Sorcerers with more spells early on?

[Vogie]

Just watch Mike Mearl's most recent video that was largely about the Ranger for the other thread, and noticed he started it with talking about how Sorcerers have REALLY low spells known and spell slots at early levels, and he suggested just giving them an extra 1-2 spells known at the beginning, allowing them to get up to 17 spells known (instead of 15) at endgame.

I was thinking that we could instead give some additional spells known based on subclass, just like Divine Soul and Giant Soul have.

Something like:
Divine Soul - In addition to the one based on alignment, something like Shield of Faith or Sanctuary
Storm - Feather Fall & Witch Bolt. No sorcerer would probably pick it by itself, but it is useful when tied with the distant or Twin metamagics
Draconic - Absorb Elements & Cause Fear
Wild Magic - Color Spray & Chaos Bolt. Because of course it is.


UA Bloodlines:

Phoenix - Guiding Bolt, False Life
Pyromancer - Hellish Rebuke, Burning Hands
Sea - Ice Knife, Create/Destroy Water
Stone - Probably Compelled Duel plus one of the Smites


Thoughts?

[stoutstien]

It comes down if you count cantrips or not. They end up with the most I believe.

[Man_Over_Game]

It comes down if you count cantrips or not. They end up with the most I believe.

That's correct, unless you count Tome Warlock (who gets five at level 3 or seven at level 10).

[Sahe]

It comes down if you count cantrips or not. They end up with the most I believe.

Most definitely not, without counting bonus spells granted by Feats/Subclass Features/etc..

Sorcerers get 15 Spells known and 6 Cantrips for a total of 21 Spells

Compared to:
- Bards: 22 Spells, 4 Cantrips (26 total)
- Wizards: 44 Spells, 5 Cantrips (total of 49 - can prepare 25 Spells)
- Cleric/Druid who both get their full list known +4/5 Cantrips and can prepare 25 Spells as well
- Warlocks also only get 15 Spells + 4 Cantrips and those spells can only go up to fifth level. Mystic Arcanum does give them single spells for each higher level though, so they end up with a total of 23.

[JackPhoenix]

I still hold the opinion that sorcerers shouldn't have spell list and normal spellcasting in the first place.

[stoutstien]

That's correct, unless you count Tome Warlock (who gets five at level 3 or seven at level 10).
I knew there was one but i couldn't remember.
Hard to put a solid value on metamagic impact on "spells known" giving the huge flexibility it provides.
it wouldn't hurt to give them 1-2 spells know at low lvs but I don't think the class is hurting for options

[Skyblaze]

I'd say they could/should get up to the same level as Bards, 22, at most. They still cannot change any spells they have at will. At minimum give them 20.

[Skyblaze]

Most definitely not, without counting bonus spells granted by Feats/Subclass Features/etc..

Sorcerers get 15 Spells known and 6 Cantrips for a total of 21 Spells

Compared to:
- Bards: 22 Spells, 4 Cantrips (26 total)
- Wizards: 44 Spells, 5 Cantrips (total of 49 - can prepare 25 Spells)
- Cleric/Druid who both get their full list known +4/5 Cantrips and can prepare 25 Spells as well
- Warlocks also only get 15 Spells + 4 Cantrips and those spells can only go up to fifth level. Mystic Arcanum does give them single spells for each higher level though, so they end up with a total of 23.

Cleric/Druid (land) also get a free 10 spells always prepared.

[Vogie]

Most definitely not, without counting bonus spells granted by Feats/Subclass Features/etc..

Sorcerers get 15 Spells known and 6 Cantrips for a total of 21 Spells

Compared to:
- Bards: 22 Spells, 4 Cantrips (26 total)
- Wizards: 44 Spells, 5 Cantrips (total of 49 - can prepare 25 Spells)
- Cleric/Druid who both get their full list known +4/5 Cantrips and can prepare 25 Spells as well
- Warlocks also only get 15 Spells + 4 Cantrips and those spells can only go up to fifth level. Mystic Arcanum does give them single spells for each higher level though, so they end up with a total of 23.

And technically, Wizards can add more spells found to their spellbook, and Book of Ancient Shadows Tomelocks can do. So Sorcerers have literally the least known spells, even if they have the most cantrips known (and the cantrips can't be unlearned or otherwise swapped out).

[Dr. Cliché]

I still hold the opinion that sorcerers shouldn't have spell list and normal spellcasting in the first place.

What would you have instead?

[Vogie]

What would you have instead?

I assume they're in the "Spell Points and Thematic Focus" camp, kind of like a Spheres of Power approach to spellcasting.

Which is fine, if they were posting their ideas on the Homebrew forum to create, but not in any way related to the OP.

[Trustypeaches]

I think it'd be nice if Sorcerers either had +(CHA modifier) number of spells known or had a list of Origin Spells like Cleric Domains.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's a good idea--Sorcerers really hurt for spells known, and making the bloodlines a bit more meaningful would be nice. I personally let them use the Bard's progression.