When is the ideal time for a bard to take a 1-3 level dip out to multiclass?

[SleepIncarnate]

Alright guys, looking for some help/advice here for my bard. I've been looking at the full spectrum of 1-20 for my bard (and possibly beyond, our campaign is built for past level 20 play, and we likely won't even finish the first act until close to level 10), and I want to figure out how best to capitalize on what we have and my rolls. For reference, my party is all level 4, and we consist of:

Half-orc bear totem barbarian (primarily tank/melee damage, but also uses his rituals effectively to make him basically Aquaman, or as we affectionately call him, Aquaorc)
Mountain dwarf paladin (tank/backup heals, not sure on his oath, but I suspect devotion)
Wood elf monster slayer ranger (ranged damage, scout, will get ranger to 5 for extra attack, then starting at 6 MC into rogue and never look back)
Silver dragonborn divine soul sorcerer (mostly utility/backup heals atm, but trying to branch out more into blaster role)
Dispater variant tiefling bard (me, homebrew college found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?574408-(Homebrew)-Bard-s-College-of-Linguistics), as main healer and battlefield controller)

As we approached level 4, I was looking at the magic initiate feat for some extra cantrips, and looked for some advice there. Even posted a thread on it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?573166-Magic-Initiate-as-a-Bard), and the general consensus was to go wizard for find familiar. After we hit 4, I brought it up with my group, pointing out that for find familiar, the ritual caster feat would be better for me as the difference between my intelligence and charisma is too vast for any kind of wizard cantrips that require rolls to be of use. Basically, I'd be better getting the same cantrips from sorcerer (the only difference between sorcerer and wizard in cantrips is the lack of toll the dead for sorcerers). My group all agreed that there's plenty of damage among them, so I should go for ritual caster, and I did.

That said, as I'm sure others have seen me mention elsewhere, I think the bard level 20 capstone is more of a c*apstone, so I know I'll eventually wanna MC out into something else, for at most 3 levels. Probably only one level, but an argument could be made for more if I got something super great to counter the loss of a feat (and possibly the loss of the level 18 magical secrets). Having looked at things, I find the best bet for me is to either focus more on skills (and thus take a one level dip into something like rogue or knowledge cleric) or more on spells (and thus a 1-3 level dip in sorcerer or warlock). The question then becomes what to dip and when?

As it stands, I have 12 each in strength and intelligence, 13 each in wisdom and constitution, 14 in dexterity, and 20 in charisma. My skills are acrobatics, deception (expertise here), insight, performance, persuasion (expertise here), sleight of hand, and stealth. My tool proficiencies thieves tools, disguise kit, calligraphy tools, and my three instruments (drum, lute, flute/pipes). As such, I can MC into anything but barbarian, paladin, or wizard. Considering I'm a ranged caster (my current weapon of choice is a light crossbow in the off chance I get a turn to attack and not do some form of control), the loss of those first two is not a big deal.

So, what would you all pick in this situation? Skills or spells? Let me kinda look at the pros and cons of each of the four classes I can kinda see as being good.

Cleric (Knowledge)
Pros: Medium armor proficiency, shield proficiency, two more skill proficiencies that get automatic expertise (arcana for sure, plus one other knowledge skill, probably history), an extra 3 cantrips, continues spell caster progression
Cons: Wisdom is the casting stat, and the two bonus languages don't see much use since I can burn an inspiration to speak ALL languages, character is not terribly religious

Rogue
Pros: One extra skill proficiency (athletics, intimidation, investigation, and perception are the only ones on rogue list I don't have), expertise in any two skills I know, or one and thieves tools, with things like faerie fire, I could easily set up the sneak attack opportunities on my own
Cons: Sneak attack stays at just +1D6, thieves cant is again useless considering my language abilities, would overlap a great deal with our ranger/rogue on his roguishness, does not continue spell progression, already have proficiency in thieves tools from urchin background

Sorcerer
Pros: Doubles my number of cantrips (going from 4 to 8), continues caster progression for spell slots, continues with my single strongest ability (charisma), a large spell list surpassed only by wizard to pick from, provides some offensive cantrips for when, gets a subclass right at only a one level dip for added benefits
Cons: Needs multiple levels to get access to metamagic, thus removing the opportunity for a feat

Warlock (Celestial)
Pros: Better fit roleplaying wise to cleric (e.g. making a deal with a god rather than worshiping it), also makes use of charisma, great blaster potential with EB, bonus two cantrips from cleric list, invocations
Cons: Needs a minimum of two levels for invocations (thus removing a feat), spell lists are rather limited, third level pact boons are not as impressive for me courtesy of already having a familiar and ritual casting (though they do make it better), does not continue casting slot progression

I do know that I plan on getting at least three other feats (war caster, resilient constitution, and some half feat to even out my wisdom score), so losing the level 19 one is not horrible as I don't know what I would want from there, it does come up. Also, considering the wisdom issue and the other issues with warlock, I think rogue and sorcerer are the stronger two contenders here. The big issue becomes, when do I take that dip?

