Throwing monks and throwing soulknives [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Florian

2018-11-25, 03:43 AM

???

OP ruleslawyering BS. You know that ammunition comes in large batches, with a batch priced similarly to a regular weapon. So, to use a tame example, when you have returning shuriken, why should you need the whole batch? Just buy enough and pay only a percentage.... (like 5 out of 50, which is only 10% of the price of a batch. Now look at the statement to cost equivalency and you have paid only 1% relative to 5 single weapons....)

But is it better than a melee monk? Does it provide a decent excuse to dump strength and wisdom in favor of dexterity, slightly alleviating MAD issues?

No.

Seriously, don't overdo it wis WIS, it is not _that_ important for a Monk, then you're not going too mad, especially when you focus on STR, keep DEX, CON and WIS on a equal level, ignore INT and dump CHA hard.

Sian

2018-11-25, 05:23 AM

as of the Soulknife question ... if you consider Soulbow (PrC from Complete Psionic) a valid alternative to throwing the knives, it might actually be competent enough that it (barely) squicks ahead of regular Soulknife ... for all that it's a low bar to pass,

emeraldstreak

2018-11-25, 05:28 AM

I wouldn't bother with a Monk for less than this (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1133161) by level 10.

Fizban

2018-11-25, 06:27 AM

I would say that anyone concerned with "viability" should not use a shuriken monk or a throwing soulknife. There is support for shuriken builds, but none of it is in the monk class- you might use a monk dip into other stuff, but not a straight monk, monk+ other dips, or monk+monk PrCs. The options for powering up throwing builds are essentially all unavailable to a soulknife simply because being a soulknife means not having or being able to use those things, and they're not even allowed to make more than one blade per round- but as mentioned, there's already the Soulbow PrC that lets you shoot mind bullets instead.

The primary use of shuriken is that they are drawn as a free action (as ammunition), so you don't need Quick Draw. The primary use of Throw Mind Blade is to draw attention to the fact that someone realized you'd never have reason to melee after Free Draw so they made multi-throwing explicitly impossible until 17th level. Any attempt to optimize the basic throw on a pure soulknife relies entirely on how much extra damage you can put into a single throw with nothing but feats- Psychic Strike and Psionic Shot add a non-zero amount of damage. You actually can make two throws per round by manifesting twin short swords, but unless you have strength=lol you're probably still better off cycling between charge and throw. If you do have strength=lol, then you'd use Brutal Throw and whatever the ranged Power Attack feat is called (probably Ranged Power Attack).

ShurikVch

2018-11-25, 06:37 AM

I came there expecting to see a build which is abusing Fling Ally and Leadership (otherwise, where will them get so much monks and soulknives?)

Buddy76

2018-11-25, 08:59 AM

OP, this thread might give you some ideas: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?129467-3-5-Soulknife-Unarmed-Strike#post_7188203

Zaq

2018-11-25, 11:51 AM

But is it better than a melee monk? Does it provide a decent excuse to dump strength and wisdom in favor of dexterity, slightly alleviating MAD issues?

No.

To elaborate, I mean, what are you gaining out of being a Monk here? Flurry? You'd be better off just taking a level or two of Fighter and getting Rapid Shot and Quick Draw, then throwing normal weapons. That'd still be underpowered, but you'd at least have full BAB and non-awful AC (even if you go DEX-primary, wouldn't it be better to be, like, a DEX-primary class that can wear armor and gain armor enhancements and stuff?).

The only advantage shurikens really have is that they're thrown weapons that follow (in some ways) the ammunition rules. So you can draw them as a free action (again, Quick Draw is just a dip in Fighter away) and you can arguably enchant them on the cheap (but that's not nearly as useful if you actually throw them, because then they break; it's useful for cheesing out cheap enhancements like Eager and Warning). Otherwise, they have hilariously awful damage (dice only barely matter long-term, but it's also hard for you to add more than just STR to your static mods for them), uninspiring range, and, well, that's about it. At least daggers have an improved critical range.

Monks, as we all know, are garbage, but what are they intended to get that's allegedly able to make them better at fighting? Basically you're looking at Flurry, Stunning Fist, and increased unarmed damage. Those latter two don't work with shuriken, so all you have is Flurry. Flurry is, numerically, about the same as TWF or Rapid Shot, either of which a normal throwing character can just take. But you still have all the Monk downsides like low BAB without a tradeoff in damage boosts, ugly AC, and so on.

