Real talk: how in God's name does CR31 lich Szass Tam only have a +1 fort save?

[AnonymousPepper]

https://www.realmshelps.net/npc/szass.shtml

Literally, what? And that's just the most glaring flaw in his statblock.

I get that he's undead, but, like... surely, surely one of the most powerful magical threats in the setting - and one of the most likely Faerunian BBEGs - should be rocking better saves than that. How the heck does somebody get to be the ruler of Thay with a statblock that bad?

[AlanBruce]

https://www.realmshelps.net/npc/szass.shtml

Literally, what? And that's just the most glaring flaw in his statblock.

I get that he's undead, but, like... surely, surely one of the most powerful magical threats in the setting - and one of the most likely Faerunian BBEGs - should be rocking better saves than that. How the heck does somebody get to be the ruler of Thay with a statblock that bad?

The person who wrote down his statblock must’ve been in some sort of hurry and didn’t bother to check.

I haven’t checked the whole build but his first ten levels are as a Necromancer. The SRD tells us a 10th level wizard has a base Fortitude save of +3.

That’s even without a Constitution score, which he doesn’t have by virtue of being an undead.

From there, just check the rest of his PrC levels and get the base save. It should definitely be more than +1.

[Nifft]

NPC stat blocks and sample character stat blocks have always been written by one high-school intern each, on his or her last day at the office, and never proof-read nor edited.

FR books have always had bad mechanics -- they're intended to evoke fictional characters from books, not for play -- e.g. Spellfire.

FR NPCs had even less editorial oversight than usual since they're protected by authorial fiat.

You're seeing the compound effect of several detrimental patterns.

[Khedrac]

It's a transcription error - the source is given as the Forgotten Realms Cmapaign Sourcebook which has his stats on page 208 and gives him a +8 Fort save. Whether it's manual keying of the website or bad OCR (given the lack of standard errors it could be bad correction of OCR errors) is the question.

Morale is always double check web-based sources for book content. (I fell foul of this one by not double checking the Healer class - too lazy to get the book from downstairs - and I completely missed the prohibition on metal armor for an NPC I was building, oops.)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Khedrac
It's a transcription error - the source is given as the Forgotten Realms Cmapaign Sourcebook which has his stats on page 208 and gives him a +8 Fort save.

Yup, just checked my hardcopy FRCS and he’s got a Fort of +8.

As Khedrac noted, this has nothing to do with Wizards, but a mistake on the part of whoever entered this onto the website. It’s hardly fair to blame Wizards for that.

[knightfall]

Literally, what? And that's just the most glaring flaw in his statblock.

I get that he's undead, but, like... surely, surely one of the most powerful magical threats in the setting - and one of the most likely Faerunian BBEGs - should be rocking better saves than that. How the heck does somebody get to be the ruler of Thay with a statblock that bad?

In addition to the transcription error, there is also the consideration that liches have less incentive than most to bolster their Fortitude saves. As the SRD tells us, undead have...


• Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

A +8 Fort Save is still pretty vulnerable. One well-placed Glass Strike or Disintegrate causes an upper-mid-level caster to one-shot an epic BBEG in all likelihood. And yes, that wizard must actually get the opportunity to target an epic level wizard, but if Szass Tam is played like he's built that shouldn't be a problem.

[Doctor Awkward]

Better question:

Why does a Wizard 10/Red Wizard 10/Archmage 2/...whatever-class-"Epic"-is-supposed-to-be 7 only have 20 hit dice?

Even in 3.0 epic progression, you continued gaining hit dice beyond level 20.

[Jeraa]

Better question:

Why does a Wizard 10/Red Wizard 10/Archmage 2/...whatever-class-"Epic"-is-supposed-to-be 7 only have 20 hit dice?

Even in 3.0 epic progression, you continued gaining hit dice beyond level 20.

The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book predated the full epic rules. Look at page 289 of that book, it tells you what epic level characters got. One thing they don't get is additional hit dice. Which is why when the Epic Level Handbook did come out, Szass Tam received a new stat block (ELH, page 297).