Level 5 is out, as third level spells are too game changing (especially hypnotic pattern), as well as getting font of inspiration. Level 6 is a maybe, as my homebrew college's version of magical secrets doesn't have to be picked right then, and could in fact be saved until level 17 to make up for the loss of the level 18 magical secrets if I take 3 levels in something else. Level 7 is also appealing as there's no special features at that level, just level 4 spells which is a rather small list for bards. And on the opposite extreme is waiting until after I have 17-19 levels in bard before dipping out. Considering I'm wanting to dip for extra utility, this seems less useful, as I'd lose out on the extra cantrips or extra expertise for a LONG time.

I guess the question becomes, in my situation, which one class would you dip, and when would you take that dip? And if dipping sorcerer, which origin would be best, and should it just be the one level dip, or a 2-3 level dip? If I went metamagic, I wouldn't be twinning spells, and instead would pick things like careful spell (drop that hypnotic pattern right in the middle of the fray where the barbarian and paladin are, but guarantee they don't get affected by it), quickened spell (be able to drop an aoe crowd control on a group of enemies and then still throw an offensive cantrip that round to help with combat), or subtle spell (ignore silence from enemy casters, or enhance a party member on the sly in social aspects). Subtle is honestly less appealing to me than the other two though because a.) my level 14 bard college ability already lets me skip past silence for a full minute at the cost of a bardic inspiration, and b.) my tiefling flair bit (horns, fangs, wings show when casting spells of 1st level or higher) makes it harder to be subtle with magic in an RP sense, though I DO have disguise self as a racial spell and can pop that on me to make me look like my non-casting self before dropping something like enhance ability on someone else subtly.

TL;DR I'm looking for suggestions on what would be good for a 1-3 level dip on my bard, and when would be the best times to take those dips.

[Trustypeaches]

Honestly there's not really ever a great point to multiclass out of bard. They are always on the cusp of another great feature. That said, make sure to at least wait until level 5 since that's when they have a major power spike.

The two multiclasses I'd consider are a 2 level dip into Warlock for blasting potential and a single level dip into Cleric for bulk, extra spells, and domain features. Bardlocks are pretty self explanatory; pew pew, eldritch blast. Clerics are more interesting discussion, since which Domain you pick depends on what role you want to play in the party.

I'd say the strongest Cleric Domains for the Bard to dip into are:

Life: Extra healing, good domain spells. What's not to like.
Order: Voice of Authority is amazing for a buff/heal oriented bard, as is access to Command (cast it as a second level spell to hit both an enemy and an ally to trigger Voice of Authority). This is especially great paired with a Paladin and your Ranger / Soon-to-be-Rogue. Plus you get a social skill proficiency for free!
Knowledge: You covered it already

Keep in mind in addition to those goodies a dip into cleric will give you at minimum 4 extra spells to your list. Make sure to grab Bless, Command, and Inflict Wounds (a nice damage spell, use when you have advantage). You can also grab spells like Detect Magic that are also on the Bard Spell list so you can use your Bard Spell choices for something else.

[SleepIncarnate]

I will point out that considering my dexterity already, studded leather gives me an AC of 14. So something like draconic sorcerer only grants an extra +1 to AC (or a +2 for no disadvantages with the medium armor of knowledge cleric), though things like life or order cleric with heavier armor do help. The downside is, well, my strength sucks, so the only heavy armor I could use without the movement penalty is ring mail, which is also AC 14.

Also, our campaign is very coastal, at least at the moment. Our DM has a map of the whole world, and we travel via ship to various places for our adventures. Right now, we're at one of the six major elemental temples of the world, the water temple. Unless I wanna be like old iron boots link, lighter armor may still be better (or the no armor benefits of draconic sorcerer, or water breathing from sea sorcerer, or whatever).

As for warlock, yeah, it's still not bad, but it's not great. I did talk to my DM about if I took both repelling blast and grasp of hadar for my invocations for EB if I went the lock route, and he did say that I could choose pull or push on each individual target one a single casting. Make for an interesting way to gather a bunch of minions closer together so the sorcerer or I could drop an AoE on them then. I still don't see myself as primarily the blaster type, which is why sorcerer is such an interesting option. I can get an offensive cantrip to use over vicious mockery when all I need to do is cause damage, but then I can still get another 2-3 utility ones to fill out the list of amazing cantrips the bard wants (message, mending, minor illusion, prestidigitation, friends, mage hand, etc.), while warlock gets fewer of those (no mending or message) and is very heavy on eldritch blast. Also, first level spell options for sorcerer vs warlock fit better, though going deeper in warlock does allow for the darkness/devil's sight combo as a defensive option.

