Lottery In D&D 3.5

[Bartmanhomer]

I know that there's lottery in D&D 3.5. But if there's no lottery in D&D 3.5 it should be included in the game. When an adventurer tried to play the lottery. He or she pick a few numbers and get a ticket. There the announcer said the number of the lottery. If the person get the right number he or she win gold pieces (1,000,000+ GP) or even a prize. So what do you think of my lottery idea?

[Crake]

I know that there's lottery in D&D 3.5. But if there's no lottery in D&D 3.5 it should be included in the game. When an adventurer tried to play the lottery. He or she pick a few numbers and get a ticket. There the announcer said the number of the lottery. If the person get the right number he or she win gold pieces (1,000,000+ GP) or even a prize. So what do you think of my lottery idea?

No lottery exists because divination magic exists.

[King of Nowhere]

what would be the point? it's mostly a waste of money. Except if the pc wins (possibly by using divination or cheating with magic, but this begs the question, is there nobody else with magic in the whole setting?), in that case they suddenly have a huge level inappropriate loot.
And there's no accomplishment whatsoever.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If the one running the device spitting out the numbered balls has mind blank, there're very few effects that could bypass it. Hypercognition might be able to guess the numbers if you manifest it as he's operating it, but by then it would be too late to purchase a ticket.

I'm sure a god(dess) of luck or fate might be able to divine (geddit?) the numbers, but I don't think a mortal spellcaster could pull those numbers out of him (or her).

But the chances of getting more than one or two numbers gets more and more astronomical pretty quickly (especially if it's set up like it is on real life lotteries), so your players will probably never win, meaning this would be pure fluff, at best. That's doable IRL because we have billions of people on the planet, with hundreds of millions available to buy tickets. And since most fantasy worlds have much lower populations in centers of civilization where things like this would take place, the numbers would also have to be much smaller for anyone to have a chance at actually winning. Perhaps four numbers (1-20, with a jackpot ticket being 1/160,000 odds), and roll to determine them? That's still really long odds, but not nearly as bad as the real life Powerball or Mega Millions.

[Torpin]

If the one running the device spitting out the numbered balls has mind blank, there're very few effects that could bypass it. Hypercognition might be able to guess the numbers if you manifest it as he's operating it, but by then it would be too late to purchase a ticket.

I'm sure a god(dess) of luck or fate might be able to divine (geddit?) the numbers, but I don't think a mortal spellcaster could pull those numbers out of him (or her).

But the chances of getting more than one or two numbers gets more and more astronomical pretty quickly (especially if it's set up like it is on real life lotteries), so your players will probably never win, meaning this would be pure fluff, at best. That's doable IRL because we have billions of people on the planet, with hundreds of millions available to buy tickets. And since most fantasy worlds have much lower populations in centers of civilization where things like this would take place, the numbers would also have to be much smaller for anyone to have a chance at actually winning. Perhaps four numbers (1-20, with a jackpot ticket being 1/160,000 odds), and roll to determine them? That's still really long odds, but not nearly as bad as the real life Powerball or Mega Millions.

you could also use limited wish 6 times to determine the balls pulled out

[Buufreak]

So what do you think of my lottery idea?

It seems half assed, underdeveloped, and in general a bad idea. Mostly for reasons already listed above.

[Bartmanhomer]

I thought it was a good idea at first but now everyone say it's a bad idea I should have thought this through even further. :frown:

[Quertus]

So, it depends.

It's a great way to telegraph that someone in your setting has developed a way to hide from Divinations.

It's a great way to communicate that you aren't playing by strict WBL guidelines.

It's great if you're trying to set a tone of "PCs rule, NPCs drool". Actually, you could also use it to set the tone, "NPCs rule, PCs drool".

It's great if you're trying to establish Luck as one of the major factors in the world.

Heck, it'd be a great hint at a secret alliance between the god(esse)s of Luck and Secrets.

Losing the lottery could be a great incentive for the PCs to do what's right, and start murdering the gods.

So, yeah, there's lots of reasons to do this. Just make sure that you've got your world-building set, and that you're doing it for a purpose. Because, in a generic D&D world, this would seem to be a bad plan.

[heavyfuel]

All excellent points by Quertus and I want to add the following:

- You could use to telegraph the idea that magic is extremely rare, and that includes divination magic. Maybe the reason that mysterious fellow who's won the lottery a couple of times in every capital isn't lucky, but magical.