[Remuko]

A +8 Fort Save is still pretty vulnerable. One well-placed Glass Strike or Disintegrate causes an upper-mid-level caster to one-shot an epic BBEG in all likelihood. And yes, that wizard must actually get the opportunity to target an epic level wizard, but if Szass Tam is played like he's built that shouldn't be a problem.

Ive never understood this and I just looked up the spell again to double check and...do people really think that Disintegrate follows the object rules when targeting undead creatures? I know undead arent affected by effects that require Fort saves unless it also works on objects, but that doesnt make them objects or imply one should use the object effect of the spell on them. Disintegrate will, on a (likely) failed save do 2d6 per caster level to undead, not instantly one-shot them.

[Doctor Awkward]

Ive never understood this and I just looked up the spell again to double check and...do people really think that Disintegrate follows the object rules when targeting undead creatures? I know undead arent affected by effects that require Fort saves unless it also works on objects, but that doesnt make them objects or imply one should use the object effect of the spell on them. Disintegrate will, on a (likely) failed save do 2d6 per caster level to undead, not instantly one-shot them.

No... we think Disintegrate follows the normal creature rules, because that's how undead work.

"Immune to any effect which requires a Fortitude save unless it also affects objects."

Disintegrate also affects objects, so when targeted with disintegrate undead must make a Fortitude save or take 2d6 points of damage per caster level as normal.

The problem is that undead statistically have very low HP for their level on account of not having a CON score, so 20-24d6 could very likely one-shot a lich.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's at least +7 from base saves alone. They probably counted his nonability Con as a 0 with a -5 modifier, and forgot to include the epic base save bonus.

I actually completely redid the builds and stats of every well-known FR NPC I ever used. Each one is on a sheet of paper folded in half and tucked into the appropriate spot in my FRCS book.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

*snip*Adding to Doctor Awkward's reply, in 3.0 (when Szass Tam's stat block was written), Disintegrate was purely a Fort save or die and had the same object clause. Besides which, in 3.5 a core Wizard 15 chucking an Empowered Disintegrate will do 45d6 damage on a failed save, which should be entirely within expectations. Lastly, Glass Strike is a fort save or be turned to glass which works on objects, with the added benefits of no touch attack and not triggering lich phylactery regeneration.

[Khedrac]

It's at least +7 from base saves alone. They probably counted his nonability Con as a 0 with a -5 modifier, and forgot to include the epic base save bonus.

I actually completely redid the builds and stats of every well-known FR NPC I ever used. Each one is on a sheet of paper folded in half and tucked into the appropriate spot in my FRCS book.

If you read above you will see that WotC correctly caculated the save at +8 (though the question of why no +5 resistance item arises) - the website is wrong according to its own listed source.

[Remuko]

No... we think Disintegrate follows the normal creature rules, because that's how undead work.

"Immune to any effect which requires a Fortitude save unless it also affects objects."

Disintegrate also affects objects, so when targeted with disintegrate undead must make a Fortitude save or take 2d6 points of damage per caster level as normal.

The problem is that undead statistically have very low HP for their level on account of not having a CON score, so 20-24d6 could very likely one-shot a lich.

Ah. I've just seen similar statements and the way they always assume it just instantly wins had me confused. That does make sense as you are right (tho I often give undead that at meant to be anything beyond mindless drones max hp per hd to make up for their lack of con somewhat).


Adding to Doctor Awkward's reply, in 3.0 (when Szass Tam's stat block was written), Disintegrate was purely a Fort save or die and had the same object clause. Besides which, in 3.5 a core Wizard 15 chucking an Empowered Disintegrate will do 45d6 damage on a failed save, which should be entirely within expectations. Lastly, Glass Strike is a fort save or be turned to glass which works on objects, with the added benefits of no touch attack and not triggering lich phylactery regeneration.

Ah I'd forgot about 3.0 Disintegrate. Nasty. Yeah 45d6 is potentially a lot of damage for sure.

Id never heard of glass strike before this thread so thats interesting to know!

[AnonymousPepper]

Even with +8... it's still pretty hilariously weak though.

What also gets me is that for a supposed hyper-chessmaster, he's only rocking 20 int.

Hell, nobody in the Realms has over 24, which is strange because epic spells.