EDIT: Added quote


Keep in mind in addition to those goodies a dip into cleric will give you at minimum 4 extra spells to your list. Make sure to grab Bless, Command, and Inflict Wounds (a nice damage spell, use when you have advantage). You can also grab spells like Detect Magic that are also on the Bard Spell list so you can use your Bard Spell choices for something else.

Yeah, ritual caster already lets me grab detect magic as a ritual. The spells I picked up at feat grab were identify (to free that up as a bard slot) and find familiar. I suspect that even with us being a relatively low magic setting (there are only 3 bags of holding in the entire world), a scroll of detect magic should be easy to find to scribe over. That said, not ruling out cleric, just would need to find some good ways to work around my relatively low wisdom.

[Nhorianscum]

1st level (swap your base chassis)
2nd level (best time to take a light dip into cleric)
12th level (casting your 6th level spell twice is not strictly worse than 6th +7th)
18th level (No value to bard past 17 at all)

[SleepIncarnate]

1st level (swap your base chassis)
2nd level (best time to take a light dip into cleric)
12th level (casting your 6th level spell twice is not strictly worse than 6th +7th)
18th level (No value to bard past 17 at all)

Well, in my case, the 1st and 2nd level options are off the table, as I'm already at level 4. So you think wait until 12th level to take a 1 level dip into cleric? Or rather, 12 levels in bard then at 13 take the 1 level dip? Going cleric or sorcerer would continue my spell slot progression, so I'd still have the 7th level slot, just not a 7th level spell to go in it, but I could always upcast. Which cleric domain would you recommend for my character, then?

[Trustypeaches]

Yeah, ritual caster already lets me grab detect magic as a ritual.You're aware that Bards already get Detect magic, right?

[SleepIncarnate]

You're aware that Bards already get Detect magic, right?

Yeah, it's one of my spells known until I can find it as a ritual. But the more spells I can put in my ritual book, the fewer of them I need taking up space in my limited spells known slots. It's not as bad as a sorcerer who only gets 15 spells known by level 20, but every spell I can get is handy. Like identify. Bards get that as a spell too (only class other than wizards to get it), but I don't think I'll ever need it in a form that's not a ritual, so I took it as one of my starter two from the feat to open up other options for me spells wise. Just like how, when I hit level 5, I'll be swapping out sleep for hypnotic pattern, all while picking up something else as my new spell for the level. If I can grab a spell scroll of detect magic by the time I get bard 6, I can swap out detect magic for something else, like enhance ability, dispel magic, or major image. I like my spells known to not have to be rituals if I can avoid it. Make the best use of my limited resources available.

EDIT: I'm also aware that bards are already ritual casters. But getting the feat basically lets me, over time, increase my number of spells available, because a lot of those spells that are shared with wizards but are rituals can be put in the book.

[Nhorianscum]

Well, in my case, the 1st and 2nd level options are off the table, as I'm already at level 4. So you think wait until 12th level to take a 1 level dip into cleric? Or rather, 12 levels in bard then at 13 take the 1 level dip? Going cleric or sorcerer would continue my spell slot progression, so I'd still have the 7th level slot, just not a 7th level spell to go in it, but I could always upcast. Which cleric domain would you recommend for my character, then?

1 cleric is so loaded it can be splashed pretty much anywhere in anything and do well. Take 5th level bard for short rest insp and red level spells and take 1 level for the gubs you want. (Just browse the level 1 loadouts and chose the most useful one for you) pick up channel divinity after 11/bard if you want it.

Sorc needs 3 levels to be worth it so unless your xl6 feature is terrible or you're fishing for con saves early, just wait and do 3 after 11

[Keravath]

If you take a 2 level dip into hexblade warlock you gain the following ..

Medium armor, shield, martial weapon proficiency and the shield spell ... your AC goes from 14 to 18 with the possibility of 23 if using a reaction to cast shield (could be one more AC if you wear half-plate and forego stealth). This is a huge upgrade in survivability if you end up in melee.

Eldritch+agonizing blast for those rounds when you are concentrating on a spell and there isn't much else to do ..

You also seem to focused on deception and disguise so the Mask of Many Faces invocation allowing for at will casting of disguise self might be very thematic. However, devils sight+darkness might be a viable alternative.

Ability to use charisma for your weapon attacks ... it doesn't apply to light crossbows ... but would apply to all one handed weapons and eldritch+agonizing blast is a much better option than light crossbow in the long run since it scales up with character level. If you really need to add damage, combine it with hex. Hex is also useful for making grapple checks much easier for your front line by using hex to give disadvantage on strength checks for the target.

Hexblades curse for a bit of extra damage against a boss. I find this the least useful feature in practice.

Hexblade might also fit in with the Tiefling background ... though fiend and celestial might fit based on your comments.

