominic Deegan: 2
Who would be worthy of winning
Havelock Vetinari: 16
Dominic Deegan: 0
OptimusMaximus
2007-09-20, 03:12 PM
Vetinari. The well-written always triumph.
Reptilius
2007-09-20, 03:39 PM
Vetinari should win. But he probably wouldn't, seeing as Dominic is a wizard (or possibly psychic) of ambiguous power. He'd probably throw a fireball, 'cause he sees Vetinari as evil, then get all emo for about a month and promptly forget all about it until the plot dictates it. Vetinari is much, much better at being awesome. And funny. And plus, assassins have evasion. :smallamused:
kamikasei
2007-09-20, 03:39 PM
Vetinari, because self-delusion as to your motives and nature will always hamper you.
Green Bean
2007-09-20, 03:41 PM
Sure, Dominic has MAD MAGIC POWAHZ, but Vetinari is smarter then him by several light years. Dominic is merely a puppet master. Unlike Vetinari, he can't make them pull their own strings.
ElfLad
2007-09-20, 03:43 PM
Vetinari. The well-written always triumph.
Explain the large amount of poorly-written characters with impenetrable character shields.
Duke Malagigi
2007-09-20, 03:49 PM
This is matter of social manipulation and influence, not a death match.
Nerd-o-rama
2007-09-20, 03:58 PM
Explain the large amount of poorly-written characters with impenetrable character shields.
A wizard did it.
Anyway, it would of course depend on who was writing it, as both Discworld and Dominic Deeganland have physical and metaphysical laws based entirely on Plot. The Discworld's exist to prove the author's points in a clever manner. DDland's exist to make sure Dominic wins.
Anyway, I want to see the Patrician sic Vimes on Dominic. If there's one thing Vimes hates more than anything, it's self-righteous gits who are more self-righteous than he is.
Reptilius
2007-09-20, 04:21 PM
Anyway, it would of course depend on who was writing it, as both Discworld and Dominic Deeganland have physical and metaphysical laws based entirely on Plot. The Discworld's exist to prove the author's points in a clever manner. DDland's exist to make sure Dominic wins.
I hope Terry Prachett hates Dominic Deegan. He probably does, seeing as there are no whiny, emo wizards in the Discworld. Well, no. Plenty are whiny, as well as cliched. But they recognize their clichedom and embrace it humorously. DD refuses it, and the the titular character gets all whiny and emo because of the (justly deserved) insult.
Addressing the social + influence vs. deathmatch matter, I've seen some occurrences in the Discworld that could be called both.
Sage in the Playground
2007-09-20, 04:47 PM
Vetinari.
ten cahrz
Kurald Galain
2007-09-20, 06:17 PM
Dominic is SO not even in Vetinari's league.
Yes, he has this spellcasting thing going on. Vetinari owns Unseen University. Enter Ridcully, who is not amused at this upstart playing with dimensional powers, and is not amused by anything that arrogant. And yes, Mustrum outcasts DD even without the resources of UU at his side.
So in arcane power, Vetinari has him beat by a long shot. In intelligence, it should be obvious that the Big V is at least five paces ahead of him, given how often that Deegan guy gets surprised by the plot (often) and how often Havelock gets surprised (essentially, I believe once in the entire series, which is more than five times longer than Dominic).
Two out of two for the Patrician. That leaves manipulation. Dom's highest feat is manipulating a small number of his friends and enemies to be in the right place at some point and not kill one another. Puh-leeze. The master assassin has an entire city doing his bidding of their own free will, or so they think, because he pits them all against each other and makes the alternatives be worse, and he has enough spare time left to read opera music.
Oh, wait, forgot the sidekicks. Closest thing Mr. Vetinari has to a sidekick is either Vimes or Carrot - Vimes being a kickass guardian count with the courage to face down the Summoning Dark, and the detective skills to make Ms. Marple whimper, and Carrot being a man of pure righteousness with surprising cunning and the blood of the kings of Ankh. Mookie's Mary Sue has either a mean and ugly emo goth chick with suicidal tendencies who can cast an illusion or two, or a ridiculous brother who dreams of wearing spandex and casts spells that make himself powerless, or a friggin' cat.
Vetinari wins ten out of four. Yes, he is that awesome.