So honestly, no. I'd rather be a melee Monk. At least a melee Monk can do Stunning Fist without extra headache, even if that's not really a super-powerful option. But you're going to struggle to outdamage a basic crossbow for a long time (even adding your STR, you've got to have about 16 STR before your damage expression starts being roughly equivalent), and you won't be adding value to the field other than your paltry damage output.

What's the benefit you're hoping to gain, really?

noob

2018-11-25, 12:00 PM

Monks are valid thrown weapons however soul knives are improvised weapons so throwing soulknives is usually less efficient.

Troacctid

2018-11-25, 12:39 PM

How about a shuriken monk that has Elemental Power shurikens (DMG2) to summon elementals 50 times per day?

Telonius

2018-11-25, 11:16 PM

I came there expecting to see a build which is abusing Fling Ally and Leadership (otherwise, where will them get so much monks and soulknives?)

I'm pretty sure the base damage of a flung Monk is higher than the base damage of a thrown shuriken.

zergling.exe

2018-11-26, 12:07 AM

OP ruleslawyering BS. You know that ammunition comes in large batches, with a batch priced similarly to a regular weapon. So, to use a tame example, when you have returning shuriken, why should you need the whole batch? Just buy enough and pay only a percentage.... (like 5 out of 50, which is only 10% of the price of a batch. Now look at the statement to cost equivalency and you have paid only 1% relative to 5 single weapons....)

While you CAN put returning on shuriken, it's kind of a waste...

Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as
ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork
or otherwise special versions of them (see Masterwork Weapons,
below), and what happens to them after they are thrown.

So you throw it, and then it breaks on impact; unable to return on the next round. See Zaq's post for how you can 'cheese' the pricing on them. Though I'm not sure if you can enchant less than a full stack, can you?

Hmm, reading the magic weapon rules, it appears that shuriken do NOT get a pricing reduction, the rules always refer to 'arrow, crossbow bolt, or sling bullet' not ammunition; and they never use the word ammunition in regards to the actual rules affecting those three.

Katie Boundary

2018-11-29, 09:03 PM

Since people are talking about prestige classes and flinging allies, I should probably clarify my intent.

I'm making some ECL 2 pre-made characters for teaching newbs how to play. I've settled on aasimar paladin, catfolk ranger, dromite wilder, elf wizard, gnome bard, half-giant psychic warrior, human monk, killoren druid, kobold sorcerer, and so on down to warforged fighter and xeph soulknife. I may also build a Blue psion and Vanara shaman. All are using a stat array of 16-14-12-12-10-8.

I'd like to know how to assign stats to the human monk and xeph soulknife to make them suck as little as possible while still being a human monk and xeph soulknife. With the monk's MAD issues and the xeph's -2 str and +2 dex, dumping strength to focus on ranged attacks looked like something worth investigating.

Zaq

2018-11-29, 09:52 PM

You still need STR for damage. Even—especially—on shuriken. Dumping STR is a fast-track to uselessness on a low-level throwing monk.

GrayDeath

2018-11-30, 09:55 AM

I came there expecting to see a build which is abusing Fling Ally and Leadership (otherwise, where will them get so much monks and soulknives?)

Monks are valid thrown weapons however soul knives are improvised weapons so throwing soulknives is usually less efficient.

`Nough said. ^^

However to the OP: Dont make pregenerated Characters of Classes that have so many issues. They are not meant for New Players. heck, they are traps for experienced Players!

Katie Boundary

2018-11-30, 04:33 PM

Sorry, you're right. PHB, page 134:

Strength Bonus: When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result.

So much for that idea.

MaxiDuRaritry

2018-11-30, 05:14 PM

noob

2018-11-30, 05:27 PM

He throws his unarmed strike instead of shurikens, but this monk has everyone else beat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863).

according to the rules as written he can if he wants to throw his whole body at his opponent and then have the body return to him whatever that means.

MaxiDuRaritry

2018-11-30, 05:40 PM

according to the rules as written he can if he wants to throw his whole body at his opponent and then have the body return to him whatever that means.Returning actually states that it returns the weapon to the space the thrower was standing in when the throw occurred.

I'll just let you think about that for a moment.

Katie Boundary

2018-11-30, 05:44 PM

MaxiDuRaritry

2018-11-30, 05:51 PM

New question: what about weapon finesse? Could I apply weapon finesse to unarmed strike (if a monk) or mindblades (if a soulknife) and... wait, no, that only affects attack rolls, not damage rolls.

