Arcane Trickster Rogue multiclass: Bladesinger or Battle Master/Champion?

[Expected]

I have gained valuable information from my other thread and would now like to further narrow down the multiclass choices for an Arcane Trickster Rogue. If I include/do not include a particular option, it is not because it is not viable/optimal. For those who have helped me decide, thank you!

From the previous thread:

My planned character will be a High Elf Arcane Trickster Rogue with 8-17-15-14-12-8 at level 1 and Elven Accuracy (+1 Dex) at level 4. I plan to fish for criticals using Find Familiar/Versatile Trickster. I will be primarily in melee range with either a dagger/rapier/shortsword and an empty hand/shield (depending on my multiclass choice).

While I do see the value in multiclassing Sorcerer, Ranger, or Warlock, I'm going to choose either 2 levels in Bladesinger Wizard or 3 Levels in Battle Master/Champion Fighter. Are Bladesinger Wizard's features and proficiencies (spellbook, Arcane Recovery, and Bladesong: 2x SR/LR, +Int modifier to AC, +10 Walking ft, and +Int modifier to Constitution saves for concentration) better than/or equal to the features and proficiencies I would receive as a Champion (+1 AC from Fighting Style: Defense, +2 AC from shield proficiency and a shield, *critical hits on 19-20, Action Surge, and Second Wind) or Battle Master (Maneuvers including Riposte and Trip Attack)?

[Trustypeaches]

First off, if you were to go Fighter, why Champion? Battlemaster is way better for a Rogue for Riposte and Precision Strike.

Second off, go with Bladesinger / War Magic Wizard IMO.

[Biggstick]

How much do you want to slow down your Rogue progression?

Two levels of Bladesinger is easier to swallow to me then three levels of Fighter.

You're also expanding your spellcasting list by quite a bit by picking up a Wizard's spellbook. This isn't to mention the pretty big jump in spell caster level that a level 3 Arcane Trickster // level 2 Bladesinger gets to make (becoming a 3rd level spell caster and having 6 spells you can cast per day, not including the spell regained through Arcane Recovery).

I personally wouldn't consider Fighter levels on a Rogue unless I was looking at Inquisitive or Swashbuckler Rogue. Both of those Rogue archetypes are ones who don't necessarily need an ally within 5' (or to worry about a DM killing your Owl Familiar) to trigger their Sneak Attack.

An Arcane Trickster though, giving them more tools that come from a Bladesinger tool kit is exactly what I'm looking for when considering a multiclass decision.

[Expected]

First off, if you were to go Fighter, why Champion? Battlemaster is way better for a Rogue for Riposte and Precision Strike.

Second off, go with Bladesinger / War Magic Wizard IMO.

For the improved crit range that synergizes with Elven Accuracy. Riposte only triggers when an opponent misses you. I plan on taking Sentinel which competes for the reaction.

[Trustypeaches]

For the improved crit range that synergizes with Elven Accuracy. Riposte only triggers when an opponent misses you. I plan on taking Sentinel which competes for the reaction.It doesn't compete for the reaction. If the enemy attacks someone else, you take a reaction. If they attack you instead, you take a reaction.

It basically makes it impossible for the enemy to act in such a way that you don't get your sneak attack off. They aren't redundant.

[Expected]

It doesn't compete for the reaction. If the enemy attacks someone else, you take a reaction. If they attack you instead, you take a reaction.

It basically makes it impossible for the enemy to act in such a way that you don't get your sneak attack off. They aren't redundant.

That's true and certainly changes my opinion of Battle Master for a Rogue. I've changed the title of the thread and edited my first post to reflect this. What about the Superiority Dice? At level 3, I can imagine that I wouldn't have many uses of Riposte.

[Expected]

How much do you want to slow down your Rogue progression?

Two levels of Bladesinger is easier to swallow to me then three levels of Fighter.

You're also expanding your spellcasting list by quite a bit by picking up a Wizard's spellbook. This isn't to mention the pretty big jump in spell caster level that a level 3 Arcane Trickster // level 2 Bladesinger gets to make (becoming a 3rd level spell caster and having 6 spells you can cast per day, not including the spell regained through Arcane Recovery).

I personally wouldn't consider Fighter levels on a Rogue unless I was looking at Inquisitive or Swashbuckler Rogue. Both of those Rogue archetypes are ones who don't necessarily need an ally within 5' (or to worry about a DM killing your Owl Familiar) to trigger their Sneak Attack.

An Arcane Trickster though, giving them more tools that come from a Bladesinger tool kit is exactly what I'm looking for when considering a multiclass decision.