Duke Malagigi
2007-09-20, 09:07 PM
Wow, Dominic is outgunned, out classed and out numbered. Maybe as a slight reprieve Vetinari could send master Deegan off to the Assassins School on the off chance they could teach him ethics and responsibility. Afterwards Dominic could be transferred to the Unseen University to learn proper wizardry and to be yelled and shot at by Mustrum Ridcully himself. For all we know Dominic might go Bursar on us if that happens.
If Deegan survived via-plot shields Vetinari would explain the problem over a cup of coffe with Lenoard and an hour later would have a Device-That-Removes-Story-Based-Invulnerabilities.
Duke Malagigi
2007-09-20, 09:15 PM
If Deegan survived via-plot shields Vetinari would explain the problem over a cup of coffe with Lenoard and an hour later would have a Device-That-Removes-Story-Based-Invulnerabilities.
That he would, that he would. Now which of the two do you think should win?
That he would, that he would. Now which of the two do you think should win?
Dunno, havn't read Dominic Deegan. But even if Vetinari shouldn't win, he will somehow make it more beneficial to all parties involved if he does.
Blue_C.
2007-09-20, 09:43 PM
While I do think Vetinari is probably unbeatable in most cases, there is in fact one clear example in the Discworld books where someone got the advantage on him and used it, and it does not bode well as a precedent.
Sourcery: when Coin (who was a channel for raw magic and thus a wizard of incalculable power) turned the Patrician into a chameleon.
If one mage with the power of plot at his back can outmaneuver the old man, another might be able to as well.
Edit: But Vetinari deserves to win. His sidekicks alone (who also, in addition to those mentioned, include Mrs Palm, Batty, and the entire rest of the Seamstress Guild) testify to his basic magnificence.
While I do think Vetinari is probably unbeatable in most cases, there is in fact one clear example in the Discworld books where someone got the advantage on him and used it, and it does not bode well as a precedent.
Sourcery: when Coin (who was a channel for raw magic and thus a wizard of incalculable power) turned the Patrician into a chameleon.
If one mage with the power of plot at his back can outmaneuver the old man, another might be able to as well.
its not so much that vetinari is unbeatable, its just that he arranges it so it is not in your best intrests to beat him.
Finn Solomon
2007-09-20, 10:01 PM
If it has a tongue, it can talk. If it can talk, it can negotiate. If it can negotiate, the Patrician has Dom by the short hairs - or whatever it is that Deegan has down there.
13_CBS
2007-09-20, 10:14 PM
Umm, Dominic Deegan definitely wins.
Why? Cuz Vetinari, as awesome as he is, is not written by Mookie. Therefore, Vetinari is unable to do everything. Didn't Vetinari get poisoned something like 4 times in Feet of Clay? Well, Dominic never gets poisoned like that. The only that can beat him are, apparently, superpowered beings of chaos, angry knights powered by plot, and naked furries.
Does Vetinari deserve to win, though? Hell yes. He's an assassin, for God's sake!
Dhavaer
2007-09-20, 10:32 PM
Didn't Vetinari get poisoned something like 4 times in Feet of Clay?
Yes, but only because he wanted to let Vimes solve the poisoning case.
13_CBS
2007-09-20, 11:28 PM
Yes, but only because he wanted to let Vimes solve the poisoning case.
Ah, but if it were DD, he would have already foreseen who would do the poisoning, come up with a bizarre, friends-manipulating plan, and sit back and watch the fireworks while pawing Luna.
Duke Malagigi
2007-09-20, 11:33 PM
Okay, then start a list of Havelock Vetinari's best and worst behavior along with a similar list for Dominic Deegan. Also include the significance and severity of their actions.
13_CBS
2007-09-20, 11:36 PM
So...what is it about the DD archives? I already said that Vet DESERVES to win, but probably will not due to DD's plot armor, Gary Stu qualities, etc...
Duke Malagigi
2007-09-20, 11:42 PM
So...what is it about the DD archives? I already said that Vet DESERVES to win, but probably will not due to DD's plot armor, Gary Stu qualities, etc...
This is for the benefit of Bloodyredcommie so he can appreciate what kind of obnoxious self-righteous jerk Dominic is. I should and will replace it with a request for the best and worst of both Vetinari and Dominic.