Damn. Isn't there ANY way to make these classes not depend on strength?Tome of Battle has a feat that grants Dex to damage in addition to Str when in a Shadow Hand stance. Weapon Finesse gives Dex to attack instead of Str. Soulbow grants +Wis to damage with soul arrows. You can add tons of damage via all the enhancements showcased in that link I posted. Shiba protector grants +Wis to pretty much everything. Factotum can give you +Int to your attacks and damage a limited number of times per encounter.

noob

2018-11-30, 06:06 PM

Returning actually states that it returns the weapon to the space the thrower was standing in when the throw occurred.

I'll just let you think about that for a moment.

So throwing your body moves you?
Since when is your body you?

This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown. A returning weapon flies through the air back to the creature that threw it. It returns to the thrower just before the creature’s next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn).

Catching a returning weapon when it comes back is a free action. If the character can’t catch it, or if the character has moved since throwing it, the weapon drops to the ground in the square from which it was thrown.

I had my dm say that if I had a monk use his body as a thrown weapon it would have no body after throwing it.

MaxiDuRaritry

2018-11-30, 06:19 PM

So throwing your body moves you?
Since when is your body you?Your mind and soul inhabit your body. Your body moves, and so do you, unless you have somehow separated your spirit from your physical form. That's kind of how bodies work.

I had my dm say that if I had a monk use his body as a thrown weapon it would have no body after throwing it.Your DM is a moron.

Psyren

2018-11-30, 09:57 PM

Troacctid

2018-12-01, 02:07 AM

according to the rules as written he can if he wants to throw his whole body at his opponent and then have the body return to him whatever that means.
How exactly does a monk throw her own body? Which rule, specifically, allows that? Do you have a page number?

MaxiDuRaritry

2018-12-01, 02:12 AM

I think disallowing "body/fist throwing" is perfectly reasonable.

Pathfinder has the Far Strike Monk (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo-monk-archetypes/far-strike-monk-monk-archetype/) if you want a thrower-focused monk.Do note that the 3rd edition kensai explicitly allows +1 throwing unarmed strikes by enhancing one's fists, though I prefer enhancing the entire body via the monk's unarmed strikes, so you can shoulder-check your way through your enemies -- ie, you Kool-Aid Man through the bodies of your enemies, as in the link I posted. Otherwise, you can do a reasonable approximation of Saitama, especially if you're a d2 crusader.

Troacctid

2018-12-01, 02:19 AM

though I prefer enhancing the entire body via the monk's unarmed strikes
Like seriously I don't know where you're getting this thing about enhancing the entire body of a monk as an unarmed strike. I'm not aware of any rule that permits this. According to the monk class description, you can use your fists, elbows, knees, and/or feet for unarmed strikes. That's it.

MaxiDuRaritry

2018-12-01, 02:27 AM

Like seriously I don't know where you're getting this thing about enhancing the entire body of a monk as an unarmed strike. I'm not aware of any rule that permits this. According to the monk class description, you can use your fists, elbows, knees, and/or feet for unarmed strikes. That's it.Any part of the monk's body can be used if conceivable. The entries given are examples, not an exhaustive list. Or are you saying that headbutts, shoulder-checks, hip-checks, body-checks, and such aren't to be considered unarmed strikes despite being strikes that are made unarmed?

Troacctid

2018-12-01, 02:37 AM

Any part of the monk's body can be used if conceivable. The entries given are examples, not an exhaustive list. Or are you saying that headbutts, shoulder-checks, hip-checks, body-checks, and such aren't to be considered unarmed strikes despite being strikes that are made unarmed?
1. Where in the RAW does it say you can use any part of your body?
2. How do you get from "any part" to "the whole thing" (AKA decidedly not a "part")?

noob

2018-12-01, 06:45 AM

1. Where in the RAW does it say you can use any part of your body?
2. How do you get from "any part" to "the whole thing" (AKA decidedly not a "part")?

I was referencing to the part where they say your body is a weapon which is not the same thing as having all your body parts be usable to strike.

Manyasone

2018-12-01, 08:23 AM

You mention PF races and psyren already mentioned the monk archetype. So i'll just pipe in and mention the soul bolt archetype from the PF dsp soulknife. A soulknife that does not suck.

Troacctid

2018-12-01, 11:12 AM

I was referencing to the part where they say your body is a weapon which is not the same thing as having all your body parts be usable to strike.
Which part? Do you have a quote?

ericgrau

2018-12-01, 11:30 AM

How does the viability of shuriken-based monks compare to that of melee monks?