I agree. I don't want to slow down progression too much. I'm just a little concerned about the variance in adventuring days (depending on the DM) and am not sure if Bladesong 2x a SR/LR will leave me without it for a few fights.

[Nhorianscum]

If you are getting smacked enough to burn 4/short rest and want more you're probably dead now.

BS is strictly worse than ritual caster + 2nd offschool as a level 1 here. Oh man. 2/day AC comparable to a shield and a worse not-res-con/warcaster. That prevents you from hiding. Clearly superior to just picking up a shield, and a feat in the ASI this costs. So glad I took that dip for casting that slowed my spell progression to level 1 until 9th level.

(Second part may seem a tad bit caustic but really, there is no gain here. Long or short term)

[Matrix_Walker]

With the bladesinging costing your first bonus action, and the Fighter giving you a fighting style and your stated goal of crit fishing... I'd probably go fighter. It will be hard to resist more fighter levels with feats and extra attacks flowing so freely...


First off, if you were to go Fighter, why Champion? Battlemaster is way better for a Rogue for Riposte and Precision Strike.

Second off, go with Bladesinger / War Magic Wizard IMO.
I would probably want battlemaster as well, with how well it synergises with rogue abilities. But for crit-fishing as an objective, Champion is the only all day option.

And those are both Wizard sub-classes.

[Biggstick]

BS is strictly worse than ritual caster + 2nd offschool as a level 1 here. Oh man. 2/day AC comparable to a shield and a worse not-res-con/warcaster. That prevents you from hiding. Clearly superior to just picking up a shield, and a feat in the ASI this costs. So glad I took that dip for casting that slowed my spell progression.

This is confusing to me as to what you're actually saying.

The OP is picking up Elven Accuracy at Rogue level 4, and considering a multiclass decision. To add another feat in here would mean you're not getting it until Rogue level 8 at the earliest (if you decide to not multiclass), which is pretty far down the way in most games.

But seriously though, I'm unsure of what you're advocating for with this statement lol.

[Nhorianscum]

Misspost. Appologies. Editing in useful things.

What do we gain from BS2. We gain first level rituals, and 2/day AC that scales with shield quality. 2/day worse than warcaster or prof con, and 2/day +10 move along with a handful of spells.

By not going BS 2 we gain all the benefits of BS within 3-4(if fighter 1) levels along with, 2nd level spells, +1d6 sneak, magical ambush, and all the rouge goodies. (Minus the 2/day move, but with 2nd level spells)

These are always on, and we don't have to loudly sing, on the rouge, to activate them. There is no short or long term gain in a 2 level wiz dip here. At all. A one level dip is a tolerable loss of progression (delay ASI for basic ritual caster or fighter gubs) assuming we will go deeper later (3 fighter or 7-11 wiz) in tier 3.

If this is a tier 2 campain we are looking at a loss from any dip greater than one level and cleric becomes the meatiest option.

(This is not a bad dip. 2 levels is a bad dip. Wizard anything to 4th-6th level spells is not a short or long term gimp. 2 levels is... why? Hell just going to 3 wiz here gives 2nd level spells with 4th level slots at level 7. Right on the money with 3-4 solid uses of a spell daily to offset the missing SA dice. 2 gives us nothing more than 1 would until after AT 9 or 11 where we can just... go for the big spell money)

[Trustypeaches]

And those are both Wizard sub-classes.I'm saying he should multiclass into War Magic or Bladesinger with his rogue, not both.

[Biggstick]

Misspost. Appologies. Editing in useful things.

What do we gain from BS2. We gain first level rituals, and 2/day AC that scales with shield quality. 2/day worse than warcaster or prof con, and 2/day +10 move along with a handful of spells.

You gain 3 additional Wizard cantrips (of which OP has 4 already, meaning they can grab more of the options that you had to make decisions to not take as a normal AT, which include weapon cantrips, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, etc) as well as first level spells like Shield, Mage Armor, Absorb Elements, and Fog Cloud. Sure, you can grab any single one of these spells as an AT, but you can grab them all as a 1st level Wizard. Bladesong is a feature that isn't twice a day, but twice a short rest. And if the OP is building around the idea of setting themselves up as a High Elf AT/BS, they can easily have 16 Intelligence.

It's not worse then proficiency in Constitution saving throws or Warcaster, it's something you should use alongside those feats. Again, as a High Elf, it's easy enough to set up stats to be able to have 17 Dex, 13 Constitution, and 16 Intelligence (along with two 10's and an 8 in your remaining stats) to take advantage of Resilient Constitution down the line. Ten feet of additional move speed on a Rogue with access to Cunning Action is a pretty sweet feature that I don't really need to explain.