Also, uh... looking at the Simbul's stats, somebody wanna tell me how the hell she supposedly soloed the entire army of Thay, when they themselves have eight epic casters leading them? She ain't that strong, statwise.

Basically, everyone in the Realms is waaaaaay understatted for what they do.

[Melcar]

https://www.realmshelps.net/npc/szass.shtml

Literally, what? And that's just the most glaring flaw in his statblock.

I get that he's undead, but, like... surely, surely one of the most powerful magical threats in the setting - and one of the most likely Faerunian BBEGs - should be rocking better saves than that. How the heck does somebody get to be the ruler of Thay with a statblock that bad?

His base save is: 10/10/18 just for his levels. The you have his stats (Dex and Wis) plus feats and items. The official writeup in FRCS has him at 8/10/21, but that is before epic level handbook was a thing. In ELH he has: 12/14/25. However, his true base (10/10/18) plus stats and items (Given his position of power and advanced magical abilities, Szass Tam can easily acquire nearly any sort of nonartifact magic item), brings him to a real (from official writeup stats) to: 15/17/28, with a +5 cloak of resistance. (Personally, I have given him a +10 cloak of resistance though)

One thing you have got to remember with all Forgotten Realms write-ups are, that they are build by people who 1) did not know the 3.X version very well, 2) build them from a fluff point of view (The Simbul being both sorcerer and wizard, which is just stupid) and 3) did a really poor job. This means that for any FR NPC, to be anywhere close to what they are able to do lore-wise or be anywhere close to their CR, you have to rebuild, and optimize all of them from scratch for them to be anywhere close to their "real" or supposed power!

Btw, he is far from the strongest in the setting... Larloch, Ioulaum, the Srinshee is all quite a lot stronger than he. Here's a short list of the official 3.x top five:

41 Ioulaum (LN elder brain lich Wiz31/Acm5/Netherese Arcanist5) (p101 Lost Empires of Faerun)
36 Qysar Shoon VII (NE male human demilich Necromancer31/Acm5) (p121 Lost Empires of Faerun)
36 The Skulls (CN advanced flameskull Sor26/Acm5/NethereseArcanist5) (p111 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
35 Telamont Tanthul (NE male shade Wiz20/Acm5/Sha10) (p82 Lords of Darkness)
33 Rhangaun (NE male human lich Wiz20/Acm5/Epic8) (p178 Lords of Darkness)

There is a super cool storry in the old "Netheril: Empire of Magic" on page 4. If shows how Szass Tam is clearly Larloch inferior... Its a cool story though!



What also gets me is that for a supposed hyper-chessmaster, he's only rocking 20 int.

Well I can tell you that my version of him has him at 43 int:

18 base, 2 for lich, 3 for age, 5 for tome, 7 for level, and a +8 int item = 43... My versions of the FR NPCs always have 18 base in their primary stat, always have read 6 +5 tomes, and have a minimum of +6 items to all stats... In this case +8.


EDIT: Come to think of it, my version of Szass Tam is actually level 35, (20 Wiz/ 10 Red Wizard/ 5 Arch Mage (3.0 version)) so he actually has 46 int. (since he has a Headband of Brilliance +10 - to Int, Wis and Cha)

[DarkSoul]

Ah. I've just seen similar statements and the way they always assume it just instantly wins had me confused. That does make sense as you are right (tho I often give undead that at meant to be anything beyond mindless drones max hp per hd to make up for their lack of con somewhat).Tweak Unholy Toughness to let undead use their Charisma modifier instead of Constitution for all purposes. It helps.

[Willie the Duck]

Morale is always double check web-based sources for book content.

I think you mean the moral, but that just highlights the issue perfectly.


Overall, yes obviously the transcription issue is the first big problem. Beyond that, creating epic characters for the FGCS before the epic rules were created caused some serious issues as well. Finally, the entire undead/construct rules on constitution scores and fortitude saves (and being treated as objects, despite object-affecting spells getting less oversight) all seem like one of those things that might have sounded right in the design phase ('undead have no metabolism, what would a constitution score for them even mean?') but should have been caught during playtesting as a huge wrench in the gears and never should have gotten into the final game (3e, much less somehow making it into 3.5 as well).

