+10 to hit on CR 2?

[hymer]

Swarms work well as low CR creatures that still has at least a bit of effect against mid-level PCs. Their damage is low, but it's automatic. And there's often some disease or poison as well. So they can nibble at the edges of the party's resources, so there can be a sense of accomplishment in mowing them down.

But you can only use so many swarms before it becomes conspicuous (and boring). Can anyone suggest a CR 2(ish) stat block, with a to hit bonus of +10(ish)? Off the cuff I think an archer would get close with +2 from two feats, a mwk bow, +2 from BAB, and +3 or so from dex. Any thoughts on getting that?

If there are specific monsters with high CR to attack bonus ratios, I'd love to hear about it.

[OgresAreCute]

1st level Lolth-touched Orc Barbarian with elite array and a 15 in Strength has 15 + 6 + 4 + 4 (Rage) = 31 Strength at CR 2. Add in +1 BAB and a masterwork greataxe and they're swinging at +12. Could also have the low-level mooks with a wizard or other buff-caster with things like mass Bull's strength and Haste which give bonuses to hit.

If you've got a lot of mooks, it'll also be easier for them to flank (+2 to hit). They could charge instead, which also gives +2 to hit. If the Orc above took weapon focus as his first level feat he would have +15 to hit on a charge, dealing 1d12+15 damage on a hit.

[Max Caysey]

Swarms work well as low CR creatures that still has at least a bit of effect against mid-level PCs. Their damage is low, but it's automatic. And there's often some disease or poison as well. So they can nibble at the edges of the party's resources, so there can be a sense of accomplishment in mowing them down.

But you can only use so many swarms before it becomes conspicuous (and boring). Can anyone suggest a CR 2(ish) stat block, with a to hit bonus of +10(ish)? Off the cuff I think an archer would get close with +2 from two feats, a mwk bow, +2 from BAB, and +3 or so from dex. Any thoughts on getting that?

If there are specific monsters with high CR to attack bonus ratios, I'd love to hear about it.


Hmm... If you are only looking for monsters, check out the Giant Cockroaches on page 34 in the Sinister Spire adventure supplement. If you want high attack bonus/ CR, then a halfling fighter with a masterwork weapon and the right feats would get you +10 at level 2.

[noce]

Dire badgers and wolverines have both +6/+6/+1 routine while raging, which is good.

[Crake]

1st level Lolth-touched Orc Barbarian with elite array and a 15 in Strength has 15 + 6 + 4 + 4 (Rage) = 31 Strength at CR 2. Add in +1 BAB and a masterwork greataxe and they're swinging at +12. Could also have the low-level mooks with a wizard or other buff-caster with things like mass Bull's strength and Haste which give bonuses to hit.

If you've got a lot of mooks, it'll also be easier for them to flank (+2 to hit). They could charge instead, which also gives +2 to hit. If the Orc above took weapon focus as his first level feat he would have +15 to hit on a charge, dealing 1d12+15 damage on a hit.

15+6+4+4 = 29, not 31, so your math is off by 1 point.

Keep in mind though, that while this "cr2" challenge has high hit, it ALSO hits like a truck, which i don't believe is what OP is going for.

[XionUnborn01]

16+6+4+4 = 29, not 31, so your math is off by 1 point.

Keep in mind though, that while this "cr2" challenge has high hit, it ALSO hits like a truck, which i don't believe is what OP is going for.

16+6+4+4=30 my dudes.

[Eldan]

6 HD zombies are only CR 2. While those quoted in the SRD don't get a +10 to hit, an ogre zombie at least gets +9 at CR 3 and deals respectable damage. Of course, it's literally as dumb as a brick.

If you just want more or less automatic damage, what about breath weapons? Wyrmligns and Mephits are right in that area. As are Ankhegs and Hellhounds.

Cockatrices won't have a chance to actually petrify anyone of higher level, but their bite hits pretty well too, at +9 for CR 3

Imps and Quasits hit pretty well, too, plus they have a host of annoying abilities like invisibility.

And finally, for sheer power: Dire Wolf, CR 3, +11 to hit, 1d8+10 damage.

[OgresAreCute]

16+6+4+4=30 my dudes.

That's just a typo, it starts at 15 so 29 is correct and I was wrong.


16+6+4+4 = 29, not 31, so your math is off by 1 point.

Keep in mind though, that while this "cr2" challenge has high hit, it ALSO hits like a truck, which i don't believe is what OP is going for.

Apparently I should start counting on my fingers so I don't mess up basic arithmetic. It still makes the benchmark at least. OP didn't specify exactly what level the party is, but if we take "mid-level" to mean ~8, then I don't think 1d12+13 is too much. Less than that and it will barely even tickle. The Orcs will also only have 17 hit points, so wiping them all out with a simple fireball or reach weapon + combat reflexes should be trivial. This way, they'll be a threat that's easy to deal with (especially if you win initiative) but can't be ignored by virtue of their moderate damage output.

[Fizban]

Hmm... If you are only looking for monsters, check out the Giant Cockroaches on page 34 in the Sinister Spire adventure supplement.
Also in Underdark. And also have a nauseating stench aura. The "player [characters] constantly dying" thread made mention of them (from Sinister Spire again), and I didn't check their CR, but holy moly. That's a nearly Dire Wolf tier bite combined with a massive save or lose aura, and far more AC, those are not CR 2 at all. CR 3 at best, and only because the aura can only hit you once regardless of save.