13_CBS
2007-09-21, 07:28 AM
Ah, gotcha. I thought that post was directed towards me.
Targos Faile
2007-09-22, 02:42 PM
While I do think Vetinari is probably unbeatable in most cases, there is in fact one clear example in the Discworld books where someone got the advantage on him and used it, and it does not bode well as a precedent.
Sourcery: when Coin (who was a channel for raw magic and thus a wizard of incalculable power) turned the Patrician into a chameleon.
If one mage with the power of plot at his back can outmaneuver the old man, another might be able to as well.
Coin didn't change Vetinari into a chameleon. That was the previous patrician. Vetinari became the patrician after that.
Incidentally, that old patrician is the reason why UU doesn't pay taxes. Whenever the issue of the universities taxes arise, after listening to reasons why the UU should pay them, the wizards produce the jar with the previous patrician as a counter argument.
Finn Solomon
2007-09-22, 02:44 PM
Coin didn't change Vetinari into a chameleon. That was the previous patrician. Vetinari became the patrician after that.
Incidentally, that old patrician is the reason why UU doesn't pay taxes. Whenever the issue of the universities taxes arise, after listening to reasons why the UU should pay them, the wizards produce the jar with the previous patrician as a counter argument.
No, the Patrician in Sourcery was indeed Havelock Vetinari.
Turcano
2007-09-22, 04:59 PM
No, the Patrician in Sourcery was indeed Havelock Vetinari.
The reason there's such a disparity is because Pratchett hadn't done any character development with him yet. They're the same character, yet they might as well not be.
Kurald Galain
2007-09-22, 06:19 PM
Incidentally, that old patrician is the reason why UU doesn't pay taxes.
Yes, but Vetinari is the reason why UU makes a voluntary friendly yearly donation to the city's coffers, that coincidentally happens to match the amount of money they were taxed by.
Sourcery: when Coin (who was a channel for raw magic and thus a wizard of incalculable power) turned the Patrician into a chameleon.
Yes, and do you think Vetinari will ever get fooled like that again?
And come on. I haven't read much about Dominic Deegan, but I doubt like hell he is as powerful as Coin was. Coin captured all the gods of the Discworld because he could.
Green Bean
2007-09-22, 09:25 PM
Yes, and do you think Vetinari will ever get fooled like that again?
And come on. I haven't read much about Dominic Deegan, but I doubt like hell he is as powerful as Coin was. Coin captured all the gods of the Discworld because he could.
Yeah. I'd even go as far as saying that Discworld magic is generally more powerful than Deegan-verse magic, mainly because magic that comes with a price tag is usually stronger than 'fire and forget'.
Aidan305
2007-09-25, 06:57 AM
Ah, but if it were DD, he would have already foreseen who would do the poisoning, come up with a bizarre, friends-manipulating plan, and sit back and watch the fireworks while pawing Luna.
Like Ventinari did? Without the pawing of Luna of course.
Seraph
2007-09-26, 04:32 PM
Sourcery: when Coin (who was a channel for raw magic and thus a wizard of incalculable power) turned the Patrician into a chameleon.
If one mage with the power of plot at his back can outmaneuver the old man, another might be able to as well.
read sourcery again. coin is not a lone mage, he is an omnipotent, living magic generator.
One of Vetinari's greatest talents is delegation so Vetinari could
A) send moist to charm the pants off whatever society Deegan is from so they kick him out.
B) Have Leonard build somthing
C) have ridcully and the staff of UU do somthing to restrain this reckless use of magic
2/10
13_CBS
2007-09-26, 05:35 PM
Like Ventinari did? Without the pawing of Luna of course.
But Vetinari got poisoned. Dominic, at worst, gets beaten up by random knights and naked spellwolves.
But Vetinari got poisoned. Dominic, at worst, gets beaten up by random knights and naked spellwolves.
He's also the very visible head of the largest city on the planet. And he didn't die, and didn't really care about being poisoned.
I think the closest Vetinari has ever actually come to death was when he got shot in the leg.
Toptomcat
2007-09-26, 07:04 PM
Each of them is simply too smart to get into a fight with the other.
Duke Malagigi
2007-09-26, 07:10 PM
I also wonder which one of the two you would consider more honorable, the assassin Vetinari or the Oracle and "Champion of Light", Dominic Deegan.
