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Uvexar
2018-11-23, 09:15 PM
"Oh, you poor dumb elf. Don't you get it? Be a vampire, or a ghost, or an immortal with a paint-by-numbers portrait in the rec room. Hell, even a brain-in-a-jar, in a pinch. Anything to avoid the Big Fire Below." -Xykon

So You've Decided to Become a Lich: Maximizing Safety and Power for Fun and Profit

Lichdom is one of the staples of D&D wizardry, along with owlbears and the Various Body Parts of Vecna. It's something I think every lover of magically-inclined characters has considered in the past. This write-up aims to be a guide for players and DMs alike, on how to deal with lichdom and the circumstances and decisions involved thereof.

For the purposes of this guide, I will be assuming you are either a classical lich (potentially a Dread Necromancer, if your DM was nice) or a Walker in the Waste, both of which depend on their phylactery(ies) for survival. I won't touch on things like baelnorns and vassaliches.

Please see the end of this write-up for corrections to some of the information contained herein.

What is a Lich?

Liches are so much more than undead spellcasters. Becoming a lich is a supremely difficult act of magic, requiring both the ability to create magical items and knowledge of the highest-level spells in the game. Beyond that, it is the ultimate test of willpower. Are you willing to rip off your own living flesh just so you can stay in the game? Are you willing to sacrifice hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people to maintain your own immortality? It is a decision based on your morality, your pragmatism, and your dedication to survival.

Classes of Lich

Very few classes have access to the kind of magic a lich needs to survive. Anyone can, technically, become a lich, given they have 11 spellcaster levels and Create Wondrous Item; generally, however, DMs will also rule that liches need to consume souls to survive. This probably requires trap the soul, imprison soul, or soul bind, high-level spells given to only a few classes. Becoming a lich also requires a certain outlook that some classes favor over others. Here are all the classes that can feed souls to their phylacteries:


Wizard: The classical lich. Wizards have access to both of the SRD soul spells, but not imprison soul. These spellcasters aren't able to dish out as much damage as their cleric, sorcerer, or Dread Necromancer counterparts, but where they thrive is in their lair defenses.


Dread Necromancer: Technically, Dread Necromancers don't actually become liches when they reach 20th level; rather, they gain the undead type, to add onto their lich-like class abilities. However, many DMs will simply rule that a DN becomes a lich, replacing their class abilities with the respective lich ones where applicable. For this reason, this class is very likely to ascend to lichdom at the highest level. While Dread Necromancers are masters of necromancy, they are severely limited in their ability to cast utility and lair defense spells, making them more suited to being world-conquerors and generals.


Sorcerer: Our lord and savior Xykon is a sorcerer, which proves that they can indeed become liches. However, the spell- and feat investment required isn't something many sorcerers are willing to undertake. That being said, sorcerer-liches, with the right backup, can be devastating. Just look at Team Evil!


Cleric: The general flavor of this class isn't conducive to lichdom, which is why it's so rare. However, the Walker in the Waste does exist, and it's probably better than ordinary lichdom for clerics. Clerics who take this line have some great offensive and defensive spells, and can easily create hordes of undead at earlier levels than wizards and sorcerers. Not to mention rebuking and self-healing. Again, however, their class flavor just isn't conducive to a lich lifestyle, which is why I think only the truly ruthless min-maxer will attempt such a build.


Classes with the Spite Domain: Spite, from Heroes of Horror, gives access to imprison soul at the highest level. Classes that have somehow gained a cleric domain, and picked this one, can reap the benefits of lichdom. Each one brings different things to the table, and thus I won't be getting into every one at this time.

Being a Lich

So, you've said the rites, sacrificed Urist McPhylacteryFodder to the heathen gods, and felt the weak meat slough off your white bones. Congratulations, you're a lich! This state comes with several benefits, but also several downsides.

Benefits:


You have undead traits. Say goodbye to critical hits, death effects, mind-affecting effects, and oodles of other bad things that spellcasters hate.
You have bonus combat abilities. These include: natural armor, a touch attack, paralyzing touch, a fear aura, turn resistance, damage reduction, and various immunities. All of these are good, except maybe Fear Aura, unless you're killing peasants.
Lesser "wild" undead won't attack you. You no longer have to take that squicky "Lichloved" feat to make uncontrolled zombies and skellies ignore you. Just make sure other players don't coerce you into giving them access to that feat. You're not one of those icky biophiliacs.
You now have access to some really great future templates. Spellstitching is a great way to get around XP costs for spells, and the Demilich is one of the most powerful undead in the game! As you age, you can also gain access to the Evolved Undead template, making yourself even more powerful.
If your DM is using Taint rules...it may be hard to get levels, but all you need is one level of Tainted Scholar and a big pile of desecrated corpses to gain spells out the wazoo. With no downsides! That is, of course, assuming your DM hasn't nerfed the undead's ability to gain taint without repercussion.
You are immortal as long as you feed your phylactery (under most DMs - hug the ones that give you immortality without condition). That should speak for itself.

Downsides:


You have undead traits. Welcome to the world of no longer making death saving throws. Hide your phylactery well. There's also a much greater chance of you encountering weapons designed to harm you - no one ever crafted a bane of humans blade before. In addition, Turn Undead is now your worst nightmare.
You use Charisma for Concentration checks. This is probably not as bad as it sounds, but for many wizards and clerics Charisma is a dump stat. If you're a sorcerer or dread necromancer, you just peed yourself. (Or you would, if you had the proper organs.)
All of your flesh is rotting away. This will certainly make it hard to pass off as an ordinary person. If you want to walk among polite society, you will need to prepare a disguise.
Your survival depends on the survival of your phylactery. This means that you now have two things you need to protect: your body (if you're wearing magic items; for demiliches, this is a non-issue) and your phylactery. Such protections will be discussed later on down the line.
Your very presence is a beacon for adventurers and loyal servants of the gods everywhere. Be prepared to be attacked a lot, including by clerics, all of whom will have Turn Undead. If you're not high-level enough, don't go sticking your nose into the Outer Planes, otherwise your rotting ass is grass.
The level adjustment of becoming a lich makes it harder to earn experience points. Couple that with XP falloff, and you will end up on a constant search for dragons and high-level outsiders if you want to level up.
You are now, officially, on Team Evil. No more hanging around with the buds, unless those buds are death knights. Everyone hates you, and everyone is instinctively repulsed by your presence.

Personally, I think the positives outweigh the negatives. If you're crafting a phylactery, you're probably surrounded by people who agree with that decision, and will have some allies in your unlife. I think most people will agree with my opinion.

Staying Alive

As an undead, you have no Constitution score, which means that you have no bonus hit points. For your level, you are very, very punchable. In addition, your soul is now tied to your phylactery, meaning you have another thing that adventurers want: a shiny bauble to go with your mangled corpse. This section will be broken into two parts: defending your crumbling, necrotic body; and defending your phylactery.

Defending Your Body

Many of the basic tactics ordinary spellcasters use to defend their bodies still apply here. Contingency is still good, as is Craft Contingent Spell. You should always have a backup scroll or wand in case you run out of spells. However, as a lich, this comes with caveats.

First, as an undead, you no longer have to use items that ward from death attacks/effects or mind-affecting effects. This frees up an item slot or three, usually. You are also immune to physical ability damage and all ability or energy drain, fatigue, and exhaustion. Coupled with your immunity to electricity, cold, and polymorph from lichdom, the defensive-minded caster has suddenly freed up many item slots!

Second, you are undead, which gives you additional defensive worries despite all the things it takes away. You must contend with Turning and Rebuking clerics, for whom a lich is a juicy and rewarding target. While your lichdom does give you some basic turn resistance, it is helpful to find or create items that boost this resistance. In addition, you need additional protection from death, since you no longer have the buffer of death saving throws. You must thus key your contingent spells to be cast when you are near death, rather than when you fall unconscious, since you can no longer be knocked unconscious. Since saving your magic items is more important than saving your body, a teleport spell is good enough for getting you out of danger. Finally, as a creature of the undead type, there exist weapons and spells designed to damage you more than other creatures. It's imperative that you build up spell resistance and armor class to dodge these effects. SR can be easily acquired via Spellstitching, while your natural armor bonus improves over time (via Evolved Undead) but can also be increased with items and feats.

If you are an arcane spellcaster, do not wear armor! Unless you can get both proficiency in that set of armor, and arcane spell failure chance to 0%, armor is just a set of penalties, and another item adventurers will loot from your corpse.

Defending Your Soul

If your phylactery is destroyed, you still have time to create a new one. But if you die in the interim, that's it. Your soul is consumed by the Negative Energy Plane and becomes fodder for emo music in 1500 years. Obviously, it's more important to protect your phylactery before your corporeal body.

The main focus of phylactery defense is going to be keeping people from reaching it. That takes several forms.