By not going BS 2 we gain all the benefits of BS within 3-4(if fighter 1) levels along with, 2nd level spells, +1d6 sneak, magical ambush, and all the rouge goodies. (Minus the 2/day move, but with 2nd level spells)

These are always on, and we don't have to loudly sing, on the rouge, to activate them. There is no short or long term gain in a 2 level wiz dip here. At all. A one level dip is a tolerable loss of progression (delay ASI for basic ritual caster or fighter gubs) assuming we will go deeper later (3 fighter or 7-11 wiz) in tier 3.

I'm confused as to the level comparison you're making here. What levels are you saying would there be an advantage for the AT/Fighter compared to the AT/BS? Is there a specific build path you have in your head that you're using as a comparison, because an actual build path hasn't been presented for the AT/Fighter or the AT/BS.

I actually just went and reviewed the Bladesong text, and will link it below. Nothing in the text says a thing about your Bladesong feature making any noise.

Starting at 2nd level, you can invoke a secret elven magic called the Bladesong, provided that you aren't wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield. It graces you with supernatural speed, agility, and focus. You can use a bonus action to start the Bladesong, which lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are incapacitated, if you don medium or heavy armor or a shield, or if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon. You can also dismiss the Bladesong at any time you choose (no action required).

While your Bladesong is active, you gain the following benefits:

-You gain a bonus to your AC equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of+ 1).
-Your walking speed increases by 10 feet.
-You have advantage on Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks.
-You gain a bonus to any Constitution saving throw you make to maintain your concentration on a spell. The bonus equals your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +l).

You can use this feature twice. You regain all expended uses of it when you finish a short or long rest.
As an additional point, the biggest things we're worried about losing in this progression is damage output and Rogue goodies. This would primarily include Uncanny Dodge and Evasion imo. Well, you should pick up Absorb Elements and Shield as one of your spells from your Wizard spellbook and simply keep them prepared. Those spells, plus your higher then normal AC (from high Dexterity and Bladesong) will make it pretty difficult for anyone to hit you AC-wise and able to mitigate damage elemental-wise.

If this is a tier 2 campain we are looking at a loss from any dip greater than one level and cleric becomes the meatiest option.


(This is not a bad dip. 2 levels is a bad dip. Wizard anything to 4th-6th level spells is not a short or long term gimp. 2 levels is... why? Hell just going to 3 wiz here gives 2nd level spells with 4th level casting at level 7. Right on the money with 3-4 solid uses of a spell daily to offset the missing SA dice. 2 gives us nothing more than 1 would until AT 9 or 11 where we can just... go for the big spell money)

If the OP's intention is to play a Rogue, 3 levels is an extremely tough sell. Especially if the 3 levels are in a class that don't advance the spellcasting capability of the character (which neither Champion nor Battlemaster would do). Two levels of Wizard, in particular for Bladesinger, provide more options for a Rogue that gets caught up in melee. It's the one that provides what is already a skill-monkey character more tools to use outside of combat with additional cantrips, additional spells available, as well as the opportunity to really feel like a magic Rogue by mixing AT/BS. There isn't really a bad mix of the two classes. With Fighter/AT, there definitely breakpoints that one needs to reach in AT before it's ok to multiclass Fighter.

How would you build out your AT/Fighter Nhorianscum? From level 1 and onward (not further then level 10, as very few campaigns ever reach that). Note it's most optimal level as well as it's least optimal level as well if you wouldn't mind. With the OP's specifications of course of being an Elf who can take advantage of Elven Accuracy. Linked below is how I'd envision an AT/BS build.


