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Greywander
2018-11-26, 04:35 AM
I watched Treantmonk's video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk1Up4hXUko) earlier today on what spells you can cast with your hands full, and it got me thinking about spell components in general. I posted a comment on his video about how components feel like they don't have any rhyme or reason as to which spell uses which components, nor is it necessarily obvious on what a component means or what effect it has in-game. So what I thought was that I'd make components simpler and have a clear purpose and effect on the game.

Before I go over the three types of components, let's go quickly talk about the three kinds of spellcasters, each of which has a different preference when it comes to components:

Stealth Caster - These shy nerds don't like drawing attention to themselves. They have no friends, mostly because nobody knows they exist.

Social Casters - These nerds pretend not to be nerds so they can make friends. When this inevitably fails, they use their voodoo magicks to mind control people without anyone noticing.

Battle Casters - These are actually jocks pretending to be nerds (or nerds pretending to be jocks, idc). They think it's acceptable to cast spells while your hands are full of pointy sticks. Just more evidence that every day we stray further from God's light. (Ironically for that last sentence, clerics and paladins are the foremost examples of battle casters.)

Each component acts as a foil to one of the above types of casters, as well as having a specific way to "disarm" the caster and prevent them from using spells with those components. And with that, let's get into the different components.

Verbal
You vocalize. Loudly. Breaks stealth and draws attention toward you. Guards within a certain range (120 feet? 300 feet?) may be inclined to investigate, even if they don't have direct line of sight on you. The vocalizations are themselves innocuous, and people will react to them as if you were just talking really loud.

Verbal components can be prevented by silencing or gagging the caster (or even just covering their mouth), or by otherwise preventing speech. Paralysis prevents all components.

Verbal casting is suitable for social and battle casters. It is not suitable for stealth casters.

Spells that should use verbal components:

Spells that aren't balanced for casting while remaining hidden
Spells that should be uncastable while unable to speak
Abjuration, Enchantment, and Evocation spells?

Alternatives to verbal components:
Maybe you have a character that is mute, or otherwise incapable of normal speech (perhaps they are an alien race that communicates through telepathy). It is possible to replace verbal components with something else that fills the same role. It wouldn't even have to be sound-based, necessarily; it could be a bright flash of light or something. For balance reasons, any substitute for verbal components should have the following traits:

Necessarily breaks stealth
Attracts the attention of nearby people, especially guards
Is blocked by the Silence spell and paralysis condition
Can be prevented as easily and as obviously as covering the caster's mouth

Somatic
You flail around like a madman, working some obviously spooky voodoo. This is the D&D equivalent of pulling out a gun and waving it around. Doing this in public will, at best, get you a stern talk from a guard, and at worst, you'll weigh as much as a duck (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g).

Note: Under this modified version of components, somatic components do not require a free hand. That's not their purpose, see Material components for that.

Somatic components can be prevented by restraining the caster (or just slapping manacles on them). Paralysis prevents all components.

Somatic casting is suitable for stealth and battle casters. It is not suitable for social casters.

Spells that should use somatic components:

Spells that aren't balanced for casting openly in public or in front of the intended target
Spells that should be uncastable while handcuffed
Offensive spells
Conjuration, Evocation, Necromancy spells?

Alternatives to somatic components:
Maybe a character... doesn't have arms? I don't know. This one is pretty straightforward. A substitute for somatic components should have the following traits:

Generally incites an immediate negative reaction (unless in a situation where magic is expected and acceptable): friendly characters will become concerned, neutral characters will become suspicious, and hostile characters will become aggressive
Is vaguely threatening and causes those not familiar with magic to feel like they are in danger
Repeated casting in public is a good way to get arrested

A note on spellcasting in public:
Imagine for a moment that your adventuring party is wandering through the crowded streets, when suddenly a man in a dark robe jumps up onto a crate and begins incanting and waving his arms around while holding a basalisk eye and pouring out a vial of blood. Clearly this is just a street performer doing magic tricks for the kids, right?

Magic is both strange and dangerous, and the average person has even more reason to be cautious and fearful of magic than a party of adventurers. If the setting is low magic, most people will be ignorant of magic, and associate it with witches and boogiemen that carry off infants and put curses on honest folk. They will rightfully view anyone openly casting spells as a potential monster out to eat their children or something. A spellcaster in this setting would need to hide their magic from the public eye, and to build trust with a person before casting a spell in front of them.

In a high magic setting, things are a little better, but not much. The illiterate aren't much different from those in a low magic setting. The average person, however, has a better understanding of magic, and therefore knows how dangerous it can be. Fire bolt is basically a crossbow that sets things on fire, and it can't be taken away. Any spellcaster will always be treated as if they are carrying a weapon, and anyone openly casting a spell will be seen similarly to someone waving around a gun. Sure, maybe the gun shoots flower petals, maybe it's a fake nerf gun, do you think the guards are going to wait to find out? Given how dangerous magic can be, it wouldn't be unusual for magic to be illegal, or require a license to practice in public. Or maybe it's illegal to even be a spellcaster if you aren't part of the ruling class.