The most important defense against encroachment is dimensional lockdown. You have to keep people from teleporting, plane shifting, or dimension dooring to your phylactery. The simplest method is a network of antimagic fields, arranged in a pattern just large enough to hold your phylactery at the center. Alternatively, if you can cast it, dimensional lock is a simple but effective way of doing the same thing. You will, however, require additional spells to mimic the bonus effects of an antimagic field, but it gives the advantage of giving additional space to place magic traps close to the phylactery.

Second, nothing physically protects a phylactery better than conjured walls. Walls of force are good, but the best is prismatic sphere, cast with the phylactery at its center. Depending on how much XP you have access to (trapped or bound souls can give some for crafting!), you may want additional prismatic walls can defeat spellcasters who happen to have plenty of spell slots.

Third, magical traps and permanencied spells. Spell traps are cheapest, and can be reset when the adventurers are dead with a single casting. Using permanent spells is more expensive, but have the advantage of being self-resetting. Magical device traps are probably the most expensive, but if you have the funds, they can be the most expansive and complex. An important thing to remember is that all these effects can be defeated with a sufficiently-powerful dispel magic effect, and thus should be produced in bulk.

Finally, and weakest of the basic defenses, is minions. Intimidating a goblin village into serving you is fine and dandy, but they will be nothing but hassles to high-level parties. As a lich, undead are very in-theme, and you have the bonus of being able to move through uncontrolled undead with impunity. Huge rooms filled with mobs of zombies and skeletons can be effective at slowing down adventurers, making them vulnerable to magical traps and the occasional critical hit by Zombie Extra Number 105. You can also summon and bind powerful outsiders, for meatier and more dangerous threats. If you Spellstitch yourself, gain the spell animate dread warrior (from Unapproachable East) as an SLA, and kill things like clerics with stacked finger of death traps, you can animate undead that have powerful casting abilities and skills. And you can have as many of them as you want, all under your control. Animate dread warrior is also good for those pesky adventurers, and a great way to reward your trusted lieutenants.

Another thing to think about is the art of misdirection. Fill a random room in an old dungeon with traps and monsters and watch the adventurers filter in, only to encounter your Crushing Walls of Symbols of Death trap. Hide your real lair someplace secret, while leaving clues and leaks everywhere to a location which turns out to be just a normal mausoleum. Use that massive wizard's Intelligence score like you mean it!

A Lich's Lair

Everyone loves the Tomb of Horrors. Full of creative and deadly traps, it is infamous as the greatest example of pragmatic lair design. But you can do better.

Your lair will have to fill several roles, all of which will benefit you on your dark road through immortality:


Storage for your phylactery
Treasure vaults
Summoning rooms, for your Dread Warrior minions
Libraries, for scrolls and spellbooks
Minion accommodations
Altars for the religiously-inclined
Laboratories for research/fun
Escape routes

Accessibility and Location

Ideally, you would build your base on the remains of a dead god on the Astral Plane. Barring the occasional dreadnought, or a visit from the githyanki, your lair will be almost inaccessible. However, any location that is unreachable by normal means works. A mote of land in the deep Plane of Fire is nice, as is a location on the Ethereal Plane, in the void between the planets. If you only need a place to put your soul, create a demiplane where you can safely stash your phylactery without care.

Your biggest concern is extradimensional lockdown. If you have the means, you should cast dimensional lock over every inch of your lair, except the parts you want your Dread Warriors and other minions to summon monsters into. These areas should be heavily guarded and trapped against any non-allied creatures entering. For your own entrance and exit, you should only use some sort of main foyer, and proceed on foot/in flight through the rest of the lair. If you can teleport a certain distance away from the lair and enter through a main gate, like in the Plane of Fire example, you should do that.

Your second concern is an assault by a party of adventurers. Adventurers are well-equipped and well-prepared foes, and can summon allies of their own into your summoning areas. Heroes of Battle gives access to Necromantic ballistae, which can animate any dead bodies into uncontrolled undead on the deck of an approaching astral vessel. This is also where your minions, particularly your Dread Warriors, are going to shine, giving you ample time to prepare your personal efforts into destroying the invaders. All of your traps will come into play here, and if you set up your defenses well you should be fine and dandy. Above all, you must keep them from entering your base.

A few notes:

Your most crucial target will be the enemy spellcasters. They can dish out the same save-or-dies you can, and clerics can turn your Dread Warriors against you if they are powerful enough. On the plus side, if you can save their corpses, they can make excellent DWs themselves.
Quantity beats quality every time. It doesn't matter how high the enemy's save bonus is, sooner or later they will roll low enough to fail. There's often no need to upgrade your magical traps beyond your initial setups, and a death effect remains a death effect.
As a corellation to the above, adventurers often possess magic items that protect them from the most harmful of your traps. You should design at least a few mundane but deadly traps within antimagic fields.
Don't ignore the physical effects of certain spells. A shapechanged wizard in gold dragon form plummeting toward you? Place a wall of force in his path and watch the bird go splat. Or place it oriented parallel to his flight and slice him in half. Create platforms of short-duration materials with creation, then summon an elephant onto it to create an Animal Cracker. The Astral Plane is your limit.
You're not an adventurer. Running away is only a net benefit for you. Retreat into your base and set up for the long haul.

Of greater concern is an assault by powerful non-adventurer forces. Ancient dragons are a viable threat well into epic levels, and at a certain point demon lords, mighty devils, and elder elementals may become attracted to your treasures. Against these forces, you need to maintain powerful defenses, and possibly allies of your own. Don't be afraid to make deals! Team Evil is a big, happy family, and if you're worried about your rights just confine your deals to devils and creatures of law. These allies can produce additional dimensional lockdowns, coerce potential threats into submission, and additionally eliminate one possible group of attackers from your threat list.

Inner Defenses

The unthinkable has happened. A party of enemies has breached the sacred ground of your lair, and are roaming the halls, killing your hard-earned minions, and stealing your shiny bits. Did you prepare your inner defenses?

Functionally, your inner defenses are like those put in place to defend your phylactery, but spread out over a much larger area. There should be large rooms of directionless undead, which (if your DM is using these rules) can generate passive Turn Resistance simply by being mobbed together. This makes them harder to kill and more of a hassle for adventurers. Another thing to consider is incorporeal undead, who can pass through 5-foot-thick walls. This means you can hide your phylactery room if you can cast ghostform, but it also means you can create rooms where incorporeal undead can pass through any point and assault the adventurers in the area.

Misdirection also comes in handy here. The adventurers breach your library, but all the books are scribed with Explosive Runes on every page! The real tomes are hidden behind shelving units capable of surviving the explosions from such a massive collection of runes. The pathway to your laboratory appears solid, but it is in fact an illusion, placed over a slippery slide that leads directly into a sphere of annihilation. The teleportation circle all the job notes in the pockets of your minions talk about is not, in fact, the way to your phylactery, but is the trigger for the hundreds of symbol spells scribed around it. Be devious. The enemy must come to you.

If you want to collect the bodies of the dead adventurers (for Dread Warriors, or just display purposes), you will want to avoid traps that violently destroy the physical form. Death effects are your friend, as are direct-damage traps. Be aware, however, that there exist magic items that can protect against these effects. For that reason, as above when dealing with initial defense, hang on to your nonmagical traps, and lay down some antimagic fields.

Following these rules, no matter your style, your lair should become an impregnable wall upon which the bodies of the enemy will break.

Your Journey Beyond Immortality

Obviously, the goal of every lich is to continue to gain more power. But how can this be done? You have a level adjustment, you're probably high-level already, and it's going to be hard to beat being capable of casting shapechange anyway. How can you continue your dark path towards true supremacy?

Big Dumb Minions

Animate Dread Warrior is probably my favorite necromancy spell in the game. Capable of generating an infinite number of powerful slaves for your personal use, its one drawback is the hefty XP cost - 300 per hit die of the target corpse. That's a lot of souls. How can you remedy this situation?

Simple: Spellstitching. There's a bit of a process for this.


Get your wisdom to at least 18, before applying the lich +2 bonus. If you become a demilich, you only need a 10 in wisdom; if you are a Wisdom-based caster, this is a non-issue for you. You need your Wisdom at 20 by the time you spellsitch yourself, otherwise this won't work. Having a Wis 13 and then crafting a +5 tome of understanding nips that in the bud easy.
Spellstich yourself. This will require 10,000 XP - 500 for every point of Wisdom you possess. That's a thousand souls, as per the BoVD rules. You may have to sacrifice some level advancement if you want to hurry the process along - it will take 125 days of only casting soul bind and trap the soul, as a wizard, to gain that many souls. The gold cost - 1,000 gp - is basically a non-issue if you are a lich.
Select Animate Dread Warrior as your 1/day 6th level SLA.

Now, with your newfound SLA, you can create one Dread Warrior per day, without paying the XP cost. This Dread Warrior must be a humanoid that has at least 3 hit dice, and no more hit dice than you do. It gains +4 Str but takes a -6 penalty to Int and a -4 to Cha (minimum for both reduced stats is 3). However, it can keep all its abilities, skills, and any feats it still qualifies for. This means that, if you keep coming up against powerful enemies, you can quickly amass a cadre of elite warriors and spellcasters who are all undead. You can even spellstitch some of them if you like, for even more power!