[Anymage]

#1: When I think fantasy lotteries, I think this (https://sites.middlebury.edu/individualandthesociety/files/2010/09/jackson_lottery.pdf) more than powerball. The Shirley Jackson version is a lot more interesting than powerball.

#2: Everything other people said about divinations. You'd either need a population center filled with sufficiently advanced magic (indistinguishable from technology), or else spells break the system even more than they do now.

#3: Repeating bits about population mechanics. In a video game, it's trivial to add a number to a player's gold piece total. (It contributes to inflation in MMO style games, but that's a whole separate bunch of issues.) In the real world, for it to be any more than a way for a stupid rich person to give away some of their money, you need enough people buying tickets to at least pay for the prize. To make high value prizes worthwhile, you need a lot of people (to mathematically cover the cost of the prize when payouts do happen) and negligible odds (so that winners are rare enough to not overdraw the pool). So "realistically" speaking, what would happen most of the time is an adventurer would fork over a gold piece, and get nothing for their troubles.

#4: Ultimately, if you want to gamble, pure chance is boring to play out in a game. Sigil could have a lottery; they have the magic to protect their machines, they have the population density, and they have enforcement mechanisms if things go south. I just don't see someone picking balls out of a machine being nearly as fun as racing, gladiatorial arenas, or any of the other countless things that people could bet on instead.

[Bronk]

I too don't normally think of lotteries as being a dnd element... What if you win? Do you have to buy a dungeon and buy dragon swatters? Does the money even make it to you before being eaten by bandits? Dragon bandits? Or disintegrated by the beholder mafia? Or stolen by greedy officials before making it to the pot? I normally think of small casinos filled to the brim with countermagic, and more skill based games brimming with meaning (chess... sava... three dragon ante...)

But! There are plenty of lotteries out there in fantasy! For example... Cinderella! No money involved directly, but if you fit into a specific shoe, you get a prize!

What if you were actually just bidding on a chance to pull from a Deck of Many Things?

Then, you can have the whole thing be a magical experiment! The winner will show up and be forced to pick a card while surrounded by magically protected wizards or something...

[Florian]

So what do you think of my lottery idea?

A bad idea in a string of ever-getting-worse ideas of lately. What's up with you guy?

[Bartmanhomer]

A bad idea in a string of ever-getting-worse ideas of lately. What's up with you guy?

I don't know.

[PaucaTerrorem]

You want to run a lotto/gambling?
Bust out a Deck of Many Things.

[Goaty14]

Why not just suspend the session while the table plays Three-Dragon-Ante. I forget how it works, but it sounds like a good idea to me.

[Bavarian itP]

Just play it down.

Wager 1 cp, maximum win 500 gp. Still a huge fortune for the average commoner, but noone with sufficient divination magic should be interested in cheating.
Of course, you still need 50000/(average number of rounds till someone wins the jackpot) regular participants, which, depending on the population density and means of communication in your fantasy world, might not be that easy.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Just play it down.

Wager 1 cp, maximum win 500 gp. Still a huge fortune for the average commoner, but noone with sufficient divination magic should be interested in cheating.
Of course, you still need 50000/(average number of rounds till someone wins the jackpot) regular participants, which, depending on the population density and means of communication in your fantasy world, might not be that easy.And that's easy enough to get as a feat, since a number of feats increase your starting gold by about that much. Maybe a bit less.

[Bronk]

I don't know.

I didn't intend my post to be negative!

What I should have said was: I think it's an interesting idea, and all the comments from this page could be plot hooks that occur for the PCs to sort out while the lottery is happening.

I also like the idea that the lottery tickets are priced in copper pieces, and in fact, just like now (at least in the USA?) how we force people to buy tickets using cash, I think it would be neat to have all lottery purchases be in copper no matter what. Just, copper everywhere!

Also, another plot hook - rampaging rust monsters!

[Bartmanhomer]

I didn't intend my post to be negative!

What I should have said was: I think it's an interesting idea, and all the comments from this page could be plot hooks that occur for the PCs to sort out while the lottery is happening.

I also like the idea that the lottery tickets are priced in copper pieces, and in fact, just like now (at least in the USA?) how we force people to buy tickets using cash, I think it would be neat to have all lottery purchases be in copper no matter what. Just, copper everywhere!