----------

I will note that dipping anything is absolutely not required :) ... there are a lot of folks who swear by a full bard build until the last level or two. In my case, (playing AL), I took lore bard 3/hexblade warlock 2 at level 5 and delayed 3rd level spells. Perhaps not ideal but worked ok.

In your case, I would consider taking your dip after level 6. Level 6 is the first round of magical secrets, counterspell is probably a must due to the bard being able to apply jack of all trades to the check ... it makes it more efficient for a bard than a sorcerer. Given your focus on healing, you might either grab a cleric spell ... or perhaps pick up fireball. In general, I think the divine soul sorcerer will probably make a better healer/blaster in the long run with the range of cleric spells they can choose from.

However, if the sorcerer wants to branch out into more of a blaster role then a 2 level dip into warlock also works well for them since a sorcerer can used quickened eldritch blast (once they have enough sorcery points) to really do quite a bit of damage in a turn. The sorcerer also benefits from the armor, shield and weapon proficiencies if they go hexblade warlock and get to use charisma as the attack stat if they wind up in melee or like to use booming blade/green flame blade cantrips in combat. Hexblades curse also increases the critical range which can work well with multiple eldritch blast attacks. Add in fireball and some of the traditional blasting spells and the sorcerer can be a good blaster and healer (depending on their dex, the armor proficiency from a hexblade may not be as critical so they could look at celestial warlock which might go well thematically with a divine soul sorcerer).

[SleepIncarnate]

Alright, before I can properly address all your points there Keravath, I’ll have to talk a bit about the lore of our campaign world and our characters (specifically my bard and our sorcerer), and that should help with understanding the situation.

First, the lore of our world. It’s actually a demiplane, called Dreymir, the world of dreams (an offshoot of the plane of dreams). That part is probably not known by the common residents of the world, but it’s important still to understand. What is known is that a long, long time ago (not in a galaxy far, far away), 11 beings came together to create the world (and thus, are known as the Creators). After some time, the leader of the Creators, Enjiel, ruled that for the Creators to visit other realms (such as the one they came from), they would have to do so in the same way as the mortals, by dying. So the Creators chose to die and continue on to other worlds, though they would one day return to Dreymir.

What is not common knowledge among the people of Dreymir is that there was actually a twelfth Creator, Daeya. At a point in time before the others shut off Dreymir from the other planes, she left to return home, wanting to see her family. When she came back, she found the world locked off to her.

That’s where our characters come in. Our sorcerer was initially a celestial warlock, but between our first and second sessions, both he and our DM agreed that divine soul sorcerer fits his concept better. The reason for this is because he is one of the heralds of the return of the Eleven Creators. Meanwhile, my character is from Sigil, the central city of the Planescape setting. When we did our session zero to discuss lore and character concepts, I asked my DM if that would be okay, as I always associate tieflings with Planescape. He mentioned how the world is mostly cut off, except from the plane of nightmares, by one of the creators, but that it didn’t take as well as he wanted. Basically, in my character’s backstory, Daeya orchestrated things to tunneljack my bard from Sigil into the world of Dreymir as a means of helping her get back in. Likewise, coming from such a high magic setting as Sigil and now living in such a low magic setting as Dreymir, my bard REALLY wants to get back home to Sigil (and then go be a planes walking adventurer from there).


If you take a 2 level dip into hexblade warlock you gain the following ..

Medium armor, shield, martial weapon proficiency and the shield spell ... your AC goes from 14 to 18 with the possibility of 23 if using a reaction to cast shield (could be one more AC if you wear half-plate and forego stealth). This is a huge upgrade in survivability if you end up in melee.

Eldritch+agonizing blast for those rounds when you are concentrating on a spell and there isn't much else to do ..

With my whole connection to Daeya, a warlock pact would certainly thematically make sense. We haven’t connected directly yet, but once it does come up, it would certainly be something like “I’ll give you power and help you leave this world if you help me return to it” kind of pact. That said, keep in mind that the sorcerer started as a celestial warlock before shifting over. Celestial makes a lot more sense with this. While I do love the idea of a hexblade, how would I tie it in with my pact?


You also seem to focused on deception and disguise so the Mask of Many Faces invocation allowing for at will casting of disguise self might be very thematic. However, devils sight+darkness might be a viable alternative.
Yeah, Dispater tieflings are all about deception and illusion, and I play that up a lot with my character. Her magic came form in more of a bardic route rather than a wizardous or sorcerous route because of her ties to manipulation, deception, and illusion.


Ability to use charisma for your weapon attacks ... it doesn't apply to light crossbows ... but would apply to all one handed weapons and eldritch+agonizing blast is a much better option than light crossbow in the long run since it scales up with character level. If you really need to add damage, combine it with hex. Hex is also useful for making grapple checks much easier for your front line by using hex to give disadvantage on strength checks for the target.
The problem with Hex is that is uses up concentration and only benefits me. We have enough damage dealers among the party that my focus is primarily on battlefield control. I have better uses of my concentration through faerie fire (and later hypnotic pattern).