Whatever the case, given the amount of harm magic can cause, it's only natural that openly casting a spell in public would generate a negative reaction.

As far as non-somatic components, generally only another spellcaster or a person with a high Arcana or Religion skill would be able to recognize verbal or material components as being related to spellcasting. Even then, it might take them a few spells before they pick up on what's happening right in front of them. This is why verbal and material components are deemed suitable for social casters.

Material
You use a free hand, either to handle the materials or to use your spell focus. That's basically it; you need either an empty hand or a spell focus. If holding a spell focus, you can still use components that are consumed or cost gold, as the important thing here is to occupy a hand.

Technically, being restrained or handcuffed doesn't prevent the use of material components. If you have your wand in your hand, or can reach your component pouch, you're still free to cast those spells. If, however, you're restrained to the point that your hand can't be considered "free" (e.g. you can't grapple, draw a weapon, or retrieve an item), then you also wouldn't be able to use material components (assuming your wand is no longer in your hand). The obvious way to prevent material components from being used is to take away the materials or spell focus. And, of course, paralyzation.

Material casting is suitable for stealth and social casters. It is not suitable for battle casters.

Spells that should use material components:

Spells that aren't balanced for casting while wielding weapons and/or a shield
Spells that should require an empty hand (or spell focus)
Spells that should be uncastable if the item is taken away
Divination, Illusion, Transmutation spells?

Alternatives to material components:
Even more straightforward than somatic casting. An "alternative" already exists in the form of spell foci, and it meets the requirements given below:

Requires a free hand
Relies on an item that can be taken away

TL;DR
Verbal components break stealth and attract guards, can be prevented by silencing/gagging
Somatic components incite a negative reaction from people, can be prevented by restraining/handcuffing
Material components require an empty hand, can be prevented by taking away the item

Now, I don't think this would work to slap it onto the existing magic system as-is. Each spell would need to be re-evaluated to see which components it should use. I recognize that this is likely more work than anyone is willing to do, and mostly I just wanted to present this as a more logical and intuitive way that spell components could work. And who knows, maybe I'll actually go through the spells and redo their components at some point.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on spell components? Can you think of a simpler and more intuitive or elegant way to handle them? Or to make them interesting, making spell choices more important based on the components required?

Unoriginal
2018-11-26, 06:29 AM
Spell components do not need simplification or clarification.

If they make it harder to use a spell, it's a feature, not a bug. Magic needs limits, and components are one of them.

It's not like focuses and component pouches aren't here to handwave 90% of the concerns.

terodil
2018-11-26, 06:38 AM
I don't know, Unoriginal, while I agree with your point on magic needing limits (a large helping of which already exists in the form of spell slots or equivalent and level restrictions, though), from practice I can say that it's an absolute mess to explain to somebody who plays D&D for the first time. As if tossing a list of 300+ spells at them and telling them 'go pick according to your spell list' wasn't challenge enough for a first-time D&D player that wanted to play a caster. I really wouldn't be averse to some simplification from that vantage point.

Which, however, is also the problem with the OP: I don't really see how this simplifies things. The essence of what components mean has not been changed, it's basically a rewording/summary of what's already in the books, and I unfortunately can't see how any of it makes things easier. Maybe we're just missing the logically subsequent step: Could you give us an example of just a handful of spells and how you would rework them, Greywander?

Man_Over_Game
2018-11-26, 12:37 PM
Spell components do not need simplification or clarification.

If they make it harder to use a spell, it's a feature, not a bug. Magic needs limits, and components are one of them.

It's not like focuses and component pouches aren't here to handwave 90% of the concerns.

I think this works a lot better than many parties just ignoring it. Having a consistent, simplified rule is much better than ignoring an existing one. I get that it does move away from the traditional stereotypes of DnD, and it's heavily dumbed down, but why is that a bad thing?

At the moment, the only people tracking components are players, and they're not consistent about it. DMs already have too much work to do to track what components the Paladin decided were relevant that day, so I think this system is a much better way of going about it.

One thing that'd be a good compromise is a system to check off what spells you have the Materials for and which ones you don't. That way, if your focus is ever lost, players and DMs know exactly what spells they should be able to cast at all times. Could be as simple as the Proficiency system, just checking off a bullet next to each spell.

Greywander
2018-11-26, 06:23 PM
Spell components do not need simplification or clarification.

If they make it harder to use a spell, it's a feature, not a bug. Magic needs limits, and components are one of them.
I tend to be verbose, so I can forgive you if you TL;DRed. However, I can tell you didn't read my post, or else you would have seen that most of the clarifications involve placing more restrictions on casters. But these restrictions are clearly defined and not left open to player interpretation, DM fiat, or handwaving.


It's not like focuses and component pouches aren't here to handwave 90% of the concerns.
These only affect material components, which is an excellent demonstration that 99% of the time verbal components are irrelevant and somatic components are interchangeable with material components. As such, components as they currently exist boil down to a binary "needs a free hand" vs. "doesn't need a free hand", but at the same time it happens to be overly complex in deciding which of these it is, and if a spell focus counts as a "free hand" or not.