Also, another plot hook - rampaging rust monsters!

No one didn't say anything about you being negative.

[InvisibleBison]

Just play it down.

Wager 1 cp, maximum win 500 gp. Still a huge fortune for the average commoner, but noone with sufficient divination magic should be interested in cheating.
Of course, you still need 50000/(average number of rounds till someone wins the jackpot) regular participants, which, depending on the population density and means of communication in your fantasy world, might not be that easy.

500 gp isn't a huge fortune for an average commoner. It's slightly more than one year's income.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Could be a money-making scam business opportunity for a party of gambling addicts up-and-coming entrepreneurs. Encourage the party to set something like this up. Of course, they'll be the ones having to find ways of preventing others from using magic to influence or predict the winning numbers, and they'll have to break the legs of calmly encourage those who try to cheat the system to stop.

Burgeoning Mafia Business opportunities, ahoy!

[Jon_Dahl]

I think that this is a great idea.

[AnimeTheCat]

specifically, what divinations could predict a series of 6 randomly selected number ranging from 0-99? I'm personally drawing a blank. If the lottery system functions in this manner there are an ungodly high number of possibilities for outcomes.

@Bartmanhomer - What is your aim for the lottery? Is it a means for creating nominally free, easy loot for the party or a player to come by? Or is it more to be a draw, plot hook, plot device, or just to add flavor to the world? Here's why I ask;

If it's a way to create easy loot for the party or a player - think about the player in question. If Gambling is their thing there are other ways to do it other than a single lump sum from single lottery. Cards, dice games, and street games can be used. Carnival games could also be used as well. Especially with Carnival games, it's very easy to protect against magic. have all of the the game hosts wear goggles, brooches, hats, or bracelets (some kind of wonderous item) of constant Detect Magic (CL 1). The item would cost about 500 to make, 1000 to buy, but would allow the worker to see if anyone playing the game was actively using magic to predict anything, then of course you have your standard carnival game tricks to bamboozle the population. Can end up being a fun experience for the whole party and serve as a way to get some plot hooks going.

Is it supposed to be a draw, plot hook, plot device? If yes, it doesn't matter how, mechanically, it works. What matters is that it serves its purpose. If it works, it works. Some heist that the party wants to pull off, some defence against heists the magistrate wants to hire the party to for, some nefarious blood coins that will curse anyone who participates in the lottery, you name it. If it drives your plot, do it.

A flavorful addition to the game? just leave it a flavor and don't go too in depth. One way you can do this is by making it such a low prize an adventurer probably wouldn't be interested. For example, have each ticket cost 2 copper to fill out and enter. very low cost, but that means that for every ticket sold, the pot only increses by 1 copper (it would take 100 tickets just to equal 1 gold). Then calculate how much a single commoner 1 makes in a day (without a profession skill... 1 silver a day, or 10 copper, usually to support a family. a loaf of bread is 2 copper and a hunk of meat is 3 silver. Almost half of a full week's pay is spent on a hunk of meat and a couple loaves of bread. a poor meal is 1 silver alone. Most commoners subsist off the land to primarily support their family (i tend to lean towards one parent or working age child or adult works the land, the rest work in other jobs). This doesn't really leave much for the commoner to spend money on, maybe one ticket a week (2 if they're lucky). But it's for a chance to win a year's worth of money (depending on city size). By making the payout undesirable to most wizards or higher paid adventurers, there's sort of an innate defense against magical tampering (maybe not against governmental tampering...). In a randomly generated village (population 500) that I created for a game, I came up with 1 level 10 commoner, 2 level 5 commoners, 4 level 2 commoners, and 447 level 1 commoners. If every commoner buys one ticket every week at 2 copper per ticket, each week the pot would be 454 copper (4 gold, 5 silver, 4 copper) That is nearly a full year's worth of wages for a commoner, but it is such an insignificant amount of money for a player or adventurer (or guard, blacksmith, or other skilled laborer) that it is laughable! What's more, if the lottery had a guaranteed winner (which it won't, there are too many possible outcomes with correctly determining the series of 6 digit ranging 1 to 99, moreso if those numbers can be in the outcome more than once) each commoner would have a measley .22% chance of winning (1 winner out of 454 contestants). This chance is lower, of course, because there isn't a guaranteed winner every week. Over the course of a year, the 454 copper pot would grow by about the same amount and would cap out at an impressive 23,608 copper, resulting in a potential winning of 236 gold, 0 silver, and 8 copper. For a commoner, they're set for life to live like kings amoung their peers. For an adventurer, that's just sad. For the 10K gold pot you were mentioning to be possible under this system, the cycle would have to be repeated for 42 YEARS! Without a single winner, and without any sort of outside interferance.