Alternatively, if you have access to Rebuking, seek out powerful undead to battle. If successful, you can claim some pretty powerful undead, from bodaks to mummies.

A final method of gaining minions is the lovely phenomenon of spawn creation. Spawn creation is an instantaneous effect, remaining constant upon the created spawn until it dies or the spawner dies. What you can do with this is shapechange into a wight, shadow, or similar undead with the create spawn ability, then go to town on some lonely peasant village. Assuming you don't encounter a brave party of adventurers just starting out, you can quickly amass a sea of powerful minions that never leave your service, even after the shapechange effect wears off. This is also known as the "wightpocalypse."

Mighty Templates

Spellstitching has been discussed earlier, but it's worth bringing up again, because along with the level 6 SLA you can get 2 SLAs of each level from 1st to 5th. Use these for spells you cast often but find a drain on resources, such as animate dead or lesser planar binding. They must be from the Evocation, Conjuration, or Necromancy schools, but this leaves a wide area of good spells available for the selection. The template also gives bonuses to saves, natural armor, turn resistance, and damage reduction (specifically for a lich, typically 10/+3, which will stack with your 15/bludgeoning and magic).

However, one of the best templates a lich can receive is the Demilich template. While probably difficult to achieve, it comes with a slew of bonuses and abilities that will make you nigh-unstoppable!

Here's a list of the goodies available:


You lose your natural AC but gain an insight bonus to AC equal to your hit dice. This is amazing.
Assuming you're a Medium creature, you become Diminuitive, gaining the requisite bonuses to AC and attacks.
Your insight bonus to AC also applies to touch attacks. I'm unsure if this also applies to ranged touch attacks, but if true this means you just gained a better-than true strike boost to all rays.
You can fly 180 feet, with perfect maneuverability.
Your touch attack deals 10d6+20 negative energy damage to living creatures, with no saves. You do lose your other natural attacks, however.
You can use the Trap the Soul supernatural ability, which even if the creature saves gives it a minimum of 8 negative levels (2d4*4). Eight creatures can be trapped per day, and these uses are not consumed by failures. This means an easy way to eat souls to feed your phylactery.
Your Fear Aura and Paralyzing Touch are improved.
You can cast all your spells as automatically stilled. (This is necessary for game mechanics, as you're a floating skull without a body, but it's still pretty cool.)
You gain a bunch of good at-will SLAs, from enervation, to greater dispel magic, to both versions of create undead, to all summon monster spells, to harm (which can be used to heal yourself). You can also cast greater planar ally twice per day.
You are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except shatter (which deals 1/2 the damage a crystal creature would take), dispel evil (which deals 3d6 damage, Fort save halves), and holy smite effects. That caster can sling all the wishes and meteor swarms he wants, he still won't damage you.
Any magical items placed near your phylactery can be used by you as normal, no matter where or how far away the phylactery is. You still can't wear 5 rings, but you can now happily run into the fray, knowing only your soul gems are at risk.
+20 turn resistance.
DR 15/epic and bludgeoning. Epic weapons, for the record, have a +6 bonus or higher. Only the most powerful warriors possess that kind of equipment. Now, vorpal swords can still damage you, but only deal half damage. Depending on the size of the weapon, this can be even better than DR 15.
+10 to all your mental stats. Hello, bonus spell slots, rebuking attempts, and SLA DCs!
Automatically gain the epic feats Blinding Speed, Tenacious Magic, and Automatic Quicken Spell.

Basically, you become a god among liches. While you need almost a million gold and 40,000 XP total to craft your soul gems (aka, a few thousand souls - no big deal if you're shooting at this level), after this point, nothing can stand against you. Ancient dragons, epic casters, even demon lords - all will fall before your wrath. Just don't get too cocky.

Another thing to think about, as you age, is the Evolved Undead template. Basically, every 100 years as an undead, you have a cumulative 1% chance to "evolve." This chance continues to advance even if you evolve and each evolution adds another 1%; so if you live 500 years and then evolve, by next century you will have a 6% chance to evolve that century. Should the DM let you evolve, or you roll luckily, you gain a +1 bonus to natural armor, +2 to Str and Cha, and 3 points of fast healing, as well as one of 12 random SLAs. This is always beneficial.

Leveling Up

Leveling is hard as a lich. With all your level adjustments and with a relatively small amount of threats that can give you XP at high levels, it can become almost impossible. You will have to actively seek out threats, or take the Tomb of Horrors route and deliberately attract powerful adventurers to your lair. This can be potentially fatal.

Despite all that, what can you gain from leveling up?

Well, epic feats, mostly. Starting at 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, you gain an epic feat. Depending on your class, you can gain a bonus feat every three to four levels. These can range in power from bonuses to stats to Permanent Emanations, spell slots of 10th level or more, or even additional Quickened spells each round. Most of these feats are quite good, and decisions will depend on what you want. Typically, liches will take bonus spell slots, magic item crafting feats, and other magical boosts.

Another thing you gain is HD. As a lich, many of your abilities are keyed off your HD, and if you take Spellstitched and/or Demilich these HD matter even more.

Finally, you can continue to level prestige classes if you like. Taking a level in an arcane or divine class (whichever you aren't) and then going Dweomerkeeper will give you, given time, access to the ability to cast 4 spells per day as supernatural abilities. This includes Wish. This means that, four times per day, you can produce a single magic item, without XP or gold cost. For aspiring demiliches, whose soul gems are among the most expensive items in the game, this is glorious. And it's excellent for everyone else as well, who can gain any magic item for no cost whatsoever.

Final Thoughts

Lichdom is a great way to gain greater power and prestige after your corporeal body would have long rotted away. But it comes with challenges that many liches fail to overcome. I hope that with this guide, you can create mighty liches that will benefit your game, or your players' game, for sessions to come.

Postscript

I forgot a few useful things.

First, planar binding isn't the only method of attracting powerful outsiders to your service. Gate is quite expensive, but if you have a hundred souls/the supernatural spell ability of the Dweomerkeeper, you can easily call a pit fiend to serve you for a much lesser risk than that of planar binding.

Second, as Asmotherion pointed out below, you can make your phylactery out of a super cool magical item, like a vorpal sword or other long-term use item. That way adventurers will be less likely to want to destroy it, and it can also count for Phylactery Transference if you're crimped for space.

Third, again according to Asmotherion, be sure to keep some Stasis Clones available at all times. That way, even if your phylactery should be destroyed, and your corporeal form crumbles, your soul will flee to a clone, where you can then repeat the process of lichdom.

Fourth, assuming you can find a retailer, the Book of Vile Darkness gives the cost of a soul in larval form as 250 gp, and that of a soul in an imprisoning object as 200 gp. While these give bonuses to spells of their own, they also function as souls, like any you yourself would capture. This means gate's XP cost becomes a material cost of 25,000 gp - small potatoes for a lich, and certainly a low cost for the binding of a pit fiend to your service. Again, however, you will have to find a Demons R Us at some point if you want to buy these.

Fifth, someone suggested down below that you can simply cast your phylactery into a Leomund's Secret Chest and forget about it. Well...you could. And it would be more effective than almost anything else you could do. But you're a lich, not some common pauper hiding their treasures from their lord. Flaunt your power!

Thanks!

Corrections

Unfortunately, it seems I've made some mistakes. I'll try to rectify them here.

First, the entire premise of my lich-favoring classes list is horse**** going by RAW. Anyone can be a lich if you have Craft Wondrous Item. I let my personal bias towards liches eating souls get in the way of good content. I'll leave it in as a reference point for the more classical-lich inclined classes.

Second, you cannot actually use souls in cast spells, only in crafted items. All that means is you craft a scroll of whatever spell you need to cast that has an XP cost, and you need a lot more souls.

If I find more mistakes, I'll correct them here.

SangoProduction
2018-11-23, 09:25 PM
impressive.

Uvexar
2018-11-23, 09:37 PM
impressive.

Thank you! I'd looked all over, but hadn't found any real guide to lichdom - namely, a guide that talked about lair design and the like, not fluff or homebrew.

Goaty14
2018-11-23, 10:24 PM
You are now, officially, on Team Evil. No more hanging around with the buds, unless those buds are death knights. Everyone hates you, and everyone is instinctively repulsed by your presence.

I think it bears mentioning that there is a "Good Lich" variant somewhere in one of the Faerun books. (My Google-Fu-sense tells me it's in Monsters of Faerun or Libris Mortis...).

Everybody still thinks you're evil, though. :smallfrown:

Blackhawk748
2018-11-23, 10:55 PM
I think it bears mentioning that there is a "Good Lich" variant somewhere in one of the Faerun books. (My Google-Fu-sense tells me it's in Monsters of Faerun or Libris Mortis...).

Everybody still thinks you're evil, though. :smallfrown:

Its an Elf specific one. Cuz of course the Elves get to do it.