How does the viability of throwing-based Soulknives compare to that of melee soulknives?

I know they're both crap but I'm interested in knowing how to make them suck less, especially at low levels. Assume an array of 16/14/12/12/10/8

(1) Much less because in core at least monks are meant for special attacks not damage dealing. Melee damage and shuriken damage is an ok backup (even with magic ammo), but nothing more. For a look at what focused damage dealing should do, look up some volley archer builds. As you get into higher optimization you get tricks and magic items that overwhelm special attacks, which is a bit of a tangent. But you also get uberchargers which hurt the viability of volley archers. In lower op (i.e., every game I've ever played) I've done very well with volley archers due to tactical advantage. So that's also something to consider based on the level of optimization you're looking for. Start with volley archer and then if you need to make it optimal consider ubercharger optimization and not only volley archer optimization. At the extreme it's something like a ranged shocktrooper death cannon.

(2) Pretty good compared to most throwers. They don't run into issues once they hit magic weapon levels. Though, again, as you optimize more there are magic items that overcome this in other classes and make the soulknife's class features less useful. Plus the soulknife can only rematerilize his thrown blade once a round. So he's probably better off mixing melee attacks with a thrown soulknife as his last attack. Or two with TWF. Removing this disadvantage is a start. But again if using high optimization consider something like a throwing shocktrooper and so on. Even at lower optimization throwers are only great up until a composite longbow is affordable. After that point they're better for mixing melee with throwing. You could buff to overcome this for similar dedicated throwing damage, but what I think might be better is to treat it like a feature instead of a bug. Assume all soulknives mix melee with throwing (perhaps intentionally not granting more than 1 throw per hand per round), and buff that combat style instead.

noob

2018-12-01, 12:54 PM

Which part? Do you have a quote?

Read the description of the monk class.(the text that seems only like fluff but there is no such thing as a distinction between fluff and mechanics)
Sadly the part I am talking about is not in the srd but you can find it in a physical version of a player manual.

emeraldstreak

2018-12-01, 01:34 PM

New question: what about weapon finesse? Could I apply weapon finesse to unarmed strike (if a monk) or mindblades (if a soulknife) and... wait, no, that only affects attack rolls, not damage rolls.

Damn. Isn't there ANY way to make these classes not depend on strength?

Monks can be built for Strength, Dexterity (Weapon Finesse+Shadow Blade), or Wisdom (Intuitive Attack). All three derive the main chunk of their damage from damage dice optimization. This is an advanced optimization technique 99% of players cannot pull off. There's no guide for it, only scattered posts about it from me and several other experienced optimizers.

Troacctid

2018-12-01, 01:53 PM

Read the description of the monk class.(the text that seems only like fluff but there is no such thing as a distinction between fluff and mechanics)
Sadly the part I am talking about is not in the srd but you can find it in a physical version of a player manual.
The description of the monk class says nothing of the sort. You must be misremembering.

darkdragoon

2018-12-01, 04:57 PM

For the sake of pedantry a lot of strikes fall into the fist forms of various "kung fu" styles, many of which one would expect a depiction of an Eastern martial artist to know.

ShurikVch

2018-12-02, 09:15 AM

Damn. Isn't there ANY way to make these classes not depend on strength?Well, Holy Monk got Turn Undead, thus - able to use Divine Might feat

Fierce WSA able to redistribute your Dex bonus from AC to damage (Power Attack-style)

Also, how about the Fuuma Shuriken?
https://i.skyrock.net/6839/63326839/pics/2971526829_1_5_Mcwr9Dtw.jpg
Colossal heavy metal shuriken - 2d6 damage before any magical WSA

Katie Boundary

2018-12-02, 02:25 PM

What is WSA?

ShurikVch

2018-12-02, 02:38 PM

What is WSA?Weapon Special Ability(ies) - i. e. anything which you're slap on your magical weapon besides the basical "+number"

HouseRules

2018-12-02, 10:46 PM

Much better if the monk or soulknife is a dwarf?

AnimeTheCat

2018-12-03, 08:50 AM

The description of the monk class says nothing of the sort. You must be misremembering.

Monks are highly trained in fighting unarmed, giving them considerable advantages when doing so. At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full.

I think that's the specific part of the text that is being referenced. I, personally, am in agreeance that the whole body isn't something that can be considered in that situation, and I'm also under the personal opinion that you can't have fists with the throwing weapon enchantment on them unless you're willing to have them physically seperate from your body and then be regenerated later, which would of course come with damage to ones self and other penalties for being one-handed, legged, armed, footed, etc. That's my opinion and isn't grounded in rules in any way, other than my observation of common sense.

