Looking for a good, "Physically threatening" Dragon Boss

[GrayDeath]

Hi Playground!

This is rather urgent, I usuddenly was told I need to GM tomorrow instead of next Saturday (other DM is sick), if only for a short "End of Scary Mountains" Evening.

For that I need a very formidable "physical" Dragon End BOss, as quickly as possible.

THe Group is composed of 3 quite optimized Characters (Melee Gestalt Initiator/ROgue Warforged, Pixie Spontaneous Theurge (dont ask^^) and Half Illithid Psion (Blaster), with some free Templates, but without a "real" Full Caster.
They are Level 11 with some free templates making them overall around ECL 13, so I thought I`d opt for a CR 15 to 17 Dragon (we trunced a CR 15 Dungeon while Level 8 so...yeah).
Myself, the usual "main Think Tank" is obviously GMing, and the other players like more simple, yet dangerous stuff more than Mind games.

So: Which Dragon within the givewn CR (if necessary with a Template or somesuch) would be the best and why?

Thanks in advance, now going to prepare the rest of the Adventure and be back in say a few hours. :)

[Zaq]

Start with a "normal" dragon (maybe even one age category lower than you'd normally go for this CR—I don't have a suggestion as to color, so pick your favorite) and slap on initiator levels. Warblade should be entertaining, to be honest. If the party is good at kiting and at preventing the dragon from getting lots of full attacks, maybe focus on Iron Heart and/or Diamond Mind strikes, and if the party is brave/foolhardy enough to get in stand-and-bang range with a dragon, Tiger Claw stuff should be quite appropriately terrifying.

Alternatively, Swordsage levels open up Setting Sun, and a dragon judo-throwing people across the battlefield is entertaining enough to justify losing a few BAB and a few HP (relative to just advancing Dragon RHD). If you do that, take Quicken Breath (you're not going to breathe more than once in an encounter anyway, are you?) so you can spend a standard action using your throws to clump people up and then a swift action breathing at your nice new cluster.

[Falontani]

From dragons of eberron you have the path of war thing. Basically heavy armor prof and maneuvers.

[Glimbur]

We once had a dragon with Trickery Devotion and who disguised themselves as a statue. Hide their spell casting and use blood wind to shred people while they attack a decoy. It led to the party turning tail and running which was gratifying.

[Buufreak]

From dragons of eberron you have the path of war thing. Basically heavy armor prof and maneuvers.

^This would be my suggestion. It replaces a dragon's natural spellcasting with natural maneuver progression of I believe the same levels. It does well in converting a dragon from a moderate caster with high HP to a melee bruiser.

[DrMotives]

You can also check out the dragons that aren't natural casters in the first place, like the lung dragons from OA or the planar dragons. Fluffwise, the planar dragons probably have more fitting choices for scary mountain end boss than a creature who is fluffed as working for the Celestial Bureaucracy, but you never know. I'd go for Pyroclastic or Howling, perhaps.

[Ramza00]

So I am not going to talk about your "main things" you should do with your Dragon Boss for there are lots of choices here.

I am just reminding you of a secondary thing you can do in addition to the main things. Doing both main and secondary will make your boss feel more intimidating.

----

There is a wonderful 2nd level spell called wings of cover. Wings of cover does the following things from a mechanic standpoint.


It is an immediate action so it can't be stopped unless someone readies an action against this, it just occurs and the effect is applied
immediate actions allow you to be responsive to other people, you interrupt them.
you gain total cover, blocking a weapon attack, but almost all spells, and most form of abilities
having total cover blocks all line of effect abilities
if the attack is against an area and not a target you gain +8 bonus to AC (if applicable) and a +4 bonus on Reflex saves.
Characters that are dragonblooded (all dragons have dragonblood and are affected as if they have this subtype) can include additional people with this protection if they are within 5 feet / adjacent to you. You can do this to a number of people equal to your caster level / 3 (so at least 2 people as soon as you are able to cast this spell.
While a dragon most likely has 2nd level spells remember you can always use wings of cover in a wand as an immediate action, or use a wandchamber with a wand inside your weapon as an immediate action.


Throw on some way to be hard to target with targetable effects (things that require line of sight but not line of effect) like the +1 smoking weapon (20% miss chance, forces a nauseate save on the enemy if they engage in melee, your own vision is not obscured.)

----

What I am saying is you can make your physically threatening character a whole lot more tanky if you can say No, and block almost all forms of Yes with your No 1 time per round via using your immediate actions. And also remember flavor is mutable, while the flavor is you using your wings (even if they are wings of force that appear out of nowhere) you can re-flavor this as you blocking things with your tough skin / arms, or you give a shout and this deflects stuff, and so on.