[flappeercraft]

If I'm not mistaken a level 2 character would br CR 2 so a Orc Barbarian 2 would accomplish that with PB. Lets say Pb 18 on strength with +4 Racial gets you 22 strength. or +6. Add 2 BAB, +1 MWK Weapon, +1 Weapon Focus and you get +10. +12 while raging.

[Max Caysey]

Also in Underdark. And also have a nauseating stench aura. The "player [characters] constantly dying" thread made mention of them (from Sinister Spire again), and I didn't check their CR, but holy moly. That's a nearly Dire Wolf tier bite combined with a massive save or lose aura, and far more AC, those are not CR 2 at all. CR 3 at best, and only because the aura can only hit you once regardless of save.

Yep... They are really strong for their CR, but in all fairness they are CR 3 and not 2, but still very strong for a CR 3! :smallbiggrin:

[Bucky]

Lantern Archons only hit at +2, but that's on a touch attack.
Any ranged attack out of darkness against an illuminated PC without darkvision ignores Dex/Dodge AC. If you want variety, add a lighting-based encounter to your rotation.
Reflex-half spells and abilities do a bit of damage regardless of AC.

[ShurikVch]

Nameless Scorned Proto-Creature Prodigy(Str) Juvenile Steel Dragon

CR = 5 (base) -2 (Proto-Creature) -1 (Nameless) +0 (Prodigy) +0 (Scorned) = 2

TO HIT BAB 13
Str bonus +10: 17 (base) +4 (Proto-Creature) +2 (Prodigy) +2 (Scorned) +4 (Belt of Giant Strength) +1 (Faustian pact) = 30
Weapon Focus +1
Greater Magic Fang +1Total: 25

[Max Caysey]

Nameless Scorned Proto-Creature Prodigy(Str) Juvenile Steel Dragon

CR = 5 (base) -2 (Proto-Creature) -1 (Nameless) +0 (Prodigy) +0 (Scorned) = 2

TO HIT BAB 13
Str bonus +10: 17 (base) +4 (Proto-Creature) +2 (Prodigy) +2 (Scorned) +4 (Belt of Giant Strength) +1 (Faustian pact) = 30
Weapon Focus +1
Greater Magic Fang +1Total: 25

You don't think a +4 item is a bit much at CR 2? Is that conforming to WBL? I mean its a 8000 gp item...

[ShurikVch]

Is that conforming to WBL? I mean its a 8000 gp item...Actually - yes, I'm checked it: Juvenile Steel Dragon is a 13 HD creature; according to Table 4–23: NPC Gear Value, it's 35000 gp

Heck, actually, it may be bumped up to 15 HD without changing the CR, which would give +2 more BAB - i. e. the same to-hit benefit as from the Belt

[Eldariel]

Say, Elite Array Hobgoblin [Cloistered] Cleric 2 with Law Devotion and Knowledge Devotion and Elite Array is looking at (at least) +3 Str, +3 Law Devotion, +1 BAB, +1 Knowledge Devotion before any buffs. Add Mw. weapon for +9, and e.g. War domain (Weapon Focus) for +10. Or just cast whatever. Of course, you could also persistomancy your way to the same result easily enough and varying the race works quite well as well (Orc obviously doesn't even need a Mw. weapon though a Lawful Orc is a bit weird, and any small race with Dex-bonus just straight-up autohits the numbers on ranged weapons too).


Actually - yes, I'm checked it: Juvenile Steel Dragon is a 13 HD creature; according to Table 4–23: NPC Gear Value, it's 35000 gp

Heck, actually, it may be bumped up to 15 HD without changing the CR, which would give +2 more BAB - i. e. the same to-hit benefit as from the Belt

That's a monster though so it should use treasure, not NPC WBL, no? Not that it matters much.

[Maat Mons]

Race: Muckdweller
Class: Fighter 2
Feats: Crossbow Sniper, Weapon Finesse (bonus), Weapon Focus (light crossbow), one more feat
Ability Scores: elite array; put the 15 in dex; racial +6 to dex; whatever for the other abilities

Attack Bonus +2 (base) +5 (dex) +1 (weapon focus) +2 (tiny size) = +10
Damage: 1d4 (tiny light crossbow) +2 (half dex bonus)

Okay, their damage is pretty piddly. But they have an at-will ability that can blind a target for 1 round. They have darkvision. They have a swim speed. And there's no particular reason their crossbow bolts can't be poisoned.

I'm sure you can make them severely annoying with the right encounter setup.

[Maat Mons]

Okay, wait. In spite of being a +0 LA race, Muckdwellers don't say "by character class" in their advancement section.

Let me revise this. They can get up to 2 monstrous humanoid hit dice without increasing in size. Those are full base attack bonus HD, and they have simple weapon proficiency built in. So I can switch out the fighter levels without changing the numbers if I ditch two feats.

Well, goodbye Crossbow Sniper and spare feat. It was nice knowing you.

That leaves us with a creature that started as CR 1/4, bumped up to the elite array, and advanced by 2 monstrous humanoid hit dice. That's, what, CR 1/2? One bump for elite array brings 1/4 to 1/3? Another bump from hit dice brings it from 1/3 to 1/2?

[hymer]

Thanks everyone for your comments, from the interesting to the useful! :smallsmile:

[Blackhawk748]

IIRC a Orc with 4 levels of Warrior is CR2. Give him 20 Str and Weapon Focus and you have +10 to hit and 1d12+7 for the Greataxe or 1d8+5 if you wanna go with a one hander and a shield. The damage is fine for CR2 and it's consistent.