Hexblades curse for a bit of extra damage against a boss. I find this the least useful feature in practice.
This is actually the better alternative to Hex for me as it doesn’t use concentration, and even when bosses come up, there will be hordes of minions. Our DM loves his hordes.


Hexblade might also fit in with the Tiefling background ... though fiend and celestial might fit based on your comments.

Both could fit. Celestial for Daeya, fiend for the means she used to hijack my bard. A magical lute that has a fiend either channeling through it or possesses it, and served as both the mentor for my bard as well as a sort of external id for her, helping keep her alive but also pushing her to lie, cheat, and steal. In fact, rather than being the stereotypical busker type of bard, my character was more of a street magician type, who entertained and picked pockets. She eventually fell in with a traveling show of performer thieves. So while I love hexblades, I honestly have no idea how to fit that patron type into the character’s story. Even sorcerer can be explained as Daeya unlocking hidden abilities within my character’s bloodline, possibly also as a divine soul, but maybe as something else (she has ties to the oceans, so something like storm sorcerer or the UA sea sorcerer would also be fitting).


I will note that dipping anything is absolutely not required :) ... there are a lot of folks who swear by a full bard build until the last level or two. In my case, (playing AL), I took lore bard 3/hexblade warlock 2 at level 5 and delayed 3rd level spells. Perhaps not ideal but worked ok.

In your case, I would consider taking your dip after level 6. Level 6 is the first round of magical secrets, counterspell is probably a must due to the bard being able to apply jack of all trades to the check ... it makes it more efficient for a bard than a sorcerer. Given your focus on healing, you might either grab a cleric spell ... or perhaps pick up fireball. In general, I think the divine soul sorcerer will probably make a better healer/blaster in the long run with the range of cleric spells they can choose from.

My home brew college is not quite a lore bard’s. Basically, after I get it, I turn my own body into a sort of limited spell book, and can inscribe spells I find on it and then cast them as if they were part of my spells known. Like a wizard, I have to find them written down somewhere, but it also means I could hold off until level 17 and find a scroll of Wish and inscribe it on my body.


However, if the sorcerer wants to branch out into more of a blaster role then a 2 level dip into warlock also works well for them since a sorcerer can used quickened eldritch blast (once they have enough sorcery points) to really do quite a bit of damage in a turn. The sorcerer also benefits from the armor, shield and weapon proficiencies if they go hexblade warlock and get to use charisma as the attack stat if they wind up in melee or like to use booming blade/green flame blade cantrips in combat. Hexblades curse also increases the critical range which can work well with multiple eldritch blast attacks. Add in fireball and some of the traditional blasting spells and the sorcerer can be a good blaster and healer (depending on their dex, the armor proficiency from a hexblade may not be as critical so they could look at celestial warlock which might go well thematically with a divine soul sorcerer).

The sorcerer player is used to playing support characters, and when I came to the party with the idea of magic initiate vs ritual caster for my level 4 feat, he straight up said that if I went with utility side of things, that would open him up to move more out of his comfort zone and get more into the blaster. That said, even as a blaster, his focus is on cold, thunder, and lightning damage. He’s picking up chromatic orb at level 4 as one of his spells (replacing detect magic as I take it instead of identify). In fact, he’s said that he wants to do that more, otherwise he may as well have picked a cleric for his character.

In fact, if you look at the traditional party as being the Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Cleric, my character is sorta the replacement for three of those roles. The barbarian is definitely the fighter replacement. The sorcerer, paladin, and I are all taking up some of the cleric’s traditional duties (though right now, the healing isn’t that necessary). The ranger covers the scouting side of rogue and the sorcerer the blaster side of wizard, but I’m the utility aspects of both rogue and wizard. As we get up in levels, the ranger will become a rogue, and after level 8 or so, will be fully online as a rogue. I’ll still always be the ritual/utility caster side of wizard, so blasting isn’t my top priority, but does come in handy. I’m also going to be the one to go to for the non-HP restore types of cleric heals (lesser/greater restoration, raise dead, etc.) as the sorcerer can only know so many spells and the paladin will never get above 5th level spells. Also, the sorcerer is taking spell sniper with eldritch blast as his 4th level spell. I suggested fire bolt since he won’t get invocations, but he still likes the multi-target hit from EB. Fire is more suited to my character anyways, and I could totally see an argument for the phoenix sorcerer UA origin and/or taking Flames of Phlegethos as my 5th feat.

So, if I were to add in hexblade (and that’s really the only warlock type that I think really does well for me to go to 3rd level warlock to take pact of the blade), how would I go about it?

[dragoeniex]

I agree with the previous comment there's no spread of levels where you won't feel like you're missing out on some bardic love. The level progression is really nice, with the last level or so being "eh" outside of getting another high level slot.