High Elf AT Rogue with any background. 7 skills. 17 Dexterity, 16 Intelligence, 13 Constitution, 10 Cha, 10 Wis, 8 Str. High Elf cantrip: Prestidigitation.
Level 1: Rogue 1. Nothing really to explain here.
Level 2: Rogue 2. Cunning Action, nothing else to explain here.
Level 3: Rogue 3. Arcane Trickster time. Cantrips: Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, GFB. Spells: Disguise Self, Silent Image, Mage Armor.
Level 4: AT 3, Wizard 1. More cantrips, more spells. Cantrips: BB, Message, Chill Touch (or Mold Earth, depends on the DM if I want combat or outside combat cantrips). Spells: Find Familiar, Shield, Absorb Elements, Featherfall, and then the two most useful Rituals for your campaign (most decided by your DM imo). I'd go with Comprehend Languages and Detect Magic.
Level 5: AT 3, Wizard 2. Bladesinger time. Pick up two more utility spells/rituals like Fog Cloud, Alarm, or Unseen Servant.
(This is where I feel the build really begins to shine. Your multiclassing is complete, and in one more level, you'll get access to Elven Accuracy and 18 Dexterity. You can deal solid damage with your choice of BB/GFB and Sneak Attack, as well as have plenty of spell slots and Bladesongs for high AC and fighting off elemental attacks.
Level 6: AT 4, BS 2. Elven Accuracy. 18 Dexterity and triple advantage. Pretty great level for us overall. Spells: Tasha's Hideous Laughter.
Level 7: AT 5, BS 2. Uncanny Dodge and increased Sneak Attack dice. A damage boost and a way to further mitigate damage.
Level 8: AT 6, BS 2. More Expertise's, and spell caster level 4.
(This is arguably the weakest level of the multiclass imo. We don't have access to actual 2nd level spells, and we aren't upgrading our damage output. This will be the "longest" level of our character's progression.
Level 9: AT 7, BS 2. Evasion, Sneak Attack dice, and 2nd level spells. We're replacing one of the Rogue spells for Invisibility, and picking up Shadowblade. I don't really need to explain the rest.
Level 10: Whatever you want at this point. The character has everything it needs from Rogue at this point, so you can either continue Rogue for AT features, or you can go Wizard for higher level spells.

I'd acknowledge this build's biggest weakness is at level 8, but levels 5-7 are fantastic. While level 8 will feel long, you still have all the tools necessary to be that magic Rogue you built your character to be.

[djreynolds]

You only have 1 attack per round, where a fighter has up to 4, so crit fishing may be tough to do with 1 attack

I would might just focus on arcane trickster and landing that sneak attack, you can always grab the lucky feat

If I was to grab a small dip, bladesinger offers the most because it keeps you alive with bladesong, it is a huge boon. Its there when you need it, for bonus action.

[Expected]

You only have 1 attack per round, where a fighter has up to 4, so crit fishing may be tough to do with 1 attack

I would might just focus on arcane trickster and landing that sneak attack, you can always grab the lucky feat

If I was to grab a small dip, bladesinger offers the most because it keeps you alive with bladesong, it is a huge boon. Its there when you need it, for bonus action.

That's true, however, I will have consistent sources of advantage, which will let me roll three times with EA, and my crits will hurt... a LOT. Especially compared to a Fighter who may or may not get most of their damage from GWM/SS.

[djreynolds]

That's true, however, I will have consistent sources of advantage, which will let me roll three times with EA, and my crits will hurt... a LOT. Especially compared to a Fighter who may or may not get most of their damage from GWM/SS.

And you can always grab 6 levels of bladesinger for an extra attack, also the spell selection in everything you can find scroll wise

Its tough to weigh, every level out of rogue is one less 1d6. If you multiclass now you and your party have to weight on you grabbing expertise at 6th

But that is the joy of the game is having choices

Riposte and sentinel will give you reactions based on you getting almost getting hit or you're friend.

You could always grab 2 levels of bladesinger and 3 of battlemaster.... its all there, just weigh your choices

[Trustypeaches]

Its tough to weigh, every level out of rogue is one less 1d6 If you multiclass now you and your party have to weight on you grabbing expertise at 6thNitpicking, but ever 2 levels is one less 1d6.

[Trustypeaches]

If you are getting smacked enough to burn 4/short rest and want more you're probably dead now.You don't need to get hit to activate Riposte.

You need to dodge a melee attack to activate riposte, which is quite easy with Shield + Defense Fighting Style + Medium Armor (or light armor at later levels) giving you an easy 18 AC, on top of your Shield castings.

[djreynolds]

The OP should wait, 5th is uncanny dodge and a 1d6, 6th is expertise, 7th is evasion and 1d6, 8th is a feat.

I would dip bladesinger, but uncanny dodge is a life saver IMO. Maybe wait til 5th

[CTurbo]

What are you really wanting out of this build? Do you want to be a better caster or are you just after the Bladesong? If you're only interested in Bladesong then it's not worth a 2 level investment. If you want to boost your casting by a mile then it is. If you just want to be better in melee then take the Fighter levels. Maybe even up to Fighter 5 eventually.

If I were to make a melee focused Arcane Trickster I would focus on the Shadow Blade + Booming Blade combo and probably grab Warcaster and take 5 levels of Battle Master. Riposte and Sentinel is a great combo. You should easily be able to pull off 2-3 Shadow Blade attacks each round along with two sneak attack and Booming Blade uses.