In any event, i would just like to point out that i have quite literally never seen (or heard) of a DM require a Lich to feed on souls as they arent a parasitic Undead, they are powered through their magic, which is why they need to be casters. On top of this their immortality has a cost, the fact that they had to rip out their soul and ram it into the phylactery. That is not only complicated and fiddly but it probably really hurts

Edit: Also forgot to mention that Liches don't lose their skin. They just begin to mummify or rot if they dont slap gentle repose on themselves

Calthropstu
2018-11-24, 02:11 AM
I think it bears mentioning that there is a "Good Lich" variant somewhere in one of the Faerun books. (My Google-Fu-sense tells me it's in Monsters of Faerun or Libris Mortis...).

Everybody still thinks you're evil, though. :smallfrown:

Baelnorn. IIRC there is one tied to each of the Mythals.

Andezzar
2018-11-24, 04:46 AM
You will always ping as evil on detect evil for being undead, but your alignment is still based off your previous actions, so your alignment does not have to remain evil.

PrismCat21
2018-11-24, 11:02 AM
Its an Elf specific one. Cuz of course the Elves get to do it.

In any event, i would just like to point out that i have quite literally never seen (or heard) of a DM require a Lich to feed on souls as they arent a parasitic Undead, they are powered through their magic, which is why they need to be casters. On top of this their immortality has a cost, the fact that they had to rip out their soul and ram it into the phylactery. That is not only complicated and fiddly but it probably really hurts

Edit: Also forgot to mention that Liches don't lose their skin. They just begin to mummify or rot if they dont slap gentle repose on themselves

Came to say pretty much exactly this.

Throughout the post, OP made quite a few assumptions and is treating them as fact. I hate when people do that.
There is so much about this 'guide' that is just plain wrong.

Uvexar
2018-11-24, 11:16 AM
In any event, i would just like to point out that i have quite literally never seen (or heard) of a DM require a Lich to feed on souls as they arent a parasitic Undead, they are powered through their magic, which is why they need to be casters. On top of this their immortality has a cost, the fact that they had to rip out their soul and ram it into the phylactery. That is not only complicated and fiddly but it probably really hurts

Edit: Also forgot to mention that Liches don't lose their skin. They just begin to mummify or rot if they dont slap gentle repose on themselves

In regards to the soul-feeding requirement, IME that seems to be how DMs would rule lichdom would work for PCs, in order to "nerf" the powerful abilities and immortality a lich gains.

As far as lich decomposition goes: it's really up to the DM or player how they want to look as a lich. We have seen liches (Xykon) lose all of their flesh after attaining lichdom, so I think it's up to personal preference.

Elricaltovilla
2018-11-24, 11:17 AM
Your very presence is a beacon for adventurers and loyal servants of the gods everywhere. Be prepared to be attacked a lot, including by clerics, all of whom will have Turn Undead. If you're not high-level enough, don't go sticking your nose into the Outer Planes, otherwise your corpulent ass is grass.

FYI, corpulent means fat, meaty, large, heavy, etc. I doubt most liches would qualify.

Uvexar
2018-11-24, 12:08 PM
FYI, corpulent means fat, meaty, large, heavy, etc. I doubt most liches would qualify.

Fixed it now.

Asmotherion
2018-11-24, 12:19 PM
Some extra defenses for your phylactery:

-Craft a phylactery into a super awesome magical item in the off chance someone gets it, they may get greedy and keep it instead of trying to destroy it. You can always find the fool and punish them latter. This also qualifyes as preparation for Demilichdom thanks to Phylactery Transferanse.

-Have some Stasis Clones avalable at all times, just in case something goes terribly wrong with your phylactery. You can always make an other phylactery as long as your soul (arguably negative energy spirit) has something avalable to inhabit. What's important is to never end up permanently dead.

Blackhawk748
2018-11-24, 02:28 PM
You will always ping as evil on detect evil for being undead, but your alignment is still based off your previous actions, so your alignment does not have to remain evil.

No you wont? Being Undead does not give you the [Evil] subtype so thats not how that works. Thats why there's a seperate spell called Detect Undead.


In regards to the soul-feeding requirement, IME that seems to be how DMs would rule lichdom would work for PCs, in order to "nerf" the powerful abilities and immortality a lich gains.

As far as lich decomposition goes: it's really up to the DM or player how they want to look as a lich. We have seen liches (Xykon) lose all of their flesh after attaining lichdom, so I think it's up to personal preference.

You mean the powers you paid for by doing a ritual, crafting a rather expensive item and then "gave up" 4 levels to get? I would hit my Dm with a book for that.

Decomposition isn't going to be universally consistent as it depends on environmental factors mostly, but i would imagine that either Xykon is either stupidy old (and therefore his flesh is gone naturally) or he pruposefully removed it. Either way gentle repose can eep your fleshy bits if you want them.

Andezzar
2018-11-24, 02:41 PM
No you wont? Being Undead does not give you the [Evil] subtype so thats not how that works. Thats why there's a seperate spell called Detect Undead.
I never said that being undead granted the Evil subtype, being undead still gives you an aura that is detected by detect evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm) though.

Evil creatures, Evil undead (no distinction whether this refers to alignment or subtype), clerics of an evil deity (alignment of the cleric does not matter) and undead, without any restriction to alignment, all have their auras.

noob
2018-11-24, 03:35 PM
Its an Elf specific one. Cuz of course the Elves get to do it.

In any event, i would just like to point out that i have quite literally never seen (or heard) of a DM require a Lich to feed on souls as they arent a parasitic Undead, they are powered through their magic, which is why they need to be casters. On top of this their immortality has a cost, the fact that they had to rip out their soul and ram it into the phylactery. That is not only complicated and fiddly but it probably really hurts

Edit: Also forgot to mention that Liches don't lose their skin. They just begin to mummify or rot if they dont slap gentle repose on themselves

There is a non elf specific good lich that is called exactly good lich and it is in the libris mortis but the means to get this template are not specified.(but it got turn/rebuke immunity)
there is also the archlich which is good and non elf specific.

and if you are ready to delve in setting books then you can become a sacred watcher if you can get a way to delay the casting of create greater undying until right after your death(for example with a trap or with craft contingent spell) some people would consider that as some form of existence as a ghost but since you can possibly set up the situation for being sure to become a sacred watcher it enters the "self made eternal life" square with as requirement only one feat and one domain(which can be obtained with a feat if you are a wizard).

Dunsparce
2018-11-24, 04:09 PM
You should also make a note about the Death Master, an arcane casting class from Dragon Compendium Volume I. It becomes a Lich at level 20 like Dread Necromancer, only the template can be applied to any creature type instead of just humanoids. They learn spells similar to a wizard, and their spell list, unlike Dread Necro, has many non-necromancy related spells from the core wizard and cleric spell lists, most notably getting Animate Dead as a level 2 spell and Create Undead as a level 5 spell.

ShurikVch
2018-11-27, 03:04 AM
Anyone can, technically, become a lich, given they have 11 spellcaster levels and Create Wondrous Item; generally, however, DMs will also rule that liches need to consume souls to survive.
In any event, i would just like to point out that i have quite literally never seen (or heard) of a DM require a Lich to feed on souls as they arent a parasitic Undead, they are powered through their magic, which is why they need to be casters. On top of this their immortality has a cost, the fact that they had to rip out their soul and ram it into the phylactery. That is not only complicated and fiddly but it probably really hurtsNote: soul-eating Liches is a 5E thing
Apparently, some DM just took that ball and run with it - even beyond the 5E



no one ever crafted a bane of humans blade before.What's you mean - "no one ever crafted"?
Aren't Humans the most wide-spread specie for largest part of "civilized" lands in D&D?
So, if you will ever have to choose, which Bane weapon to take the Human is the obvious first pick (at least, without pressing need to otherwise)
Actually, some Frost Giants near the Waterdeep are armed with human bane greataxes (Harshnag the Grim, the example Gray Hand enforcer; and Gurt's Greataxe - which belonged to Gurt,
Lord of the Pale Giants - is human bane too); and all Gloom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gloom.htm)s are armed with Daggers of Human Dread (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/weapons.htm#dread)
Also, it's not like becoming a Lich would make you lose the Human subtype - so human bane would still work on you just fine



If you're not high-level enough, don't go sticking your nose into the Outer Planes, otherwise your corpulent ass is grass.
FYI, corpulent means fat, meaty, large, heavy, etc. I doubt most liches would qualify.Aumvor the Undying (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Aumvor)... :smallamused:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/c/c0/Aumvor%2C_The_Undying.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110422204311

winteranfang
2018-11-27, 04:16 AM
A cleric undead has high will save, so it can easily resist those undead destroying or controlling spells (Control Undead, Undeath to Death etc.). Life Ward (Cleric 4, Spell Compendium) is a good spell for any undead. Persisting it or making a ring of it makes an undead almost invulnerable, as the undead is immune to positive energy and turning now (its biggest enemy is dispel spells now). A ring of enduring arcana and high caster level (karma beads, ankh of ascension, divine spells power feat etc.) may protect the undead from getting dispelled.