Option 3 is the safest way to include a lottery in your game, but protect it from magical intervention (in my opinion).

[Bavarian itP]

500 gp isn't a huge fortune for an average commoner. It's slightly more than one year's income.

According to the 3.5 DMG, pg. 139, a common laborer earns 1 silver peace per day. That's the baseline I was comparing to.

[InvisibleBison]

According to the 3.5 DMG, pg. 139, a common laborer earns 1 silver peace per day. That's the baseline I was comparing to.

Yeah, and that's wrong. There's nothing stopping commoners from using the Profession skill.

[the_david]

According to the 3.5 DMG, pg. 139, a common laborer earns 1 silver peace per day. That's the baseline I was comparing to.
A first level commoner with 4 ranks in profession will earn 7 gp per week on average.

It might work better as a plot hook. Someone started a lottery and when the day has come to draw the numbers he's gone with the money. Or someone else stole the prize money. Or the person that organizes the lottery claims that the money has been stolen. It doesn't matter that much, as long as it's a PC who won the money, and someone else took it. You could even solve the wealth by level problem with this.

In a game like this, money isn't the best prize though. What if some crazy wizard started a raffle to get rid of his unwanted magic items. You can even pay by trading your own unwanted magic items for raffle tickets. This is a bit more high end, so the win chance and the price of a raffle ticket should be higher. Maybe the wizard is looking for a specific magic item and he hopes someone just gives it to him in exchange for raffle tickets. Or you could use the previous plot hook and have someone stealthe magic items. Oooh, what if the so called magic items where never magical at all?

You could do so much with this plot hook.

[Bavarian itP]

Yeah, and that's wrong. There's nothing stopping commoners from using the Profession skill.

If the average income in your fantasy world is higher, my suggestion might not work or need to be adjusted.

Obviously.

[Crake]

Yeah, and that's wrong. There's nothing stopping commoners from using the Profession skill.

While this is correct, not necessarily every commoner is going to have a profession. There are plenty of unskilled manual labour jobs in times when heavy machinery didn't do the lifting, and THOSE jobs go to the average commoner. A commoner with a profession isn't the average.

[Bartmanhomer]

specifically, what divinations could predict a series of 6 randomly selected number ranging from 0-99? I'm personally drawing a blank. If the lottery system functions in this manner there are an ungodly high number of possibilities for outcomes.

@Bartmanhomer - What is your aim for the lottery? Is it a means for creating nominally free, easy loot for the party or a player to come by? Or is it more to be a draw, plot hook, plot device, or just to add flavor to the world? Here's why I ask;

If it's a way to create easy loot for the party or a player - think about the player in question. If Gambling is their thing there are other ways to do it other than a single lump sum from single lottery. Cards, dice games, and street games can be used. Carnival games could also be used as well. Especially with Carnival games, it's very easy to protect against magic. have all of the the game hosts wear goggles, brooches, hats, or bracelets (some kind of wonderous item) of constant Detect Magic (CL 1). The item would cost about 500 to make, 1000 to buy, but would allow the worker to see if anyone playing the game was actively using magic to predict anything, then of course you have your standard carnival game tricks to bamboozle the population. Can end up being a fun experience for the whole party and serve as a way to get some plot hooks going.

Is it supposed to be a draw, plot hook, plot device? If yes, it doesn't matter how, mechanically, it works. What matters is that it serves its purpose. If it works, it works. Some heist that the party wants to pull off, some defence against heists the magistrate wants to hire the party to for, some nefarious blood coins that will curse anyone who participates in the lottery, you name it. If it drives your plot, do it.