Hunter Noventa

2018-12-03, 09:42 AM

I think that's the specific part of the text that is being referenced. I, personally, am in agreeance that the whole body isn't something that can be considered in that situation, and I'm also under the personal opinion that you can't have fists with the throwing weapon enchantment on them unless you're willing to have them physically seperate from your body and then be regenerated later, which would of course come with damage to ones self and other penalties for being one-handed, legged, armed, footed, etc. That's my opinion and isn't grounded in rules in any way, other than my observation of common sense.

What if you're a Warforged and put Returning on your fists. Would they then just rocket back to you and re-attach since you just made a Rocket Punch?

...I'm gonna build that someday.

Troacctid

2018-12-03, 10:03 AM

I think that's the specific part of the text that is being referenced.
I referenced that part, yes.

Like seriously I don't know where you're getting this thing about enhancing the entire body of a monk as an unarmed strike. I'm not aware of any rule that permits this. According to the monk class description, you can use your fists, elbows, knees, and/or feet for unarmed strikes. That's it.
It doesn't support the "whole body" or "any part of the body" claims, though; if anything it supports the opposite claim.

Psyren

2018-12-03, 10:36 AM

Do note that the 3rd edition kensai explicitly allows +1 throwing unarmed strikes by enhancing one's fists

I checked Complete Warrior and neither the Kensai entry nor the statblock state this anywhere, explicitly or otherwise. There is no line about getting to ignore the prerequisites for the weapon special ability you choose to imbue, so the line about returning only being eligible for thrown weapons (i.e. melee weapons with a range increment) still applies, and the sample Kensai does not have returning fists either.

If you want to "throw" your unarmed strikes, the proper way is with a projection technique of some kind, like Ring The Golden Bell, Blood Wind, or PF's Blood Crow Strike.

I referenced that part, yes.

It doesn't support the "whole body" or "any part of the body" claims, though; if anything it supports the opposite claim.

Furthermore, Kensai itself also seems to invalidate this claim, since the example it gives is that a six-armed kensai who wants to enhance his fists must pay more to do so than one with two arms. If "whole-body-unarmed-strike" was a thing you could enhance that way, this line wouldn't be necessary.

ShurikVch

2018-12-03, 12:22 PM

I checked Complete Warrior and neither the Kensai entry nor the statblock state this anywhere, explicitly or otherwise.Actually, it wasn't in the Complete Warrior, but in the Savage Species:
For instance, a +1 throwing returning necklace of natural weapons would apply its enhancement bonus and the throwing and returning special abilities to one or more of the wearer’s natural weapons.
...

Furthermore, Kensai itself also seems to invalidate this claim, since the example it gives is that a six-armed kensai who wants to enhance his fists must pay more to do so than one with two arms. If "whole-body-unarmed-strike" was a thing you could enhance that way, this line wouldn't be necessary.I'm pretty sure this line is incorrect - it's writer, apparently, didn't knew how Unarmed Strike works

AnimeTheCat

2018-12-03, 03:01 PM

What if you're a Warforged and put Returning on your fists. Would they then just rocket back to you and re-attach since you just made a Rocket Punch?

...I'm gonna build that someday.

If you also had self resetting traps of mending that would heal 1 point of damage to the seperation point inscribed on your vambraces or biceps, sure I'd allow it (and would be pretty cool), but that's substantially different from a human or other biologically normal creature shooting their fist from their hand (unless your kakuzu from Naruto... but then I don't think you're human or biological).

I referenced that part, yes.

It doesn't support the "whole body" or "any part of the body" claims, though; if anything it supports the opposite claim.

I'm in agree with you, for the record. I was just showing what I suspected was the supporting line for the claim being made. I would say that extends to shoulders as well (typical shoulder slam in CQC to jostle to opponent), but for the most part, that pretty well covers it. Maybe incluede the head too for headbutts.

animewatcha

2018-12-03, 03:26 PM

Why settle for separate things? There are methods to attach WSA to unarmed strikes/whole body. Make it so the monk can turn in and out of a shuriken. So IIRC there was a monk/soulknife/actavist or something build a long time ago. So why not have a throwing shuriken-ed monk/soulknife?

Psyren

2018-12-03, 05:47 PM

Actually, it wasn't in the Complete Warrior, but in the Savage Species:

I was told Kensai "explicitly" stated this, which it doesn't.