That said, I would (and have done) multiclassing after lv 10 if you're happy with what you're doing for now. Bards have this weird "I want everything now please" spike at 10: two more skills for expertise, inspiration die increases to d10, you get a new cantrip, and you hit your first official magical secrets (lore bard not withstanding)- learning two more spells from any list.

Even if the last part isn't as unique or exciting thanks to the homebrew build, I'd call that plenty punchy. A nice pause point for bard.

[Aaron Underhand]

I would agree 2nd level for a single level dip. I went wizard with my bard which gives me:

Cantrips
Shield, feather fall and any other spell from the wizard list but(often magic missile).
Ritual casting for first level spells
Familiar

This has been great in increasing flexibility, and releasing known spells for my bard at higher levels. However you have to live with one level delay for bard features.

In summary, for a one level dip I would say take as early as you can.

[SleepIncarnate]

Honestly there's not really ever a great point to multiclass out of bard. They are always on the cusp of another great feature. That said, make sure to at least wait until level 5 since that's when they have a major power spike.

The two multiclasses I'd consider are a 2 level dip into Warlock for blasting potential and a single level dip into Cleric for bulk, extra spells, and domain features. Bardlocks are pretty self explanatory; pew pew, eldritch blast. Clerics are more interesting discussion, since which Domain you pick depends on what role you want to play in the party.

I'd say the strongest Cleric Domains for the Bard to dip into are:

Life: Extra healing, good domain spells. What's not to like.
Order: Voice of Authority is amazing for a buff/heal oriented bard, as is access to Command (cast it as a second level spell to hit both an enemy and an ally to trigger Voice of Authority). This is especially great paired with a Paladin and your Ranger / Soon-to-be-Rogue. Plus you get a social skill proficiency for free!
Knowledge: You covered it already

Keep in mind in addition to those goodies a dip into cleric will give you at minimum 4 extra spells to your list. Make sure to grab Bless, Command, and Inflict Wounds (a nice damage spell, use when you have advantage). You can also grab spells like Detect Magic that are also on the Bard Spell list so you can use your Bard Spell choices for something else.

Just talked with my DM. Daeya would not grant order domain, but could grant either of the other two, plus either of the following. Let me know your thoughts on the pros and cons on each of them, in addition to whatever I cover below.


ArcanaProficiency in the best knowledge skill in the game (Arcana) especially for my build, plus an extra two cantrips from the wizard list above and beyond the three I pick up from the level dip in cleric. They count as cleric cantrips for me. On the plus side, after the half feat to even out my wisdom, this is better than a magic initiate feat in wizard for the cantrips, but... not much better. I'd be best taking cantrips like mending, message, or friends which don't require rolls.
NatureProficiency in heavy armor (not great for my character because of my low strength), but more importantly, a free cantrip from druid (thorn whip would be a fun one for battlefield control, or druidcraft to finish off the trifecta of the core three flair cantrips) and a free skill proficiency. The skills are not great ones, being animal handling, nature, and survival. The latter two are probably covered by our ranger/soon to be rogue, though animal handling might be interesting for my pet rat from urchin background. Of course, I also have a familiar, which is far superior to that.


Basically, of the four domains she covers, I think the Life or Knowledge ones are the ideal two, if I went with cleric. We also talked, and storm or divine soul sorcerer are both fitting, as is celestial warlock. We both agree hexblade would just not work with her. Rogue is still on the table, but still not the most appealing option because we're already going to have a rogue who will be online for all roguish stuff in just a couple more levels, around the same time I picked up my MC dip. So, 1 level cleric, 1 level sorcerer, or 2 levels warlock.

So, revised pros/cons list!