But I don't know how to resist disjunction or antimagic.

Melcar
2018-11-27, 06:18 AM
This is very cool...

Did you look in Monsters of Faerûn? There are expanded list of abilities that some liches get... Some of them are quite cool!



I never said that being undead granted the Evil subtype, being undead still gives you an aura that is detected by detect evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm) though.

Evil creatures, Evil undead (no distinction whether this refers to alignment or subtype), clerics of an evil deity (alignment of the cleric does not matter) and undead, without any restriction to alignment, all have their auras.

In Monsters of Faerûn there is a good aligned lich called an Arch Lich!



No you wont? Being Undead does not give you the [Evil] subtype so thats not how that works. Thats why there's a seperate spell called Detect Undead.



You mean the powers you paid for by doing a ritual, crafting a rather expensive item and then "gave up" 4 levels to get? I would hit my Dm with a book for that.

Decomposition isn't going to be universally consistent as it depends on environmental factors mostly, but i would imagine that either Xykon is either stupidy old (and therefore his flesh is gone naturally) or he pruposefully removed it. Either way gentle repose can eep your fleshy bits if you want them.

Larloch is pure white bone, while Zsass Tam tries to keep him human appearance... point is, it depends on what the lich wants!

Andezzar
2018-11-27, 07:57 AM
In Monsters of Faerûn there is a good aligned lich called an Arch Lich!
I know, I did not say that undead (liches or otherwise) cannot have a non-evil alignment, I said they retain their evil aura, which sets off detect evil, even when their alignment is not evil.

Melcar
2018-11-27, 10:02 AM
I know, I did not say that undead (liches or otherwise) cannot have a non-evil alignment, I said they retain their evil aura, which sets off detect evil, even when their alignment is not evil.

Do you mean their Fear Aura (Su)? Does it have an [Evil] descriptor? I was unable to find that. Granted, the fluff says: "[...] a dreadful aura of death and evil [...]" , but I can't see the evil part? (Besides the fluff). Furthermore if you fail against this aura you are affected as per the fear-spell... which neither has the [evil] descriptor.

Not saying you are wrong, im just curious where you have your information from :smallsmile:

PS: Apparently a fear aura is a free action to use, which could very well be interpreted as meaning that its only active when the lich wants it to be... meaning that they would not have anything to detect unless activated... if indeed you mean to say that the Fear Aura is inherently evil... I could't find any aura on the list of Undead traits either... so again, I'm uncertain from where you have this! :)

Blackhawk748
2018-11-27, 10:23 AM
Do you mean their Fear Aura (Su)? Does it have an [Evil] descriptor? I was unable to find that. Granted, the fluff says: "[...] a dreadful aura of death and evil [...]" , but I can't see the evil part? (Besides the fluff). Furthermore if you fail against this aura you are affected as per the fear-spell... which neither has the [evil] descriptor.

Not saying you are wrong, im just curious where you have your information from :smallsmile:

PS: Apparently a fear aura is a free action to use, which could very well be interpreted as meaning that its only active when the lich wants it to be... meaning that they would not have anything to detect unless activated... if indeed you mean to say that the Fear Aura is inherently evil... I could't find any aura on the list of Undead traits either... so again, I'm uncertain from where you have this! :)

No, apparently Undead exude an aura detectible by Detect Evil similar to that of an Evil Cleric. Which makes me question why the spell Detect Undead exists on top of the fact that, supposedly, one of the reasons unintelligent undead are Evil (when they should be Neutral as they are unintelligent) was so that Paladins could use Detect Evil on them.

Basically it's stupid.

Melcar
2018-11-27, 10:42 AM
No, apparently Undead exude an aura detectible by Detect Evil similar to that of an Evil Cleric. Which makes me question why the spell Detect Undead exists on top of the fact that, supposedly, one of the reasons unintelligent undead are Evil (when they should be Neutral as they are unintelligent) was so that Paladins could use Detect Evil on them.

Basically it's stupid.

Aha... well that was news to me... Been playing this game for 18 years now... I was unaware...

But, where exactly is this stated... I have been looking around for this invisible aura, and I cant find it... its in none of the writeups or traits list for undead... or in the "all about undead" in Libris Mortis...

Andezzar
2018-11-27, 11:06 AM
But, where exactly is this stated... I have been looking around for this invisible aura, and I cant find it... its in none of the writeups or traits list for undead... or in the "all about undead" in Libris Mortis...It is in the description of Detect Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm).

Detect Undead exists so that you can differentiate between Undead and other creatures/items (creatures of evil alignment, clerics of an evil deity, evil outsider, evil magic item) detected by detect evil. detect evil does not let you discern which which of these it is.

Melcar
2018-11-27, 11:29 AM
It is in the description of Detect Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm).

Detect Undead exists so that you can differentiate between Undead and other creatures/items (creatures of evil alignment, clerics of an evil deity, evil outsider, evil magic item) detected by detect evil. detect evil does not let you discern which which of these it is.

Huh... That seems like an obvious mistake... like they assume all undead are inherently evil, which is not the case... Also, why have Detect Undead, if detect evil can do it for you...

As a DM, I would rule that detect evil only detected things with the [evil] descriptor or with an evil alignment... But thank you for clearing the locations of this information...

ShurikVch
2018-11-27, 11:37 AM
No, apparently Undead exude an aura detectible by Detect Evil similar to that of an Evil Cleric. Which makes me question why the spell Detect Undead exists on top of the fact that, supposedly, one of the reasons unintelligent undead are Evil (when they should be Neutral as they are unintelligent) was so that Paladins could use Detect Evil on them.

Basically it's stupid.It's a bias! This is the repression of all alternatively-powered people!
I'm, personally, blaming Pelor the Burning Hatred.
On slightly more serious note - D&D stuff looks like it was written by two different teams, and one of them thought "Negative Energy==EVIL!!!"; and they're never checked each other texts
That, at least, would explain - why the heck Deathwatch is [Evil], while Energy Drain is not; and why they considered it necessary to invent the Deathless - the whole new (and facepalm-worthy awkward) type of creatures - despite the Good Lich already existed (and even setting-neutral via Libris Mortis)


Detect Undead exists so that you can differentiate between Undead and other creatures/items (creatures of evil alignment, clerics of an evil deity, evil outsider, evil magic item) detected by detect evil. detect evil does not let you discern which which of these it is.Which make me wonder: are there also such spells as Detect Outsider and Detect Cleric?

Andezzar
2018-11-27, 11:58 AM
If only evil undead should ping, why list them at all? All undead are characters and would ping anyways if they have an evil alignment.

Additionally without an additional spell, you cannot discern whether a moderate aura of evil is emanated by an evil creature of 11-25 HD, an undead creature of 3-8 HD, an evil outsider/cleric of an evil deity of 2-4 HD/class levels or a magic item with a CL between 3 and 8.

BTW it is possible to ping on all four Detect [Alignment] spells. Eludecia the Succubus paladin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd%2Ffc%2F20050824a) managed that. She pings evil and chaotic for the [Evil]and [Chaotic] subtypes and good and lawful for her lawful good alignment.


Which make me wonder: are there also such spells as Detect Outsider and Detect Cleric?Not to my knowledge, but there is Detect Aberration and I would not have any problem with researching Detect [Type] spells.

Melcar
2018-11-27, 12:07 PM
If only evil undead should ping, why list them at all?

Firstly, thats the part I think is sluppy designwork, not realizing that there are non-evil undead. That why I think its a mistake and that is why I would rule otherwise.



All undead are characters and would ping anyways if they have an evil alignment.

Not sure what you mean... Point being a LG lich should not "ping" on detect evil...

... Not all undead are characters to my knowledge, true its a template, given to some other creature, but the base creature can exist without class levels - which would mean no character levels thus just being a generic race. If you consider all creatures or monster to be characters, then you can't use Shapechange to turn into any creature...

Andezzar
2018-11-27, 01:04 PM
According to the glossary character (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_character&alpha=) and creature (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_creature&alpha=) are mostly synonymous game terms. I have not found a distinguishing characteristic despite the glossary implying that there could be.

All creatures are characters unless stated otherwise. That has no impact on shapechange however. It does not forbid changing into characters it only forbids changing into unique creatures. So while you could not turn into Otto the otyugh, you could turn into an otyugh that looks similar to Otto, because you can specify the appearance of the form. Your disguise roll will determine how similar.

Kalkra
2018-11-27, 08:59 PM
While maybe not the most powerful option, Swarm-Shifters are cool. If I were a lich, I'd definitely go for that, although unless I missed it, there's no instructions for how to become one. I suppose you could consider it a subset of evolving, or just use a Savage Species wish (you have already sold your soul for great power, after all).

Asmotherion
2018-11-28, 10:36 AM
No you wont? Being Undead does not give you the [Evil] subtype so thats not how that works. Thats why there's a seperate spell called Detect Undead.