[Remuko]

Tweak Unholy Toughness to let undead use their Charisma modifier instead of Constitution for all purposes. It helps.

yeah ive considered that. i didnt know of its existence the last time i was really involved in any serious game which was years ago sadly.

[Melcar]

Tweak Unholy Toughness to let undead use their Charisma modifier instead of Constitution for all purposes. It helps.

Personally I just give them full health at each level... that helps too. I have considered your idea, but 12 HP per level usually is fine...

... Take my version of Larloch... he's level 47, so he has 564 hp. He also has three Crafted Contingency Spells (Harm), that goes of at 75%, 50% and 25% health, effectively giving him 450 more...

[DarkSoul]

Personally I just give them full health at each level... that helps too. I have considered your idea, but 12 HP per level usually is fine...

... Take my version of Larloch... he's level 47, so he has 564 hp. He also has three Crafted Contingency Spells (Harm), that goes of at 75%, 50% and 25% health, effectively giving him 450 more...Do both? I was also meaning to use their Charisma modifier on Fort saves, in the spirit of the thread topic.

I use max hit points a lot in the campaign I run so usually that's enough, but undead need something more even with a d12 HD, in my opinion.

[Melcar]

Do both?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by do both...

[DarkSoul]

Max hp and unholy toughness.

[Asmotherion]

He forgot to wear his Cloak of Resistance?

Jokes Asside the entry is incorrect.

Wizard (Necromancer) levels alone escalate to a +3 Fortitude. His Red Wizard Levels escalate to an other +3 to a total of +6. Calculating this whith a Cloak of Resistance+5 would give him 11 Base Fortitude Save (Meaning they forgot to include the 1 from 11 which is more logical than him having only 1).

if you want him to even better resist Fort Saves he probably has access to the spell Ruin Delver's Fortune (since he has access to all sort of spells) giving him his cha bonus (+5) to a save of his choice as an immediate Action.

[Melcar]

He forgot to wear his Cloak of Resistance?

Jokes Asside the entry is incorrect.

Wizard (Necromancer) levels alone escalate to a +3 Fortitude. His Red Wizard Levels escalate to an other +3 to a total of +6. Calculating this whith a Cloak of Resistance+5 would give him 11 Base Fortitude Save (Meaning they forgot to include the 1 from 11 which is more logical than him having only 1).

if you want him to even better resist Fort Saves he probably has access to the spell Ruin Delver's Fortune (since he has access to all sort of spells) giving him his cha bonus (+5) to a save of his choice as an immediate Action.

Just to nit pick... You are forgetting the rules for being an epic (above level 20) character, which gives +1 save/ 2 levels. So his actual base saves (to the best of my calculations) are: 10/10/18. Adding then a cloak of resistance +5 (which is really a minimum for a Lich of that stature, wealth and power) gives him: 15/15/23 (without considering stats!)

[Khedrac]

He forgot to wear his Cloak of Resistance?

Jokes Asside the entry is incorrect.

Wizard (Necromancer) levels alone escalate to a +3 Fortitude. His Red Wizard Levels escalate to an other +3 to a total of +6. Calculating this whith a Cloak of Resistance+5 would give him 11 Base Fortitude Save (Meaning they forgot to include the 1 from 11 which is more logical than him having only 1).

if you want him to even better resist Fort Saves he probably has access to the spell Ruin Delver's Fortune (since he has access to all sort of spells) giving him his cha bonus (+5) to a save of his choice as an immediate Action.


Just to nit pick... You are forgetting the rules for being an epic (above level 20) character, which gives +1 save/ 2 levels. So his actual base saves (to the best of my calculations) are: 10/10/18. Adding then a cloak of resistance +5 (which is really a minimum for a Lich of that stature, wealth and power) gives him: 15/15/23 (without considering stats!)

Guys, please read the posts above. WotC calclated his base save correctly - at +8 (though I totally agree that he forgot to put on his cloak of resistance).
He does not follow the Epic Level Handbook rules because they had not yet been written - the PGtF includes a class named "Epic" which he has levels in and it follows different rules for save calculation.

The answer to the original question was "no - the website has failed to correctly reproduce the contents of the book; and anyway more up-to-date stats for him were published later".