I don't really see how this simplifies things. The essence of what components mean has not been changed, it's basically a rewording/summary of what's already in the books, and I unfortunately can't see how any of it makes things easier.
Here's how things work RAW:
Verbal - Requires you to be able to speak. And... that's it. Some infer that verbal components break stealth, but it doesn't actually say anything to that effect.
Somatic - Requires a free hand. And... that's it. This wouldn't be too bad except for...
Material - Also requires a free hand, but this can be the same hand you use for somatic components, unless you're wielding a spell focus, in which case you can use the spell focus for both somatic and material components, except for spells that only require somatic and not material components, and if a spell requires material components that cost gold or are consumed then you still need a free hand even if you're using a spell focus. What a mess.

So here's the problem: Verbal components are basically ignored until you're put in a situation where you can't speak (which will rarely come up). Somatic and material components are almost interchangeable, but get really weird when you have a spell with one but not the other (for example, you can't use a spell focus for somatic-only spells). Material components get even more convoluted when you consider that a spell focus doesn't substitute materials that either cost gold or are consumed, so you still need to have an empty hand (in fact, I don't know of anyone who actually runs the rules that way, but technically that's RAW).

So, perhaps the only one I've really simplified was the material components. What I have done was to decouple somatic and material components so that they no longer have weird interactions with one another, and flesh out verbal and somatic components so that they have a clearer, and more interesting, effect on the game. If you ever plan to use stealth, suddenly verbal components matter, a lot more than they use to. If you want to cast spells in public, it's no longer an all-or-nothing issue entirely dependent on DM fiat. It's also much easier to figure out which spells you can cast while your hands are full.

JackPhoenix
2018-11-26, 06:54 PM
So, perhaps the only one I've really simplified was the material components. What I have done was to decouple somatic and material components so that they no longer have weird interactions with one another, and flesh out verbal and somatic components so that they have a clearer, and more interesting, effect on the game. If you ever plan to use stealth, suddenly verbal components matter, a lot more than they use to.

So, basically, you've done nothing except repeating what's already in the book. You already had to talk for verbal components, you already had to wave your hand around for somatic components, and you've already had to handle the material component. Being heard, wawing your hands around being inappropriate in a society or having the components stolen is already a concern, and it's situational.

Not to mention that mumbling magical words is just as inappropriate as flailing your arms around during social interactions.

Greywander
2018-11-27, 09:37 PM
So, basically, you've done nothing except repeating what's already in the book.
I might be repeating your unspoken houserules, which might be inferred from the book, but it is not itself in the book.


You already had to talk for verbal components, you already had to wave your hand around for somatic components, and you've already had to handle the material component.
Sure. This is in the book.


Being heard, wawing your hands around being inappropriate in a society or having the components stolen is already a concern, and it's situational.
By "situational", you mean the books say absolutely nothing about it (except the material part), and it's entirely the realm of DM fiat. It's not necessarily a bad thing for it to lean on a DM ruling, but it's a problem because (a) the books don't even raise the possibility that spellcasting might affect such things, so it's up to the DM to think of it on their own (actually, I think the DMG may mention something about magic being illegal in the worldbuilding section), and (b) the players likewise don't expect these things to matter, and could therefore feel like the DM is being unfair if they invoke these additional restrictions that aren't strictly in the rules.

What I've done then is say that, yes, casting a spell with verbal components will definitely break stealth, always, though you might have an opportunity to hide again before someone finds you, and that casting a spell with somatic components in public is very likely to incite a negative reaction. This way, players will expect it, and DMs can choose to waive it if they feel it is appropriate. It's no longer reliant on the DM to invoke it in the first place, nor will the player be surprised by it.

And again, I've also simplified the mind-boggling interactions between somatic and material components. Now that I think about it, you actually can't ever use a spell focus for somatic components, you always need a free hand; you're allowed to use the same free hand that you used for somatic components for the material components, but the reverse is not true (i.e. using a spell focus only waives the requirement for material components, and even then with exceptions; it never qualifies as a "free hand", either for somatic components or for those exceptions). I don't think I've ever seen anyone rule it this way, but that's what the book actually says. I vastly simplified this by saying, "A spell focus counts as a free hand for the purpose of spellcasting."


Not to mention that mumbling magical words is just as inappropriate as flailing your arms around during social interactions.
While logically you'd think this to be true, I decided it was more important to compartmentalize spell components and give each one a specific purpose. If I want a spell that breaks stealth, I give it verbal components. If I want a spell that isn't appropriate to cast in public, I give it somatic components. If I want a spell that both breaks stealth and isn't appropriate to cast in public, I give it both. Besides, a lot of Enchantment spells, which are supposed to be used in public, use verbal components.

Although, I am considering a slight tweak where I add an "overt" component (or an "overt" modifier to the existing components) that makes that spell inappropriate to cast in public, and somatic components would then revert to simply needing a free hand, and materials would just require materials without needing a free hand. This way, you could have overt verbal components where the incantation itself is what is inappropriate, or overt material components, where you pull out some obviously spooky materials (like pouring out a vial of blood).