Cleric Pros:Three cantrips, plus some really great ones like guidance. Access to an entire spell list that I can prepare spells from each day. Continues spell slot progression. Cons:Wisdom as a casting modifier, compared to the more powerful charisma of the other two caster options. Also, only able to prepare level + wisdom number of spells per day, meaning two spells until I get the wisdom half feat, then becoming three. Some of the better first level spells (like bless) are also concentration spells, competing with my great crowd control spells.
Sorcerer (Divine Soul) Pros:Four cantrips. Access to the cleric AND sorcerer spell lists. Charisma as my casting stat. A bonus third spell known (based on alignment of Daeya, probably Cure Wounds, but possibly Protection from Good & Evil), plus two more. A 2d4 version of bardic inspiration that is self only (countering one of the weaknesses of BI if not going level 14 lore bard to get peerless skill) that can be used once per rest. Cons:Once the spells are picked, they're set in stone without extra levels in sorcerer. Even then, only able to swap out one spell per level.
Sorcerer (Storm Sorcery) Pros:Tempestuous Magic is REALLY useful for getting around the battlefield without being attacked. Four cantrips from a decent list, including many of the ones from bard list I would want above and beyond my 4 from that class). Cons: Same as Divine Soul. Also, not as many spells to pick from compared to DS due to lack of cleric list. Wind Speaker, while a great ability (effectively gaining 5 languages), is negated by my level 3 bardic college ability to speak and understand any language so long as I have a BI to spend.
Warlock (Celestial) Pros:Get to pick two cantrips from warlock list, plus get another two cantrips from the cleric list. Can heal others from a 1d6 per level + 1D6 per day pool of dice, effectively serving as two to four free uses of healing word (larger dice, but without the substantial +5 charisma bonus to the heal) without using up spell levels. Invocations at level 2. Could go pact of the tome at level 3 for ANOTHER 3 cantrips or pact of the chain to improve my familiar. Cons:Needs 2-3 levels to really come online, removing one feat at 19 (unless our campaign goes past level 20). The two bonus cantrips from cleric list are set in stone, and while sacred flame is a great save or suck damage cantrip for use on high AC enemies, light has limited uses. Does not progress spell slot progression like sorcerer and cleric do, instead having two separate 1st or 2nd level slots (depending on if I take 2 or 3 levels) that reset on a short rest. Spell list is not as great as the other choices. Almost forced to take EB as one of the two class cantrips, really only leaving a choice of one at the end. Pacts of the tome and chain are less powerful than they would be for someone who isn't already a ritual caster (but still more powerful than what I have).


So, they all have their pros and cons. I think for 1 level, sorcerer wins out over cleric on a spell casting aspect, while cleric wins out on what it gives extra. Warlock definitely requires 2-3 levels, but does gain some useful benefits there.

EDIT: Also, not sure if any of the warlock pacts are worth loss of magical secrets. Getting flaming sphere as a pact spell is great for 3 levels of warlock, but 3 cantrips from tome is not equal to two spells of any level from any list. Likewise, chain is a nice improvement to my familiar, not for the option to have it use my one action to attack, but for the invocation that increases the 100 foot restriction on telepathy/senses to anywhere on the same plane. Still not sure if it's worth trading out magical secrets. So seriously just 1 sorcerer, 1 cleric, 1 rogue, or 2 warlock...

Second Edit:

Just thought of a pair of combos that basically kick warlock to the curb and bring rogue back up as a contender. Theoretically could pull this off with a pair of single level dips.

The first one really shines around the cleric cantrips Word of Radiance. Normally a 5 foot aoe around you to deal radiant damage with a save or suck against constitution. Not great, but lets you distinguish targets so you don't git friends. One of my level 3 college aspects is the ability to extend the casting range of a spell by 30 feet so long as the target speaks a language. I can do this an amount of times per day equal to my charisma modifier (so 5 times). Most small minions speak something. My other level 3 ability lets me speak and understand an language for a number of hours equal to the roll on a BI die I roll for it. Suddenly at level 6 (the earliest this combo could come online by MC into cleric or DS sorcerer), every enemy within 35 feet of me has to pass a DC 12 (if cleric) or 16 (if sorcerer) constitution save or take 2d6 damage. I can do this five times a day to wipe out minions.

On the skill side, we combine proficiency and expertise in perception with the observant feat. This one can't come online until level 9 (8 bard for the feat plus 1 rogue). At that point, proficiency bonus is +4. That means my wisdom modifier of +2 gets added into double proficiency modifier for a +10 to any active perception roll. But add that in to the base 10 passive perception and the +5 observant bonus, and at level 9 alone, I'm spotting things at DC 25 without trying. And it ends up more obscene as I level. That alone puts rogue back on the table, allowing me to take insight and stealth with my remaining picks from bard expertise and thieves tools for the other rogue expertise. I'd be the ultimate dungeon delver, and able to take that very feat at 19 to save the party tons.

[SleepIncarnate]

We just got done with this week's session a few hours ago, and at the end, we hit level 5. During the course of the session, I picked up some +1 studded leather, bringing me up to a 13+dex AC (just 1 less than a breastplate, and equal to what I'd have with draconic sorcerer/mage armor. I've also looked at the cleric domains some more, and while I do agree that cure wounds and bless are nice from life, I can get cure wounds already from divine soul sorcerer, and it'd use my charisma modifier as the bonus at the end. Life cleric makes up that difference with the life bonus, but... It's not enough for me.

Likewise, I already have one of the domain spells for knowledge in my ritual book (identify), and the languages half of their bonus would be wasted.

As such, I think I'll dip one level into divine soul sorcerer at 6. I'll get cure wounds as a free spell, plus two others from either list. With the other two spells, I could pick up utility stuff (like feather fall and/or shield), or maybe a single offensive spell (like chromatic orb) to use for when I have nothing better to do than do damage. That said, I do know fire bolt will be one of my cantrips, the spell attack roll one, and I'd like to also get a save or suck one, such as sacred flame, toll the dead, or word of radiance. For the remaining two cantrips, maybe pick up guidance or spare the dying and then mending or friends.