You mean the powers you paid for by doing a ritual, crafting a rather expensive item and then "gave up" 4 levels to get? I would hit my Dm with a book for that.

Decomposition isn't going to be universally consistent as it depends on environmental factors mostly, but i would imagine that either Xykon is either stupidy old (and therefore his flesh is gone naturally) or he pruposefully removed it. Either way gentle repose can eep your fleshy bits if you want them.

Disguise Self is a 1st level spell allowing you to blend into humanoid society as easyly as a Vampire. Lasts 10 Minutes per Caster Level which escalates to enough for a social encounter at your level.

Disguise Undead is a 2nd level spell that functions as Disguise Self but also foils magical means of detecting undead creatures and arguably can suppress your fear aura (Some DMs let you suppress your Aura at Will wile others require magical means to do so). Also lasts 24 hours which is more than enough to rince repeat for your Social Endeavors if you plan to stay in society for a long time.

Finally if you ever need to actually be alive or count as alive for a short amount of time you can cheat death yet again via Alter Self (10 Min/Level). You are excepted to your own imunity to polymorph effects after all. This also holds true for Polymorph and True Polymorph and the various other Polymorph spells but this post is mostly directed for Social Encounters and How to Be a Lich without being a Skullface.

PS: Note that Disguise Undead Targets 1 Corporeal Undead (Thus not Self Only). That Means that with a bit of investment you can bring your Devourer Pal in society with you to RP as your Half Dragon Distant Cousin (Which explains why he's soooo tall).

Andezzar
2018-11-28, 10:50 AM
Alter Self does not work for undead. You can only choose a form of the same type as yourself i.e. undead. Polymorph would work, but the duration is prohibitively short.

Segev
2018-11-28, 11:27 AM
While maybe not the most powerful option, Swarm-Shifters are cool. If I were a lich, I'd definitely go for that, although unless I missed it, there's no instructions for how to become one. I suppose you could consider it a subset of evolving, or just use a Savage Species wish (you have already sold your soul for great power, after all).

The lack of rules for how to make swarm-shifters in-game is very frustrating for the ambitious necromancer, yes. :smallfrown:

PrismCat21
2018-11-28, 07:18 PM
It is in the description of Detect Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm).

Detect Undead exists so that you can differentiate between Undead and other creatures/items (creatures of evil alignment, clerics of an evil deity, evil outsider, evil magic item) detected by detect evil. detect evil does not let you discern which which of these it is.

Good thing text trumps table.

Aura Power
An evil aura’s power depends on the type of evil creature or object that you’re detecting...
The table doesn't specifically say 'Evil' Undead, like it does with Outsider. But the text does specify 'evil creature or object' which is used in the general sense. (which we know since 'object' isn't mentioned on the table)
So when the table says Undead, the text lets us know it really means 'evil' Undead. :D

Asmotherion
2018-11-28, 07:40 PM
Good thing text trumps table.

The table doesn't specifically say 'Evil' Undead, like it does with Outsider. But the text does specify 'evil creature or object' which is used in the general sense. (which we know since 'object' isn't mentioned on the table)
So when the table says Undead, the text lets us know it really means 'evil' Undead. :D

The "cannon" type of undead is the evil one since they are animated by negative energy which is somehow compulsing them to evil one way or the other. i believe exceptions to the rule were initially meant to be campain specific or at least uncommon enough that they wouldn't raise any questions about the intention of the phrasing of the spell.

Yogibear41
2018-11-29, 12:58 AM
My Lich is a LE Paladin of Tyranny/Bone Knight, with Undead Leadership and a Dread Necromancer Cohort got any advice for me ? :smallsmile:

I'd love advice on guarding my phylactery with way more limited spellcasting ability than a typical Lich.


Oh, I would also throw in the advice of becoming a Lich in a Desecrated area for bonus HP/level.

Quertus
2018-11-29, 07:46 AM
few assumptions and is treating them as fact. I hate when people do that.
There is so much about this 'guide' that is just plain wrong.

Yeah, there's quite a few problems in the OP. If this were the instructions on becoming a Lich, it'd be an extinct species.


In regards to the soul-feeding requirement, IME that seems to be how DMs would rule lichdom would work for PCs, in order to "nerf" the powerful abilities and immortality a lich gains.

Never seen it at an actual table. Perhaps a guide should be less homebrew, more RAW?


As far as lich decomposition goes: it's really up to the DM or player how they want to look as a lich. We have seen liches (Xykon) lose all of their flesh after attaining lichdom, so I think it's up to personal preference.

This I'll chalk up to a valid use of Rule 0 - how quickly does Lich flesh decompose unless otherwise attended (such as with Gentle Repose)?


Which make me wonder: are there also such spells as Detect Outsider and Detect Cleric?

Oh course there are! Teleport Through Time back to 2e, and Arcane Sight lets you detect Clerics (and their relative strength). Detect Outsider... best I've got (before spell research) is Epic turning.

Asmotherion
2018-11-29, 08:21 AM
My Lich is a LE Paladin of Tyranny/Bone Knight, with Undead Leadership and a Dread Necromancer Cohort got any advice for me ? :smallsmile:

I'd love advice on guarding my phylactery with way more limited spellcasting ability than a typical Lich.


Oh, I would also throw in the advice of becoming a Lich in a Desecrated area for bonus HP/level.
To cheese this out:

Chaos Shuffle the WHOLE corpsecrafter featline into you before becoming a Lich and Limited Wish a Desacrate on an Altar. Then craft your Phylactery and go for Lichdom. Chaos Shuffle out your feats of choise when you're done.

PS: Might or might not work as you're not actually casting any necromancy spell to animate yourself. On the other hand Craft Wornderous item requires the casting of a spell and the Phylactery's is most certainly Necromancy...





Oh course there are! Teleport Through Time back to 2e, and Arcane Sight lets you detect Clerics (and their relative strength). Detect Outsider... best I've got (before spell research) is Epic turning.

Arcane Sight can still detect if the aura in question has arcane or divine powers... it just doesn't tell you "this is a Cleric" or "That my Lich Friend is a Solar and unless you're prepared you better Run." You have to come to those conclusions yourself.

Andezzar
2018-11-29, 09:10 AM
PS: Might or might not work as you're not actually casting any necromancy spell to animate yourself. On the other hand Craft Wornderous item requires the casting of a spell and the Phylactery's is most certainly Necromancy...
Desecrate does not care how an undead creature is created. So it would work on the lichdom ritual.
An undead creature created within or summoned into such an area gains +1 hit points per HD.

Brackenlord
2018-11-29, 11:30 AM
Mantle of the Fiery Spirit is a spell Druid 8, Cleric 9 from Sandstorm that gives any creature touched the Fire subtype:


A creature with the fire subtype has immunity to fire. It has vulnerability to cold, which means it takes half again as much (+50%) damage as normal from cold, regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed, or if the save is a success or failure.

Since Liches are immune to cold the only downside is that you can be affected by a new type of Turning :smalltongue:

The cost is a bargain at 5,000 gp for a Fire Opal and 2,000 XP or 200 souls just lying around.

Andezzar
2018-11-29, 11:37 AM
The cost is a bargain at 5,000 gp for a Fire Opal and 2,000 XP or 200 souls just lying around.I have not heard of using souls for crafting. where can I find those rules?

Brackenlord
2018-11-29, 11:56 AM
I have not heard of using souls for crafting. where can I find those rules?

Soul as Power in the chapter 2 of the Book of Vile Darkness, but on further inspection it seems they can be used for the creation of magic items and not the spellcasting itself.

ShurikVch
2018-11-29, 12:51 PM
My Lich is a LE Paladin of Tyranny/Bone Knight, with Undead Leadership and a Dread Necromancer Cohort got any advice for me ?Are you aware - Paladins are half-casters?
Thus, without any shenanigans, you're wouldn't be able to craft lich phylactery until the 22nd level
At which level you're expected to use it?



The table doesn't specifically say 'Evil' Undead, like it does with Outsider. But the text does specify 'evil creature or object' which is used in the general sense. (which we know since 'object' isn't mentioned on the table)
So when the table says Undead, the text lets us know it really means 'evil' Undead. :DNice!
If it would be implemented, then, at least, Paladin wouldn't get "your Phantom Steed" result every time she will try to Detect Evil

noob
2018-11-29, 01:37 PM
Are you aware - Paladins are half-casters?
Thus, without any shenanigans, you're wouldn't be able to craft lich phylactery until the 22nd level
At which level you're expected to use it?


Nice!
If it would be implemented, then, at least, Paladin wouldn't get "your Phantom Steed" result every time she will try to Detect Evil



The Lich’s Phylactery
An integral part of becoming a lich is creating a magic phylactery in which the character stores its life force. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a lich for sure is to destroy its phylactery. Unless its phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death.

Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.

The most common form of phylactery is a sealed metal box containing strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed. The box is Tiny and has 40 hit points, hardness 20, and a break DC of 40.