So what I am saying to you is my gift to you is the power of No once a round. :smallbiggrin:

As you can tell in magic / mtg, Green is my main color, but I do also have a secondary fondness for Blue. I very much do appreciate a good fondness for Bant (G/U/W) and Simic (G/U).

[ShurikVch]

How about the Dzalmus (Dragon #349)?
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/sfery/images/a/ad/Ozalmus.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140704232902
Adult is CR 11, Large, 19 HD, Str 21, and CL 7; Mature Adult - CR 13, 22 HD, Str 23, and CL 9

Alternately, Ibrandlin (Monsters of Faerûn) is CR 5 while being 10 HD Gargantuan Dragon with 35 Str, and attack routine of bite and 4 claws; advanced to 20 HD will be CR 10; add in a few levels of Swordsage (non-associated); or slap on Radiant template (Dragon #321) - bunch of SLAs (including Prismatic Sphere 1/day!) for a mere +1 CR :smallwink:

[GrayDeath]

A Gargantuan Dragon for 5 CR?

What the Heck? (given I never DM in Faerun I didnt know that existed at all)ßß

THink I`ll go with the Maneuver Route, and choose a fitting Dragon for their Enemy (given the Group is Evil to Neutral, thinking Metallic). THanks for reminding me that Eberron modification existed, had not remembered it,e ven stranger given I used it a ferw years ago....

Unless something that blows me off my feet arrivies within the next say 70 Minutes, I think going for a Gold Dragon Initiator Modified, Adult, and mayhap add one or Levels of Warblade or somesuch.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

A dragon's stat block is a tool box to create an epic, complex, difficult encounter. You have to pick spells (or maneuvers, or psionic powers, or whatever), feats, items, and so on. I don't think anyone's going to give you a full build, but I'll give you more than an idea. I've piled on the power here, so you can scale back (or build up) as necessary.

The most important thing for any powerful solo boss is to avoid it getting jumped and ganked before it can do anything. This is going to be based on its own native detection abilities - which can be thwarted by PCs with certain builds - and how the party encounters the dragon. We're going to be less help here, but if it does end up casting spells there are some that can help you here such as Alarm, (permanent or persisted) See Invisibility, Ebon Eyes, (Greater) Anticipate Teleportation, and of course Contingency.

The initiator dragon is certainly an interesting idea. Alternatively, you could play up a dragon's natural gish abilities by increasing the spell casting and using that benefit on self buffs. An Ancient Steel Dragon (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a) is a meager CR 15 creature who casts as a 19th level sorcerer, which means with a couple of feats it can persist up to 3rd level spells naturally. This includes things like Wraithstrike, Scintillating Scales, and Ferocity of Sanguine Rage. On top of that, a 19th level sorcerer could very well know Time Stop, Arcane Spellsurge, and (Greater) Arcane Fusion, which would allow this dragon to just pile on the buffs. By the time our intrepid heroes actually encounter the base STR 29 BaB 31 enemy, it's Greater Invisible, Wraithstriking, Bite of the Werebear'd, swift action Dimension Hopping, shredding them to pieces, with a multitude of defenses including various AC-increasing spells, Greater Blinking, Stone Body, Starmantle, anti-dispel measures like Battlemagic Perception, and of course Wings of Cover in case stuff really hits the fan. If you want to be really mean, after the Time Stop ends there might be a Maw of Chaos in the middle of the adventuring party, but spells like Shapechange are too mean.

Dragons have a lot of wealth, and many GMs make the mistake of thinking that they will simply sleep on a pile of gold. No. Have them use a good chunk of their wealth, just like any intelligent PC would. This is true for any type of dragon you pick. One example: You could give your dragon a Ring of Invisibility along with decent hide/move silently skills and watch as hilarity ensues. Various cheap items also grant free movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?103358-3-X-Ways-to-get-Pounce-or-Free-Movement), such as Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker and Anklets of Translocation. In the gish case, give it cast-y items like a Runestaff (e.g., one that contains the entire Primal X line, or the entire Heart of X line, or both!), a Ring of Enduring Arcana, a Ring of Counterspells, and so on. I also like the Pectoral of Maneuverability, combined with feats/spells that improve maneuverability, to really make that fast natural fly speed shine.

Feats are important for any dragon as well, and with their HD they will have quite a few. Awaken Spell Resistance is always a good "filler" pick. Any spellcasting dragon should take Practiced Spellcaster. As mentioned, Extend Spell and Persistent Spell are good for a gishy dragon. Multiattack and Knowledge Devotion are interesting for meleeing beasts with a good natural full attack suite.