As far as Savage Species, even putting aside that it's 3.0 (and a horribly edited book in general), that appears to be a property specific to the necklace itself: "any weapon special quality may be applied to this necklace, and the quality then applies to those natural weapons as well." It doesn't give a Kensai or anyone else carte blanche to ignore such restrictions, nor does it explicitly treat US as a single weapon either.

I'm pretty sure this line is incorrect - it's writer, apparently, didn't knew how Unarmed Strike works

That is how Kensai works, regardless of how enhancing US in other ways works (and see above for my thoughts on the necklace of natural attacks.)

Rynjin

2018-12-03, 06:03 PM

I think disallowing "body/fist throwing" is perfectly reasonable.

Pathfinder has the Far Strike Monk (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo-monk-archetypes/far-strike-monk-monk-archetype/) if you want a thrower-focused monk.

Pathfinder also codifies the "OP ruleslawyering BS" about Shuriken being ammo (and thus able to be priced as such, and drawn as a non-action) people mentioned above.

Plus PF's version of the Soulknife gets the Soulbolt archetype, whose close range bolt deals a d10 and adds Str, as a normal thrown weapon. Augmented by Blade Skills, they can be pretty darn potent. Notably, Focused Offense and Focused Defense allow Soulknives of any archetype to be entirely Wis-SAD, so a thrown weapon character can safely dump Str, max Wis and Dex, and enjoy great saves and AC on top of solid damage.

Psyren

2018-12-03, 06:39 PM

Pathfinder also codifies the "OP ruleslawyering BS" about Shuriken being ammo (and thus able to be priced as such, and drawn as a non-action) people mentioned above.

Plus PF's version of the Soulknife gets the Soulbolt archetype, whose close range bolt deals a d10 and adds Str, as a normal thrown weapon. Augmented by Blade Skills, they can be pretty darn potent. Notably, Focused Offense and Focused Defense allow Soulknives of any archetype to be entirely Wis-SAD, so a thrown weapon character can safely dump Str, max Wis and Dex, and enjoy great saves and AC on top of solid damage.

Worth noting also that Pathfinder also codified "your unarmed strike is your entire body." (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qd3) Not that you need the ruling anyway, because there are a ton of ways to get additional viable weapon options (both melee and ranged) too. Much simpler and more elegant than trying to throw your fists at things without dying from blood loss imo.

HouseRules

2018-12-03, 06:53 PM

Worth noting also that Pathfinder also codified "your unarmed strike is your entire body." (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qd3) Not that you need the ruling anyway, because there are a ton of ways to get additional viable weapon options (both melee and ranged) too. Much simpler and more elegant than trying to throw your fists at things without dying from blood loss imo.

Dwarven Monk: "Nobody throws a dwarf", goes and do a jumping headbutt, but tries to say that it is a self throw.

MeimuHakurei

2018-12-04, 05:58 AM

Guys, stop suggesting to throw monks or soulknifes at the monsters. We all know that throwing fighters is way more effective:

http://www.nuklearpower.com/comics/8-bit-theater/010406.jpg

ShurikVch

2018-12-04, 07:46 AM

That is how Kensai works, regardless of how enhancing US in other ways worksI meant that part:
A kensai who imbues a particular type of natural weapon must imbue all his natural weapons of that type (so a human kensai with two fists must imbue both fists).There are no such weapon - "Fist"; the weapon in question is called Unarmed Strike, and you're have just one of it (because, hey - where will you get the second one?)
Otherwise, DM may point to the existence of various "single finger strikes", and price it +100% (or even +200%, if toes are included too :smallbiggrin:)

Psyren

2018-12-04, 10:26 AM

I meant that part:There are no such weapon - "Fist"; the weapon in question is called Unarmed Strike, and you're have just one of it (because, hey - where will you get the second one?)
Otherwise, DM may point to the existence of various "single finger strikes", and price it +100% (or even +200%, if toes are included too :smallbiggrin:)

But... that line supports my interpretation perfectly - Kensai considers each fist a separate attack to be enhanced, irrespective of how other game elements treat US. Yeah it's incongruous with elements that abstract US more than that, but again, that ruling only applies to the Kensai, so if you don't like it you can simply not be a Kensai/Monk (or use houserules of course.)

And while nothing is stopping you from drilling it down to fingers or hairs or other ad absurda if you wanted to, I would imagine that "fist" is where they intend you to stop given that example is given twice.