Dragonmuncher
2007-09-26, 07:32 PM
Deegan would be able to predict any plan Vetinari came up with, but it would be such a good plan it wouldn't matter.
See: Going Postal. Moist was aware of pretty much every facet of V's plans, but that didn't stop him from being manipulated. I believe the quote was, "He forced you into pulling your own puppet strings" or somesuch.
Also, Deegan is a tool, so Vetinari wins.
ElfLad
2007-09-26, 07:55 PM
The only Discworld novel featuring Vetinari that I've read is Guards! Guards! and he struck me as what a Mary Sue character would be like if it was well-written, down to the speech about morality near the ending and being in control of the situation at all times.
Except while Mookie wants to be Dominic Deegan so much that you can almost see "Michael Terraciano-Deegan" written in flowery cursive on the comics, I'd have no trouble believing that Terry Pratchett doesn't dream about being Havelock Vetinari.
13_CBS
2007-09-26, 10:02 PM
Didn't Vetinari also get beaten up by two guys in...what was it...the Truth?
I mean, come on. He's an assassin (or was trained as one):smalltongue:
Again, Vetinari deserves to win. But considering how much plot protection and SUPREME ULTIMATE SEER POWER Dominic always gets, I think Vetinari could very well lose.
Didn't Vetinari also get beaten up by two guys in...what was it...the Truth?
Its said that the only reason they won (and they were both expert criminals) was because they had somebody who looked exactly like Vetinari. Vetinari was so shocked to see himself outside of a mirror that they managed to take him down.
6/10
Twin2
2007-09-27, 12:34 AM
But Vetinari got poisoned. Dominic, at worst, gets beaten up by random knights and naked spellwolves.
He got poisoned once, figured out how, stopped it, and arranged it in such a manner that he still appeared to be poisoned while letting the watch think they were the first ones to figure it out. So if you're gonna poison the man it better be damn good stuff, and work on the first try.
Human Paragon 3
2007-09-27, 12:47 AM
Vetinari Vetinari Vetinari Vetinari Vetinari Vetinari Vetinari Vetinari Vetinari Vetinari Vetinari Vetinari Vetinari Vetinari Vetinari Vetinari Vetinari Vetinari Vetinari Vetinari Vetinari Vetinari Vetinari Vetinari Vetinari Vetinari Vetinari ...
What, you haven't read Making Money yet?
Moral Wiz
2007-09-27, 01:49 AM
GAH!!
Don't remind me. Amazon shall die for not sending it yet.:smallfurious: :smallamused:
storybookknight
2007-09-27, 05:31 PM
Oooh, Making Money? It's out? Must get.
In short: Vetinari and... Vetinari.
Duke Malagigi
2007-09-27, 07:04 PM
Here are the scores so far. Assassin-dictator Havelock Vetinari of Anhk-Morpork victory 11 worthiness 13 and obnoxious selfrighteous jerk Dominic Deegan victory 2 worthiness 0.
Alex12
2007-10-04, 08:34 AM
Vetinari. He's just that good.
North
2007-10-04, 08:49 AM
Deegen - I can see the future and I know how to beat you.
Vetinari - Child come speak to me when you can control the future.
OzymandiasPBS
2007-10-04, 03:18 PM
Let's see. Vetinari, graduate of the Assassins' Guild of Ankh Morpork, known to have outplotted himself in the past, able to manipulate people into doing his will even when they are trying to destroy him, prepared for anything up to and including acts of dragon or Vimes, known to have hidden in plain sight so well as to be literally nigh-invisible, and able to keep the city of Ankh Morpork (on the permanent brink of revolution or anarchy) running smoothly... plus, he has at his command a man who has defeated an "invisible and very powerful quasi-demonic thing of pure vengeance", werewolves, and other such nasties, let alone arresting armies about to march to war.... and this, we oppose with, erm... a seer of moderate, but not great, power. Who would win? Vetinari.
Who deserves to win? Well, whilst one's manipulations are evident to those being manipulated, whilst one presses obvious buttons, whilst one is simple beyond belief in his plots and plans, never more than about two layers deep... the other would have to be hung with a corkscrew rather than a rope, to quote the Commander of his Watch. Erm, yeah. Vetinari wins again.
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