A flavorful addition to the game? just leave it a flavor and don't go too in depth. One way you can do this is by making it such a low prize an adventurer probably wouldn't be interested. For example, have each ticket cost 2 copper to fill out and enter. very low cost, but that means that for every ticket sold, the pot only increses by 1 copper (it would take 100 tickets just to equal 1 gold). Then calculate how much a single commoner 1 makes in a day (without a profession skill... 1 silver a day, or 10 copper, usually to support a family. a loaf of bread is 2 copper and a hunk of meat is 3 silver. Almost half of a full week's pay is spent on a hunk of meat and a couple loaves of bread. a poor meal is 1 silver alone. Most commoners subsist off the land to primarily support their family (i tend to lean towards one parent or working age child or adult works the land, the rest work in other jobs). This doesn't really leave much for the commoner to spend money on, maybe one ticket a week (2 if they're lucky). But it's for a chance to win a year's worth of money (depending on city size). By making the payout undesirable to most wizards or higher paid adventurers, there's sort of an innate defense against magical tampering (maybe not against governmental tampering...). In a randomly generated village (population 500) that I created for a game, I came up with 1 level 10 commoner, 2 level 5 commoners, 4 level 2 commoners, and 447 level 1 commoners. If every commoner buys one ticket every week at 2 copper per ticket, each week the pot would be 454 copper (4 gold, 5 silver, 4 copper) That is nearly a full year's worth of wages for a commoner, but it is such an insignificant amount of money for a player or adventurer (or guard, blacksmith, or other skilled laborer) that it is laughable! What's more, if the lottery had a guaranteed winner (which it won't, there are too many possible outcomes with correctly determining the series of 6 digit ranging 1 to 99, moreso if those numbers can be in the outcome more than once) each commoner would have a measley .22% chance of winning (1 winner out of 454 contestants). This chance is lower, of course, because there isn't a guaranteed winner every week. Over the course of a year, the 454 copper pot would grow by about the same amount and would cap out at an impressive 23,608 copper, resulting in a potential winning of 236 gold, 0 silver, and 8 copper. For a commoner, they're set for life to live like kings amoung their peers. For an adventurer, that's just sad. For the 10K gold pot you were mentioning to be possible under this system, the cycle would have to be repeated for 42 YEARS! Without a single winner, and without any sort of outside interferance.

Option 3 is the safest way to include a lottery in your game, but protect it from magical intervention (in my opinion).
All of the above.

[AnimeTheCat]

All of the above.

oh... then use option 3, present option 1 as a way for the party to kill time, and implemenent some heist for the party to do or foil in association with option 2. If you world has more wealthy level 1 commoners have option 3 measured out in silver instead, it's not a big deal. Either way, make it a low enough threashold that it's desirable to the party, but not to nefarious acts. This should lose its luster to higher level parties, as the amount of money should be relatively negligible to them. If it is an outrageous pot of money collected over years and years of buying tickets and donations from wealthy benefactors, make the plot hook the target for the party.

I don't see a lottery as a bad way to do any of the above, and it can vary depending on the city, when it was last won, and so much more (if it was stolen etc). Just make it make sense. There's no reason a wizard or cleric that could predict the outcome would do so for a small pot of money, but it can easily add flavor to a town, give the NPCs something to be abuzz about, or drive the party to action to stop a nefarious thief from trying to steal.

If it's your world, shape it how you want it and bend the rules to it as opposed to have the rules and try to fit your desires to those rules. Whatever decision you make, just thoroughly document it and make sure your players are aware of those rules and decisions.

[Bartmanhomer]

Way a minute I just thought of something. What if the city surrounded by an anti-magic field. It will prevent cleric and wizards from cheating. Will that work?

[AnimeTheCat]

Way a minute I just thought of something. What if the city surrounded by an anti-magic field. It will prevent cleric and wizards from cheating. Will that work?

I think that is extreme and unnecessary. It could technically work against most things, but there is a feat that allows you to cast spells in antimagic areas (something something mistra I think).

My advice is to just not worry about it. If it's your world, you control the NPCs. If you want there to be magical interferrence, then put it there as a thing the party uncovers and decides to thwart or capitalize on. If you don't want it there, just don't make that a priority of the magic users in your world. It's as simple as that.

[noob]

If the prize is too big casters will be interested by it.
But 500 GP is in fact really huge for most commoners: you can for example buy 25000 chickens with it or 500 goats.
so a lottery where the prize is 500 gp would not attract spellcasters and could have a ticket worth a few copper(if there is really many players) and so be attractive for most commoners.
It would retain most of the "getting rich" effect for normal folk and it would not break wbl if the adventurers plays it and cheat at it efficiently.