Other forms of phylacteries can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items

As we see it is based on caster level and a fun thing is that there is tons of ways to boost caster level.
So the paladin with some more investment can do that at much lower levels.

Also there might be a way to get a higher caster level with sword of the arcane order.
So you can get a philactery at level 20 with a single core magical item and if you stack other items you can get lich earlier.
if you use the alternate class feature sword of the arcane order you can become a lich early too.

ShurikVch
2018-11-29, 02:13 PM
As we see it is based on caster level and a fun thing is that there is tons of ways to boost caster level.
So the paladin with some more investment can do that at much lower levels.Unfortunately, most of those are last minutes at best; (OK, may be a day - with persisted Consumptive Field)
Crafting of phylactery lasts 4 months!
Besides the Practiced Spellcaster and Orange Prism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#iounStones) - which other "ways" are able to last long enough?



So you can get a philactery at level 20 with a single core magical item and if you stack other items you can get lich earlier.IMHO, 20th is a good level for Lichdom; but other players may hope to do it earlier



Also there might be a way to get a higher caster level with sword of the arcane order.How?
if you use the alternate class feature sword of the arcane order you can become a lich early too.What's you're mean?

Segev
2018-11-29, 02:18 PM
Phylacteries are permanent magic items, so even if they're targeted with dispel magic, they resume function a few rounds later. Which means even if they're dispelled while you're "dead," there's only a 1d4 round delay to your 1d10 day respawn time. They don't use CL to calculate any of their effects. I wouldn't worry about the CL.

Andezzar
2018-11-29, 02:38 PM
Phylacteries are permanent magic items, so even if they're targeted with dispel magic, they resume function a few rounds later. Which means even if they're dispelled while you're "dead," there's only a 1d4 round delay to your 1d10 day respawn time. They don't use CL to calculate any of their effects. I wouldn't worry about the CL.If someone who wishes to destroy the lich is in range to cast dispel magic on the phylactery, why would he not just crush the item?

Asmotherion
2018-11-29, 02:40 PM
Desecrate does not care how an undead creature is created. So it would work on the lichdom ritual.
Yes i was refearing to gaining the benefits of the whole corpsecrafter featline.

Also Desacrating with an Altar gives more benefits. if at all possible hire an evil cleric of way lower level than you (they'll probably be excited to participate... Lawful Evil to prevent any Backstubing). They're better than you at creating altars and those religious mambo jumbo anyway.




Now a great item to have is a Cloack of resistance with a + relative to your level. Since it's to all saves you can buff up that meager fortitude save of yours by a nice number.

Get yourself a good Cha Modifier (at least +5) and here are two other trics to survive some Dire saves:

Evil's Blessings Feat (Elder Evils):
Gives you your Cha Mod as a Profane Bonus to All Saves for 5 Rounds. if you cause at least 1 point of damage to a creature with an aura of good you get twice the benefits.

Here you can use Celarity (or something that interupts a creature's turn equally) to Summon monster 1 and Summon a Celestial Beetle for example. As long as you deal it 1 point of damage you get twice your cha mod.

Ruin Delver's Fortune (Spell Compendium):
This 4th level spell cast as an immediate action gives you your cha bonus to a save of your choice as a Luck Bonus for 1d4 rounds.

Combine all 3 methodes of protecting yourself and you're Virtually imune to spells that allow a save (as long as you have spell slots)

noob
2018-11-29, 03:08 PM
Yes i was refearing to gaining the benefits of the whole corpsecrafter featline.

Also Desacrating with an Altar gives more benefits. if at all possible hire an evil cleric of way lower level than you (they'll probably be excited to participate... Lawful Evil to prevent any Backstubing). They're better than you at creating altars and those religious mambo jumbo anyway.




Now a great item to have is a Cloack of resistance with a + relative to your level. Since it's to all saves you can buff up that meager fortitude save of yours by a nice number.

Get yourself a good Cha Modifier (at least +5) and here are two other trics to survive some Dire saves:

Evil's Blessings Feat (Elder Evils):
Gives you your Cha Mod as a Profane Bonus to All Saves for 5 Rounds. if you cause at least 1 point of damage to a creature with an aura of good you get twice the benefits.

Here you can use Celarity (or something that interupts a creature's turn equally) to Summon monster 1 and Summon a Celestial Beetle for example. As long as you deal it 1 point of damage you get twice your cha mod.

Ruin Delver's Fortune (Spell Compendium):
This 4th level spell cast as an immediate action gives you your cha bonus to a save of your choice as a Luck Bonus for 1d4 rounds.

Combine all 3 methodes of protecting yourself and you're Virtually imune to spells that allow a save (as long as you have spell slots)
Becoming a lich gives you imunities to most spells that are countered by saves which is one of the reasons to become undead.
So save optimization is kind of weird to do for a lich.
And for doing save optimization right one main thing to remember is that natural ones are the main source of failures at saves so getting some way or re-rolling helps more than adding 5 point more than needed.

Asmotherion
2018-11-29, 03:49 PM
Becoming a lich gives you imunities to most spells that are countered by saves which is one of the reasons to become undead.
So save optimization is kind of weird to do for a lich.
And for doing save optimization right one main thing to remember is that natural ones are the main source of failures at saves so getting some way or re-rolling helps more than adding 5 point more than needed.

1) On a high optimisation campain were your DM allows you the path of Lichdom and everything that comes with it how offten do you expect to be targeted by things that you're actually imune to? This might happen in an RP/Narrative way once a wile But your average adventuring day is expected to be facing Disintegrate/Shatter/Command Undead just to name a few non creative (and core spells) from the enemy arcane spellcasters... Paladins with Smite and Clerics able to Turn you on a Failed Save. Do you really want to boach that save?

PS: Also remember that you don't just save against Spells. Many other things require saves that are not spell related and you are probably not immune to those things.

2) From my knowlage rerolling in 3.5 needs a lot more investment than just 1 feat 1 overall great magical item and a great spell. if you have something better to contribute please do so.

Yogibear41
2018-11-30, 01:22 AM
Are you aware - Paladins are half-casters?
Thus, without any shenanigans, you're wouldn't be able to craft lich phylactery until the 22nd level
At which level you're expected to use it?



I used caster level boosting feats (Shenanigans), I think I was Paladin 4/Bone Knight 3 when I became a Lich. Been awhile since I have played the character. He is around level 13 now.

noob
2018-11-30, 02:34 AM
1) On a high optimisation campain were your DM allows you the path of Lichdom and everything that comes with it how offten do you expect to be targeted by things that you're actually imune to? This might happen in an RP/Narrative way once a wile But your average adventuring day is expected to be facing Disintegrate/Shatter/Command Undead just to name a few non creative (and core spells) from the enemy arcane spellcasters... Paladins with Smite and Clerics able to Turn you on a Failed Save. Do you really want to boach that save?

PS: Also remember that you don't just save against Spells. Many other things require saves that are not spell related and you are probably not immune to those things.

2) From my knowlage rerolling in 3.5 needs a lot more investment than just 1 feat 1 overall great magical item and a great spell. if you have something better to contribute please do so.

You can take the luck feat for re-rolling ones and when you do a natural 1.
if you have an immediate action left you can use the alter fate spell and if you are ready for a dip in a domain granting class(the first level in contemplative can progress any casting class provided you enter it while having no divine casting classes) you can get the pride domain that allows to reroll the first natural one for each save.
If you are using core only then that cleric spell which make you immune to a bunch of spells you pick can work great since there is very few core spells that works on you.
Damage spells are the least problematic ones: you can skip making yourself immune to those since they only hurt you(which is just a set back for a lich unlike mind control).

Asmotherion
2018-11-30, 11:38 AM
You can take the luck feat for re-rolling ones and when you do a natural 1.
if you have an immediate action left you can use the alter fate spell and if you are ready for a dip in a domain granting class(the first level in contemplative can progress any casting class provided you enter it while having no divine casting classes) you can get the pride domain that allows to reroll the first natural one for each save.
If you are using core only then that cleric spell which make you immune to a bunch of spells you pick can work great since there is very few core spells that works on you.
Damage spells are the least problematic ones: you can skip making yourself immune to those since they only hurt you(which is just a set back for a lich unlike mind control).

Your average Save against a Disintegrate is +6 wile an average (Non heavily Optimised) Mage's Save DC will be 21-23. That means even with your re-roll you need to roll at least a 15-17 to survive with this strategem. On the other hand with a good save you only have to Not roll a natural one which gives you far better chances to succeed.

And that's only one tiny spell from core. Not to analyse all the spells from various sources or effects your DM may design specifically against your imunities. The world may be less dangerous for a Lich but don't be "that" Lich who gets overconfident and gets butchered by a bunsh of novice adventurers because he overestimates his abilities.

noob
2018-11-30, 11:44 AM
Your average Save against a Disintegrate is +6 wile an average (Non heavily Optimised) Mage's Save DC will be 21-23. That means even with your re-roll you need to roll at least a 15-17 to survive with this strategem. On the other hand with a good save you only have to Not roll a natural one which gives you far better chances to succeed.