What I DON'T care for is Elven Accuracy. It's one of the most over-rated feats in the game IMO.

[Nhorianscum]

You gain 3 additional Wizard cantrips (of which OP has 4 already, meaning they can grab more of the options that you had to make decisions to not take as a normal AT, which include weapon cantrips, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, etc) as well as first level spells like Shield, Mage Armor, Absorb Elements, and Fog Cloud. Sure, you can grab any single one of these spells as an AT, but you can grab them all as a 1st level Wizard. Bladesong is a feature that isn't twice a day, but twice a short rest. And if the OP is building around the idea of setting themselves up as a High Elf AT/BS, they can easily have 16 Intelligence.

It's not worse then proficiency in Constitution saving throws or Warcaster, it's something you should use alongside those feats. Again, as a High Elf, it's easy enough to set up stats to be able to have 17 Dex, 13 Constitution, and 16 Intelligence (along with two 10's and an 8 in your remaining stats) to take advantage of Resilient Constitution down the line. Ten feet of additional move speed on a Rogue with access to Cunning Action is a pretty sweet feature that I don't really need to explain.



I'm confused as to the level comparison you're making here. What levels are you saying would there be an advantage for the AT/Fighter compared to the AT/BS? Is there a specific build path you have in your head that you're using as a comparison, because an actual build path hasn't been presented for the AT/Fighter or the AT/BS.

I actually just went and reviewed the Bladesong text, and will link it below. Nothing in the text says a thing about your Bladesong feature making any noise.

Starting at 2nd level, you can invoke a secret elven magic called the Bladesong, provided that you aren't wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield. It graces you with supernatural speed, agility, and focus. You can use a bonus action to start the Bladesong, which lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are incapacitated, if you don medium or heavy armor or a shield, or if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon. You can also dismiss the Bladesong at any time you choose (no action required).

While your Bladesong is active, you gain the following benefits:

-You gain a bonus to your AC equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of+ 1).
-Your walking speed increases by 10 feet.
-You have advantage on Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks.
-You gain a bonus to any Constitution saving throw you make to maintain your concentration on a spell. The bonus equals your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +l).

You can use this feature twice. You regain all expended uses of it when you finish a short or long rest.
As an additional point, the biggest things we're worried about losing in this progression is damage output and Rogue goodies. This would primarily include Uncanny Dodge and Evasion imo. Well, you should pick up Absorb Elements and Shield as one of your spells from your Wizard spellbook and simply keep them prepared. Those spells, plus your higher then normal AC (from high Dexterity and Bladesong) will make it pretty difficult for anyone to hit you AC-wise and able to mitigate damage elemental-wise.

If the OP's intention is to play a Rogue, 3 levels is an extremely tough sell. Especially if the 3 levels are in a class that don't advance the spellcasting capability of the character (which neither Champion nor Battlemaster would do). Two levels of Wizard, in particular for Bladesinger, provide more options for a Rogue that gets caught up in melee. It's the one that provides what is already a skill-monkey character more tools to use outside of combat with additional cantrips, additional spells available, as well as the opportunity to really feel like a magic Rogue by mixing AT/BS. There isn't really a bad mix of the two classes. With Fighter/AT, there definitely breakpoints that one needs to reach in AT before it's ok to multiclass Fighter.

How would you build out your AT/Fighter Nhorianscum? From level 1 and onward (not further then level 10, as very few campaigns ever reach that). Note it's most optimal level as well as it's least optimal level as well if you wouldn't mind. With the OP's specifications of course of being an Elf who can take advantage of Elven Accuracy. Linked below is how I'd...

Most of this made no sense to me at all.

In order, yeah you get the spellcasting from wizard at level 1. Level 2 is giving jack all sans the feature. Oh boy, more level1 spells and cantrips, the things AT gives anyways? So good!

Level 2 is, bladesong....wow....2/day...nothing. because these are all things we want on all-the-time.

Going deeper than 1 level into a multiclass on AT in tier 1-2 is just ugly period. Level 3 is just where actual benefits show up for wizard or fighter. 2 levels of wizard does not advance spellcasting here. It kills magical ambush, (worse casting), and gives us 2nd level, spells At level 9.

(Dip level, figjter)/Rouge2/dip level (cleric)/AT9.

No dead levels, no weak levels. Ambush and Rtalent at10/12 is tolerable. This is only worth it if a deeper dive in tier 3 is on the table. Dipping wizard 1 is a whatever thing. We're basically delaying progression by 1 for ritual caster with that dip.