Any good suggestions on spells to pick? Fire bolt and cure wounds are for sure picks, so that leaves two other first level spells and three cantrips from cleric and sorcerer lists.

I may also choose to not get a half feat in wisdom, instead taking infernal constitution (for extra resistances and constitution) and then use my last ASI to split the two points between constitution and wisdom. Might drop war caster too, as I'm not going gish with this, and can be a pure caster. With the bonus 2d4 per rest to a save and proficiency in constitution saving throws, I probably won't need the advantage on saving throws, and I won't be using the other two parts of war caster, so I could pick something else like inspiring leader with my remaining feat, or get a second level in sorcerer or a single level in rogue. With rogue, the only problem is, I don't know what I would pick my expertise in. I'm already going to have persuasion, deception, and insight from bard (plus one more, probably stealth). If I dip rogue, I could get... I dunno, perception and thieves tools? Having that many skills with expertise is awesome, but... not as necessary considering I have jack of all trades and already am proficient in nearly half of all skills.

[Aaron Underhand]

Firebolt is an excellent cantrip, as is sacred flame, giving you at least some at will effects. I also really rate acid splash as a psuedo aoe, and chill touch for its "no healing" rider. Guidance is also a must.

For spells I highly recommend shield and feather fall, they have both seen a lot of play. I wouldn't pick a damage spell at first level as you can never swap it out, and cantrips will likely outpace it. Personally I would forgo spare the dying and cure wounds, and grab healing word. You don't need it often, but bonus action at range pickup is a great insurance policy.

[SleepIncarnate]

Firebolt is an excellent cantrip, as is sacred flame, giving you at least some at will effects. I also really rate acid splash as a psuedo aoe, and chill touch for its "no healing" rider. Guidance is also a must.

Our full sorcerer (also a divine soul) has chill touch and toll the dead as his main single target cantrips, and I think he picked up Eldritch Blast with spell sniper for his AoE one.

That said, Word of Radiance works great as an AoE with my bard college, because I can extend the range out from 5 feet to 35 feet, targeting all enemies I can see in that range. I'd probably pick that over acid splash for a pure AoE rather than the pseudo of AS. That said, it only work on enemies I share a language with, so things that can't speak (such as most beasts, the lower intelligence undead, and oozes) don't quite work as well and leave me still stuck with the 5 foot range.


For spells I highly recommend shield and feather fall, they have both seen a lot of play. I wouldn't pick a damage spell at first level as you can never swap it out, and cantrips will likely outpace it. Personally I would forgo spare the dying and cure wounds, and grab healing word. You don't need it often, but bonus action at range pickup is a great insurance policy.

I already have healing word as one of my level 1 bard spells, and I'm not gonna look back on it. That said, as a divine soul sorcerer, the source of that divine favor is good aligned, so I would gain cure wounds as a bonus spell. That's not even one I get to choose. But it's not a bad one to have, as again, I can give it a 30 foot range with my bard college ability, or up to 100 foot range with my familiar.

As for spare the dying, yeah, I can definitely agree with that. Especially since I do have healing word and have had it since level one. It's not one of my preferred go to cantrips, but it and guidance are two that everyone swears by as the two to pick from cleric cantrips. Even guidance is less appealing as a bard. It never goes up from that 1d4, it requires concentration, and only lasts a minute. Unless the whole party is going to be making a lot of checks in a short period of time, I'd be better off giving them bardic inspiration for important checks.

[Aaron Underhand]

Interesting.

Note that guidance and bardic inspiration stack. That said I am lore bard and generally keep my BI for reactions.

Your decision on healing word, but for me I would use a sorcerer known spell, as I know I can't change those, whereas I can pick an interesting higher level spell from bard, or magical secrets.

[SleepIncarnate]

Interesting.

Note that guidance and bardic inspiration stack. That said I am lore bard and generally keep my BI for reactions.

Your decision on healing word, but for me I would use a sorcerer known spell, as I know I can't change those, whereas I can pick an interesting higher level spell from bard, or magical secrets.

Yeah, I'm a linguist bard. The unique feature of my BI is to be able to spend one and roll to speak, read, write, and understand ANY language for a number of HOURS equal to my roll. Basically, I'm not blowing through it at a terribly fast rate with something like cutting words, so it works out fine for me.

As for healing word from sorcerer, here's the thing. I don't get to pick it over cure wounds. That's a given spell (like a cleric's domain spells). That leaves me with the standard 2 spells known from sorcerer. If I pick healing word for one of them, that means I have to drop either feather fall or shield. Shield is basically my only reaction (as bards don't get a lot of those aside from cutting words), and feather fall will be super useful when we get to the wind temple (and possibly elsewhere). It's not the expecting to get thrown off of stuff utility of it, it's the having it available for us to jump off of stuff as a get away. Both great 1st level spells.