And that's only one tiny spell from core. Not to analyse all the spells from various sources or effects your DM may design specifically against your imunities. The world may be less dangerous for a Lich but don't be "that" Lich who gets overconfident and gets butchered by a bunsh of novice adventurers because he overestimates his abilities.

Disintegrate only deals damage which is a manageable thing: at worst you die and respawn near your phylactery
You on the other hand could get mind controled easier since you fail your will save on a natural 1 and so on average every 20 castings of control undead you would get controlled and once you are mind controlled the controller can make sure you stay his slave until he breaks your phylactery since he will have your info to do so.
So my strategy is better for countering save based stuff.
The real problems is stuff that controls you or reads all your memory or both and they are will save based.

Oh and also if you are using celerity in the first place instead of using it to get a save boost why are you not using it to simply not be here?
I did not read the line about you using celerity and so I assumed you were in medium op play and not in high op play where people just knows being in front of an opponent leads to loss and victory is when you killed your opponent while not being here.
In high op the first thing is that no matter how high your save is it is not high enough because the spell thrown against you is level infinity(or the opponent simply did some linear dc optimization and gets something like 80 as a save dc).
In high op when you cast celerity your opponent casts celerity or even time stop.
In high op casting meteor swarm makes you look weak.
In high op after casting celerity and time stop you cast more time stop until you forget you did that for casting spells other than time stop.

Asmotherion
2018-11-30, 12:37 PM
Disintegrate only deals damage which is a manageable thing: at worst you die and respawn near your phylactery
You on the other hand could get mind controled easier since you fail your will save on a natural 1 and so on average every 20 castings of control undead you would get controlled and once you are mind controlled the controller can make sure you stay his slave until he breaks your phylactery since he will have your info to do so.
So my strategy is better for countering save based stuff.
The real problems is stuff that controls you or reads all your memory or both and they are will save based.

Oh and also if you are using celerity in the first place instead of using it to get a save boost why are you not using it to simply not be here?
I did not read the line about you using celerity and so I assumed you were in medium op play and not in high op play where people just knows being in front of an opponent leads to loss and victory is when you killed your opponent while not being here.
In high op the first thing is that no matter how high your save is it is not high enough because the spell thrown against you is level infinity(or the opponent simply did some linear dc optimization and gets something like 80 as a save dc).
In high op when you cast celerity your opponent casts celerity or even time stop.
In high op casting meteor swarm makes you look weak.
In high op after casting celerity and time stop you cast more time stop until you forget you did that for casting spells other than time stop.

A) You respawn 1d10 days latter. Without your equipment. You want to at the very least control when and if that ever happens. You're a lich not a Mirror image Decoy. This can get especially bothersome if you play in a party and you're out of the game for 1d10 days.

B) Because sometimes you can be at the right strategic possition and not want to move. And this 80 you speak about with a high enough point buy and degree of optimisation would need a roll of 10 to be saved against. i don't really know how you get 80 but it's not unsaveable. wanna shed some light on this?

noob
2018-11-30, 02:04 PM
A) You respawn 1d10 days latter. Without your equipment. You want to at the very least control when and if that ever happens. You're a lich not a Mirror image Decoy. This can get especially bothersome if you play in a party and you're out of the game for 1d10 days.

B) Because sometimes you can be at the right strategic possition and not want to move. And this 80 you speak about with a high enough point buy and degree of optimisation would need a roll of 10 to be saved against. i don't really know how you get 80 but it's not unsaveable. wanna shed some light on this?

Being in control on whenever it happens is not done by saves: even if you succeed all your saves against disintegrate the damage is probably high enough to kill you or maybe the opponent just killed you with force orbs.(spamming spells in one turn is a rather normal thing)
In high op saves are just obsolete especially since a fight often goes being "celerity loop and now take two disjunctions(thus nulling many of the save boosters) and then get hit by spells until you fail a save"
You win by having more celerities than your opponent(which can possibly just be impossible in the case where both have infinity spells in which case it is just a tie) so spending a feat on saves does not change anything in fact in the case of finite spells what you want is a feat that gets you more spells such as chaotic spell recall(because you already took craft contingent spell) or some feats that could reduce the cost of crafting contingent spells.
You can also do attrition on your opponent and its army by having more army(by army I mean solars,simulacrums and other spellcasters).

For 80 I am pretty sure it does not involve point buy but rather getting a ton of feats and stacking them on your spell dc and stacking modifiers on your int from varied spells(You can get 70 bonus int with the right spells and items(such as that spell which gave a stat boost depending on the stat of a demon and many other stuff that can boost int(do not forget the horseshoes)) and if you stack on feat shenanigans you can also get + a whole lot to your dcs with school focus evil and so on and also you can add some dc boosting spells)
Do not forget that any kind of save booster you grab needs to survive two disjunctions since it is standard.

And if you are ready to involve garblers you can have infinite level utterances.

Also why did you not bring the tactical position back to another place?
At high op bringing a tactical position home(not the one where you have your phylactery) can be doable with some creativity maybe a hulking hurler grabbing the planet then shaking it then teleporting the hulking hurler could do the job.
I mean what is even a tactical position when everything can be blown up or thrown into a black hole?
If you care about a tactical position you need to bring it in a safe place or else the opponents kills your tactical position.
Usually celerity goes with a very special play-style.

Xar Zarath
2018-12-02, 02:51 AM
Will you also include the PF version of the Lich? There isn't that much difference but PF has streamlined the Lich and there is less clutter in my opinion.

HouseRules
2018-12-03, 07:53 AM
Since undead do not have a Constitution Score, they always fail their Concentration checks and automatically have spell failure. How do you bypass these two constraints as a Lich?

Andezzar
2018-12-03, 08:43 AM
Since undead do not have a Constitution Score, they always fail their Concentration checks and automatically have spell failure. How do you bypass these two constraints as a Lich?This is a joke, right?

Segev
2018-12-03, 10:37 AM
This is a joke, right?
Yes. On this forum, posting in blue usually denotes sarcasm/joking.

Andezzar
2018-12-03, 11:17 AM
Yes. On this forum, posting in blue usually denotes sarcasm/joking.
In that case

Since undead do not have a Constitution Score, they always fail their Concentration checks and automatically have spell failure. How do you bypass these two constraints as a Lich?By liberal and rapid application of the core books to the DM's face and shouts of RTFM.

Segev
2018-12-03, 12:45 PM
In that case
By liberal and rapid application of the core books to the DM's face and shouts of RTFM.

This is why lichdom requires improvised weapon proficiency. *sagenod*

Uvexar
2018-12-09, 12:33 AM
Will you also include the PF version of the Lich? There isn't that much difference but PF has streamlined the Lich and there is less clutter in my opinion.

At some point, I hope to read through the Pathfinder texts, but until then I can't really form an opinion one way or the other.

Hyperversum
2018-12-24, 08:27 AM
Personal """rule""".

Liches don't rot in one second for the simple reason that every "Liching" ritual is slightly different, unless the Lich doesn't learn the ritual from another Lich or recent book sources. This is so because we assumed that Liches appearead all over the world, so they would develop different methods and magic to perform the "liching".

As a general rule, the lower the level, the worse is the transition one develops. If you Lich-up yourself at 11, you indeed get your skin away immediatly, but the more you go up the less problems you have. When one is able to cast 9th level spells in general they don't rot at all, unless they die at least once.

Deophaun
2018-12-24, 01:30 PM
While Dread Necromancers are masters of necromancy, they are severely limited in their ability to cast utility and lair defense spells, making them more suited to being world-conquerors and generals.
DNs are Charisma based, which means UMD is an option, even cross-classed with a half rank. A Drake Helm attuned to improvisation will ensure you can UMD any scroll you wish. Then there are knowstones and runestaves, which are all UMD-able with a 21. So, they are quite flexible if you invest in it.

Also, Advanced Learning calls out spell research as a means of adding new Cleric and Wizard Necromancy spells to your list. Arguably, you can have the entirety of those spells at your spontaneous-casting pleasure given the time.

Defending Your Soul
Still vulnerable. The best way to protect your phylactery begins by tossing it into a secret chest and forgetting about it, because not even a wish can bring that back. Beyond that, you want to make the chest as impregnable as possible so that some random creature that happens upon it doesn't gain access to the contents (for example, instead of a lock, I tie it down with rope on the inside by using animate rope, as knock doesn't work against it; tie the knot when the rope is magically lengthened, then when the duration expires the rope shrinks back, binding the lid). Then, you want to ensure that if it is ever breached, there is a contingency to plane shift your phylactery to a temporary safe spot and there is a method to alert you to this, so that you can reconstruct the chest and get your phylactery lost again ASAP. (I prefer putting the phylactery in a box that's been animated, and then Craft the contingent plane shift on the animated box for when the chest is opened.)

Oh, and make sure you have a way to plane shift after death. Nothing says that you reform next to your phylactery, but many DMs run it that way.