[Selion]

Hi Playground!

This is rather urgent, I usuddenly was told I need to GM tomorrow instead of next Saturday (other DM is sick), if only for a short "End of Scary Mountains" Evening.

For that I need a very formidable "physical" Dragon End BOss, as quickly as possible.

THe Group is composed of 3 quite optimized Characters (Melee Gestalt Initiator/ROgue Warforged, Pixie Spontaneous Theurge (dont ask^^) and Half Illithid Psion (Blaster), with some free Templates, but without a "real" Full Caster.
They are Level 11 with some free templates making them overall around ECL 13, so I thought I`d opt for a CR 15 to 17 Dragon (we trunced a CR 15 Dungeon while Level 8 so...yeah).
Myself, the usual "main Think Tank" is obviously GMing, and the other players like more simple, yet dangerous stuff more than Mind games.

So: Which Dragon within the givewn CR (if necessary with a Template or somesuch) would be the best and why?

Thanks in advance, now going to prepare the rest of the Adventure and be back in say a few hours. :)

A lone boss won't do the job properly, even at CL17. Add in the mix a tribe of kobold worshippers (with a few class levels) shooting arrows from small openings in a cave (or similar treaths depending on the location)

[Buufreak]

given the Group is Evil to Neutral, thinking Metallic

Might I suggest cobalt? They are rather lithe and cunning, and have a magnetic breath weapon for CC so they only end up in melee with what they want to.

[Particle_Man]

A little outside the box, but if you apply the pseudonatural template from the epic rules to even, say, a small very young black dragon you get a critter with quite a punch:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm

[Thurbane]

In addition to what's been mentioned, the Fang dragon is a pretty decent "out of the box" melee type...

[GrayDeath]

Decided to go with a Wyrm Steel Dragon with Casting replaced by Initiating (making it a 20th Level Warblade Equivalent, as the more SOrcererlike Variant imo).
For ease of use and given tha fact I only had until around now to prepare for tomorrow.
It`ll have some Magic Items to self buff, especially on the Defenseive area, and Focus on Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw, with 2 Iron heart Maneuvers for the invaluable IHS.

Lets see how it goes tomorrow. ^^

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Since you're going initiator, my advice is to avoid preparing too many standard action strikes, instead favoring lots of counters and boosts. You'll want a few big strikes for when you can't get a full attack off, and that's it. If you don't get some Scintillating Scales equivalent I'd also suggest using the Wall of Blades level 2 Ironheart counter to prevent especially nasty touch attacks.

[GrayDeath]

Just to let you all kno how it went:

Managed to be mightily threatening (killing off one Character, the Initiator, and only being barely beat by the remaining 2), which led to the Players saying they never wanted to face an Initiating Dragon without forewarning ever again ^^

Thanks again for all the suggestions!

[Falontani]

Did they fight the dragon toe to toe, or did they try to play it smart? What kind of tactics did you employ?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Just to let you all kno how it went:

Managed to be mightily threatening (killing off one Character, the Initiator, and only being barely beat by the remaining 2), which led to the Players saying they never wanted to face an Initiating Dragon without forewarning ever again ^^

Thanks again for all the suggestions!Monkey's Paw response: "The next dragon will not replace spellcasting with initiating." Party gets TPK'd. (Don't actually do that. Or do, and write about it.)

[GrayDeath]

Did they fight the dragon toe to toe, or did they try to play it smart? What kind of tactics did you employ?


Well, there wasnt much time to do recon left for them, but the THeurge did some scrying so they knew it was a steel Dragon, and buffed accordingly (ergo assumed it was a high Power Caster and aimed to get into Close Range ASAP...well ^^).
Nullified their first attack with a counter, full punced/Tiger Clawed in return, and it went from there.

@ Goodbyesoberday: hehe, yeah, probably ^^

[Andreaz]

A full caster and a high damage skillmonkey/fighter gestalt with a few adjustments...I'd say the encounter will have to be around CL 17 or 18 to work.
THAT SAID... cr 15 is fine for the dragon.
Consider filling up the rest of that cr with its minions. A few nasties (cr 10ish) that complement its fighting style will be great. Riddling the scenario of the fight with traps and difficulties that they ignore but the players don't will account for another +1 to that CR.
the creatures...if they are immune to the dragon's breath attack and restrict their movement a little more than just being meatshields it's a start. At this level they'll probably teleport in, so you want them to at least be decent fighters while flanking the players. A tripper is always useful when the dragon goes WillItBlend?, so there's that.